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Something is Rotten in Blogmark

by: Maryscott O'Connor

Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 11:38:09 AM PDT




Sometimes I am embarrassed to call myself a member of DKos.

This is one of those times.

There is a sort of groupthink, Lord of the Flies kind of behaviour at DKos over certain issues that absolutely makes me nauseated.

The great irony for me is that, at one time, for a long time, in fact, I was one of the people who behaved like that. I was a ringleader of "Shut Your Fucking Pie Hole" orange shirts, especially with regard to anything to do with Kerry and his abysmal campaign. I would not countenance criticism of the candidate -- to the extent that I led a group of DKos villagers around carrying virtual torches, stamping out dissent wherever we found it.

That I long ago changed my ways and my opinions, apologised repeatedly and have, I hope, made amends for my reprehensible behaviour, does nothing to mitigate the ironic nausea I experience now, when I encounter people behaving much as I did back then.

The diary in question is civil, respectful and well-thought out. There is nothing offensive about it. There are no accusations, no undocumented claims. It is a sensible approach to the issue, which WILL NOT GO AWAY simply because some people don't think Markos should be held to the standards that he WILL, ultimately, BE held to.

I'm sorry, but if you run a political website and if you have clout that results in lots of people following your lead and sending donations, if your endorsement translates to positive cash flow and footwork for candiates or causes by a large contingent of your website's membership, then you MUST be transparent. You MUST, or you begin to lose credibility -- or, put another way, there begins to be the "appearance of impropriety," no matter how benign and blameless you may actually BE.




Maryscott O'Connor :: Something is Rotten in Blogmark



Increasingly, I have begun to feel intimidated or wary about writing my thoughts and doubts about these issues, lest I be set upon by a pack of Defenders of the Kos. It is this sense of intimidation that spurs me to write this, among other reasons: when I start censoring myself because I'm afraid I'll be punished with disapproval, anyone's disapproval, I know I'm allowing others' opinions to matter too much to me. I shouldn't be deciding what to say and not to say online based on any anticipated reaction.

I know Markos Moulitsas personally. I consider him, if not a friend, certainly a warm acquaintance. And NOTHING I am saying here is REMOTELY accusatory of him. I AM, however, accusing many who would "defend" him, of being overzealous to the point of rabidity.

Some may remember back in the day, when the "Cult of MSOC" would follow me around, loudly defending me to my detractors, ganging up on anyone who had anything negative or critical to say about me, burying them in troll ratings. Some may remember still how I PLED with those people not to troll rate on my behalf, because it did nothing to help me. It did, in fact, make my row more difficult to hoe, because in addition to all the OTHER crap thrown at me, I also had to deal with accusations of having a... Cult of MSOC.

God forbid, I ever reach the sort of heights Markos has reached, and people behave this way in some sort of attempt to "defend" me. It's appalling, it's embarrassing and it's just plain wrongheaded.

Look, I have my opinions about the Big Boys of Blogging: for the most part, I think they're doing the best they can, and that their motives are benign. Some of them are more into the money and power thing, and that's fine -- it's their business, it's their thing. It's not mine... but then, of course, saying that is like turning down a Cadillac when no one's even offering me a used Rabbit, you know?

Who the hell knows WHAT I'd do if faced with the chance to make a pile of dough by keeping my mouth shut and/or speaking words not necessarily my own. NOT that I think that's what's happening with the BBB. Frankly, I think they've lucked into a happy coincidence, in that they happen to agree with the very elements of the political community that have hooked up with them.

However, there have been some dissonant chords here and there. The example that comes to mind: The Paul Hackett Affair.

I was bowled over when Markos mentioned Paul Hackett in his keynote speech at YKos as an example of the power of the "netroots" -- not least because when Rahm Emanuel et al threw Hackett under the bus, Markos almost immediately declared that while he was loath to say it, Brown stood a far better chance at winning than did Hackett -- mostly because Brown had the support of the powers that be in the Democratic Party.

Markos's explanation for switching allegiances from Hackett to Brown seemed, frankly,  a strange rationale, being that Hackett could have been the ultimate test case for the "Crashing the Gates" experiment. Still,  it wasn't altogether shocking that Markos decide to support Brown's candidacy, given that his friend Jerome once consulted for Brown (just as it isn't surprising that Markos now gives Mark warner the benefit of the doubt, given Jerome's position with the Warner campaign; why people profess shock at this is beyond me - if one of my best friends worked for a pol, I'd be inclined to look with different eyes at said pol), especially once it was clear Hackett was to be thoroughly abandoned by the party "leadership." But I'll be clear: it was shocking. And, I still believe, the wrong decision. I read Crashing the Gates, you see. And abandoning Hackett, signing on with the candidate anointed by the DLC, seemed in complete contradiction to the ideas and ideals behind Markos's book.


But in this case, it might be a good idea for Hackett to stand down.

It pains me to say that. I think Hackett would be a far more exciting candidate -- Iraq War vet versus career politician. Outsider versus insider. New blood versus old timer. Straight talker versus the same ol'. And Hackett would offer a perspective not currently available in the Senate.

. . .

If Hackett was the only game in town, the Ohio Dem establishment (as lame as it might be) would rally behind him. In a contested primary, they'll be working against Hackett.

Finally, Hackett hasn't proven an ability to raise money. And no, the $500,000 the netroots raised for him doesn't count, because he'll need $15 million to finance a Senate race. And that would require traditional fundraising, with the kind of donor base the generate the big bucks. Again, if Hackett was the only game in town traditional Democratic donors would open up. With Brown in the game, old loyalties will come to the fore. Brown can raise the money. And he has run and won statewide before.

. . .

So why not let them fight it out in the primary? It would definitely generate a great deal of media attention and help each hone their campaign message and technique in preparation for what will be a brutal general election.

Well, because Hackett would start at a huge disadvantage (money, name ID, ground operation) vis a vis Brown that I fear it wouldn't be much of a contest.

I wanted to scream -- THIS IS YOUR CHANCE! It's a primary, for chrissakes -- isn't this why we HAVE primaries? Why not take this opportunity to test the power of the "netroots?" Why not throw our collective blogospheric weight behind the UNANOINTED one, and have a contest of wills and power between the "Establishment"/DLC -- and US? Let's fucking put our money where our keyboards are, let's have a REAL CONTEST, a goddamned true blue PRIMARY!

But it was not to be. For whatever reasons he had, Markos opted to bow to the Establishment and go down without a fight. And it wasn't my place then nor is it now to tell Markos what to do -- though I said then and I'll reiterate now, what I think he OUGHT to have done. But it ain't my sceptre, folks. In the grand blogospheric scheme of things, I'm a mere courtier.

So what does this Hackett business have to do with the post that inspired this essay of mine? Well, that depends on your point of view, I suppose -- and mine is that all these issues are interrelated. The consultancies, the Jerome Armstrong "scandal," the TNR kerfuffle -- all these things are cropping up because the power of the blogosphere is undeniable and will NOT go away. So what we see is a bizarre confluence of simultaneous attempts to assimilate the blogs (vis a vis Mark Warner and his "courting" us at YKos) and destroy -- or at least significantly reduce -- their influence and power (vis a vis TNR, scandals, accusations and the appearance of impropriety).

It's not going to go away. The questions will continue to be asked. And, in my view,  the worst possible approach is to respond to the questions with the kind of ludicrous defensiveness and childish displays in the aforementioned diary (at one point people were adding scatological and absurdly offensive tags to the diary itself).

This is what happens when you crash the gates. All of a sudden, you're not just a pajama-clad kid in his parents' basement; once you've demonstrated your power and influence, people start demanding accountability and transparency. They want to know, for instance, that you aren't pushing a candidate MERELY because  you (or your friends) have been paid by that candidate to do so. It LOOKS bad if you haven't made it CRYSTAL CLEAR that this isn't the case.

(And by "made it crystal clear," I do not mean issuing denials or statements. I mean putting the evidence and the proof of your "innocence" out on the table, so that further speculation is irrelevant. We are no longer on the outside, where merely issuing a denial of an accusation is going to cut it. That's the difference between being outside the gates and inside them.)

There have been a couple of highly dubious, but tenacious, mini-scandals floating around the Internets for the past several weeks, relating to Jerome Armstrong and, by extension, Markos Moulitsas. One has to do with a certain SEC ruling and Armstrong.

The closest thing I've found to the whole story about Jerome and the SEC is a diary by Steven D:


Specifically, he was charged with promoting the purchase of Bluepoint shares in various internet chat rooms and forums without disclosing the fact that he had been compensated for touting Bluepoint as a good investment (it was claimed he received shares in 3 other companies from the other defendants at below market prices).

. . .

In his one page answer to the SEC complaint, Jerome denied all the allegations made against him.

. . .

On August 29, 2003, Jerome essentially caved in. He entered into a consent agreement whereby he agreed not to contest the allegations of stock touting, and agreed to a permanent injunction that would ban him from ever touting stocks in the future. He also agreed not to make any public statements denying any of the allegations the SEC had made against him in the complaint, except as required when giving testimony under oath.

That last paragraph explains why Jerome has not said anything in reply to the swirling scandal online about this 3 year old issue. Unfortunately for Jerome and, by extension, Markos, even the allegation of this sort of behaviour bodes ill; especially given the schematic is virtually identical -- pushing a product (client) while being paid to do it, and PERHAPS not fully disclosing the fact that you have a financial stake in it.

For Jerome, it will take a long time building credibility to make it go away. Wishing will not make it so; attacking the credibility and motive of anyone who brings it up will not make it go away. At this time, Jerome is a paid consultant; Markos is not. However, they are friends, and it will take a concerted effort to AVOID the appearance of impropriety on Markos's part, especially. The accusations are PROBABLY baseless (I know I don't believe them); but the fact remains that if someone wants to plant seeds of doubt, to stir up rumours, it isn't that hard to do with this situation. I've seen it repeatedly -- and not just at the right wing smear sites.

The fact that there are few FEC regulations regarding internet fundraising, political consultancy and blogging may well turn out to be an Achilles's heel for those of us who operate at ANY level of political blogging, regardless of ideology.

Which brings me back to the diary that inspired this: do people actually think that loudly and viciously attacking the questioners will make the questions go away? Is DKos supposed to remain a Doubt Free Bubble, where the big bad world and its realities are to be ignored when they do not fit a certain Fairy Tale outlook we wish to maintain about our "home?"

Here is how I approach such circumstances: I reverse the ideology of the main players. How would I react if this involved a right wing cast of characters? If I cannot apply the same standards to myself as I do to them, then I have a big problem, because I HATE hypocrisy. HATE it.

I'm no saint. My personal behaviour in many circumstances, not only in the past but right now, as we speak, has often been reprehensible. For example: I'm often guilty of the hypocrisy I loathe. But when I am confronted with it, I do my level best to correct the situation. If I am guilty of applying a double standard, I want to alter my course.

So what's my point? I am not demanding accountability of Markos or Jerome or anyone else in this bizarre reality into which we in the blogosphere have stumbled, though I think I may have made a good case for the NEED of that accountability, strictly in terms of credibility.

So what do I want, why am I writing this?

I want to be able to open up someone's well-written diary that brings up issues which make me uncomfortable, makes others uncomfortable -- and read a levelheaded discussion thereof; perhaps passionate but still rational. I want to be able to declare myself a full-fledged member of the community of Daily Kos without having to QUALIFY that declaration.

I want to stop cringing in embarrassment -- for DKos, for myself --every time I read a discussion of a hot button topic where the diarist falls into the minority opinion.

I don't know if it's simply a case of inevitability, being that the site has grown so large as to make this an irreversible trend.

I hope not.




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Crossposted at DKos -- recommend if you can bear the thought. (10.60 / 15)

DKOS VERSION

My opening comment there, in the interest of full disclosure:


I suppose you could call this a meta-diary;

god knows it could apply to more than this particular case. The kneejerk tendency of many to declare someone a "troll" merely because that person has issued an opinion the others find repellent -- it's gotten worse, not better, since the binary rating system was put in place. Sometimes it's the right reaction -- more often, I'm finding, people are launching their vitriolic accusations because they find the subject matter distasteful -- even when it's presented in a rational and polite manner.

Part of me wants people to recommend this diary, if only so we can have a rational discussion of the various issues I brought up here.

The other part of me wants nothing of the sort, because I anticipate anything BUT rational discourse here...

Something makes me think I have just kicked myself out of DKos. Or, at the very least, surrendered my crown.

Maye it's more like Pandora. I dunno. I know I've written my truth, and that's what really matters, but I'm REALLY not looking forward to the asskicking I'm about to get.



--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


I doubt it (0.00 / 0)
Most folks admire you for your passion over there.

And frankly, you're right on this issue. A nobody like me bitching about the issue won't have an impact, but someone like you - you may open some eyes over in the Orange Place.

Deny My Freedom
"Inconvenient truths do not go away just because they are not seen." -Al Gore


[ Parent ]
OH, YOU COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG (0.00 / 0)

Damn. Caps lock. Fuck it.

I'm trying to remain engaged over there, but frankly, I just want to walk away.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
Well (0.00 / 0)
The tide's turned now, for the most part (was busy viewing Atrios' hilarious YouTube war with Sadly, No!).

Whatever. While I think there are a couple points that could be excised for sake of trimming it down, your general thrust is right.

And the ironic thing is that, on dKos, they're reacting almost as you'd expect them to.

Deny My Freedom
"Inconvenient truths do not go away just because they are not seen." -Al Gore


[ Parent ]
I have been ordered (10.00 / 2)
by the hit squads at Kos to take more than one diary down.  I have been threatened with ‘expulsion’.  I have been told that my writings have been ‘reported to Kos’; as if he were going to pull an O’Reilly and send his acolyte division out after me.  More than one Kos member has targeted me repeatedly.  My commentary on other sites regarding this issue has also been affected; with certain people taking after me there as well.  The end result is – I post here much more often than at Kos – and I rarely even comment there.  When I do post there – I am usually roundly ignored; and always insulted by at least one commenter.  It’s sophomoric – and frankly – I have much better things to do with both my time and my talent.  That might be a touch hubristic – but there you are.

As for Markos himself – he tacitly approves of these tactics by not condemning them.  I know he’s a colleague and a friend – but he hasn’t asked people to stop that I am aware of – not as you have.  You know – I said something much like this exactly one year ago when I began blogging.  I had noticed a tendency toward blind support amongst certain Kos supporters.  I was disagreed with then: not ‘set upon’; something that happens all the time now.  Are you aware of what happened to Neil, The Ethical Werewolf when he too brought up Armstrong’s possible ethical dilemma?  Armando pummeled him – threatened him.  It was, frankly, appalling; especially as it happened at another blog – NOT Kos.  But then Armando is one of those who constantly brag that they wield great power over the liberal blogasphere – and not just at Kos.  Armando is also one of those for whom power is a weapon to be used as a cudgel.  Disagree with anything he says or does and he will use his constantly referenced ‘influence’ to smite you down.

Of course, this, along with those other rabid attack dogs and their tactics, only works if the person they are attacking feels threatened.  I don’t.  This is a virtual world.  I exist in the real one – and have done rather well in it too.  So I find it sad – because the free exchange of ideas can be exhilarating; and Kos facilitated that exchange brilliantly at one point - but I do not consider Kos or his coterie as in any way affecting me, or my writing.  I know you feel very sad to see something you loved and helped build, fracture like this.  All you can do, it seems to me you have already done.  And as for your own career within this blogging thrill-ride; don’t sell yourself short to Kos, Jerome or the rest of the ‘boys’.  I believe this can take you as high as you wish to go – and I support any decision you may make regarding career choices.  That’s how I see it, by the way – for you and for Kos – career choices.  Now - I prefer your voice to many others, my dear.  I definitely prefer it to Kos.  Why?  I’m afraid Kos comes across just like one of the beltway bandits – just as packaged and rehearsed.  The Hackett affair convinced me of that.  Add in Warner – and to me, Markos is just another politico – nothing more, nothing less.

Now – that being said – there is nothing wrong with that.  He can make his living however he wants.  And I sincerely hope he does very, very well with it.  Why not?  Just don’t offer yourself up as something other than you truly are.  That reason as to why I prefer your voice?  People call it passion – for me it comes down to whom I believe – who is telling the truth as they see it – not packaged opinions designed to elicit a response.  You do, my dear – and that’s something I can personally relate to.  I don’t have to agree with every position you take – I don’t; but I know you say what you believe.  So I listen.  I always listen to intelligent people when they speak.  Now - I am not a political writer.  I opine about it, I care about it, I want to be part of the solution – but my writing, my passion for writing goes in another direction.  I see my opinion, however – as being as valid as anyone else’s; and this is where I truly part company with the Armando’s of the world.  Do not even try and dismiss me as mensa-lite because my entire existence is not wrapped up in D.C. square footage.  You have never done that to any commenter or poster here.  So if I harbor any partiality – it is toward you and this site.  Though I have not pulled my profile from Kos – I no longer consider it somewhere I truly want to be.

Deux ex Machina


[ Parent ]
It is utterly useless (6.00 / 1)
to try to get a meaningful discussion started on certain subjects. Don't feel bad, I suspect that the majority agrees with you, but most of us have learned by now, that if you open your mouth you get pulled into a pissing match leading nowhere. So you just move on to other blogs where you can have a discussion about these subjects. 

[ Parent ]
Are there lots of hidden comments in (0.00 / 0)
the 6/27 diary? I am no TU so I can only see 30, and none of the ones there are particular heinous or particularly illustrative of your point.

Just wondering, because if someone wasn't experienced in the pack-behaviour you describe, the comments in the diary you link to do little to explain your embarrassment. Just thought I'd point that out....

Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
The author had a comment trollrated (10.00 / 2)
Too late though to undo it. So there are a few comments that are in fact hidden. Begins with this response to Armando's comment:

#
  * [new] Why so defensive? (0+ / 4-)

Trollrated by:
  Armando, AnonymousArmy, vcmvo2, KenBee

  Kos is not a consultant for ANY candidate. None. Zero. Zilch.

  I s there a conflict if there was such a consulting relationship? Well duh. Of course there is.

  But it has nothing nothing nothing to do with kos.

My diary clearly says that Kos HAS BEEN a consultant, not that he IS one.  Second, if he WAS once a consultant then it clearly does have something to do with him.

I'd happily like to read any links to Kos' posts or statements on any of these issues.  None of the detractors of this diary have yet provided any but they've provided lots of mouth.  Bravo, you know how to insult people plus vandalize the diary's tags.  Good for you, Boadicea.

Back to Kos, has he said he doesn't intend to do future consulting?  If not--and he does decide to do such consulting how will he deal w. the conflict?

And finally, even if Kos is blameless what about the rest of the political blog world?  Is there no reason for anyone else who blogs--& who is or may become a consultant to consider these issues?

You guys are so defensive you don't concede anything to someone who's trying to raise what I feel are legitimate questions.

  Diarist, delete this diary and start over.

Yes sir! [snaps to and salutes]

Richard Tikun Olam: Make the World a Better Place

by richards1052 on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 12:33:22 AM PDT

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

  *
  * [new] Richards, Richards, Richards (7+ / 0-)

  Recommended by:
  peraspera, hhex65, AnonymousArmy, trashablanca, Nightprowlkitty, KenBee, condoleaser

  You just prove my point.

  My last comment to you before I break out the recipes, is go read this.

  Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

  by boadicea on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 12:48:05 AM PDT

  [ Parent | Reply to This ]
  *
  * [new] BTW, I didn't add any tags (6+ / 0-)

  Recommended by:
  Ahianne, AnonymousArmy, trashablanca, Nightprowlkitty, KenBee, mango

  So, be careful about casting those aspersions so enthusiastically, would ya?

  You're liable to get some aspersions on your shoes, and that just eats through those man-made uppers like you would not believe...

  Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

  by boadicea on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 12:55:44 AM PDT

  [ Parent | Reply to This ]
  o
  * [new] I have an aspersion problem (10+ / 0-)

  Recommended by:
  musing85, Ahianne, AnonymousArmy, joanneleon, Fabian, sbdenmon, trashablanca, Nightprowlkitty, KenBee, condoleaser

  i frequently get aspersions prescribed to me in other peoples names so people won't know about my aspersions and I'll have privacy, but then I end up keeping my aspersions all to myself and it's a serious problem.

  help me!!!

  I'm kind of stalling for time here...They told me what to say. George W Bush, 03-21-2006 10:00 EST Press Conference

  by Tamifah on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 01:16:46 AM PDT

  [ Parent | Reply to This ]
  +
  * [new] Always keep a handi-wipe near. (8+ / 0-)

  Recommended by:
  Ahianne, AnonymousArmy, Fabian, Tamifah, trashablanca, Nightprowlkitty, KenBee, condoleaser

  And Febreze.

  Aspersions stink to high heaven if not immediately treated-quite aside from the burning.

  Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

  by boadicea on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 01:23:18 AM PDT

  [ Parent | Reply to This ]
  +
  * [new] Just don't get caught (4+ / 0-)

  Recommended by:
  dft, joanneleon, trashablanca, KenBee, condoleaser

  with other people's aspersions in an airport, or you'll wind up all over the news. Just like the Limboob.

  Michael
  Musing's musings

  by musing85 on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:47:04 AM PDT

  [ Parent | Reply to This ]
  #
  * [new] allergy to Aspersions...? (3+ / 0-)

  Recommended by:
  musing85, trashablanca, KenBee

  try new, improved Tylenersions

  -8.38, -7.74 "We cannot solve today's problems using the mindset that created them." Albert Einstein

  by condoleaser on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 09:13:18 AM PDT

  [ Parent | Reply to This ]
  *
  * [new] You want to talk about it? (12+ / 0-)

  Recommended by:
  Armando, dft, overturned turtle, joanneleon, Fabian, Webster, trashablanca, KenBee, karateexplosions, mango, Silent Lurker, land of the free

  I'm a private citizen. I don't owe you shit.

  Politicians are public people who decide how to spend our money yet have to raise millions to get re-elected.

  Make every elected official wears NASCAR suits with logos of their campaign contributors. When the President has a big ENRON plastered across his chest, then you can come back and politely suggest that maybe we should come to some kind of voluntary understanding about income disclosure.

  Until then, keep your fucking hands off my tax return, bitch.

  SoCal Kossacks, Network!

  by opendna on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 12:58:28 AM PDT

  [ Parent | Reply to This ]
  o
  * [new] The visual (4+ / 0-)

  Recommended by:
  trashablanca, KenBee, Silent Lurker, land of the free

  of Congresscritters in NASCAR jumpsuits is hysterical.  And it's even more funny because I thought to myself - hey, that's not a bad idea.  I'd really like to see who is sponsoring them! 

  Great comment.

  by joanneleon on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 10:59:43 AM PDT

  [ Parent | Reply to This ]
  *
  * [new] Morkos is blameless (5+ / 0-)

  Recommended by:
  Armando, dft, trashablanca, Nightprowlkitty, KenBee

  It doesn't reflect well on you to hurl ugly accusations at Markos without bothering to research them first. You didn't even have the common decency to simply ask your questions on an open thread if you were too lazy to search for the facts yourself.

  Please delete your diary and work something more constructive.

  by peraspera on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 01:23:50 AM PDT

  [ Parent | Reply to This ]
  *
  * [new] boy, you've never met Armando, have you? (9+ / 0-)

  Recommended by:
  Armando, peraspera, dft, vcmvo2, eyama, trashablanca, Nightprowlkitty, KenBee, mango

  if you think that was defensive....

  If you'd like to read Kos statements then do a search and read them.

  Why does he need a policy on consulting if he has no intention of consulting?

  If other bloggers want to go consult, then go bug them about that. 

  You guys are so defensive you don't concede anything to someone who's trying to raise what I feel are legitimate questions.

  Defensive. Wonder why, after the past week.

  Concede anything? Why should we be conceding things to people who are unwilling to look for themselves? You don't need us to find the answers you're looking for. If you really have legitimate questions why are you unwlling to look the answers up yourself?

  You'd rather prove your moral superiority in a diary for all to see.

  Republicans say "You're on your own." Democrats say "We're in this together. "

  by Buffalo Girl on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 04:50:05 AM PDT

  [ Parent | Reply to This ]
  *
  * [new] Markos never consulted for (13+ / 0-)

  Recommended by:
  musing85, peraspera, David Boyle, SeattleLiberal, dft, vcmvo2, Fabian, Buffalo Girl, sofia, sbdenmon, trashablanca, BlueInARedState, KenBee

  Warner or Brown. Never ever.

  You are a troll. Instead of acknowledging your mistake, you whine.

  When a diary is absolutely wrong in its premise, it should be corrected or deleted. You did neither.

  Troll.

  Ok, semi-retired from blogging. Returning fulltime in December.

  by Armando on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 07:54:01 AM PDT

  [ Parent | Reply to This ]



[ Parent ]
yike. guess i should have mentioned (7.00 / 1)
that I had no desire to actually SEE the comments....I was just asking Maryscott a question and pointing out my observation.

Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
Indeed (9.00 / 3)
Those comments hold up quite well and make MArycott's diary ridiculous.

I am the opposite of embarrassed about this one -- I am quite proud of it-

You are a troll. Instead of acknowledging your mistake, you whine.

When a diary is absolutely wrong in its premise, it should be corrected or deleted. You did neither.

  Troll.

I was not Groupthink that led m to make that comment and I defy Maryscott to find fault with it.


[ Parent ]
Bloggers are not cows.... (0.00 / 0)
is more to the point. If there is or was  a time that with Kos being a consultant for a politician, why not make that point public. 

Numerous people are being banned or not allowed to post because there comments are not in "lock step" with the "vanguard" of bloggers over there. Does this banning have something to do with ties being developed by the owner of that blog? 



Censure Bush to protect the American way of life


[ Parent ]
I still no nothing of the Armando story? n/t (0.00 / 0)


It is only the giving that makes us what [who] we are. - Ian Anderson. Jethro Tull . . . Betsy
BeThink.org


[ Parent ]
Thanks, Eugene for rescusing my trolled comment... (2.25 / 4)
And for retrieving all the other hateful shit that followed it.  It just shows those jackasses for who they really are.  I have half a mind to repost the entire thing back on my diary so everyone can see it once again (unless they want to troll rate it again).

Richard Silverstein Tikun Olam

[ Parent ]
*delurks muchly* (0.00 / 0)
o.o

Okaaaay.  Note to self, no delurking over at DKos.



"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid." --Basil King

StealthBadger.net: My surly little home...



[ Parent ]
Don't worry, Maryscott! Nobody's perfect. Everybody gets out of line(if that's what you want to call it) once in awhile. (6.00 / 1)
IMO, you have nothing to apologize for at all.  As I've stated before, this forum, as tense as  it can get at times, is extraordinarily tame compared with many, if not most other forums.  Not to seem like I'm denigrating another forum, but, frankly, the few brief visits that I've made to DKos have given me the impression that  that is a blog that brooks ABSOLUTELY NO DISSENT WHATSOEVER, and that they're just about as bad as the right, in that respect.  I'm also aware that many of my opinions would get me troll-rated, if not  banned outright from DKos.  At the same time, however, my opinions are not accepted on the RIGHT-wing blogs, either.

Anyway, Maryscott, DON'T sell yourself short.  You're doing a terrific job!!!  Keep up the good work!

Ahhhh....Life goes on.


[ Parent ]
Your impression is mistaken (9.67 / 3)
Will you be expected to defend your statements? Yes.

Will there be posters who get downright unpleasant? Yes. Occasionally I am accused of being one of them, though I've not lost any sleep over something I've posted at Dkos.

Is there a "cult of Kos"?  If there is, it has to compete with the Cult of Armando, Cult of MSOC, Cult of Georgia10,and my favorite, Cult of Budhydharma among others.  The community has close to 100k members, not all of whom approach the rest of the community with goodwill.  One of the problems on the left imo is the willingness to let those taking point get torn down without backing them up.

I don't plan on letting that happen if I can help it.

I've argued with Kos.  I've argued with Armando. Before this I don't think I've argued with Maryscott.

And I'll defend any of them just as vigorously as I've fought with them.

The example you chose, MS, is a bad one. It doesn't support your larger thesis, because that diarist was regurgitating the anti-Kos meme without any new material to refute Kos' own statements that he is not a consultant outright.

It would have been a mistake not to respond to it as strongly as possible.

Basically, the meta stuff that's happening as a result of the attacks on Kos simply make future attacks on Kos, on Jane Hamsher, on you, on every other blogger that starts to achieve prominence in the traditional media venues more likely.

And, no, that's not a suggestion that you shouldn't post what you want to post here or on Dkos. 

Legitimate criticisms are absolutely necessary. Smears need to be squelched. And claiming undue influence because of friendship is a smear. Nothing less.



Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.


[ Parent ]
All I would say in reply (0.00 / 0)
Is that we're going to get these attacks anyway, and I'm not sure there's much we can do to prevent them from happening. The wingnuts and their TNR lackeys will continue to attack so long as we gain power and prominence.

That being said, I do believe you are absolutely right about us not doing a good enough job of defending those who "take the point" as you say. Too often we see conflict and take a "pox on both your houses" approach which implicity equates the person fighting back with the person making the attack.


[ Parent ]
We are sure to get these attacks (9.00 / 1)
And in the short run certainly they are not preventable.

The only thing that will stop them is for them to stop working, and I'm not completely certain how to make that effective.

However, I do believe that a swift and strong response-not necessarily a rebuttal, because that lends credence to the idea that there's an argument to be made-is absolutely the first line of defense.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.


[ Parent ]
Totally agreed (9.00 / 1)
We all should learn from Kerry's example of what happens when you let swiftboating go unanswered.

[ Parent ]
You wouldn't know that this civil comment was written by (1.00 / 1)
the same Boadicea who told me to "blow it out my ass" in the comments section of the diary Maryscott writes about.  Isn't it interesting how he can treat Maryscott with respect and treat me in such a foul manner?

And your charge that I was "regurgitating the anti-Kos meme without any new material to refute Kos' own statements that he is not a consultant outright" is false.  I pointedly wrote that I was not attacking Kos but merely raising issues all of us should be thinking about who are political bloggers.  You were seeing red because of other attacks on Kos & just assumed mine was the same old shit.  But it wasn't which just proves how mean-spirited you are & what a poor reader to boot.

And so OK, perhaps you weren't the one who vandalized the tags.  But you did suggest that I should add a tag that was deeply insulting to me.  I don't know which is worse.  And the fact is that one of those comment slobs did vandalize the tags & that only proves Maryscott's point here about the sorry tone & level of discourse at DKos.  And you are part of the problem (but of course won't recognize that).

Richard Silverstein Tikun Olam


[ Parent ]
Not precisely what I said (0.00 / 0)
To wit:

You're missing a tag (4+ / 0-)

"Things blown out of my butt about which I am completely, utterly clueless".

Fix that, would you?

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

by boadicea on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 01:51:30 AM CDT

[ Reply to This ]

You can dish out the insults and insinuations freely, but you can't even stand a little heat coming back at you.

I'll be clear. I stand by everything I said about you above. I believe your argument was, if not deliberately deceptive, extremely lazy.

But at least we know what to expect from you. Happy to spread manure, then whining about shit getting on your shoes.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.


[ Parent ]
Yes, that was quite a load you dumped on my shoes (0.00 / 0)
Happy to spread manure, then whining about shit getting on your shoes.

That's the problem with defenders of the Kos like you at that site--why haven't you been house-trained?  Next time deposit it somewhere else than on my shoes.  And don't be surprised if folks like me & others here who took offense don't like it & tell you so in no uncertain terms.

Oh & I can see that all that excellent prose that MSOC wrote trying to explain the issue to you went completely over yr head.  Too bad but expected alas.

Richard Silverstein Tikun Olam


[ Parent ]
Did you correct your blog? (0.00 / 0)
Or are you still accusing me of tagging your diary with the "troll" label and referring to me as a man?

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

[ Parent ]
A zillion comments over there... (0.00 / 0)
...but I did recommend it, and enthusiastically, believe me. The DailyKos situation is fucked because Kos's talent is a lot more mature than his brain.

I think that what it all really comes down to is that the guy has a nice business there with his online success machine and he acts like a typical self-made man. That is to say, he's The Boss, and if you don't like it -- I repeat myself here -- then, altogether now, groupies -- "DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YOU IN THE ASS ON THE WAY OUT."

That's boss-talk. That's Markos Moulitsas Zuñiga. DailyKos has always been based on the cult of personality. Now that it's turning a profit and exercising power and getting REALLY REALLY BIG, it brings out the worst in him and his claque.

The People's Republic of Moronia--If it ain't fixed, don't broke it.


[ Parent ]
"online success machine"? 'Yer right! (0.00 / 0)
More power to him, I say.  But, like any kid with a successful garage band, the "success" gets ahead of ANYONE's ability to control it.  Don't get too personal about it, it IS a 'machine', as you say, and probably out of Markos' ability to over-determine our response to his measly, human effort to direct it in a good channel that ALL OF US would do, in detail, had WE the opportunity.

[ Parent ]
maybe someone shoud send him a copy (0.00 / 0)
of good to great...

Censure Bush to protect the American way of life

[ Parent ]
Nobody Does Impolitic Like You Do, MSOC (0.00 / 0)
You're the top-rated diary at the moment, I notice.

Oh. And here at MyLeftWing, too! :)

Seriously

As a general rule, I tend to be studiously disinterested in the infrastructure that gives me a chance to broadcast my own peculiar ponderings.

You make a strong case that none of us are unaffected by the answers to the questions that you raise.


[ Parent ]
As the author of the DKos diary to whose defense Maryscott has come... (2.00 / 1)
I want to say how deeply grateful I am to her for this thought-provoking post.  Of course, you've articulated the essence of my original DKos diary much better than I could have since you've been so much more intimately & intensively involved at the site.

In addition, thanks to your post here, my diary entry has gotten a whole new lease on life at DKos.  The 25 or so vitriolic commenters who first posted about my diary have been balanced by another 30 or more thougtful comments.  Even those critical of me are respectful.  So thank you Maryscott.  You're wonderful (sorry, if this embarrasses you).

In the entire three yrs. I've been blogging, I've rarely if ever been more proud of my fellow progressives than this time.  Maryscott "got" my diary AND she got the meta issues that relate to the behavior of some of the more unsavory characters who frequent the bowels of the Kos world.  I couldn't have asked for more.

After I first published my diary & read the disgusting crap written about me I felt so incredibly depressed.  I wondered whether the diary was the "piece of shit" which the commenters were making it out to be.  It really hit my self-esteem buttons.  But after reading Maryscott's post here I realize that the issue I brought up is real and needs to be addressed more seriously than it has up to this point.  I thank her and all the other commenters who're going to raise the visibility of this issue in the progressive blog world.

Richard Silverstein Tikun Olam


[ Parent ]
Armando troll-rated me for joshing him! (0.00 / 0)
[new] Oh, so sad. (5+ / 1-)
Recommended by: Roastbeef, mcolley, Deward Hastings, zinger99, Do Tell; Trollrated by: Armando

His feelings are hurt. He's disappointed.

Where are the pie girls when we need them?

by Jules Siegel on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 06:13:22 PM CDT

Five others recommended the comment. Maybe that's what got him mad. Pathetic.

The People's Republic of Moronia--If it ain't fixed, don't broke it.


[ Parent ]
The Troll Inquistions (5.50 / 2)
During my brief tenure as a poster at DK the thing that I did not find admirable at all were the trigger happy 'Troll Police' who enforced an ultra-nasty frontier style form of 'justice' with the fiery fanatical relish of a drunken lynch mob.

Look, people do piss others off with their opinions and some of those opinions may be offensive but that is no excuse to delete responses and hide replies in order to quash dissent.

Sorry to vent here but I was banished without being able to mount any sort of a defense to my comments or actions after I was forced to drop a daisy cutter to counterattack the rampaging hordes.

The attacks are so vitriolic and unnecessary over there that it is damned near Republican.

Hannity and Kos?

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


there's definitely an 'in-group' kind of thing, (0.00 / 0)
What would have been called a 'clique' in high school
(We didn't have cliques when I graduated- because there were only 7 of us graduating, and we were each kings, big men on campus...)

Yeah, I've noticed some ganging up if you use the wrong words, sympathize with the wrong people, hold the non-popular opinions. Suddenly someone will be yelling at you to delete your diary, and won't give up, sort of like a terrier biting the pants-leg; but it feels sort of, what can I say, STRANGE... like you've violated a law that only the inner circle knows...

As you know, because you recommended it, I had a diary that ended up getting 205 comments, and didn't even make the 'rescued list'. I have to admit that I love to push especially sensitive buttons HARD, because I INSIST that something be discussed. And I also admit that the world of blogging with all its 'troll rating' and all is a little impenetrable to me.

Frankly, I come here with more pleasure than there; and I always remember Milton's quote, which I will paraphrase;

"I would rather enjoy myself on MLW than be troll-rated at DKos"


we have the same there here, horrible (0.00 / 0)
albeit on a milder scale, in that there are not the "delete this diary", "troll rate this comment" pleas -- but there is are some DEFINATE "in-groups" here (they are multiple, but ossifing), and a certain degree of pile-on activity  -- I think there is still hope that MLW won't turn into the same kind of place as dKos, but the larger issue that MSOC is trying to speak to here happens here as well. As it does at BMT, and other places. It's a matter of scale, but the underlying issues are the same.

Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
What is BMT? (0.00 / 0)
and what is ossifing?

Just asking (Respectfully!)


[ Parent ]
Oh, and by the way... (0.00 / 0)
It's MR horrible to you! (Snark)

[ Parent ]
mrhorrible (pardon!! *grin*): BMT is (0.00 / 0)
Booman Tribune a scoop site started by kossack Booman23.

Ossifying:
to ossify:
v. intr.

1. To change into bone; become bony.
2. To become set in a rigidly conventional pattern: “The central ideas of liberalism have ossified” (Jeffrey Hart).

v. tr.

1. To convert (a membrane or cartilage, for example) into bone.
2. To mold into a rigidly conventional pattern.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Latin os, oss-, bone; see ost- in Indo-European Roots + -fy.]
------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is definition #2 that I am using here -- though #1 is metaphorically appropriate at well....

Hope that helps!
;)

Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
community (4.50 / 2)
Blogs seem to develop a personality. Dkos is people who want to get a certain flavor of Democrat elected, for example.

There are others (like me) who agree with their general aims, but hitchhike on the site as a way to discuss issues that I think are germane, like economics and resource depletion. The infighting and candidate pimping is something I mostly ignore.

So, my unbidden advice for MSOC is, keep your meta-diaries about dKos on dKos (you can cite them here if you wish, of course), and focus on what you really think is important on this site.

A focused smaller group of thoughtful people will have more influence than an unruly mob.

What people don't understand is that moving from the media (including blogs) into politics and back again has been the norm since PR was invented. Why should the latest to enter the arena be any different. Bill Moyers was LBJ's press secretary, Stephanopolous worked on Clinton's campaign, etc.

If someone is taking money from a political source and is also blogging then they should disclose this, if only to ensure that people reading their postings not be disillusioned later. I don't even see any reason to stop blogging as long as their employers don't mind. Passionate, biased writing is healthy and promotes debate and, hopefully, the occasional fresh idea.

Just my 2 cents...

----Policies not Politics
Daily Quiet Image


Just unrecommend this fucking thing (0.00 / 0)

Christ.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

sorry... I tend to (9.00 / 1)
Jump into the fray with sword an'shield... must be past-life stuff!

(Oh-oh! my hippie roots are showing...)

Anyway, I unabashedly recommended.

And by the way, I'm not alone in saying... I've got your back!


[ Parent ]
No way! (7.00 / 1)
I mean, granted, I can't read much of it past 100 comments at home, but I thought it took a well-considered "long-view" of things.

Although I barely know what when on in many of the "relevant" diaries (for same toomanycomment reasons), I am astounded that the concept of the "Purity troll" actually exists, and that there are incredibly nuanced discussions re: "the theory and practice of trollery" It's like a bunch of old guys sitting around at the Vatican discussing feamle sexuality.


[ Parent ]
whoops! (0.00 / 0)
"female"

I do look forward to all the response diaries in the weeks to follow, and hope they will keep with the titular themes, or at least channel them through Faulkner:

The Sound and the Fury

As I Lie Blogging

Lamblet's Question


[ Parent ]
not to mention the irony (0.00 / 0)
about people piling on unpopular opinions and then smugly denouncing them on grounds of being obsessed with purity.

they doth protest too much IMO.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat


[ Parent ]
Not to mention... (0.00 / 0)

...people (like me, unfortunately) who adamantly proclaim complete apathy to the recurring situation and log numerous posts to express that apathy.

[ Parent ]
The Mob Mentality (5.00 / 3)
It's pretty sad that there is less tolerance for true independents and individual thought anymore. My DK debacle is perfect evidence of that, it's like Dylan once sang in what in retrospect was a far saner time than the madness of the post 9/11 world:

The Titanic sails at dawn...And everybody's shouting, "Which Side Are You On?"

In the last week I have gotten booted from KOS, received death threats from neo-Nazis, had my comments seized on by right-wingers as material for a smear campaign against DK and been vilified by very angry people on both the left and the right who have jammed my inbox telling me that they hate me in a very rare showing of true bipartisanship.

I am coming to the conclusion that society just hates individualism.

Even more than we hate each other.

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


I am coming to the conclusion that society just hates individualism. (0.00 / 0)
you only just noticed now?

[ Parent ]
"The nail that protrudes gets hammered down" (9.00 / 2)
Old Japanese proverb

[ Parent ]
Since being banned... (9.00 / 1)
...from Kos a couple of months ago for warning that there will probably not be an election this year, the only time I go there now is when someone recomends a diary there on another blog. There are enough star bellied sneetches in the party, thank you. Glad I missed the latest snootfest.

50 Ways to Dump the Dubya



'Tin Foil Hat' Phobia (9.00 / 1)
They are also afraid of being affixed with the dreaded 'tin foil hatter' label that they immediately censor any comments that relate to Deep Politics (thanks to Peter Dale Scott for that term) which is that there are always illicit and duplicitous activities going on in the background.

Therefore posts on election rigging, market fixing, drug running, JFK, the PNAC or any questioning of official explanations gets your ass run in a New York second from DK even if you have links to back it up from official reports.

I guess that for many that it's better to remain an Ass Ostrich (my term) than a Tin Foil Hatter who dares to ask questions. 

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
tinphobia... (6.00 / 1)
Well PNAC said they needed an "New Pearl Harbor" to get The Sheeple on board for an Iraq war. If you start there, everything else falls into place very neatly.

In the event of a Democratic Congress, Henry Waxman has over 50 serious investigations pending against the Administration. It doesn't take a street musician to figure out where this is going.

BushCo is looking at serious jail time all around. And they have no intention whatever of letting that happen. This is where we are now, and we need to be ready for the obvious. Tinphobia can get people killed.

Goper's Lament (Hard To Be A Republican)


[ Parent ]
Too thinskinned for this. (2.00 / 1)


--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

You? The Warrior Queen? (0.00 / 0)
C'mon, Maryscott, we asked for an interesting life, and we have one!

Besides, It's no easier being a court musician... try putting up with emperors!

Actually, this is a very good sign. As David Bowie said

"There's no such thing as bad publicity!"


[ Parent ]
MSOC -- I am not questioning (5.33 / 3)
your motives in posting what you wrote, as I believe I understand where you are coming from and the points you're trying to make, just in re-reading the whole thing for the third time, I wonder if your choice of example might be what is the biggest cause for teeth-gnashing over there....

?

It's just a question.

I think you left yourself too wide open for the more fucked up attacks going on over there because this is one of your less laser-focused pieces -- maybe your intention was to be a little all over the place with it and see what floated up, but you expected no less than what you're getting, right?

Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
5hearts -- (6.50 / 2)

I believed at the time that I posted it that it was an appropriate marriage of topic and sub-topics.

In retrospect, certainly, I could have done a much better job. BUt after a night's sleep and further reflection, I really wouldn't change it much. It seems I have a difficult to impossible time of it, making myself absolutely clear, no matter how many UPDATES I add, you know?

And yeah, I knew what I was in for. Knowing it and experiencing it, regardless of how often I've gone through it in the past, are vastly different things. You KNOW it will hurt when you break your arm... but when it actually breaks, the gulf between "knowing" it and "feeling" it is almost unbreachable.

I'm reconciled. As always happens, in the moment, it hurt like hell, and I fucking cried like a whiny baby -- but after dinner and Pirates with Trry and Adam, and a solid night of sleep, the pain subsided, and what remained, finally, was integrity.

Because, goddamnit, I meant what I wrote. I didn't accuse anyone, and whoever thinks I DID accuse simply read it incorrectly -- and that's saying something, giving the reiterations of the fact that I don't think Markos did anything unethical, but that it isn't obvious to everyone.

So, in the final analysis -- I said what I meant and I meant what I said.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
and this, right here, is why I love you, lady (0.00 / 0)
I said what I meant and I meant what I said.

Right on. That is all I ever expect of anyone, and although it seems simple enough in my own mind, it is goddesdamned rare that people actually DO.

Solid sleep is a wonderous thing. Glad to hear you got some! ;)


Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
Gardens (9.00 / 1)
I still pass through DKos daily, but hang around here because, in no small part, we disagree without slapping each other around.

There's much this community can do Mary Scott. Perhaps, for your own peace of mind, you can help us tend this garden. No bridge-burning, just focusing on nurturing things that we are in the perfect position to nurture.

My two cents.

Never, never, never, never--in nothing, great or small, large or petty--never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense. Winston Churchill


[ Parent ]
In case my first reply on Kos got lost in the shuffle... (0.00 / 0)
...the behavior of people like Armando, who are completely intolerant of anything with which he happens to disagree (the "unproven" conspiracy theories re the Diebold scandals of '00 & '04 readily spring to mind), is more in keeping with right wing ideology than anything that MSOC wrote here. There's more than a grain of truth to what's she's written. Hell, I'm an ongoing living and breathing example of how intolerant the so-called Left is.

I've been banned from seven blogs (Democratic Underground, Media Matters, Firedoglake, Jesus's General and Democrats.org), been reinstated only twice (Crooks and Liars, Huffington Post, the only legitimate banning, in my mind), and often without a fucking word of explanation.

It's intolerant, jackbooted tactics like this and the swarming that's identical to what you see on the right, is what led me to delete my old blog (Yep, Another Goddamned Blog) last month in a fit of rage when I found out that asshole Bob Geiger had banned me from democrats.org when all I had done was agree with his moderator Carolyn Kay and provide a link to his piece of shit site.

As I told Politicky Bitch over the phone today, I ironically was unprepared to deal with the politics of political blogging. I could handle the trolls and wingnuts and never got so big and conspicuous that I became a target of the A-list right wing bloggers.

But I sure got noticed by the A-list left wing bloggers for holding unpopular views and for committing the Unholies of Unholies, whoring my blog on bigger liberal blogs.

Apparently, isolating your fellow liberal blogger so that fewer and fewer people can get access to your ideas is not a subversion of progressive liberalism or the very concept of the World Wide Web.

But I missed it. I immediately got that itch in my fingers and I realized that I am one of those virtual ink-stained wretches who's good, damned good, at what he does.

Who gives a fuck if the A-listers will make damned good and sure that I never smell up their stratospheric club house with my blue collar, homemade self?

I'd spit in George Bush's and Dick Cheney's jaundiced eyes if I ever get within twenty feet of them. Why should I give a flying fuck what some nameless, faceless blogger does to me cybernetically and targets my IP address?

But I digress.

This whole Jerome / Kos / Armando conflict of interest / Kos giving us our marching orders for the day is an overblown non-issue that never should've achieved a life of its own. But the basic level of intolerance toward the dissenting opinions of others, and this place is becoming almost as notorious for that as is Firedoglake, is getting to be more than a little troubling. Just before I'd deleted my blog, I'd made a post (and a diary here) called KosFest 2006, in which I'd concluded that we may have met the enemy and it may be us. The tactics and level of vitriol, the rampant stupidity, intolerance for the unpopular ideas of others and inability to stick to the argument at hand and the irresistible instinct to go after the jugular (ad hominems) are absolutely indistinguishable from the right.

And Armando's lightning-fast first reply to Richard's post (calling for him to delete it), however ignorant or poorly-thought-out he may've considered it, was a classic example.

Right or wrong, I'd throw my lot in with Mary Scott O'Connor anytime, anyhow, anywhere, any fucking way. She's seen the error of her old ways. A lot of A-list "liberal" bloggers who find it easier to delete, censor and ban than to answer and dissent respectfully, could learn from her.

"Because sometimes the best things to say are the things better left unsaid."


Rain Down The Brimstone Brother! (0.00 / 0)
Fucking A! What a great diatribe and how true. I refuse to drink the fucking Kool Aid no matter what flavor it is....and a bit 'Fuck You' to all of those who do.

I dig MLW, MSOC was the only one who really came to my defense when those low-minded nitwits at DK descended on me, censored me and labelled me a TROLL.

Like Clint Eastwood said in 'Hang Em High'

"when you hang a man you better be sure that he's dead"

I invite all of you fuckers (you know who you are) over to Station Charon if you have something to say and you have my word that I won't hide your comments or censor your asses like you choose to do rather than to engage in debate on the issues.

http://stationcharon.blogspot.com/

I am calling you fuckers out....let's see what you can do in an open forum.

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
Can I hear an Amen. (0.00 / 0)
So I guess I have to de link ya huh? What a pity. That is why I like reading Mykeru. He too has the same fuck the A-list view.

BTW the way, if you remember, what was the answer to that pun, I got wrong.

"Es mejor morir de pie, que continuar viviendo de rodillas" - Zapata


[ Parent ]
Dude (0.00 / 0)
The fact that SEVEN FUCKING BLOGS banned you says more about you than those blogs.  Those blogs are diverse places, with not too much overlap with each other, and if they all saw fit to send you into the trash can, well, maybe you deserved to be there.

I mean, seriously, how do you get banned by so many people?  And don't throw some lameass theory about A-listers hating you or being afraid of debate.  Seven blogs is some sort of record, meaning you had to work hard at it.

Between you, edencho, and arthur, I've been about ready to put a bullet through my screen.  And as I told Arthur, what a fucking waste of our time and yours this has been.  We have much better things to do.


[ Parent ]
You know me as dkmich. (0.00 / 0)
Thank you MSOC for this diary.  It gave me the opportunity I needed to say my piece about the lynching of Edencho on dkos by Armando.  The reason I am so angry about it still is because I was stupid enough to listen to him.  I gave him authority he didn't have, and I have been chewing on this ever since.  You gave me the opportunity to say my piece without ending up in dkos' troll heaven.  I absolutely agree about the persecution hysteria at dkos, and I wonder about the mental health/maturity of some of the people there.
Thank you, again, for opening the door for me.

Thanks: And A Lynching It Was! (0.00 / 0)
And thank you too.

Look, the piece that I wrote 'Peckerwood Nation' that caused this whole fiasco at least from my standpoint was admittedly over the top even for myself and although it was true in portraying a lot of the so called stereotypes it offended some really good people as well.

My biggest sin was in lumping everyone in the South in together with those bigoted yahoos who have had us all bent over a log like poor old Ned Beatty in Deliverance for the past several years and have been giving us the business without the benefit of a lubricant.

That was a tactical error on my part, quite honestly I didn't think that the fucking thing would be so controversial...it's been on my site since last August.

Anyway...I posted a disclaimer on my own site but since DK has banned me they have the original version that caused so much outrage.

Believe me I have paid for it, I have been targeted by a well-connected white supremacist group and now fear that one of those facists could show up on my doorstep as well as banished by those whom I once felt shared respect for free speech....they certainly had me fooled. 

The problem that I have in all of this is not in catching the shit, I expect that....it was in the dastardly nature of the lynching itself. My comments were hidden or censored when I tried to respond.

What the fuck is that?

Gutless! Maybe Ann Coulter can write her next book about y'all who stabbed me and others who tried to defend me in the back.

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
So your e-mail to me was insincere (0.00 / 0)
Thanks for clearing that up.

BTW, I did not lynch you, you lynched yourself.

MArkos banned you. Not me.


[ Parent ]
Boy, you sure are (11.00 / 1)
taking a personal interest in all this, Armando. You've even made a special trip over here. I thought that you were done blogging until December.

I think it's a really heartening thing that you arouse such interest in others, as well, which was proven when your professional information was sought after and disseminated for us all to enjoy, which brings us back to your decision to lie fallow until winter.

Or so we thought.

Remember, you reap what you sow. Live by the sword and all that.

"Because sometimes the best things to say are the things better left unsaid."


[ Parent ]
As I told you there (9.00 / 1)
a special trip? I happen to be an Admin here with FP privileges.

You called my comments trolling.

Talk about mindless Groupthink.


[ Parent ]
Thanks for the Clarification.... (1.00 / 2)
God forbid that Markos has a bit of the sheen knocked off of his halo.

Hey, I can understand it if he banned me but he should be man about it and let me know personally instead of letting his yappy little attack dogs like you do his dirty work.

If the piece was so offensive you never should have featured it so prominently....are you a bunch of FUCKING MORONS?

Give him my fucking email address too... or is he too good to talk to an independent and a fellow veteran?

Kingmakers only end up selling everybody else out in the process...have Markos read his fucking history.

EE

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
Markos is not your foe. (0.00 / 0)
Its a huge site, and he, unlike some others, has a life.  He has people who e-mail him with their opinions and recommebdations.  He depends on their judgement.  You got screwed over at dkos, but it wasn't by Markos. 

[ Parent ]
Don't be disingenuous (0.00 / 0)
Markos banned him based on what you told him and did.  People need a life beyond blogs and politics.  It's healthier that way.

[ Parent ]
it needed saying, maryscott (9.00 / 3)
all of it. best of luck with the slings and arrows. don't take it personally, you're speaking to the lurkers as well as those who respond.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

A breath of fresh air. . . . . (0.00 / 0)
to read this discussion. I don't know if people here are familiar with Jesse Kornbluth. . . he is a writer who has a website called Uptown Swami (besides Head Butler) and many freelance pieces. He is Jewish, but has become a Buddhist. . he writes beautifully and has done some brilliant and impassioned pieces about the corruption of Bush et al. . .but writes on a wide range of topics. . including music and art.
Anyhow his wife Karen is a registered user at DKos, and apparently she wrote a diary a few weeks ago (I don't have the link and didn't read it) making the same point as Maryscott. . .the same exact point. . .that even if there is an appearance of impropriety, Markos should clear things up. Jesse wrote about this on HuffPo. . .
said that there were over 200 comments. .and that his wife was "run over and left to die in a ditch."
Sorry I can't give you a link, but the whole episode was very disturbing. . .she was immediately accused of bring a troll. . .of "lying" about how many times she had posted before (she was off by 1 or 2) and the thing took on momentum until it started to sound like the Salem witch trials.
The woman is intelligent and reasonable and she raised a valid point.
I realize it has infected me too. . .I live in CT and even though I'll vote for Lamont I don't really think he's a great candidate. . and I have mixed feelings about Liberman. I've decided not to talk about it for now. . .it's too dangerous to have mixed feelings!
Maybe I'm just a coward. . .

Unfair (6.50 / 2)
I read and commented on her post.  She made many unfounded accusations and was appropriately called out on them.  Several posters, McJoan among them, bent over backwards to try to explain to her why her diary was pretty much simply repeating the TNR and Brooks-style smears on Markos.  She was uninterested.  Eventually even McJoan threw up her hands, after pleading with everyone not to troll rate her.

In response, she got her husband to write a smear attack on Daily Kos, cherry-picking certain comments and leaving others out.  If you find that fair, good for you.  I don't.

Perhaps you think that when someone vehemently disagrees with that kind of characterization and defends the community, they are marching to the groupthink drum.  I think you are wrong and I disagree with Maryscott's diary for the same reason.  I was a part of the discussion on the diary Maryscott used as an example of "groupthink."  I was not trying to defend Markos, who can defend himself very well, thank you.  I was defending the community from a poster who even when given evidence debunking his claims continued to press them.

Then he went on his own blog and, again, cherry picked certain comments to prove his own grievance.  Maryscott left a comment on his blog wishing she could "apologize" for all the people who had "attacked" him.

Maryscott, you haven't been thrown out of the community at Daily Kos, and you know it.  You can post there whenever you wish and no doubt your diaries will usually hit the recommended list.  Your crown is undimmed.  But this diary was, I feel, very unfair and not well thought out.  You seem to be upset (thin-skinned) about the response, but have you ever considered how the posters there feel when you accuse them (and me, as I was on the thread of the diary you used as an example) of "groupthink" and making you nauseated?  Just because you were overzealous in your early days at Daily Kos doesn't make you an authority as to why each individual poster now feels it important to protect the community, especially during a time when the attacks are beginning to come from very powerful media and political sources.

Respect works both ways.  I don't think your diary was respectful.  BooMan did a long diary criticizing Kos about the whole Warner episode.  it was well thought out and I recommended it even though I didn't agree with a lot of it.  The discussion was intense but respecful.  I wish I could have said the same about your diary.


[ Parent ]
Little kitty (3.00 / 1)
has to go around rating comments by anyone who criticizes Armando a 1 and comments by Armando a 9. An embarassing but telling foray.

[ Parent ]
That's the best you've got? (0.00 / 0)
And you are accusing me of ... what?  I happen to agree with Armando.  You have a problem with that.  It is your problem.

And you agree with the very few posts I downrated?  Says more about you than I.


[ Parent ]
P.S. (0.00 / 0)
I rated your comment as I did because I thought it was just that -- bullshit.  If you disagree with what Armando says and can prove him wrong, fine, I won't argue with you.  But that kind of ad hominem attack on his character is just plain pointless, in my opinion.  So think what you will.

[ Parent ]
Sadly, (0.00 / 0)
but tellingly, you are unable to distinguish between "ad hominem" attacks and descriptions of the behaviors that are causing distress on liberal internet community sites, and which, in my analysis, are the source of the problem this MSOC post is about -- people who we agree with politically but are assholes personally (at least as expressed through their internet communications). That's not an ad hominem attack, and the fact that you think it is sort of supports MSOC's point, with which I did not really agree, about "groupthink." Seriously, if you support bullying shut-downs of people with different or iconoclastic opinions, which is what Armando and some others at DailyKos do, you are a detriment to the goal of creating abetter society, even if the policies you support are good ones. Maybe Daily Kos needs your band of purity guardians (I don't think so but it's not up to me), but a humane democratic society does not.

[ Parent ]
Purity guardians. (11.00 / 1)
Not quite.  Daily Kos is a large community and the way it is set up provides community policing in order to keep the site from degenerating into the kind of free-for-all garbage that you see on public "chatlines" such as AOL.  It also is a political partisan site and makes no bones about it.

I stand by what I say as far as your characterizations of Armando's character being ad hominem attacks.  If he is wrong about his criticisms there are no lack of people at the site to point that out.  In my view he is rarely wrong -- and I find his particular method to be very effective, a kind of piercing of arguments that makes the reader truly examine the dialog going on and analyze it in a better way.  You disagree.  Fine, disagree.  But your characterization of him as an "asshole" is hardly helpful.  And I see no lack of hypocrisy on your own part in your demands for purity on the other side of the spectrum.


[ Parent ]
Of course (0.00 / 0)
contrary to yr alleged reading of my comment, I made no demand for purity.  I simply pointed out that there are people who 'think like us' who use interpersonal tactics that are ultimately debilitating to the goal of a better society. It's not about people being "wrong about [their] criticisms," it's about being a good citizen.  And yes, I used the word "a-hole" to describe the use of those bullying, non-good-citizen tactics.  Considering the name-calling by the DK purity guardians (not to make a point but simply to bully), yr vapors over my use of the word a-hole to make a particular point about good citizenship is laughable. And whether you stand by what you say or not, my comment was not an ad hominem attack. You are apparently confused about the meaning of that term, and/or are the kind of person who cannot admit they were wrong, which, in my mind at least, explains yr very Bush-like "You disagree. Fine, disagree" conclusion.

[ Parent ]
Never said you used the word purity (9.00 / 1)
Only stated that your requirements for community are as purity-oriented as you are decrying in others.

As for the rest of your post -- personal insults as to my intelligence and character -- do you like that better than using the word ad hominem?  Not much else to respond to.


[ Parent ]
You sound surprisingly rational (10.00 / 2)

for a troll-rater and supporter of Armando. (Or am I just repeating myself? Maybe...) Your syntax is good, and so is your grammar. So I am going to treat you like a reasoning human being. You are probably just a lawyer, but I will ignore that probability and speak to you as if you are capable of common sense as well.

You say:

"I read and commented on (MSOC'S) post.  She made many unfounded accusations and was appropriately called out on them. "

Please post, in a rational manner, these "many unfounded accusations." I just read the diary, and I fail to see ANY "accusations".

Compact Oxford English Dictionary

accusation

  • noun a charge or claim that someone has done something illegal or wrong.

In common American usage when combined with the word "unfounded" this word has become lawyerese for "false charges" in the legal, criminal sense. One step this side of "unfounded allegations", a phrase usually spoken in an improptu press conference held on the steps of a courthouse by a gaggle of defending counselors.

She DID say that Markos and his colleagues had taken some actions that were "wrong." TACTICALLY wrong. Actions that have hurt the causes for which they are ostensibly fighting. But that would not fall under the general rubric of "unfounded accusations." AND she made her point well...there goes the "unfounded" part (unfounded • adjective having no foundation or basis in fact.) because in point of fact both Armando and Jerome Armstrong have engaged in activities that (along with their powerful presences on the most important blogworld entity) call their honesty and sincerity into question. Note well that I did not say that they had done anything illegal, because of course I do not know whether they did or not. It is their chosen position in life that allows these questions to be raised. If they were public school teachers or housewives or scuba instructors said questions would NOT have been raised. But they are not involved in those professions. They have been (and remain, I assume, in Armando's case) intimately and professionally involved in the rotten, out of control, usurious corporate and financial world that is the very FOUNDATION of the problems besetting this country at the present time. You cannot chase the money changers out of the temple with one hand while changing money with the other, Nightprowlkitty. People will figure the hustle out, eventually.

Maryscott also suggests that those who engage in renumerated activities on behalf of candidates be VERY careful and above-board in their acknowledgements of those activities if they are to promote those candidates on their blogs. Each and every time that they discuss said candidates. Again...this is so that they can disarm all possible accusations of impropriety BEFORE THEY BEGIN.

No "unfounded accusations" there, as far as I can see.

Just common sense.

Something with which MSOC has been blessed in adundance.

Now my own prescription for perceived honesty in these matters is as follows. (From another comment here.):

You want accountability?

Don't engage in unaccountable activities.

Duh.

I understand perfectly that this is easier promised than done. As Maryscott wrote:

Look, I have my opinions about the Big Boys of Blogging: for the most part, I think they're doing the best they can, and that their motives are benign. Some of them are more into the money and power thing, and that's fine -- it's their business, it's their thing. It's not mine... but then, of course, saying that is like turning down a Cadillac when no one's even offering me a used Rabbit, you know?

Who the hell knows WHAT I'd do if faced with the chance to make a pile of dough by keeping my mouth shut and/or speaking words not necessarily my own.

And further...if one is to have real impact on the larger political world, there is a school of thought that one must enter INTO that world with both feet. Which if done means that one's shoes are necessarily going to get full of shit, because it is quite simply a very shitty world. A world full of hustlers, sharks and marks. (Please see the life and times of Joe Lieberman for more on that.)

So it goes.

I am not at all convinced that one DOES have to descend into the shark tank to make a difference.

Or...lie down with dogfish and you are bound to come up with lampreys.

Or...as the I Ching so eloquently puts it, fight evil with the weapons of evil AND YOU INEVITABLY BECOME THE EVIL YOU FIGHT.

So, in conclusion let me once again ask you to post those "unfounded accusation" which you claim that MSOC made in her original post.

Inquiring minds want to know.

They really do.

Thank you...

AG

P.S. Just so's no one thinks that YOU are guilty of any impropriety...what exactly is your connection with Armando and/or dKos? Not that I expect a straight answer if you are indeed some Kosbot or involved with Armando  in other ways...just so that when THAT comes to light (as all improprieties eventually seem to, here on Allseeinginfoblogworld) I will not fall down in a stupor of excess amazement and hurt myself.

Government is the Entertainment Division of the Military-Industrial Complex.-Frank Zappa


[ Parent ]
Read Your Own Words (11.00 / 1)
P.S. Just so's no one thinks that YOU are guilty of any impropriety...what exactly is your connection with Armando and/or dKos? Not that I expect a straight answer if you are indeed some Kosbot or involved with Armando  in other ways...just so that when THAT comes to light (as all improprieties eventually seem to, here on Allseeinginfoblogworld) I will not fall down in a stupor of excess amazement and hurt myself.

This pretty much describes the whole problem with Maryscott's diary.  Where will this kind of demand for "transparency" end?  And how can such innuendo be answered?  To me, the way Armando answers it is the only effective way, and it is also the way Democrats in general should respond to this kind of bogus tactic -- immediate rejection.

As for your questions, I answered them in my post above and on the thread at Daily Kos, if you care to look that up.


[ Parent ]
Where will it end? (0.00 / 0)
Apparently, the buckfuck stops here.

On this blog.

Right now.

Please go to Maryscott's post titled Blog Advertising & Politicians: THE OFFICIAL MLW POLICY.

I quote:

My Left Wing does not now,
  nor will it ever, accept paid advertising
from individual political candidates.

THERE'S a good start.

Let's begin the blog world equivalent of a matching fund.

Let dKos match THAT one.

(Wanna bet?)

You ask where the demand for "transparency" will end?  It will end when the ongoing suggestions of opacity disappear.

Once again from Maryscott's Blog Advertising & Politicians: THE OFFICIAL MLW POLICY post  that is linked above:

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Integrity is being ethical beyond doubt. Anything grey is black.

Yup.

That's the way it's working these days in InfoCentral. Little improprieties  become known so quickly and so widely that they even bring down Presidents.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

This cannot be stated any more clearly.

Anything grey is black.

Is this "fair?"

I do not know.

But I do know this.

It IS. Fair or not, that is the way the system is operating today. Paparazzi/Tabloid World is here and thriving. and the great magnifier of the internet has made it even worse.

You CANNOT magnify zero, though.

So zero is what is necessaruy under these conditions.

No blue dresses allowed.

We are fighting against a totally corrupt system.

We cannot even APPEAR to be tainted by the same sort of corruption.

Too damned much grey showing up at little Orange.

WAY too much.

There was no great cry for "transparency" at the beginning of its life, just as there is none here or on Booman trib so far. Why? Because the markers that lead to suggestions of impropriety simply were not present.

They are STILL not present here, for example.

But at dKos?

Red flags BY THE HUNDREDS.

In the high-handed actions of its controllers.

In the blogswarming not only of trolls and nasty actors, but of ANY OPINION THAT IS NOT "ACCEPTABLE" TO THE AIMS...AIMS THAT ARE HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE GIVEN WHAT HAS BECOME FACTUALLY KNOWN OF THE CAREERS AND ACTIONS OF SEVERAL OF THE DOMINANT FIGURES THERE...OF KOS AND HIS BOYS. (And I use the word "boys" advisedly, both as a sexual term and in its age significance. When many of us derisively use the term "old boys' club" to decribe the hierarchy that runs this country we do no mean that we would prefer a "young boys' club" in its stead.)

In the Las Vegas error...one which I believe is perhaps the worst PR mistake to be made in American politics since Dukakis made the mistake of climbing into that tank.

If indeed it WAS a "mistake" rather than a quite calculated message that said  "Nudge nudge, wink wink. We're on your side, wiseguys."

And in the choices of candidates to "support" (more wink winking) or not to support...Warner on one side of that equation and Hackett on the other, just for starters

As far as my other "questions" are concerned...humor me.

Please quote from Maryscott's original diary on dKos...you know, the on that started this whole thing...three examples of her"unfounded accusations" towards members of the the dKos hierarchy.

That should be simple enough.

Go ahead.

I'm waiting...

AG

Government is the Entertainment Division of the Military-Industrial Complex.-Frank Zappa


[ Parent ]
Ha (9.00 / 2)
You ask where the demand for "transparency" will end?  It will end when the ongoing suggestions of opacity disappear.

Tell the Kerry Swiftboaters that.  Was Kerry being opaque?  You are just plain wrong as far as that kind of tactic is concerned.  Karl Rove doesn't need any kind of facts to "suggest opacity."

As far as My Left Wing not taking contributions from politicians -- do you really believe that will inoculate Maryscott from "suggestions" of impropriety?  How about her going on Fox News?  Swiftboaters can have a field day with that one -- from both the right and the left.  Does she get paid?  Does that make her pull any punches on "certain" topics?  Do you really think the only kind of corruption politically comes from taking paid ads from politicians?  Lord have mercy, there is no such thing as real transparency when it comes to those who wish to destroy someone in the public square.

In my view the only way to combat those kind of bullshit attacks is immediate rejection, never buying into the argument at all.  Once you do, the swiftboating is successful, no matter the "real facts."

As far as my criticism of Maryscott's unfounded accusations -- my biggest one was her characterization that "many" who disagreed with the diary she linked to were victims of "groupthink."  She projected her own experiences of her days of troll hunting onto other individuals not knowing (or perhaps caring about) the context in which that diary was rated, what was going on at the site during that time and how it was being attacked.  She made endless claims that she was not accusing Markos of any impropriety and then went on and on about the "appearance" of impropriety, which simply muddied the water and caused a flame war, ripping open a very freshly healed wound to the community and attributing our defense of the site to mindless troll hunting instead of real community policing.

Again, if you want to know my substantive comments about her diary, check the thread, check my comments -- what I've written above is merely a summary.  If you are as interested as you claim you will do so.  I somehow doubt you are really interested in my views.  We'll see.


[ Parent ]
You write: (0.00 / 0)

"Tell the Kerry Swiftboaters that.  Was Kerry being opaque?  You are just plain wrong as far as that kind of tactic is concerned.  Karl Rove doesn't need any kind of facts to 'suggest opacity.'"

1-So now I...we...are "Swift Boating" dKos? As allies who are merely asking...almost begging...him to reconsider some of his tactics because of their wrongheadedness on any number of levels. The diary being attacked was simply a plea to STOP that sort of thing from happening.

From one ally to another.

Had Small K kerry handled the Swift Boat thing well...had he mounted a similar (and similarly large and effective) campaign to publicize the (non-existent) the war records of Bush and Cheney, had he PUBLICLY CONFRONTED BUSH ON THE MATTER (The debates might have been a nice place to do that, don'tcha think?)...the words "Swift Boat" would now be an afterthought to a successful Democratic campaign.

A trivia question.

2-"As far as my criticism of Maryscott's unfounded accusations -- my biggest one was her characterization that 'many' who disagreed with the diary she linked to were victims of "groupthink.' "

Lord.

Do you READ dKos?

Did you read the comments?

Lockstep blog zombies, 95% of the people who post there. Almost everyone with an OUNCE of originality has been chased off the site or banned over the last year. Tactics.

You disagree?

That's what makes horseraces.

And failed movements as well.

3-"She made endless claims that she was not accusing Markos of any impropriety and then went on and on about the 'appearance' of impropriety, which simply muddied the water and caused a flame war, ripping open a very freshly healed wound to the community and attributing our defense of the site to mindless troll hunting instead of real community policing."

Are you so unsubtle, so crude mentally as to not know the difference between impropriety and the appearance of it?  Give the REAL Swift Boaters an opening...ANY opening...and they will be there in a NY minute.

"Clean like Gene" wasn't just a slogan.

It was a SUGGESTION.

And "ripping open a very freshly healed wound?" It is NOT healed; it is rapidly threatening to become a running sore upon the movement, and it is Markos and his partners/handlers/call them what you will who created said sore IN THE FIRST PLACE by their ill-considered actions both in "policing" (nice choice of words, by the way) their blog of all opposing ideas and by taking part in the system which they are supposed to be trying to reform TO THEIR OWN PERSONAL PROFIT.

Again...I do not necessarily mean Markos, although I have my own private doubts on that subject as well. But since there is no evidence against him, let us simply consider the publicly acknowledged actions of two of his top lieutenants,

Jerome Armstrong and Armando.

Now Jerome's invovement in stock hyping might be excused as youthful, broke folly, although if my son or any other young person who professes to the attainment of some personal honor were to tell me that he or she was thinking of getting involved in that scene to any degree whatsoever, I would advise them to IMMEDIATELY get some job that requires sweat and a strong back (or barring that capability, at least does not include proficient and conscious lying as part of its job description) as karmic insurance if for no other reason.

And Armando?

Unforgivable, as far as I am concerned.

He should be run out of Blogville on a rail.

Not because of the way he deals with people.

But because of his ongoing hypocrisy while doing so.

4-"Again, if you want to know my substantive comments about her diary, check the thread, check my comments -- what I've written above is merely a summary.  If you are as interested as you claim you will do so.  I somehow doubt you are really interested in my views.  We'll see."

I have exactly 1/2 hour before I must begin to prepare for work. I will go there.

If there is enough time,  I will return.

Otherwise...manana.

Bet on it.

AG

Government is the Entertainment Division of the Military-Industrial Complex.-Frank Zappa


[ Parent ]
Nonsense. (10.00 / 1)
If Kerry had gone on and on about his record, showing papers and witnesses, it would not have made one whit of difference -- quite the contrary, it would only have fed the false story further.  If he had, as Murtha did, made a blistering rejection of the charge and attacked his attackers accordingly (cf. Murtha calling Cheney "5-deferment" and excoriating Rove as "sitting on his fat backside" while soldiers walk in the hot weather wearing 70 lb. packs) he could have squelched that line of attack.  But I don't blame Kerry -- hindsight is wonderful.

The rest of your post is utter bullshit and simply illustrates what I said about spreading attack memes from real enemies of the Democrats -- just a bunch of smears and innuendoes.


[ Parent ]
Correction (0.00 / 0)
Upon re-reading your comment, I see you were advocating the same course as I was in the Kerry scenario.  So I correct that part of my criticism.

But you have only made my point.  For Markos to respond to the kind of swiftboat attacks that his and the other liberal blogs have been receiving by showing "greater transparency" as MSOC advises would only give more and more credence to those kind of attacks.  His strategy has been the same as the one you recommended Kerry should have done.

As far as the rest of my comment -- the utter bullshit part, I leave that as it stands.  All you have done is repeat the smears and add your own innuendos.


[ Parent ]
Well...I read 'em all (0.00 / 1)
Not one substantive comment in the lot. Lots of of disagreeing with the groupthink idea, lots of "transparency is impossible" stuff...and that's it.

No disproving of "unfounded accusations", either specific OR general.

Because of course, "groupthink" CANNOT be proven. OR disproven. Either you hear it or you don't. We all have our own line in thye sand when it comes to that. Those who still retain control over their own toes, anyway.

And "transparency"?

Ditto.

Of COURSE total transparency is impossible. You could set up a 24 hour webcam and someone would claim that you are using a stunt double.

I'd settle for some translucency over there, myself. As it stands now, the clouds of dust and smoke that are trampled up on dKos by the herd of bleeple (blog people) currently in residence blots out any and ALL light. And under cover of the resultant unclear...errr nuclear... winter, all KINDS of strange mutations seem to be occurring.

PERmutations too.

And unnatural combinations as well.

So it goes.

I went to your comments hoping to find an agile mind. I really did.

Nothing there but the usual unfocused complaints.

So it goes.

Dkos is SO over...

Later...

AG

Government is the Entertainment Division of the Military-Industrial Complex.-Frank Zappa


[ Parent ]
LOL (9.00 / 1)
I went to your comments hoping to find an agile mind. I really did.

Oh that is a good one.

Seriously, I very much agree there is little to commend the comment section there.  And I feel the diary is responsible for that -- it was polarizing and not clearly thought out.  When a diary causes a flame war like this one did, it is rare for anything good to come out of it.  This diary would never have gotten on the rec list were it not for the goodwill that the Kos community always extends to Maryscott.


[ Parent ]
It's the reason I did not post about (10.00 / 4)
my experience and take on YKos, which, as I've written here, was offensive to me.  Unless big changes are made to include people of color and the poor, I'll never attend Ykos again.  But, I refrained from posting my feelings because  I just didn't want to deal with the "defenders."

Dkos is just at a certain level in the evolution of organization.  It is the nature of organization, and MLWers will have to work very hard to keep it from happening to that extent here.  But, that would be the exception to the general rule.  There will be a hierarcy, intolerance of independent thought, group think, and purging, purging, purging.  It's happened in every liberal organization to which I've ever belonged, and it's fucking depressing.  Liberals tend to become fascistic in their own little fiefdoms.  Liberals eat their young. 

"You can be shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right." Hunter/Garcia


Who's Next? (0.00 / 0)
"Meet The New Boss....Same As the Old Boss"

-The Who (Won't Get Fooled Again)

Judas' price was 40 pieces of silver...every man has his as well.

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
"Judas' price was 40 pieces of silver" (7.00 / 1)
It was thirty. Or is the 40 adjusted for inflation?

"Because sometimes the best things to say are the things better left unsaid."

[ Parent ]
Kinda o/t (7.50 / 2)
but I think one of the things they should consider in choosing a site for yKos is whether there is a strong on-line presence in the locale, who could provide housing for those who may be able to afford transportation, or afford registration, but can't afford travel and restaurant meals for several days and registration.


Leave the cat alone, for what has the cat done, that you should so afflict it with tape? - Ian Frazier, Lamentations of the Father


[ Parent ]
When a blog becomes huge, there are bound to be (10.00 / 2)
more "mobsters" in it, more ne-er do wells, more "hangers on."  For that matter, whenever anything becomes successful, people flock to it, become "fans" or participants, and they may not share the same spirit, creativity and sensitivity that attracted the core people in the first place; so they dilute it, distort it, and can eviscerate it.  How do you expand and yet remain true to the creative impulses to which you owe your early success?  In the young blogging world, that is the struggle we face, but it is not a new struggle. It's true for musicians, sports franchises, businesses, I guess anything capable of experiencing an arc of birth, development, success, adjustment and then, what?  Musicians, for example, can keep playing their "old" hits, and might continue to make money, but they may also feel stifled if they don't branch out in other ways.

Has anyone been watching this season of "Entourage" on HBO?  The star actor surrounded by his buddies who protect, serve and live off his success are joined by a convict buddy of the actor's, and the con's irresponsible behavior threatens to ruin their interrelationships and harm the meal ticket's image and ability to make a star's living.  The actor feels he owes the con for past transgressions so he won't dump him, which will no doubt lead to difficulty and pain for all.  Don't know how this story line will play out on the show, but I see a bit of a parallel here and at DKos, in that people rightly fear an obnoxious element that can become increasingly evident, yet what can realistically and fairly be done to regulate it without destroying the freedom we revel in?

The hybrid nature of this world fascinates me because the fan/participant/customer/media lines are so very blurred here, like nowhere else.  It is one of the great things about this kind of venue that anyone can jump in; there is no entrance fee, at least in terms of dollars (but there is competition for recognition and "privilege" to some degree, and a yearning, I suppose among some, to be part of the "ins" and become influential, etc.), no vetting or application that anyone on high considers before you can join in, and anyone can try to take the discussion anywhere, or start their own.  But that opportunity for chaos/anarchy can and does lead to. . .  chaos and anarchy followed, sometimes, by a crackdown.

In one way, "MLW" may have provided itself one small barrier to inhibit the DKos excesses: the name itself and the marquee slogan imply, at least to me, a somewhat more insular subgroup of "lefties" that is not so clearly defined at DKos and may deter some of the abusive element from becoming habitues here. But that is just the beginning, and I wish I had a good idea about how to maintain the freedom while also maintaining the quality and warm welcoming atmosphere.  I fear that it will take more exercise of "control" from "on high", by whomever are properly the keepers of the MLW flame, and to a lesser extent, those participants who are willing to exercise a small degree of self- and even community discipline, while maintaining the greatest amount of free expression.  Because these issues will never go away, we will always have these kinds of discussions, emotions and struggles. 

A final bon mot, which I can unhesitatingly call it because it's not mine.  While Martin Luther King was talking about concerns of a more profound and fundamental character than we are here, he did have insight into the nature of conflict and irreconcilable differences, large and small, that continue to arise:

"Human progress is neither automatic nor inevitable... Every step toward the goal of justice requires sacrifice, suffering, and struggle; the tireless exertions and passionate concern of dedicated individuals."


[ Parent ]
I Just Wonder What Can ACTUALLY Be Done (9.00 / 1)
to fight the mere "appearance" of impropriety. I mean, look how far the Right Wing was willing to go in exposing the "improprieties" of Bill and Hillary?  No matter WHAT was said, no matter how politely we on the Left presented cold, hard FACTS, those "improprieties" led to impeachment.

I don't know what Kos has done in the past, or exactly what he's doing when he's away from his computer now. I don't even really know what YOU do in your spare time. But I do know that I gain so much from the experience of reading the little worlds that the two of you have put together. I know that I'm positively influenced by what you and Kos offer. That's why I'm here AND there.

I'm not sure if this rambling is coming to a point anytime soon, so maybe I should just stop typing. Bottom line question: What can we REALLY do to get to the bottom of the need for "full disclosure" when ACTUAL "full disclosure" will never satisfy the loudest critics?

RNinNC - now in HOLLYWOOD!


Group-Think and the Head Bully-Boy (1.00 / 1)

Thank you for discussing the group-think issue at Daily Kos, Maryscott.  While I choose not to participate on that site, specifically because of some of the issues noted in a few of the comments above, I do read the diaries and comments there almost daily. There are many contributors to Daily Kos who provide thoughtful and enlightening discussions on current issues, and there are many endearing personalities on the site. I very much appreciate such contributions and personalities, including yours.

I've found that I am generally sucessful at ignoring the more obnoxious, unhelpful and uninformative commentors like Armando, who seems to be the Head Bully-Boy and Dear Leader for the Bully-Boy Sychophants who project a school yard recess environment with their posture of "let's all beat that kid up cuz he's different".  That said, it is never-the-less frustrating at times when he and his ilk hijack a thoughtful discussion because the expressed opinions differ from their own. 

While my own strategy with the Head Bully-Boy and his gang is the same as it is for the right wing Head Bully-Bat,of the 'Godless Liberal' notoriety (ignore, ignore, ignore), I understand that society works best with diverse strategies for resisting bullies, and that my strategy doesn't fit everyone. 

I appreciate your forthright and fair-minded approach to issues. Please, rant on, Maryscott - you do it well!


Maryscott (9.00 / 2)
I would ask in particular that you react to this comment. Do you agree with it? If so, why?

[ Parent ]
When Armando (8.00 / 8)
writes a post, it seems well-researched and making a point most of us can agree with.

When he comments on others, he reveals himself to be a classic a-hole -- intolerant of disagreement, rude, name-calling, and always over-confident in his own correctness. (Of course, most of us think we're right; the non a-holes just know how to express themselves without making that belief so obvious as to cut off debate, which most of us value. [And some of us also went to Ivy League schools and got advanced degrees -- that's not a license to be an arrogant jerk.]) Of course, some people do not value debate or discourse; they want agreement or capitulation.  In my opinion, this is the kind of person whose actions would, intentionally or not, undermine a humane, democratic society.

For now, these people (there are more than a few at DailyKos) who 'think like us' but are a-holes, the kind of people we would not want in a better society, are only a nuisance, not a real problem.  But when progressives get some degree of power in society, this type of person can no longer be tolerated.  They are the equivalent of Maoist cultural revolutionaries, annointing themselves the keepers of some idea of purity and once they decide they have identified some impure target, they become rabid, unreasonable attack dogs.  In time, despite the fact we agree with their beliefs, the attitudes and actions of this type of person will become dangerous, and threaten rather than advance the cause of a good society.


[ Parent ]
And the man certainly proved your points out to be false - NOT. (0.00 / 0)
Reading this blog thread with its extensive examples of the best and worst people have to offer has certainly proved your observations to be entirely correct.  It's just not Armando, but of the many other commenters who can write stunning observations in diaries but be condescending thugs of opinion when they're in threads.


Low and Left - High-minded foreign & domestic events criticism with increasingly drunk and vulgar renditions of Freebird

[ Parent ]
Agree with all comments except... (3.50 / 2)
the "influence" of the mighty Kos monster is still very presumptive, and very much in doubt...and frankly always will be...how do you verify his influence at the polls? I mean, Bush has been a much greater force for coalescing the reactive Democratic movement than Kos. As MSOC said, he, Armstrong and others were just lucky to be the sounding board in the time of the Great Reptublican Idiot.

Sure, if the Dems win something he can TAKE credit, but is it really his to take?

The liberal blogosphere is a great sounding board for the "disadvantaged", but its still nothing more than a reactionary liberal chat room with fascist tendencies...well DKos has apparently slipped into full blown cyber fascism, apparently...this site and nowhere excepted.

Thanks MSOC for being reborn and keeping it real for a few of us, at least! I remember well your days of consciousness raised at the Kos.


Influence (11.00 / 2)
Yeah I am still waiting to see the great big influence of the so-called Blogosphere. So far the country is still run by greedy idiots, criminals, and assholes. All the Bush-scandals that got heavy air-play on dKos and other sites vanished into the memory hole exactly the same way they would have before the internets were perfected.

And while we are at it, I still think it's presumptive to assume that the fucked up course America is on will really be changed if Democrats win. As I've said before, show me the 200+ Democratic co-sponsors of Universal Health Insurance before asking me to believe my problems will be solved be electing more Democrats (instead of just having less of BushCo pouring gasoline on the fires, which is a sorry thing to have to settle for...)

Lately I tend to agree somewhat with Alexander Cockburn, who harshes out on the whole blogs-as-politics "movement":

Beyond raising money swiftly handed over to the gratified veterans of the election industry, both MoveOn and Daily Kos have had zero political effect, except as a demobilizing force. The effect on writers is horrifying. Talented people feel they have to produce 400 words of commentary every day, and you can see the lethal consequences on their minds and style, which turn rapidly to slush. They glance at the New York Times and rush to their laptops to rewrite what they just read. Hawsers to reality soon fray and they float off, drifting zeppelins of inanity.

I read this on Counterpunch and it describes the reason I stopped paying as much attention to dKos:

Now this is very bizarre, when you think about it. When did "we" ever have the Democratic Party, or the country? When did they get taken away? By whom? How did that happen? Open and honest government -- when did we ever have that? Never, you say? Then how can we get it "back"? When did we live in this Eden that Howard [Dean] wants to restore?

If God did not exist, Candide observes, man would have to invent him. This imaginary former state of grace is a necessary invention too. The Kosniks know that sometime in the last half-century, the Republicans acquired a decisive upper hand, and they know the country is going to hell in a handbasket. So far so good; but then they make a false step. They start with a conclusion -- restoring the Democrats to power would make things better -- and for there they reason backwards to the necessary premise, namely that we once enjoyed all these things they quite rightly want, and we lost them when the Republicans took over...

They've invested so much, emotionally, in the Democratic Party that it's made them rather shallow and monotonous. All their thinking, all their energy, is bent toward getting people like Massa and Sestak -- and ultimately, Warner or Hillary Clinton -- into office. As the song says:

One, two, three, what're we fighting for?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn...

No doubt they all started with a vision, a generous, humane vision. But the instrument they chose to realize their vision has turned them into its instruments instead.



'What can I do?' - SiCKO

[ Parent ]
Cockburn is a true leftist (1.00 / 1)
unlike the mushy variety being led to slaughter for the personal gain or wtf of Kos, the thuglike BooMan and even the beautiful, fair and open minded MSOC.

Plus, he keeps his own opinions and isnt afraid to print them.

Personally, my view of blogging comes from observing myself. Its mainly just another variety of internet addiction.

That the Democrats like warner sponsored and actually lent credence to the farcical YearlyKos makes me even prouder of fellow badger Feingold for skippng the event, especially to attend the so important Wisconsin Democratic convention, or wtf.

As Cockburn says, people spending so much time on the internets creating and reading third rate news/political analysis seems more harmful to the Democrats not helpful. A gigantic time and energy waster, like shooting smack...only its cheaper entertainment.

BTW, I went a little wild blogging over the weekend of YKOS on Booman Tribunes and got myself banned there again. I was banned on DKOS about a year ago.

Some of my "work" that weekend was "brilliant". Its still up there, I think. Hint. Hint.

Now appearing regularly at nowhere

Stop by. Brian is looking for free thinkers to contribute and there are NO RULES (except no cute puppy pix).


[ Parent ]
I can't say I care that much about Markos. (10.00 / 2)
(cross-posted)
I love Dailykos.  (Well, sometimes).  And Markos has done a fine job in creating Dailykos, the seedbed for the community that has taken root here.

But Markos?  Nice guy, but I don't really care all THAT much what he thinks about issues.  Maybe I'm just cantankerous, but I read what he says with a grain of salt, just one more guy with a website expressing his point of view.

Is he corrupt?  Again, I don't care, so I don't even need to address the issue.  Quite frankly, I am stunned by the massive overreaction by those on the other blogs in defense of Markos.  The point has been well-made many times: the Democratic Party is full of dual-track pundit/consultants who make money off the same people that they endorse.  Whether or not Markos is like the rest of them, I don't care, because, really, he's not that relevant to me, personally.  He's entitled to eke out his existence however he wants, and it's none of my business unless he lies to me about something I DO care about. 

Since there are no trust issues involved for me, I say, Markos, knock yourself out.  If you're not making at least a little money off of candidates, you're stupid not to.

It amazes me at times how hero/idol-centric those on the right (or the DLC-right) assume that the rest of us are.  I have had some truly mind-boggling arguments with right-wingers on other (non-left) forums, where they just can't understand that I don't care if Michael Moore hires blacks or not, or if he owns stock in Halliburton.  I never cared about Michael Moore, and he's not my hero.  I care about the war.

Likewise, I don't care if Cindy Sheehan enjoyed being arrested in DC.  Many on the right took glee in criticizing her for smiling during her arrest over the T-shirt incident, as if her enjoyment of the moment needed explaining or should lower my opinion of her.  But I can't express how little I care about it, because it was never about Cindy Sheehan or even her son.  It's about the war.  IT'S ABOUT THE FUCKING WAR.  And all this idol-centric bullshit only tells me that the critics don't get it.  There are real issues at stake.

I think this may be why the right is so much more thin-skinned about criticism of their idols.  Allegations of Mehlman being gay, O'Reilly being a pervert, Bush being a cokehead, Rove being a traitor: that all cuts straight to the bone.  People who take time to troll the right-wing blogs know this.  Their sense of personal persecution over these accusations is enormous. 

They are not motivated by ideology and issues to the degree that we are.  Bush is the second-coming, and O'Reilly and Malkin are his apostles.  To question their character is to question the very basis of everything they believe.  Which only tells you how little they believe.  If George W. Bush came out tomorrow, and told everybody, "We gotta cut and run from Iraq, NOW!" the Right would be all behind him, 100 percent, saying, it was our idea all along, and damn the left for trying to reverse-psych us into not doing what our fearless leader has proclaimed. 


Normally I do not post here (5.50 / 4)
But the unfairness of your diary is such that I believe I should.

You criticize people, including me, for debunking a fallacious diary. You call that being zealous and "GroupThink."

Your charges are false, counterproductive and irresponsible.

In hindsight, can you comment on any mistakes you think you might have made in this diary?

You believe you have lost relationships. That is up to you as far as I am concerned.

If you choose to no longer have a relationship with me, that is your perogative and YOUR choice.

In any event, I still care for you and respect you. And I still wish you and the folks of this site the best of luck.

So long.


Hey Armando? (2.25 / 4)
Ever see High Plains Drifter?

Guess what fucker....you now live in LAGO.

Get used to seeing the color red!

Seeya around!

ED

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
To be clear (7.00 / 4)
your e-mail to was the height of insincerity. Your desire to explain yourself bullshit.

Maryscott, this is a guy you vouched for to me.

This is who he is.

Do you want to reconsider whether you were right to vouch for him to me?

Reverse his banning? You think he deserves it Maryscott?


[ Parent ]
You Screwed Me Armando! (4.00 / 2)
I only resorted to posting this here because you kept censoring me....and didn't respond like a man would.

I tried to explain my position and even sent you an email personally but you didn't even find it important enough to respeond. And you kept hiding my comments...you are a fucking coward.

Hey...how would you like it if one of those right-wing Neo Nazi pricks started threatening YOUR family....it was only going to get worse too with them using my comments to scapegoat KOS. For me and you....I did what I felt was necessary...now I am pissed.

Look, acknowledge your sins and let's all try to pull together...this is bullshit.

you have my email address....let's talk.

EE

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
Welcome to my world, Ed (0.00 / 0)
I tried to explain my position and even sent you an email personally but you didn't even find it important enough to respeond. And you kept hiding my comments...you are a fucking coward.

That's how they operate. That's what I got from FDL, from Media Matters, from Bob Geiger, from Patriotboy, from Arianna Huffington, from virtually every arch, elitist, piece of shit Liberal In Name Only blog from which I've ever been banned. Get used to it. If you follow the comments both here and on DK you'll note that even though I've expounded at length and with some degree of eloquence on what MSOC said, Armando's completely ignored me in both threads.

And you know what? That's fine. Because this little dog doesn't need to get his butt sniffed by the so-called big dogs in order to fit into the pack.

But it's an indication of the complete contempt with which they regard me. And they turn their back to me at their own peril...

"Because sometimes the best things to say are the things better left unsaid."


[ Parent ]
Then it is OUR world.... (1.00 / 2)
....if Armando and KOS and his people choose to become advocates of the ruling DLC and the corrupt establishment that serve as palace guards for the fascists who have usurped the power of the people then so be it.

The movement for the truth then must be furthered by those of us at the lesser than 'A list' blogs...that is sooo fucking elitist.

Keep up the good work on your end and I will do so on mine.

"Our lives begin to end on the day we become silent about things that matter"

-MLK

Or as I must add become sellouts to the very corrupt system that seeks to enslave us all.

Armando and the Kosanostra remind me of the Cypher character in the movie The Matrix.....how does that steak taste Judas?

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
You need to quit going over the top. (6.00 / 2)
This is a huge over reaction to the wrong person. 

[ Parent ]
I wouldn't go as far as to call (6.00 / 1)
DK "the Kosanostra." The bigger Daily Kos gets, the less responsibility Kos can accept for it. I don't have a problem with Kos, personally, and he genuinely seems interested in doing the right things.

"Because sometimes the best things to say are the things better left unsaid."

[ Parent ]
ED -- what the FUCK? (7.25 / 4)

Goddamnit, I do NOT need this shit. What the FUCK are you playing at?

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

[ Parent ]
MSOC- I will now behave myself! (2.50 / 2)
As promised I will behave myself, unfortunately this particular post seemed to bring out a lot of the issues that were a problem for me most particularly the censorship and bullying. It does appear that a lot of others have experienced similar things.

This is the last that I have to say on it. I am moving on to better things like writing about the ugly truths that many are afraid to acknowledge.

Thank you for the forum and I will continue to post my diaries here as long as you are gracious enough to allow me to.

EE

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
Dear, dear Armando... (0.00 / 0)
As usual, I must start this by saying, "Armando, I love you, but..."

So, Armando, I love you but...  If I ever read a diary that included a phrase like this:

"If you choose to no longer have a relationship with me, that is your perogative and YOUR choice.  In any event, I still care for you and respect you. And I still wish you and the folks of this site the best of luck."

... and it didn't say who wrote it, maybe was even anonymous, I would still know it was written by you.


[ Parent ]
my question armando (0.00 / 0)
is the same as on dkos.  What exactly is about this diary that disappoints you?

As I see it the writer in question was not calling into question Markos' credibilty, just pointing out that it could be.  This is the number one tactic of our neo-con opponents, create a story, with a shred of a grain of truth; and discredit the hell out of them with it.

It gave Kos the perfect opportunity to publicly clear it before hand (which he brilliantly took)
and allowed him to protect himself.

Yep, people are cliquey, and mlw is not perfect, nor are any others, but neither kos or msoc demands blind acquiessence; loyalty and fealty.
As it should be.  My idea of a true friend isn't a suck up, but one who will tell me, with love, I've fucked up.  Warn me about danger.  Yell at me when I need it.

I am not defending, I just dont understand what your objection is.  I don't have the long history, so explain please.


[ Parent ]
I explaine dit n the diary MSOC defend (4.50 / 4)
and in her diary - she has chosen to defend an awful diary and falsely accuse those of us who debunked of some awful things.

The fact is neither MSOC nor any of you have addressed that central point.

Frankly, the Groupthink is all in this diary thread.

How's that accusation feel to you? Do you respect it?


[ Parent ]
I read the original post (0.00 / 0)
and it did not accuse "you" a you choose to see it of anything.  It said rumor has it kos accepts political monies, and IF he or others have, they need to make that public, before the Repugs eat them alive over it.

What the Fuck part of reality dont you get?  Even if Kos does NOT, it is a point that is valid.  Let's be open as a blogging community, so we can be accusition free.  How is that "awful"??????

Methinks YOU protest too much.  Kos took it much classier.  Whatever.

Im not a groupthinker,and not even generally liked by msoc, so to accuse ME of all people of that is Ludicrous.  You know not of what you speak, so maybe try some thing new; and listen to what the fuck I've just said!


[ Parent ]
See (9.00 / 1)
To me this is extremely problematic:

"It said rumor has it kos accepts political monies, and IF he or others have, they need to make that public, before the Repugs eat them alive over it.

What the Fuck part of reality dont you get?  Even if Kos does NOT, it is a point that is valid."

First, it was false, and the diary did not say it was arumor, it said it was true.

Second, Kos had said so on nmerous occasons, including that very day.

It amazes me that you argue that the facts do not have an impact on reality in your mind.


[ Parent ]
The charge of groupthink (5.00 / 2)
for debunking a fallacious diary.

That is the heart of my objection and no one has had the gumption to address it.

I assume because there is no answer.


[ Parent ]
your debunk is here (0.00 / 0)
you just wont hear it.



[ Parent ]
Really? (0.00 / 0)
I really did not see it.

What is the answer to a number of people agreeing that a diary used fallacious information?

Someone needs to explain how that translates into a groupthink and  substantive response to the debunking.


[ Parent ]
Well (0.00 / 0)
there is debunking and debunking.

I don't know much about the diary in question.  But I do know that if someone is a liberal and/or a democrat, it might behoove some people to go gently on them.  So as not to drive them out of the party, you know, or silence their voice, no matter how fallacious.

Writing an inaccurate diary isn't a crime.  It doesn't make one a troll, in and of itself, nor does refusing to delete one's own work.  And it's not something to get yelled at over.  I think that's what some folks are saying.  And I think I agree with it.

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future


[ Parent ]
What was offensive (0.00 / 0)
in telling someone they wer wrong on their facts and to please adjust their thinking accordingly?

It happens to me all the time.

Honestly, this is so much nonsense.


[ Parent ]
Dear 'mando (0.00 / 0)
would you please adjust your thinking accordingly?

rotflmfao

ouch, i hurt my tummy.

Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
Adjust it to what? (0.00 / 0)
Tell me something substantive that I should take into account.

I dunno, asking for facts seems to be my sin.


[ Parent ]
if it suits you, you could try this on (0.00 / 0)
asking for facts is NOT your sin (don't believe in 'em myself), demanding that people's "this is whast I have been thingking about and have questions...." confrom to a set pattern of "faxts" (yes, I misspelled that on purpose) may be a foible of yours....

From an outsider's perspective here:

I think your issue is not so much with Maryscott or what she is saying (even if she chose a poor example for making her point, and I think she did), but perhaps with the original diarist?

Do you deny that there is a whole lotta piling going on these days?

Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
Absolutely (9.00 / 1)
but also with MSOC calling our reaction Groupthink. That was very wrong of her.

[ Parent ]
k, let's say that I agree with you (0.00 / 0)
that her calling "groupthink" on this particular instance was flawed (not saying that I do or don't, it is irrevant at this point). I agree.

Moving BEYOND that particular diary and it's subject matter for a moment, what do you have to say (if anything) on the whole nature of the pile-on, troll-hunter, bully-boy, intimidation phenomenon that so many seem to be talking about here (and there and everywhere)??


Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
I think (0.00 / 0)
that the fact it is discussed so muc h proves how false it is.

If the intimidation was real there would be no comments about it.


[ Parent ]
just realized (0.00 / 0)
I didn't address the groupthink issue.  When one person yells at someone for posting an inaccurate diary, that's an opinion.  When thirty people do the same thing, it's groupthink.  It's ganging up on someone.  Something that should never be done to a fellow Democrat.

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

[ Parent ]
When 30 people agree (0.00 / 0)
it is groupthink?

IS that REALLY your argument?

How about if 15 agree?


[ Parent ]
It is simply your opinion that this was a (0.00 / 0)
fallacious diary.  Because you think it, doesn't make it so.  There are obviously a whole group of people who disagree with you.  Do you accept that?  No, you're still "pushing" your opinion and telling everyone else they are wrong.  The bitch is about the lack of respect paid to different and/or opposing views.  Anything that you personally don't agree with equates to a felony in your book and results in attacks and name calling ("TROLL").  Add in the hand wringing over I only have "two troll ratings a day" woe is me, and dkos ends up looking like its full of people with paranoid personality disorder.  I love the potential of dkos, but I'm getting sick of the kids in the play pen. 

[ Parent ]
No (5.00 / 1)
It was not my opinion, it was a fact.

Markos does not consult. That is a fact. The diary said he did.

It was objectively wrong.

Honestly.


[ Parent ]
That is a fact, I agree. (0.00 / 0)
I take Markos at his word.  The argument I heard was that the diarist didn't actually say that Markos did have a conflict of interest.  On another subject BTW, you were right, and I was wrong. 

[ Parent ]
Just noticed... (0.00 / 0)
That not only have I been banned at Kos, but all of my comments at were expunged (except for the diaries).

When Bush phuques with the election in November, I'll expect an apology.

The End Of Civiliztion As We Know It


[ Parent ]
Expunged? (0.00 / 0)
You mean hidden by the community? Sounds like an autoban to me. What was your dkos name?

I can bring your comments over here so folks can judge them.


[ Parent ]
Gonna do the same for me, Armando? (0.00 / 0)
Only three of my comments are visible; and only 13 of my diaries - yet I have been posting at Kos for almost a year now (give or take).  Gonna wave that magic wand of yours, resurrect all of my diaries and commentary and post them here for all the world to see?  Please do.  Same name as here - The Fat Lady Sings.  Matter of fact - why not just do it over at Kos?  What I posted I posted publicly.  I wanted them to be read.  So go ahead, my dear.  Have at it. 

Deux ex Machina

[ Parent ]
Thank you (0.00 / 0)
To whoever it was put all my diaries and commentary up again over at KOS.  Everything is once again visible.  Interesting.

Deux ex Machina

[ Parent ]
Your diaries (0.00 / 0)
I find that hard to believe.

What was your dkos name?


[ Parent ]
Amazing that Armando asks MSOC to comment on her own mistakes... (0.00 / 0)
I've been waiting for him to attack the substance of her post here & he hasn't.  I wrote virtually the same thing in the diary which MSOC defends here (though I acknowledge she said it better and more persuasively) & I get the Armando ton o bricks rampage treatment.

Why do you ask Maryscott to critique her own post when you should be doing it yourself?  What IS wrong with what she wrote about the conflict of interest issue?  IMO, if you don't have anything to say against it or can't critique it then you're just a hypocrite.

Richard Silverstein Tikun Olam


[ Parent ]
You still won't admit your errors (0.00 / 0)
This is just ridiculous.

[ Parent ]
maryscott (0.00 / 0)
it gave me reason to post my second reply on dkos. 

This was worthwhile, and don't let them badger you into thinking its not.  I have disagreed with you in the past, liked you anyway, whether or not that part was reciprocated; and got respect from you anyway.

I'm too lazy to retype it...look at wiretapthis's there.


ps everybody, (0.00 / 0)
i haven't read any of your replies yet, Im cooking.  No offense, k?

[ Parent ]
MSOC (0.00 / 0)
forgive me for not reading all of the comments, it has been a tiring day at the lake....:)
But reading your post the following occurs to me. Whom and why Markos endorses someone is his own affair, but one must be able to withstand critism if one puts one opinions before the public. As you have demonstrated amply in the last week, mere disagreement and caustic opinions are no cause for troll ratings and disembowlment. I daresay most of us who have confidence to add to the comments here are capable of defending our opinions without resorting to schoolyard type taunting. A well disquised and thought out smartass remark will be most appreciated by our crowd anyway.
I visit here for the comedy and wisdom liberally ;) dispenced by your commentators. While blogs like yours are well on their way to changing the face of American politics they are still on the cusp.
Don't misunderstand me, I got your back. I am loyal to a fault and even if you make a severe error in judgement I will be there to defend you. But I prefer a rapier to a club and think you are exceeding wise to give your heads up to your loyalists in this regard.
If Markos had anything to do with Hackett's demise I feel that he was wrong. But I will watch and wait and watch, like most of us here, I think he is right about many things.





"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG


As I Wrote On DKOS ... (10.00 / 1)
Thank you for this courageous diary. Everytime I read knee jerk reactions on DKOS to anyone who dares write something critical my visceral reaction is, "me thinks you doth protest too much." Armando's comments on the diary you highlighted is exhibit A. At times the DKOS community abandons allegiance to principle in favor of expediency. Thankfully we still have MSOC and a few others as bullshit detectors. DKOS is an important and worthy community. But I'm especially greatful we have communities such as My Left Wing, Booman Tribune and Epluribus Media where principle is favored over expediency.

Intrepid Liberal Journal

Maryscott, I suspect we can never truly know who is being honest with themselves, let alone with us. (9.00 / 1)
Dear Maryscott . . .

I knew nothing of your earlier escapades.  The snippet of history you shared at your birthday party was all the information I had.  Admittedly, I ignore the deeper doings at Daily Kos.  At times, I think I want to know desperately; yet I realize my desire is truly mixed.

This diary brings another story to mind.

Years ago, I was gathering signatures for a local candidate.  Apparently, I was more dedicated than any other person helping on his campaign, though I did not know this at the time.  I was doing what was important to me.  Ultimately, I was asked to become his Campaign Coordinator.  What an honor.  I learned that many others were actually seeking this position.  I was not.  The thought had never entered my mind. 

I was told by a good friend, a man of substance, if I took this job, I would become “hardened” by the reality of a campaign.  I said I would not; I would quit first.  I did decide to work for this man believing he would represent the community well.  As the drive progressed, I realized that the political contender was not running in order to promote his personal philosophies per se.  Nor was I hired to “organize,” “administer,” or “conduct operations.”  The focus was on “public relations,” power, and the almighty buck.

These were separate from what I think is important, the “people” and the “issues.”  A prominent “image management” firm was handling the campaign, with the help of a major financial backer.

I decided to leave the position and continue to be and believe as I always have.  I wonder; is this what you are doing and expressing.

I prefer, as I think you do, integrity, diligence, and persons that care for all people equally.  I crave an active and honest person, one whose philosophical and practical bent parallels my own.  I recognize Progressive politics are rarely in favor.  The process towards change will be a long one.  Yet, I know I must persist.  I believe this is why you are writing as you are.

Maryscott, I suspect we can never truly know who is being honest with themselves, let alone with us.  We can only grasp a sense of what is true.  We can only hope that people we once admired will remain esteemed.

It is only the giving that makes us what [who] we are. - Ian Anderson. Jethro Tull . . . Betsy
BeThink.org


The better choice... (6.00 / 1)
Admittedly, I ignore the deeper doings at Daily Kos.  At times, I think I want to know desperately; yet I realize my desire is truly mixed.

Really, ignoring the "deep doo" is much the better choice. 


[ Parent ]
Thank you. I think so. n/t (0.00 / 0)


It is only the giving that makes us what [who] we are. - Ian Anderson. Jethro Tull . . . Betsy
BeThink.org


[ Parent ]
I first read this over at DKos... (0.00 / 0)
...but didn't have the heart to comment on it over there. Images of Custer's Last Stand come to mind...

This is one of the best pieces of writing I have encountered in quite a while. It attacks a mindset with which I have grown increasingly frustrated.

I guess that passionate partisans are - to some extent - naturally prone to groupthink and demonizing. Funny how we can be so vocal about transparency in our leaders, but so defensive when questions arise about ourselves. Funny how we can make fun of the hate-mongering over at the right-wing watering holes, but so blind to it in our own.

I love your courage, MSOC. I admire your spunk. You write things that many of us would like to write, but don't have the courage to. Please don't let the attack dogs over there get you down. Don't let them sap your energy.

And keep up the fantastic work!


who let the catnip in? (9.50 / 4)
Yes, I'm back, because this is a topic I have some experience with - not only at dkos, but at BT and MLW.

First of all, anyone who doesn't think groupthink exists on these blogs is living in fantasy land. And yes Armando, that means you too. Just look at that recent "n-word" diary that was on the reco list at dkos. It was beyond the pale, but most of the commneters jumped right in without even thinking of the political and personal ramifications of this so-called attempt to neuter the n-word by "reclaiming" it. It was bullshit and it was groupthink. And you agreed with me, Armando.

Secondly, I was a victim of "don't tell us what the hell to do with our blog" groupthink right here on MLW. That was quite the experience.

Thirdly, I'm like public enemy #1 over at BT because some people imagine that I had something to do with a well-liked front-pager's departure. More groupthink.

So, I think I'm qualified to talk about this.

I sent MSOC a letter of suppport for her dkos diary even before I saw her get raked over the coals in the comments there - even though I have my differences with her. As I told her, the general issues of the diary were sadly overlooked by those who wanted to veer off into old fights instead.

Her message was clear: fear destroys free speech.

It's that simple.

Instead of facing that and talking about how to change it, many just decided to ignore it and insult her for daring to make the point.

And that, in my not so humble opinion, is bullshit.

Communities like these need to take a good look at whether they foster groupthink by avoiding the uncomfortable opinions that might hurt somebody else's feelings. I've often found that a particular group of friends will herd together like a pack and attempt to eat anyone who dares to criticize anyone in their little circle.

You want to end groupthink? Encourage true independence of thoughts and actions. Criticize anyone who deserves it and don't give anyone a free ride just because they're your 'friend' or because they belong to the same party or ideology as you do.

If we can't be honest, why the hell are we blogging? If we think we have to prop up our friends, we're telling them they're too damn weak to stand on their own. And, if we condone their bullshit, we are just as guilty as they are.

/end o rant and thank you for allowing me to do so

(I apologized for a tantrum I had with MSOC via e-mail after I stormed out of her the last time I posted a diary here. I hope she accepts that apology. If not, I'll understand. I can go off the deep end with the best of them at times).


YES, CATNIP!!! (10.00 / 1)
Her message was clear: fear destroys free speech.

It's that simple.

Instead of facing that and talking about how to change it, many just decided to ignore it and insult her for daring to make the point.

And that, in my not so humble opinion, is bullshit.

Communities like these need to take a good look at whether they foster groupthink by avoiding the uncomfortable opinions that might hurt somebody else's feelings. I've often found that a particular group of friends will herd together like a pack and attempt to eat anyone who dares to criticize anyone in their little circle.

You want to end groupthink? Encourage true independence of thoughts and actions. Criticize anyone who deserves it and don't give anyone a free ride just because they're your 'friend' or because they belong to the same party or ideology as you do.

If we can't be honest, why the hell are we blogging? If we think we have to prop up our friends, we're telling them they're too damn weak to stand on their own. And, if we condone their bullshit, we are just as guilty as they are.

Anf there it is.

AG

Government is the Entertainment Division of the Military-Industrial Complex.-Frank Zappa


[ Parent ]
Interesting (1.00 / 1)
It seems to me you complain of the opposite of what MSOC is complaining of.

That is folks NOT agreeing with Management at all.

Pretty fucking ironic.


[ Parent ]
BTw (0.00 / 0)
The notion of me holdng back is pretty dam n funny.

Why I even criticize you, and MSOC and gasp, even Markos.

WTF?


[ Parent ]
so it's groupthink if people disagree with you (11.00 / 4)
regardless of the reasons given, or their experience which contradicts, or the degree of insight that your post actually contained. and noone can independently come to the opinion that you missed the mark with a diary aimed at three different communities at once, it's gotta be because of the group mind.

got it.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat


[ Parent ]
And don't you dare forget it! (0.00 / 0)
Armando is the only one who is ever right all the time and don't you ever forget it. 

[ Parent ]
Irony (0.00 / 0)
No it isn't. That was my sanrk at MSOC's rdiciulous charge.

Think a bit about it.


[ Parent ]
Confusion about who wu ming.... (0.00 / 0)
...was responding to in that comment.  I don't believe it was about anything you said, specifically it was about one person's charge of "groupthink" is another person's affirmation of legitimate agreement.  I believe a similar point to what you made elsewhere?


“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live”--Oscar Wilde

[ Parent ]
See pyrrho's diary (0.00 / 0)
I think he was referring to me.

[ Parent ]
Jesus H. Christ! (9.50 / 2)
I tried to post this comment over at Daily Kos and it keeps failing. I tried three or four times.

Looks like you hit a nerve, Maryscott!

Last I looked several hours ago, there were around 500 comments.

So then I left to go read the newspaper while I had a very late lunch at Denny's.

And on the way back, I saw the Minutemen at Hollywood and Argyle, about to march. Lots of American flags waving painfully and reluctantly in the breeze. (Guys, patriotism is the FIRST refuge of the scoundrel.) The cops wouldn't let me cross the street to join the anti-racism protesters at the Hollywood and Vine Metro Station. So I stood with a bunch of other passersby on the other side of the street and we all joined in at shouting at the Minutemen.

Racists, go home!

And stuff like that.

The LAPD were everywhere! Well, not exactly everywhere. They congregated where the pro-immigration protesters were standing and pretty much left the Minutemen supporters alone. Because the pro-immigration people were a bunch of dirty Mexicans about to cause trouble? And the Minutemen supporters were a bunch of nice, peaceful white people who were genuinely concerned about the well-being of the state and the nation?

Not exactly. (One of the Minutemen supporters had wrapped a flag around her dog (to show how patriotic he was, I guess). Using a flag for dog clothing is SURELY a most flagrant desecration of the flag! I'm going to write the Citizen's Flag Alliance! What's that? She was from the Citizen's Flag Alliance? Never mind.)

So I come home and Maryscott's diary has almost 1000 comments at Daily Kos!

Wow!

I say, Lawrence, are these people dangerous? They don't seem too pleased to see us. - Winston Churchill


That last (6.00 / 1)
is not necessarily a good thing.

One of the reasons I'm almost never at dKos anymore...I got tired of wading through reams of bullshit, usually of the order either of "Right on!" or "Fuck off!", disguised as comments.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
Something is Rotten in Blogmark? (2.80 / 5)

And you are just noticing it now?

Sorry, Maryscott...BEEN rotten. Since at LEAST the refusal to allow discussion of the election fraud in Ohio. If not before.

Too many hustlers spoil the pie fight.

Always and forever.

You want accountability?

Don't engage in unaccountable activities.

Duh.

And dKos?

Cut 'em loose, Maryscott.

Be your OWN blogmark.

Let THEM drink the Kos-Aide.

Choose your friends well.

AND your allies.

And your "warm acquaintances" too.

You have outgrown them, Maryscott. As have a great many of us.

They are already over...a "Letters to the Editor" blog for the new Time Magazine.

Step away.

AG

P.S. ARMANDO...GO LITIGATE A WAL MART CONTRACT.

You, Commandante Markos and the rest of them over there are just Smoke Filled Rooms v.2. Another rotten Democratic old boys club hustling each others' allies and employers for pieces of the pie fight.

Only the smoke isn't from cigars, it's from your own overworked egos.

Long walk, short pier.

Please, just go away from here.

Jesus.

Next thing we know DHinMI will appear, trying to swing HIS little brass balls around.

Government is the Entertainment Division of the Military-Industrial Complex.-Frank Zappa


P.P.S. (10.00 / 2)
Dkos coulda been a contender.

Now it's just a contractor.

AG

Government is the Entertainment Division of the Military-Industrial Complex.-Frank Zappa


[ Parent ]
Do you actually believe the shit that you write? (0.00 / 0)
Just curious.

I've seen some of your petulant diatribes before, but this has to be one of your classics.

You go Lefty.


[ Parent ]
Do I believe what I write? (1.00 / 3)

Yes, I do.

Are you so deaf, so dumb that you cannot tell that?

Petulant diatribe?

Dkos is rotten through and through.

If you cannot smell that,.,..after the refusal to allow posts about the election fraud, after the pie fight brouhaha, the July 4th masscre/tinfoil hat thing, the gradual diminutiion of intelligence in most of the posts and comments and the concomitant ascendency of some sort of pack mind there, the tacit acceptance of the reign of cyberbullies like DHinMI and HIS blogmates, the various tactical shuffles of the leadership in an attempt to stay...stay WHAT, exactly, other than totally false...the disastrous symbolic choice of Las Vegas (The absolute WORST symbol of the corporate Disneyfication of America that could have possibly been chosen as a place to have a left wing meeting here in MediAmerica, 2006.), the ummasking of Armando as a conscienceless and aggressively unapologetic lawyer for the DisneyCorpse-ish motherfuckers that are turning this nation into a population of mindless, TV addicted serfs, let ALONE the "appearance of impropriety" in the buddy buddy, wink-wink/nudge-nudge support/non-support of Warner...

If you cannot smell THAT?

Then I got yer diatribe, right HERE!!!

"You go Lefty?" (Snark, of course.)

Check out the name of this blog.

My Left Wing.

Snark is all you've GOT, you Kossaddicts.

And snark is weak.

Go snipe at each other over at little Orange.

This country NEEDS a left wing.

"Coldblue Steele" my ass.

Dkos is made out of recycled aluminum foil and duct tape.

I have NEVER seen any steel there.

Never.

Clever and weak.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Just what we fucking need.

AG

Government is the Entertainment Division of the Military-Industrial Complex.-Frank Zappa


[ Parent ]
Harsh (11.00 / 1)
but with a lot of truth!

Right now on dKos there is a diary about America's "Unbearable Shame" that the (dare I say it) Kultists are goo-goo about, that pretends that George W. Bush and Dick Cheney invented our miserable foreign policy or that since 2000 is the first time America has ever tortured anyone (let alone carpet-bombed entire provinces that lacked clean running water)

The complete lack of historical knowledge over there makes Time Magazine look fucking smart.

An hour and a half's drive from where Bush stood, the US military ran the notorious School of the Americas from 1946 to 1984, a sinister educational institution that, if it had a motto, might have been "We do torture." It is here in Panama and, later, at the school's new location in Fort Benning, Georgia, where the roots of the current torture scandals can be found...

Some of the Panama school's graduates returned to their countries to commit the continent's greatest war crimes of the past half-century: the murders of Archbishop Oscar Romero and six Jesuit priests in El Salvador, the systematic theft of babies from Argentina's "disappeared" prisoners, the massacre of 900 civilians in El Mozote in El Salvador and military coups too numerous to list here. Suffice it to say that choosing Panama to declare "We do not torture" is a little like dropping by a slaughterhouse to pronounce the United States a nation of vegetarians.



'What can I do?' - SiCKO

[ Parent ]
Arthur (11.00 / 1)
I registered here just to respond to your thread's worth of bitching, but don't get a big head over it or anything.

I've been at dKos for two years now.  Yeah, it has its problems, but what site doesn't?  It's a large community, and shit happens.

Honestly, though, you and Edencho have spent so much goddamn time bitching about what's wrong with Kos, and why you're so much purer than the rest, and the last time I checked, we were here to forment change in our government, and instead y'all are wasting time with this bitchfest.

We will never achieve the ends we desire if we spend more time kicking the hell out of each other over our "purity."

I disagreed with both richards and MSOC, and I did it civilly, and MSOC was kind enough to give me a four at dKos for what I said.

Right now, I want to win.  It's great that we have true dissent, in fact, it's what makes us better than the lemmings that make up the right's base.  But I want to win, and if we don't win, then we'll just continue the uselessness of dragged-out fights like this.  I honestly cannot take it any longer.

The original diarist was incorrect, IMO.  We've had a dialogue about it, and I suggested he correct the errors, not delete like Armando suggested.  MSOC, in trying to initiate dialogue about an important issue, defended a diary that was off the mark from the factual standpoint, and I told her that.  I have a lot of respect for her.

However, Arthur, I have none for you, because I have not seen you address the substance of anything, instead, you and ed hijacked this thread to bitch about the almighty Kos.  Please, dear Lord, get off your soapbox and find something else to do, some better use of your time, like helping a Dem out in a congressional race, or bugging the hell out of your GOP rep (if you have one), or protesting, or working to correct voter fraud.

Your time here has been incredibly counterproductive and wasteful.  You aren't helping the cause with your behavior.  Get over the "abuse" you took and do something to make our great nation better off.


[ Parent ]
P.S. (9.00 / 2)

"You go, lefty."

The BASIS of the whole dKos phenomemon.

Dkos's core belief.

A REAL left-wing cannot win here.

Americans are too...inferior. To YOU smartasses. They have to be fooled. Cajoled. Lulled even further into some form of centrist sleep.

OK...so I'll tell you what.

Just once...let's TRY it.

Somehow the people with fire and intelligence and courage and eloquence on the left never make it to the big game.

They get shot down.

Often quite literally.

Or their plane happens to fall out of the air.

Or they get "ARRRRGHED!!!"

PROVE it.

We've certainly had our share...and MORE...of RIGHT wing administrations.

Step out of the way.

Just this once.

Stop Humphrey-Hump-Humping the real left wingers...Feingold, Conyers, Dean on his good days.

Stop putting up centrist weaklings like Kerry.

Or worse.

And let's see.

If it doesn't work...why then I guess that you are right. And I will literally shut my pie hole for the duration...the short duration if we do not quickly get our act together, I believe... of the rest of America's time on center stage.

But until we TRY it, we'll never know, will we?

Or is that your real job? Yours and the DHinMI-like people who resemble you.

Making SURE that we never know.

Push, shove or get out of the way.

We certainly can't lose any worse than we have for the last 60 years, can we?

Time to go whole hog plus postage.

Just this once.

Try it. You might learn to LIKE winning.

Or not...

AG

Government is the Entertainment Division of the Military-Industrial Complex.-Frank Zappa


[ Parent ]
What you fail to understand (9.00 / 1)
is that Kos has repeatedly stated his goal is a Democratic majority, and that Democrats have to reach out more to those in the center, or those who agree with us on many issues but are culturally conservative.

To go nuts over left-wing "purity" when that's not his goal is ricockulous.

You sound so fucking bitter that it's sad.  I've taken lumps from Kos too, and I dust myself off and move along.  Try it yourself.


[ Parent ]
Are you the one who commented civilly... (0.00 / 0)
on Silverstein's diary -- the one that was centerpieced in Maryscott's, that took the abuse? From your tone here, I think you may have been the sole civil post in disagreement I saw. The rest were long on disagreement, short on civility, if I recall correctly.

Now, that said, just let me say this to you, wolverine, in response to your message above, in the event that you will ever check back here to look.

Go look at what you wrote.

What you fail to understand (0.00 / 0)
is that Kos has repeatedly stated his goal is a Democratic majority, and that Democrats have to reach out more to those in the center, or those who agree with us on many issues but are culturally conservative.

To go nuts over left-wing "purity" when that's not his goal is ricockulous.

Then think about the genesis, the core seed that started the hopeful attempts to make a difference via blogs like Daily Kos. It was in utter frustration with not only the Bush admin, but also, largely, with the DLCed Dems - the MUST reach out to Center drones. Because they had been, and continue, doing the exact same thing you laud Markos and his faithful for doing.

Do you not find it just a mite (please stretch that "mite" mightily) ironic? Rich?

If you do, then perhaps you can understand the anger of a poster like Arthur Gilroy, and, believe me, he is not alone. You are defending a New Boss Same As The Old Boss. Dont you think the DLC had the same response to the base when they complained: Purity wont win votes! Trawl the center! Center center center! We want to win!

Have you ever seen the DLC challenge their faithful, publicly, to state what Democrats stand for? I did. From did it on Cspan with newbie governors and a crowd. They, to a person, couldnt do it. It was pathetic. They tried. But they, these govs, had been DLCed and therein goes your message. How about trying principles and well-stated messages around them to win? When you are too busy filling your tent with Ben Nelsons, and applauding them just for not being as mouthy as Joementum, while they vote far more Republican than Joe, youve lost it. Sound familiar?

???

I despair of the mirrors gone missing by the most ardent Kossacks. It's truly appalling.

When I see nightprowlkitty, who would more aptly be named "deputy dawg," calling DK a liberal blog, I dont know whether to laugh or cry. Once you start to aim for winning at all costs, including abandoning liberal principles, or perhaps just failing to embrace those you never really had, liberal has got absolutely nothing to do with it. Not a thing.


[ Parent ]
The point I'm trying to make is that (6.00 / 1)
Kos is progressive, yet he also wants to expand the tent, bringing in guys like Jim Webb, and the guys in Kansas who left the GOP.  Liberals and Democrats are two different things.  And Daily Kos is liberal not because of Markos, but because of its membership. 

You can reach out to that elusive center two ways: One, by bowing to their wishes and hitting your knees, or two, you can bring your values to them and show them how they reconcile with those of the center.

I think Markos is trying to do number two (and no, I don't mean crap).  He deserves credit for what he's doing, and ultimately, we're all fighting for the same goal.  A Dem majority means there will be a majority of liberals/progressives in power.  Let's not forget that.

And yes, that was me.


[ Parent ]
I'm with you, Maryscott (6.00 / 1)
[I came over from Kos and registered an account here just so I might be heard above the din.]

First of all, you're absolutely right. There needs to be a standard for transparency and accountability  established just to avoid any appearance of impropriety in Kos' part when he blogs his endorsements and other opinions. I understand that you never accused Kos of acting improperly, too. But appearances matter in politics. In fact, they're everything.

That said -- and I think you would agree with me on this at this point -- you didn't frame your point as gracefully as you should have. Ironically, here is where you got caught on the wrong side of the appearances game, because even as you took great pains later in your post to define who you were and were not criticizing, the overall critical tone (even of yourself!) in your opening grafs misled casual readers. So I would accuse you here of handling a delicate subject inartfully as a writer. Not exactly a cardinal sin, but you saw what can happen when people get the wrong message.

If I were your editor, I probably would have suggested leading with the disclaimers as a way of insuring up front that your complaint was not with anything Kos had done, but rather the community's tendency to circle the wagons and react emotionally to criticism that it should consider calmly at an intellectual level. Oh well, tomorrow's another day, huh?

I prefer my pants hyperbolic.


I'm not sure (6.00 / 2)
that putting the disclaimers up front would have made any difference over there. In fact, I venture to say it would not have.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
Hmm. I think that's a touch cynical. (6.00 / 1)
Look at how she did open:

Sometimes I am embarrassed to call myself a member of DKos.

This is one of those times.

There is a sort of groupthink, Lord of the Flies kind of behaviour at DKos over certain issues that absolutely makes me nauseated.

So her lede is this: She is embarrassed and nauseated over Lord of the Flies style groupthink at dKos. Speaking only for myself, a longtime but very spare contributor over there, my first reaction to this was, "What the hell did I do?"

Then of course I read the rest and it had nothing to do with me. But my defenses were up first thing.

Maryscott is brilliant at that kind of polemic. Honestly, she's one of the best at turning anger and frustration into words of rage. I think that's wonderful and entirely necessary when dealing with people who do not operate in good faith (read: Republicans). It's not so helpful in trying to convince would-be should-be allies to function at a higher level than they have been.

Truthfully, I think it's a damn shame that people can't let go of their own egos and emotional reactions to see what she was actually trying to get across -- I would much rather write for an audience that was always willing to extend me some benefit of the doubt if I didn't get a point across as explicitly as I should have, or as strongly. But dKos has gotten way too big for that now. That place truly is a textbook example of the messiness of democracy. And let's be totally honest: democracy is pretty far from perfect, utterly rife with shortcomings. But it's also the best thing we've got, so we have to learn to love it in spite of its warts. Same with the dKos community, I'm afraid.

I prefer my pants hyperbolic.


[ Parent ]
I don't think I'm being cynical (6.00 / 1)
I joined there just after the "pie fights", but I have noticed the pile-on when certain topics were mentioned over the months I was on regularly there; one of the reasons (along with getting my own voice heard from time to time) I'm not there much anymore.

It didn't seem to matter how politely or disarmingly they were introduced: certain topics---stolen elections in Florida and Ohio being among them---garnered an immediate shout-down, complete with ad hominem attacks.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
<Cautious exit from lurk-hole> (6.00 / 1)
Indeed. Fear destroys free speech.

MSOC: your commentary here and at dKos is, IMO, providing a real service to the blogosphere in general, and to dKos in particular. It's called constructive criticism. It's what friends do for those who are unwilling or unable to engage in critical self-examination.

Your latest post reminded me of a comment I made on the "In Defense of the Safe Space" post (7/2/06) in which I said:

I am here because MLW appears to be tolerant, and doesn't "automatically ban" people, and doesn't have verboten subjects, and the people don't appear to be caught up in "gaining mojo" and "troll rating." If I'm wrong about this, someone tell me and I'll be moving along to find another blog to lurk.

It seems rather ironic to me that the reaction to your post at dKos illustrates perfectly the title of the post.

As for your comment (RE: You have GOT to be kidding me), in which you said: "ARE THERE FORBIDDEN TOPICS HERE? Please, someone, fucking ENLIGHTEN me, because I'll fucking REFRAIN from posting about them here. UNBELIEVABLE."

In case you were not being facitious, and if you haven't read the dKos FAQ lately, that is entirely possible: Yes. There are forbidden topics. Specifically Markos has personally prohibited any post concerning "conspiracy theories." From [http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/DailyKos_FAQ#Controversial_Diary_Topics]
-----------------------------------------------
  The conspiracists by kos
  Fri Jul 08, 2005

Today I did something I've never done before (not even during the Fraudster mess), and wish I'd never had to do.

I made a mass banning of people perpetuating a series of bizarre, off-the-wall, unsupported and frankly embarassing conspiracy theories.

I have a high tolerance level for material I deem appropriate for this site, but one thing I REFUSE to allow is bullshit conspiracy theories. You know the ones -- Bush and Blair conspired to bomb London in order to take the heat off their respective political problems. I can't imagine what fucking world these people live in, but it sure ain't the Reality Based Community.

So I banned these people, and those that have been recommending diaries like it. And I will continue to do so until the purge is complete, and make no mistake -- this is a purge.

This is a reality-based community. Those who wish to live outside it should find a new home. This isn't it.
-------------------------------------------------

Immediately following is:

Controversial 9/11 Diaries

DailyKos accepts that the 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by agents of Al-Qaeda. It is forbidden to write diaries that:

1)refer to claims that American, British, Israeli, or any government assisted in the attacks
2)refer to claims that the airplanes that crashed into the WTC and Pentagon were not the cause of the damage to those buildings or their subsequent collapse
Authoring or recommending these diaries may result in banning from Daily Kos.

I have also seen references to the 2000/2004 elections, but I can't cite sources or details.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." -A.Einstein


For what its worth... (6.00 / 1)
...and maybe not much at this point. I think over at DKOS you got done in by a case of more is less and less is more. Your general point that certain subjects... specifically the relationship between consulting and blogging... are taboo because they intersect directly with Kos' existence... is germain and vital, but then... by getting into the specifics of the whole Jerome of it all you stumbled into a rehashing the specifics. The specifics, where your diary was concerned, were essentially irrelevant when compared to your central theme.

I hope you all don't mind if I digress - (11.00 / 2)
Especially you, Maryscott - as this wonderful diary of yours is rather significant.  It highlights free speech issues – something that must be looked at and discussed - but I'd like to insert a small touch of reality here.  This argument rages on here and at KOS - people attack and insult each other over what, exactly?  Thoughts.  Opinions.  Ideas.  All of which are important, yes; but there are realities out there - and I'm going to tell you about a very small one.  While I sit here reading and typing - I am hand-feeding my cat because she is dying.  I know this.  I know she has only weeks left - but still I try and I hope.  She won’t eat unless it is me feeding her, you see.  So I tempt her with tiny bites – anything she wants – if only she’ll eat.  I've had her for 14 years, and she deserves what little I can do to make her life easier, better.

Now - this is a small thing, I know.  Others are dealing with monumental health and family situations for themselves or for their parents.  One tiny striped cat is insignificant when balanced against the much larger tapestry of life issues we all must confront every day.  But this is mine.  Now.  So please allow me to point out that not one syllable of bombast and posturing littering either site affects my reality, or the realities of anyone else.  You may think you are a god within your own self-created universe – but you haven’t the ability to change one single moment of mine.  I only wish that you could.

Deux ex Machina


I know how you feel (5.00 / 1)
We lost ours last summer to stomach cancer.

It's like a little part of you is cut out.

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future


[ Parent ]
I did that, too (6.00 / 2)
and did fluids under the skin of another for about six months.

It's sad they live such a relatively short time. The best we can do is help them die content.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
Terrible, sorry (0.00 / 0)
Reality can be so cruel.....


[ Parent ]
READ THIS (0.00 / 0)
My 1st dkos discourse; and probably last.  Worth the read.  Never, until the end, was I disrespectful.  But this is what COULD happen here.  For the record, me o' person of peace, really badly thinks armando is being a low life ass sucking loves the sound of his own voice prick, for no other reason, than he likes it.  You all know Im a pacifist, buyt here is why:

There are "cultists" on every blog, and I rarely post here, am more of a lurker, because I fear the reaction of the masses.  I am neither soft spoken or non- opinionated. heh.

I am more so at your site msoc, but there still are people who are not. And they are ok too. I am not your favorite , by any means, my open letter to mlw was met with a nine, no matter how kind, and another's lately got an 11 and a personal thank you. Conversly, I have openly disagreed with you, and once had the class to take it private, and got your point and was good with it.  That is what thinking people do.  Poeple are people, but this troll-rating shit is ridiculous.

This kind of shout-down behaviour is too Fox-newslike to me, and I'm glad you pointed it out.

As a newbie here, reading the original post, I would have thougt Markos himself would have said what he said in the answering diary, and probably said "point made" about how he could possibly be discredited for the suggestion of impropriety.  That is what the Repugs do, we all know it.  Look for an unbsubstantiated weak link and report it to death, no matter how untue.

I thought it was kind, and gave him(kos) a chance to tell those who would opress him what IS!  I think Markos is intelligent enough to respond in fact, with out all the sycophants(sp?)yammering.

by wiretapthis on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 04:37:39 PM PDT

[ Reply to This ]

  Markos has (3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:missliberties, Warren Terrer, Nightprowlkitty
It is incredible that you wrote such a comment when you have no idea what you are talking about.

Ok, semi-retired from blogging. Returning fulltime in December.

by Armando on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 06:20:42 PM PDT

[ Parent | Reply to This |Recommend  ]

 

i knew he had (0 / 0)
that was my point.  I do have an idea, apparently you do not.  Markos responded much more intelligently, and graciously than you have.  And this diary gave him the opportyunity to do so in print.
Im not incredible, appparently by concensus, you are.

by wiretapthis on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 08:27:03 PM PDT

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

  By consensus I am? (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:missliberties
What are you playing Groupthink?

MArkos does not have to answer every stupid diary that pretends not to know the facts.

Ok, semi-retired from blogging. Returning fulltime in December.

by Armando on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 08:34:11 PM PDT

[ Parent | Reply to This |Recommend  ]

  * [new] Armando (0 / 0)

I really so dont care what you think, you have ubsustantiatedly called this diary wrong, and the last one.  You have no defense of "groupthink" when a group here attacked a diary that was well-intended.

Any SMART person would heed the warning that the repugs could lambast them with this kind of innuendo.  It was a question and warning. No he does not HAVE to respond, but better forewarned and forarmed against the REAL enemy.

You are way too fond of your own voice and have wasted our keystrokes here and at mlw....I think you are not even a worthy adversary.  You are beneath my radar range.

So that said, and I know not the rules here, suck my ass.  You are just being mean for attention.  Get over yourself.  I wont waste my time.

 

by wiretapthis on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 09:06:00 PM PDT

That said, I have officially been an asshole tonite, and I just dont care!



nope, and got my 1st troll rating too (0.00 / 0)
over it.  why would I have mutiple accts?

[ Parent ]
Christ Almighty! (0.00 / 0)
Now I remember why I don't participate at Daily Kos anymore...1000+ comments on MSOC's diary, and every other one of those a kerfuffle with Armando (some things never change). When strict rule following and crazy troll-rating began to get in the way of earnest political discussion, it was time for ohgrl to go (and I hate people who immediately dismiss other posters because their UID is over 50). I left DK some time ago, and I really don't miss it.

Anyhoo, MSOC, I agree--when a net personality becomes popular enough to influence readers' minds, votes & and wallets, it's important to be transparent. Seems like the right thing to do. And I am sorry to see that for saying this and defending richard1052, that the very intimidation and pileups you mention in your diary are all over your [endless] comment section. It's really discouraging to see the insults and calls to delete diaries/dissent. Jeez people, aren't those the same reasons we fight Bushcorp?

[ok, back to semi-lurk status. It's gotta be 90 degrees in here with the computer on...man i hate the Valley & its 8 months of summer]


I second that about the Valley n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Party Building Is A Bitch (0.00 / 0)
I remember the McGovern convention that tossed the Party Bosses out, and applauded the grassroots movement I'd participated in, then.  But, watching the resultant PACs and Star Candidates representing Big Donors wandering about like a herd of donkeys grazing, spouting bumper-sticker slogans vetted by free-booting consultants, rather than bringing a United Front of progressive policy options to the National Debate, I came to rethink the value of a Party with some discipline.

However, I fear that Kos valued the "Party Line" as we receive it today, over the values upon which we wish to rebuild the Democratic Party in the Hackett affair.  I'm with MSOC on this one, I'm afraid.

A Party with a Voice needs 'Deciders' of our own, and THEY ain't in D.C.

If the BBB can't be our latter-day Boss Daley, and have the courage of their convictions, then what's the point of "Candidate Politics" over "Issue Politics"?


New member here... (6.00 / 1)
MaryScott, I know it wasn't your intention to drive more traffic to your site with your diary entry on dKos, but you know what they say about best intentions.

One of the most interesting comments at dKos was {to paraphrase) that there are many other topics we should be discussing which have more impact on the important upcoming 2006 elections than an inward look at our blogging behavior.

This seemed to strike you as a good comment, and me too for awhile.  And then I thought about it some more.

Better to look inwardly in early July in the attempt to avoid problems down the road, than to be forced to deal with some of these internal blogging issues in September and October.

I draw a parallel here to our national discourse.  Along with getting the country back on the right track, we have to examine why the national discourse is so out of whack.  Not until almost all voices in all the different media recognize that the well is poisoned, will we be able to start healing America with some sort of antidote to the abysmal sickness in our national discourse.  To me, it's almost more important than getting Rep. ABC, or Sen. XYZ elected.

So yeah... writing about how we speak to one another within the liberal blogosphere is important to talk about... here in July.


DKos...A legend in their minds only. (10.00 / 2)
MSOC is right. I applaud her straighforwardness.

Thinking I was liberal democrat, I use to take part in the dkos site and eventually found out I was actually more of a centrist, even though I suscribe to the same views on important issues like health care, executive power and seperation of church and state.

I wrote a few dairies that always ended up on the "high impact list", whatever that means. And had trusted user status also, whatever that means. But was not one of the regulars or star recommended writers by any means.

However out of the blue, I was banned along with what I gather from comments elsewhere, a lot of other posters at the same time. No reason given.

Which was really just as well and I can't say I miss contributing because it really was a waste of my particular time.

And because even prior to that it was pretty obvious to me that dkos was a site aimed strictly at promoting "their" brand of democrats and that they wanted to eventually become the "establishment" dems...in other words , no real change, just different owners.

Another thing was the kindergarden Lord of the Flies syndrome where members ran in packs with their troll rating weapons and followers do what they always do, follow, in place of thinking for themselves. the longer I was there the more there seemed to be this growing "inbreeding".

It's too bad in a way because Kos hit upon an excellent way of attracting people by letting them excerise their egos in print and could have been a real force for real change. However to me it was also apparent that Marcos wanted to be "a player" in politics, that the "welfare" of the country wasn't his main concern...perhaps "a concern" but not his main concern.

What I think has happened to kos and why I think they have now been called out as just another  type of dishonest blog with establishment hopes is you can't mix money and personal ambitions with ideals. The creditibily is gone. And also the fact that he lost control of his own vehicle by letting his favored blog "controllers" run wild like school hall monitors and alienate too many people.

In short, there is no there there for anyone who really is looking to add their efforts to a group for  real change. It's a useless and a somewhat replusive mentality to democrats like me. And what they don't get is that they have turned into the evil twin of the other extreme.



perspective and priorities (11.00 / 4)
I said my peace over at orange

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2006/7/8/145235/7711/132#132

so I won't ramble on here too much.

I understand everyone's concerns and complaints. To those who have wrongfully sligted others... shame on you. To those that have been slighted... I'm sorry that this has happened to you. BUT after months of meta, flames, and introspection it's time to move on. Someone commented that these issues keep coming up because they have not been resolved properly... well you know what...maybe they never will be.

Now we can either keep rehashing these issues in hopes of somehow reaching some sort of mutually acceptable solution, or we can accept our "communities" for what they are and move on and try to do something more meaningful. What if we just agree that our communities are like extended families... they contain not only those we love and respect, but also a crazy uncle or two, and even an ass-hole brother-in-law. And like our families, our communities are not perfect... but they are our communities.

There is such a vast pool of talent and intelligence in these communities, to waste it arguing like schoolchildren saddens me greatly.

To those that have been particularly targeted and preyed upon by the bullies and thought police, I truely understand your pain and I know no amount of meta will undo the damage done.

As some of you know, I do immigration issues. Almost exclusively. As such I walk a minefield with every diary I write and comment I make. I've been flamed and troll rated more times than I'd like to remember. Keeping TU status at dKos ... gave that notion up ages ago. Even here at the more tolerant MLW I've been attacked and have taken a hiatus or two from all community sites to work off on my own little blog until things cooled down. On both sites I've had the "kool-kids" come on occasion and take a dump on a diary and kill it with a comment or two ... shit happens.

But it really is time to move on. There's just too much important shit we should be concentrating on. Or do we have to wait until the next Alito comes along, or another terrible Wednesday morning in November when we ask  "How the fuck did that happen?" until we put all this shit behind us and start to work together to harness the power we have to get something done?

 

Migra Matters: progressive immigration reform



Hey MSOC (0.00 / 0)
Don't let the people over at DailyKos get you down. I've been a member over there since 2004 and although I don't post over there as much as I used to, I want to say that I've always enjoyed your diaries and your passion for the issues that you care about. Keep up the good work and keep fighting!

Live and learn from our mistakes... (0.00 / 0)
that's all we can do--and it often seems a tall enough order to fill just by itself.

  Not a member of any cult of personality, I applaud what I find worthy and criticize what I find worthy of criticism--whoever it comes from.  That said, _many_ are the times your insights and analyses have dazzled me.

  Defend what to you is right, attack what is wrong, and, keeping in mind that all of us are always mistaken in some things we believe, be ready to recognize your errors and correct them.

  You do this, it seems to me.

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.


Paul Hackett (0.00 / 0)
I'm a Deomocrat Abroad. Paul Hackett is one of the only politicians to come visit one of our meetings - Howard Dean being another (but that was in Toronto which is kinda cheating).

Paul Hackett is a politician I want to see. Honest, direct, a good speaker. So when I met him in Barcelona at our conference last year I knew I was going to be impressed.

I wasn't. I don't like how he was squeezed out, I don't know enough about Sherrod Brown to like or dislike him (though unlike Hackett, Brown has to overcome a vague negative feeling).

This doesn't have much to do with MOC's comments about Hackett, but I do worry people invest too much energy into him. And here's why:

As the meeting was wrapping up I bumped into Hackett on the sidewalk outside the hotel. He'd said a few things over the previous day or so that concerned me so I thought I'd ask about them. I can't recall them all, but I do remember his positive comments about Bob Casey as being something that concerned me.

So I asked if he knew about Chuck Penachio running in PA and what he thought about Dem leaders trying to push pro-life Casey down pro-choice PA voter's throats. Hackett was dismissive - saying he'd never heard of Penachio and that Casey was the guy who could win it.

I fear Hackett would have grown far too cozy, far too quickly once he found power. Something I find profoundly disappointing. I hope I'm wrong - and if my fears were right I hope his experience this past year has made him less inclined to that fate.

I like the idea I had of who Paul Hackett was. I fear too many people didn't get a chance to have the quick chat with the actual Paul Hackett. Most of us support our ideal of Candidate X rather than who Candidate X actually is. Few Candidate X's would meet muster. But in my eyes Hackett fell far short at this point and I'm not sure our unconditional loyalty for him is best for his political growth.

I like your stuff MOC and I don't agree with Kos's post-withdrawal analysis (it sounded familiar). Kos is not well served unconditional loyalty either. But as things stood after Barcelona I'm not too sure you'd have been happy with Senator Hackett years down the road. Kos was wrong, but I think he had a fair bit of company.

US citizen? Live overseas? Had Enough? Then register to vote at http://www.VoteFromAbroad.com

Shhh! 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 (HD-DVD processing key)


Re: Hackett (0.00 / 0)
I like the idea I had of who Paul Hackett was. I fear too many people didn't get a chance to have the quick chat with the actual Paul Hackett. Most of us support our ideal of Candidate X rather than who Candidate X actually is. Few Candidate X's would meet muster. But in my eyes Hackett fell far short at this point and I'm not sure our unconditional loyalty for him is best for his political growth.

No, most of us don't support our ideal whatever!  Most of us live in the real world with people that disappoint us all the time.  Why would we hold politicians to a higher standard than our friends and family?  Especially considering our general expectations of politicians are down there with used car salesmen.

And no, Hackett is not getting any unconditional loyalty!  Where'd you get that?

Listen, I don't mean to come down hard here, but let's accept Hackett as a real live flesh and blood person.  One thing we know about Hackett is that he can run a helluva campaign with lots of good statements around the idea that this Bush administration is a total cluster fuck.  For that, Hackett should be commended.  On everything else we need to judge him on his real positions and real statements, not some projection on what we want him to be.

If you have some other substantive issues with Hackett from your experience at the Barcelona conference, then please share.


[ Parent ]
Substantive? (0.00 / 0)
The fact that he was already showing signs of wanting to be part of the in-crowd and dismissive of "outsiders" seemed worrisome. The fact that the specific people in question - Casey and Penachio - differ on whether women have the right to control their own bodies - well that seems substantial to me.

Maybe it doesn't to you.

The fact that Hackett can make good statements to the effect that the Bush admin is feckless is nice, but in all honesty I'm pretty sure any reasonable person with an IQ over 10 can accomplish that task. The Bush admin is going away, our guys need other tricks up their sleeves. And while taking the tough stand against Bush before crowds of progressives is nice, I'd like to see some more tough stands against the Democratic establishment that allowed Bush to eek through in the first place.

They might allow something even worse through next time.

US citizen? Live overseas? Had Enough? Then register to vote at http://www.VoteFromAbroad.com

Shhh! 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 (HD-DVD processing key)


[ Parent ]
Yes, substantive... not subjective (0.00 / 0)
The wanting to be part of the "in crowd" is entirely a subjective criticism.  You gave us 1 example without much context to his comment, and there isn't much context to be had because you admit your conversation was brief.  I don't like criticisms where the critic is trying to get inside the head of a subject.

I knew Hackett was conservative on some issues.  His stance backing Casey doesn't surprise me.  But again, I'm not trying to turn Hackett into some ideal candidate.

Sure, anyone can attack Bush, but it takes rare talent to do that and attract votes from a heavily Republican district.  I'm amazed you would be so dismissive of that fact.


[ Parent ]
Er... (0.00 / 0)
No, Hackett is not conservative on a woman's right to choose. Or rather he is - he doesn't believe the government should interefere with people's personal lives.

In his speech the day or so before he made that clear. He feels a woman should make her own medical decisions - just as he feels any American should make their own decisions on self-defense. I think the quote he made was something along the lines of, the government should stay out of wombs and gun cabinets.

And I give him credit - saying that in front of a progressive audience takes guts.

But to stand in front of us and rail rightfully against DNC interference in his race and support a woman's right to chose - and then dismiss a challenger like Penachio who is dealing with DNC interference and who supports a woman's right to choose. That's not a good sign to me.

There are reasons not to support Penachio and to support Casey - but a dismissive, "never heard of him," is not one.

It doesn't make Hackett the anti-Christ. It doesn't make Hackett worse than Brown. It's a datapoint and that's all I offered it as. I went there liking Hackett and I left a little concerned about who we might be getting. That's all.

US citizen? Live overseas? Had Enough? Then register to vote at http://www.VoteFromAbroad.com

Shhh! 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 (HD-DVD processing key)


[ Parent ]
Thanks... (0.00 / 0)
for the extended explanation.  Your position makes more sense with the greater context that you provided.

[ Parent ]


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