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History Did Not Start in 1967- Another Israel Diary

by: dhonig

Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:14:44 AM PDT



(It's worth discussing, ain't it? NO FLAMING, please. If we can't have a passionate discussion about the Middle East without devolving into insults and shouting, I'll just demote the damned thing. - promoted by Maryscott O'Connor)


(It's a repost from an old comment, never a diary, but worth considering again as the hyperbole ramps up) -- dhonig

HISTORY DID NOT START IN 1967.  Really, the idea that Israel, attacked in '48 and "occupied" in much of its territory, is obligated to accept, not as an initial but as a FINAL negotiation point, the pre-'67 (Arab occupation '48 war) borders is absurd.  However, nobody talks about what happened before '67.  Instead, they pretend the '67 borders were the original, and that Israel began a war of colonization.  That did not happen.  Not only that, but during the Arab occupation Jews received far worse treatment that the Palestinians today.  So let's look at the way back machine, and perhaps have some understanding of what the hell we are talking about.

Crossposted at Daily Kos.




dhonig :: History Did Not Start in 1967- Another Israel Diary


Before WWI, NONE Of the nations of the Middle East east of the Suez existed. They were all part of the Ottoman Empire.  Everything there is a false western construct. Remember that when you complain about the British creating Israel.

The League of Nations Mandate of 1920 looked like this

The British altered that mandate in 1923, to create a Palestinian nation and a Jewish nation.  The Palestinian nation was Transjordan, the Jewish nation was Palestine:

After WWII the UN partitioned the land again.  It was partitioned to match population concentrations, and to make as few people move from one place to the other as possible.  Additionally, Jerusalem was an international city, available to all worshipers:

This is what the UN ultimately voted on:

The day Israel, in full accord with the UN partition, declared its independence, it was attacked by all the surrounding Arab countries. It damn near lost and got wiped off the map.  But it didn't.  However, Jordan took over Jerusalem.  From 1948 to 1967, Jews were not allowed to visit their most holy sites.  They were not allowed into the city.  Ancient Jewish grave stones were used by the Jordanian Army to build latrines along the Wailing Wall.

Israel took Jerusalem, the Gaza, the Western Bank, and the Golan Heights in '67.  By the way, and in response to the fantasy the UN would protect Israel, UN "peacekeepers" heeded Nasar's demand they leave the buffer zone in '67, in anticipation of an attack.  Israel, in response, attacked first.  So much for the UN.  When Moshe Dayan entered Jerusalem one of the first things he did was order the control of the al Aqsa (sp?) Mosque returned to the Imams.  From that time on Muslims were allowed in.  Further, many Palestinians within Israel proper are Israeli citizens.  In '73, the Arabs attacked again, once more intent upon the utter destruction of the Jewish State.  They failed.  Israel took the Sinai peninsula and both sides of the Canal.  A few years later, when Egypt entered into a real peace treaty, it gave it back.

So, where does that leave us?  For one thing, it leaves the obvious question, what is so sacrosanct about the '67 boundaries?  Not a damn thing.

For another thing, it leaves us with the question, what are the obstacles to peace?  Well, there are many, but they come down to a few simple facts.  First, and foremost, the sides don't trust each other.  But even more, and I know many won't like this, the Palestinians simply aren't prepared for peace.  What do I mean?  After the Oslo accord, the Palestinian Authority was supposed to start preparing its people for peace, including putting Israel in its textbooks, and stopping the nationally supported calls for eradication of all Jews.  They did not do it.  In the meantime, Israel elected Barak, because they thought peace was possible.  I know there is a lot of debate about the actual offers at Camp David, but the bottom line is Arafat refused to negotiate.  Why?  Because if he had, his own people would have killed him.  I could write for a long time, but really don't want to.  I want you to have some sense of history, to prevent many of the misimpressions abounding.

Ultimately, there will be peace.  There will be peace when the Palestinians prepare their people for peace, and when the Israelis sense that peace is a real possibility, and vote out the Likudniks and in the peace makers.  They did it before with Barak (and isn't that a huge and significant difference?), and they will do it again.  Or there will be peace when Israel decides they just don't want to play any more, announce they recognize Palestine as a new nation located on the Gaza and the West Bank, and tell them that they're on their own, but will be held as responsible as any other civilized nation for attacks upon neighbors citizenry.  The latter is actually a realistic possibility, and COULD, if the Israelis give up the settlements and the Palestinians control the terrorists, lead to later negotiations on final borders, but instead would probably be seen by the world as aggression by Israel, merely for reserving the right to self defense. Hell, people right here seem to be applauding the idea of stripping from Israel, and only Israel, that right.

Jerusalem remains an enormous problem, but was originally to be an international city. Right now it is the hands of the only country to hold it since the partition and allow worshipers of all religions access.  Given the sordid history under the Jordanians, and the Palestinian's propaganda that the Western (or Wailing) Wall is NOT part of the Second Temple and therefore not a sacred site to the Jews, it is hard to argue that it should change hands soon.




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History Tip Jar (9.69 / 16)
because BlogMother says so.

Thanks, ,dhonig. (9.00 / 1)
The part of the history of the  whole mess over in the mideast, i. e. the Arab-Israeli conflict is something that's very seldom, if ever addressed:  How the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem came about in the first place.  Yet, I also believe that the two-state solution originally proposed back in 1947-1948 by the United Nations and by Britain, with Jerusalem being an international city is still necessary, and still  possible.  Let's hope that both sides prepare for peaceful implementation of the 2-state solution by negociating for internationally recognized secure borders for both states.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
there's a big hunk of history missing here (7.00 / 4)
that of 3/4 million Palestinians expelled from their homes and farms, which were then confiscated and given to people *from outside Palestine*.  That is the (still unacknowledged) root of the injustice, and all that followed.  And it was not an accident . . . it was the result of a deliberate policy of ethnic cleansing advocated by the founders of the State of Israel.  See the following references for a detailed exposition of this too often ignored issue . . .

http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001  by Benny Morris

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679744754/sr=8-1/qid=1152907327/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1591158-2604725?ie=UTF8

There can be no lasting resolution in the Middle East without addressing the injustice done to the Palestinians by the formation of the State of Israel, in their land, and without any compensation.

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire


[ Parent ]
Dhonig! (0.00 / 0)
The cartoon mensch switches to maps and painful geopolitics and look what you get: 750 comments and counting over on Big Orange. JESUS H. CHRIST! (He ran a surf shop somewhere near the coast on one of those maps you've included, or so I'm told. Don't you know about the WORD? Everyone knows that the word is bird...bah bah bah oooo maw bah bah oooh maw maw.) Now back to our regularly scheduled Middle Eastern flare-up.

[ Parent ]
I sense (7.20 / 5)
inflammatory rhetoric from Stu Piddy any hour now.

You know, fascist state, murderers, his uncanny predictions of the future, name-calling, baiting, the usual.

Oh wait, did I just commit pre-emptive snark?

How American of me.


(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


You know what, fuck Israel (9.00 / 1)
Fuck the UN and the British for fucking up the region and making this mess.  Fuck the Israeli leaders who learned oppression and picked up a few points from Adolph Hitler.  Fuck the Palestinians who think it's ok to bomb civilians.  Fuck all of the religious sites and their delapidated bullshit. 

Fuck all of that.  Here's what we need to do.  Send a message to all the Israelis, Palestinians, and everyone else that we are going to evacuate people who want to live in peace and do not want to fight.  Tell everyone who wants to fight to make a cease fire so we can get the innocent people out, and then let them all kill each other or do whatever it is they want.  If these people want to live like animals, then they should do it away from the innocent human beings that are being killed by their bullshit.  How many leaders of Hezbollah or Israel are being hurt or at risk?  None.  It's all innocent people that are suffering.


'Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened.' ~~ Dr. Seuss

Only one thing to add: (0.00 / 0)
Fuck Hezbollah, and Fuck Arafat for blowing it when there was a relatively peaceful Israeli government.

As to the innocents: I have an extra couch, and they are welcome to tent in my backyard.

Rescue the frog.


[ Parent ]
I should add (0.00 / 0)
Fusck Sharon for his part in fucking up te Camp David accords (Thanks to Tarheeldem)

Rescue the frog.

[ Parent ]
Sorry to break this to you, boz, but I take issue with the "Fuck Israel" attitude. somewhat. (0.00 / 0)
The comment, "You know what, fuck Israel " no matter how awful Israel's policies are in the Occupied Territories and the Palestinian civilian population residing in those territories, is really NOT a good attitude to have at all.  One doesn't have approve of Israel's policies to realize that Israel has just as much right to exist as any other country on this planet.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
The hairs on the back of my neck bristled too... (0.00 / 0)

... when I read the Fuck Israel tagline. But re-read the first paragraph and concentrate on the first sentence:

Fuck the UN and the British for fucking up the region and making this mess.
I'm no historical scholar, but after reading Oh Jerusalem many years ago, I concluded that (assuming the authors of that book were fair and balanced) British actions prior to Israel's independence in '48 helped to create the current inferno.



laughter makes you live longer

[ Parent ]
Sorry, it's just the way I see it (0.00 / 0)
Also note that I do make an exception for all the innocent people no matter what "side" they are supposed to be on.  It's just that Israel is committing acts of terrorism right now against innocent Lebanese people and it's pissing me off.


'Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened.' ~~ Dr. Seuss


[ Parent ]
I found this quote from globalvoices (.com?) (9.00 / 1)
I thougt it might interest you.

Salim:

Seriously, who are you guys kidding? Hezbullah is mighty against Israel? Why, because they have ancient technology rockets that have been modified? Israel is exponentially superior in military and technology. Its support from the west comes not only with a pat on the back but military technology that can level Lebanon and all its citizens.
As a Lebanese, I am furious that Hezbullah made such an irresponsible action. It has jeapordized all of Lebanon, not just its “precious tourism” as a previous writer condescendingly wrote. The memories of suffering and death are still fresh and the wounds have not healed. Hezbullah has thrown away all respect and political progress they have made in Lebanon, especially after Israel’s withdrawal in 2000. Since then they have been praised as heroes. But the truth has not been more evident. They are not there for Lebanon. They are not there for the Lebanese as they have been claiming. They are their for the furtherment of their version of fundamentalist and violent Islam. I am disgusted by their actions.

An act of war should not be commited by a militia or political party. It is an act reserved only for the head of state, for the government. A party that represents a whole people, not just a part.

There is no excuse for not expecting Israel’s response. From 1980’s, we have learned that they are unrelentless beasts who will stop at nothing and whom the world will condone. They have shut down the country within 48 hours. I fear that the worst is yet to come.



Rescue the frog.

[ Parent ]
Well this is a change... (8.50 / 2)
So rare to read a post that actually introduces the history behind 1967 on a liberal site. It's a sad fact that people tend to forget the history, and that liberalism has become somehow equated with "pro-terrorism-if-we-believe-in-the-cause."

For many Jews, throughout the world, watching the mainstream news, along with so many countries in the world, condemn Israel for fighting back (always with a very small footnote that perhaps the countries sending over 700 rockets into Israeli towns should stop as well, but first Israel of course), that the world still does and always will hate the Jews. It's not new, and it's not going away. It's in fashion, once again, to be out in the open about it.

Lebanon had 6 years of sovereign control of their southern borders. If you're going to let a militia take control, build their armory, ignore your authority, continually threaten the country next door...then expect something to happen.

For those of you who think that Israel is in the wrong, as always, I'd just love to hear something other than the traditional condemnation. How about a solution. If that solution involves the total eradication of the country of Israel, just come out and actually say it. At least let's be open about this.


There is no "solution." (9.00 / 1)
Given that the peacemakers on both sides are marginalized in favor of characterizing the most violent and insane people on both sides of the conflict as representative of their respective peoples, and given the long history of "well, you hit me first" alternated with "I'm hitting back for what you did just now," there is no simple plan or solution.  There is only time, damage control, and assistance to the victims - whether injured, dispossessed, or displaced.  Additional fiats or military actions (especially from outside) will only make things worse, in the same way that turning up the heat under a pot of water that's about to boil dry is of absolutely no help in remedying the situation.

Nothing will, until some mutual agreement can be found as to what the parties involved want.

Excellent history, dhonig, though the transition from the Ottoman Empire to Palestine/Transjordan was a bit glossed over (via the Balfour declaration), as was the pre-1900 migration effort by the Zionist Federation, and the conflicts even between the two groups of Jews involved: those immigrating to Palestine and those who were born there (in addition to the economic pressures brought by Jewish communities in other parts of the world).  Does this sound familiar?  Thought so.

I'm not linking, because this is the tough part of the history where a dispassionate account is hard to find - far more so than the 1945-1968 period, which is saying something.

Maybe I'll go kick over my stack of old texts and see if I can find some sources to chase after on the web.

My intent is not to nit picks (so to speak), just to affirm your point that in an area with this long a history, there is no "good guy in this (or any) fight," save for the individuals who get caught in a larger conflict with the twin "misfortunes" of being unarmed and not being predisposed to violence or otherwise mucking with other people's lives.



"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid." --Basil King

StealthBadger.net: My surly little home...



[ Parent ]
Thanks (6.00 / 1)
There is a TON more to be written here, of course.  As you noted, I was trying to do no more than pick one issue, borders, and point out that most people's starting point, the '67 lines, have their own sordid history.  Over at BOB (Big Orange Blog) some people got it, while others turned it into yet another flame war with their own pet piece of the issue.

[ Parent ]
Interesting history & good maps (0.00 / 0)
Actually seeing the 1947 maps leads me to conclude, the pre-1967 borders are simply not viable....Too gerrymandered and too vulnerable militarily.  Maybe, however, hope springs eternal

What I don't get (7.50 / 4)
Is why people refuse to consider a one-state solution, with true democracy and equality for all peoples. Why the notion that we need separation of peoples? Borders are hard to draw because they are artificial things, legal fictions, that rarely conform to geographical or social reality.

[ Parent ]
I tend to agree (3.00 / 1)
Make all the Palestinians citizens of Israel...Make Israel take care of them; put Hamas terrorists that continue to kill in jail as simple murderers.....

Don't think it will happen though--the more draconian and inhumane solution is to ship out all the Palestinians to Jordan and Syria....

I don't really see any solutions at all--although the tense but relatively stable situation in the late 1990s was, although not ideal, much better than what we will apparently have now.


[ Parent ]
Sorry, eugene and MKS, but I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with you there: (9.00 / 2)
Here are some reasons WHY a 2-state solution is not only necessary but is the ONLY solution that'll work:

A)  The birthrate of the Palestinians is much, much higher than that of the Israeli Jews, and the Jews would be outnumbered in no time, due to demographicsl

B.)  Unlike the Irish, Italians, and many other groups who were majorities in the countries from which they fled due to oppression, the Jews were an extremely tiny and severely oppressed minority in every country from which they fled.  Therefore, a nation-state with a Jewish-majority population is necessary.

C.)  The Jewish people have historically been reduced to martyrdom, and persecuted bitterly over many, many years, so both they AND the Palestinians have the right to each have their OWN independent, sovereign nation-state, security, and self-determination.  Having their own states guarantees protection against future severe persecution(what happened to the Jews)
  and/or political exploitation by other countries(as what happened to the Palestinians).  Having the two-state solution will also "normalize" each population, as well.

D.)  Most of the Palestinians DO NOT WANT to be part of Israel.  They want and need THEIR OWN independent, sovereign nation-state, for the reasons stated above, and because the Arab countries do not want to take the Palestinians in.

E)  There are countries with a Protestant majority, as well as countries with Catholic-majority populations, as well as countries with a Muslim population-majority.  Therefore, it is only fitting that there be a nation-state with a Jewish-majority population--Israel

F.)  The Jewish people need to have self-determination also, and an independent, sovereign nation-state of their own is the way to do it, as well as to protect against a repeat of the various crusades, pograms, etc, that ultimately led up to a  "final" solution:  the Holocaust.

I also might add that one does NOT have to be religious to recognize the above-mentioned reasons  why the State of Israel must exist.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.


[ Parent ]
I assume from your comment (11.00 / 1)
that you agree with the entire civilized world that the herding of Jews into first ghettos and then concentration camps and the confiscation of their property by the Nazis was totally unacceptable, and totally abhorant.  And it would have been so even had it not been followed by the even greater abomination of attempted extermination.

How then do you justify the expulsion of Palestinians, first into refugee camps and now concentration camps like Gaza, and the original and continuing confiscation of their property, in order to create a "Jewish" state in Palestine?

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire


[ Parent ]
I beg to differ with you Deward (0.00 / 0)
Sorry, Deward, but it's not comparable at all.  The Jewish State of Israel existed prior to the Palestinians having been  there, which was taken from the Jews by the Palestinians.  After World War II, the Jews took their homeland BACK from the Palestinians. Also, Deward,  the land was originally to be partitioned into two separate states:  The Jewish State of Israel, and the Arab State of Palestine right alongside each other, with Jerusalem as an international city.
This did not happen back in 1947-1948, because the Arab world deliberately blocked it and refused to accept the partition.  The occupation of Gaza, West Bank and EAst Jerusalem by Israel didn't come until way later, in 1967.  I agree that Israel needs to get out of those occupied territories, withdraw its troops, settlers and settlements, but bear in mind that the Arab world was just as much at fault.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
"The Jewish State of Israel" existed when? (9.00 / 1)
And was taken from "them" by "Palestinians" when?

Jewish "homeland"?  From 2500 years ago?  And abandoned for two thousand years? 

That's you justification for Israel?  You've got to be kidding.

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire


[ Parent ]
Deward: There've been many, many different people in the region that the Palestinians have been ruled by. (0.00 / 0)
The State of Israel came into being for a reason:  to normalize the Jewish people so they'd be a little bit more like everyone else and not always be reduced to martyrdom, and to have self-determination of their own.  A State of Palestine ALONGSIDE Israel must also come into existence. 

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
It seems (9.00 / 2)
that in the Middle East, it's not possible.  Look at Iraq.  One of the scenarios a lot of people think will happen, and might be best for the country, is splitting it back up into 3 nations.  There are huge issues with that as well, but some seem to think it would help. 

I'm always torn on this issue.  I know Israel has the right to defend itself, but I also think the Palestinians are getting a raw deal.  It seems they're relegated to the resource-deprived areas of that region.  The poverty is disgusting, as is the corruption of their leaders.  The Likuds are a bunch of Israeli Republicans.  Just a bunch of fuckers all around. 

Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.


[ Parent ]
I will try to answer (7.75 / 4)
that question, because it is legitimate.

Let me give you just one example of what Jews fear.  Palestinians become the majority, under that plan.  They adopt Islam as the official religion, making it a crime to be Jewish.  All Jews are expelled. Game over.  And if they do so, democratically, what is the objection?  Okay, another slightly less terrible example, also real.  The Palestinians deny the existence of historial Jewish sites in Jerusalem, particularly the old Temple.  So once a Palestinian majority controls the country, Jews are no longer allowed to worship at the Wailing Wall. 

The above is not fantasy, but based on actual facts and history.  I hope that starts to answer your question.


[ Parent ]
a one state system sounds good on paper (9.00 / 1)
but in execution, not so much.

Want an example?  Iraq.  A country that was created without regard for the ethic makeup.  We see how well that worked out.

Bosnia springs to mind as well.

I fully understand why a two state solution was sought--but I do not get how those borders got set.  I suppose it's possible that the borders could have been more convoluted, but only if Escher were the cartographer.

"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he had read made him mad." --George Bernard Shaw


[ Parent ]
A contrasting example: (11.00 / 1)
Post- truth-and-reconciliation South Africa.

Rescue the frog.

[ Parent ]
actually, Yugoslavia (0.00 / 0)
managed to function as a multi-ethnic state *until* it was broken up into ethnic enclaves.  It was the multi-state "solution" that didn't work . . .

And Iraq worked as a multi-ethnic state (the most secular in the region, and with the most rights and freedom for women) until we stepped in and destroyed the central government that kept it all together.  It is only now that they face ethnic warfare as the various factions compete to create ethnically pure enclaves . . .

In Palestine the Zionists *never* sought a "two state solution" . . . from the beginning to the present they sought an ethnically pure "Jewish" state in all of Palestine, either without any of the previously resident Palestinians (who were to be "transferred" elsewhere) or with the minority remaining kept in a servile "worker" class.

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire


[ Parent ]
The zionists who refused to accept the partition were in the minority, NOT the majority. (0.00 / 0)
n/m

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
it would be a peculiar "democracy" (0.00 / 0)
where the minority rules . . . particularly on such a fundamental issue.

It was, and is, *all* of Israel that has been building (illegal) settlements in the West Bank for the past 30 years, with the *deliberate* intent of making a Palestinian state impossible.

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire


[ Parent ]
I agree that the building of settlements by Israel in West Bank and Gaza shouldn't have been allowed to start, (0.00 / 0)
that they're illegal, and they shouldn't go on.  However, it's not too late to get people negociating.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
you left out (0.00 / 0)
"and they should be abandoned".

Why?

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire


[ Parent ]
Oh, and I DO agree that the settlements should be abandoned, OR handed over to the Palestinians. (6.00 / 2)
However, Deward, to be honest with you, it's one thing to disagree with me, and it's OK to disagree--that's what a democracy is all about.  However, you've had a nasty attitude and tone from the start, which is NOT what I, or anybody else on here likes. 

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
What percentage of the US votes again? (0.00 / 0)


Rescue the frog.

[ Parent ]
Sometimes, Deward, (0.00 / 0)
the expression  "the minority rules" really DOES hold true.  The extremists were/are probably NOT in the majority, but, then again, they really DON'T have to be in the majority to set the tone and/or present a problem.  I could cite afew examples, but it would take much too long, and it would be digressing, way, way off the original subject of this particular diary.  Oh, and Deward--I apologized for having a nasty tone--why can't you do likewise?

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
Did you even read the diary, (0.00 / 0)
or just start pushing your own point of view?

If you look at the map, the final UN partition, it HAD two states divided along population lines, the Jews were happier than trayf in shit, and the Arabs invaded.


[ Parent ]
Well, they weren't necessarily HAPPY (0.00 / 0)
with the partition. They really didn't have a contiguous country, for one thing, but one which was functionally split into a couple of pieces at least. But they were willing to live with the situation in 1948, until the neighbors invaded. The amazing thing was that they managed to defend it and push the borders out...and this was long before they had the overwhelming firepower, technologically if not in numbers, that they have now.

Unfortunately, the attacks by their Arab neighbors hardened their attitude into a siege mentalitiy, reinforced now over three generations and transmuted into a "hit them first and negotiate later" reflex on the part of most israeli governments.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
The reason is (0.00 / 0)
there are more palestinians and arab-israelis than jewish-israelis, and that disparity is growing all the time. Now in a one man one vote election that means....
It has been said that one of the main things that drove Sharon into dumping the settlements and building his little wall was demographics. Whatever you think/thought (is he dead yet?) of Sharon he is/was not a stupid man, and could see the biggest potential problem for his zionist state in the future.
Of course failure to come to a two-state solution cannot be allowed because the other side will not negotiate, so we get the Kadima (sp?) hey we'll do it unilaterally platform. That was not too popular with even Bush. We wont mention any of the other world leaders because Isael doesnt care what they think. They dont give the billions in aid to Israel every year to keep its rather moribund economy and somewhat expensive military running. Still now we have Israel exerting its "right to defend itself" as supported by all US politicians, I am sure old King George will drop any opposition to Olmert imposing his own 2 state solution without negotiation.

[ Parent ]
Cannot support Israel. (3.33 / 3)
But not against Israel.  Just against the way they treat the weaker party in this fight.

If the Israelis actually said, "We are sorry for they many tradegies the establishment of Israel has caused you.  We had no other place to go; no other country wanted us after WWII.  Can you forgive us and can we live here?"  I think you would find Palestineans supporting such a neighbor.  And 70% of people on both sides want peace.

This summary of William Blum’s “Killing Hope” chapters on Middle East brought me a bit of sanity on this issue:
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~marto/aip/blum.htm
(If you check the actual book you will find extensive footnotes from accessable publications in the mainstream, but those are not in this summary peice.)

Vigilance is the price of freedom. That means us citizens, and not our professional military or its industrial complex bleeding us for every dollar they waste protecting corporate hegemony. That is part of what weakens citizens and puts us in danger.


I feel I have to support Israel (9.75 / 8)
I am not against Palestine. In fact, I consider myself pro-both since both have the same origin and to deny one denies the other.

The more I read the history of the Jewish people, the more I realize that we are never accepted as a normal part of any other society for very long. Germany was the best place ever for awhile...until they decided to exterminate us. America seems pretty good. But the Delaware Pogrom shows just how thin the veneer of tolerance can be.

And that's just it. Our history is a history of being tolerated. We live somewhere at the sufferance of people who consider us different and supect. The only difference now is that now there is ONE place on the entire planet where Jews are accepted as being normal, rather than tolerated: Israel. If the shit hits the fan here, I know there is one place that will accept my family. Without it, there is no guarantee.

Of course who else fits this situation? The Palestinians. They are despised by the Arabs who claim to take up their cause. They are treated horribly by Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria...and for that matter by themselves. In fact, Israel didn't occupy land directly from Palestine. They took it from the Arab nations that had in turn taken it from Palestine. For the same reason I personally feel a desperate need for a secure, viable Israel, I recognize the desperate need for a secure, viable Palestine for the Palestinian people. It would be the one place that one could feel ACCEPTED as Palestinian rather than merely tolerated.

A Shi'ite friend heard me out when I said these things. He then explained that for Shi'ites it has often been much the same. Right now Iran is the only place where one is accepted as a Shi'ite rather than merely tolerated.

Jews are not alone in this. But there is something very frightening being of a group where everything about you is not fully accepted by any other place on earth. At least Palestinians and Shi'a have places they can go where being Muslim is the accepted norm. Jews don't have that without Israel.

NYC is a pretty comfortable place to be a Jew. But there is plenty of hostility and suspicion if you are a Jew here. And the Delware Pogrom has shown us that America can have pogroms in the name of Christ just like anywhere else. The town my family came from in Latvia was 50% Jewish and had a strong Jewish population from its foundation. That didn't stop the pogroms that drove out my family or the holocaust where 5000 Jews from that town were gunned down in a single day.

I feel I have to support Israel as a potential matter of life or death.

Read the Progressive Democrat Newsletter


[ Parent ]
Self imposed alienation. (3.00 / 1)
You say, "The more I read the history of the Jewish people, the more I realize that we are never accepted as a normal part of any other society for very long."

The whole thing with Jewish people in my lifetime (since 1943, is a nightmare.  But I have to respectfully suggest that imposed Jewish alleniation from others is not the impression I get from the histories I have read of the whole of Jewish history -- only in certain periods, so  Maybe you need to read more.  (The Jews, History and God" was good.  Barbara Tuchman is wonderful. and this following book which suggests the separation from other peoples was self-imposed (Karen Armstrong in "The History of God") to keep the Jewish people cohesive by living in communities of their own kind, by the Jewish people's own choice originally.



Vigilance is the price of freedom. That means us citizens, and not our professional military or its industrial complex bleeding us for every dollar they waste protecting corporate hegemony. That is part of what weakens citizens and puts us in danger.


[ Parent ]
Not quite (6.00 / 1)
I would say acceptance was episodic and intolerance was more the norm. But possibly it is just a different focus--half empty/half full kind of thing.

As to reading about Jewish history, I have actually read extensively about it. Though I haven't read anything Tuchman wrote on the subject. But I should! Loved what I have read by her.

Self-imposed? In the case of some groups, most notably the Hassids, that is true. But the majority have generally, be it Roman times, Ottoman times, Russia or Germany, preferred assimilation. In almost all cases full equality was never achieved and in many, many cases periods of tolerance were followed sometimes quite rapidly by terrible persecution.

Read the Progressive Democrat Newsletter


[ Parent ]
Yep (0.00 / 0)
And it should be noted, the hasidic movement is relatively recent (whether the earth is 5,000 years old or 5 million), less than 300 years old. And has only grown into a world-wide practice in the last 150 years.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

[ Parent ]
Any culture should be able (0.00 / 0)
to live amongst their own kind in self-imposed groups without fear of retribution.

I wonder if you are condemning them for not assimilating?

Rescue the frog.


[ Parent ]
No, I quite agree (0.00 / 0)
that self-chosed isolation is a choice I think belings within the community.  I don't condem that.  It may not make for good relations with neighbors, but I think it is one's right to make that choice.

Vigilance is the price of freedom. That means us citizens, and not our professional military or its industrial complex bleeding us for every dollar they waste protecting corporate hegemony. That is part of what weakens citizens and puts us in danger.

[ Parent ]
Israel Shahak (0.00 / 3)
wrote quite convincingly in "Jewish History, Jewish Religion" on the subject of self-imposed separation and the accompanying attitudes that prevailed in the European Jewish community for the past thousand years . . . epitomized by the unswervingly racist "Halakhah" law, which profoundly influences Israeli behavior, if not writen civil law, to this day.  It is Halakhah which is used to justify all the discriminatory anti-Palestinian laws (like property law) in Israel since its inception.

The book is a must-read for anyone who wishes to understand the Zionist mindset . . .

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire


[ Parent ]
Bingo (5.67 / 3)
epitomized by the unswervingly racist "Halakhah" law.

Next you'll be quoting from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Fucking bigot.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington


[ Parent ]
Could you explain what just happened here? (0.00 / 0)

You two see like you're communicating in code. Not ALL of us are fully versed in the lexicon of this area of history and current events...

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

[ Parent ]
Halakhah is Jewish law (0.00 / 0)
The rules, the 613 commandments.

I'm not familiar with the author referred to, but I'm quite familiar with the text which he refers to.

To claim it is "unswervingly racist" isn't a misinterpretation, its an outright lie. Its as vile as claiming all Muslims wish to kill all non-Muslims.

This mindset has no place in civil discussions of the tragedy that has become the middle east.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington


[ Parent ]
Echo that (9.33 / 3)
Let me echo that, because mole333 raises the subject which I was pondering the other evening. I am an American, and I love my country. As far as I'm concerned, it's the best place to live (GWB notwithstanding).

In the back of my mind, however, is the reminder that my fellow Jews probably said the same thing about Germany in the 19th and early 20th century. They were affluent or middle class, established, often assimilated. They had prominent roles in business, the arts, education, science.  Just like Jews in 21st century America.  None of that meant a damn thing.

Do I plan on moving to Israel? Will I make aliyah? Very doubtful.  But when I read comments like billmac's comments from yesterday -- and he felt quite comfortable saying that in a very progressive community!! -- I'm grateful to have Israel.  In the years leading up to WW2, Jews fled Europe but often had nowhere to go. Ocean liners filled with Jewish refugees were turned away from one country after another...including America.  And those Jews had to return to Europe, where most of them were slaughtered.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.


[ Parent ]
Let me add something (10.25 / 4)
I'm constantly reminded that I am a Jew in a Christian country. Despite the First Amendment, despite numerous court rulings.  Christmas is a national holiday. Now, Christians may argue that Christmas is a secular holiday, but that's not true. It's the celebration of the birth of Jesus. I know that, and from mid-November until early January, I have it shoved in my face.  The President of the United States lights a national Christmas tree, on the White House grounds...paid for with my Jewish tax dollars (think of that, next time someone wants to bitch about the $8.50 that is your personal share of US aid to Israel).  At the inauguration of the President every four years, invariably there is a minister to make a blessing, and invariably he or she will invoke "our savior, Jesus Christ." Excuse me, but not MY savior.  I could go on, but I think you get my point.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

[ Parent ]
That is wrong. (0.00 / 0)
It should be a God-type blessing, not a religion-specific blessing, IMO.

Rescue the frog.

[ Parent ]
Given his absenteeism (9.00 / 2)
over the last 100 years or so....I'd rather god wasn't involved at all.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

[ Parent ]
I agree. But that is unrealistic (0.00 / 0)
as a first goal.

Rescue the frog.

[ Parent ]
as an atheist (9.00 / 1)
i totally get what you're saying.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

[ Parent ]
Not my savior either (0.00 / 0)
I'm a pagan; I don't "need" "saving".

And the invocation of the inspiration for Christianity (not "founder", Peter and Paul did that) irks the hell out of me, too. On the other hand, I'm perfectly willing to reclaim my Midwinter festival from the religious group that co-opted it. Just remember, that national "Christmas" tree is an ancient pagan symbol of growth in a time of apparent death...which is why the fundies get upset about it every few years.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
Same here Paul. (7.50 / 2)
I doubt many of Israel's tactics and motivations; and I think they are bullies abusing power.

But there is no doubt in my mind that the Jews need a state. Further, that need did not begin with Nazi Germany. Persecution goes back to many times and in many places.

Personally, I don't know whether I would have been "rounded up" If such a horrific event were repeated  in present-day America. I just found out definitively that I am a Jew 2 years ago, at the age of 35---we are that assimilated.

But many Germans were surprised to find out they were Jews in WW2. So I am comforted by knowing that Israel is there on my behalf and on the bhalf of others.


Rescue the frog.


[ Parent ]
This is directed to both (8.50 / 6)
mole33 and Paul.

The "Delaware Pogrom" would target me and my family, too -- not because we're Jewish (we're not), but because we're not Christian and are non-religious.  Or, perhaps more accurately "areligious" -- without religion.

We face some of the same cultural difficulties.  The Religious Right's insistence on the absolute truth of Christianity is difficult to explain to our autistic son -- especially during our secular observations of the holidays.

The prayers at public ceremonies and Biblican references -- they make me extremely uncomfortable.  Shit, I experience the same discomfort at my in-laws house at Thanksgiving, as they profess beliefs that I find somewhat ludicrous.

The phenomena you describe aren't reserved for Jews in America; they are shared by anyone who doesn't subscribe to mainstream Christianity.  We, too, are outsiders -- even within our own families.


Leave the cat alone, for what has the cat done, that you should so afflict it with tape? - Ian Frazier, Lamentations of the Father


[ Parent ]
Absolutely (0.00 / 0)
I was bringing it up in context of the diary.

Read the Progressive Democrat Newsletter

[ Parent ]
Both sides owe each other an apology, imo, (9.00 / 3)
for all the atrocities, injustices, barbaric acts, and for the refusal to accept each other's existence and to recognize each other as  human beings, not to mention all the maiming/killing of innocents on both sides, the persistent refusal of BOTH sides, as well as the Arab countries to face up to their accountability in this decade-long conflict.  There's also an incredible amount of arrogance, hubris and stupidity to go around.  They both owe each other an apology.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
for what (0.00 / 0)
do the Palestinians owe an apology?  For not just voluntarily giving their homes and farms to the European Zionists who came to take them from them?  For "forcing" Israel to expell them and confiscate their property?  For not giving Israel any "choice" but to take all their water?

I'd love to see, side by side, the lists of what there is to apologize for . . .

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire


[ Parent ]
Again, I respectfully disagree with you, Deward. The palestinians also owe Israel an apology for THEIR horrific acts over the years. (10.00 / 1)
Deward, you might want to bone up on your history about the Arab-Israeli conflict and, not that this justifies Israel's occupation of West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem, but, unfortunately, the Palestinians have a long, long history, even prior to coming under Israeli military occupation in 1967, of engaging in various acts of terror against and killing innocent Israeli civilians.  They, too, have lots of blood on their hands.  The acts committed by Palestinians range from the use of the now-occupied territories as launching pads for regular attacks on Israel, the years of hijacking Israeli El Al Aircraft and blowing them up, the gunning down of Jews at various European airports, the storming of Israeli schools, etc, not to mention the slaughter of Israeli athletes in Munich during the 1972 athletes by Palestinian terrorists, as well as another attempt at something similar 4 years later at Entebbe, Uganda, by PLO terrorists and their German terrorist allies, which was successfully foiled by Israeli commandos.  Arafat, for the longest time, never really wanted to accept Israel's existence, even though he may have said so publicly--he was never sincere.  Plus, the Palestinian suicide bombings, which have maimed and  killed innocent Israeli civilians, most of who have nothing to do with the Palestinian's statelessness.  Come to think of it, most Israelis advocate a 2-state solution, and so do many, if not most palestinians.  So-having said all of the above, I believe that the Israelis and Palestinians both owe each other an apology.  My position still stands.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
interesting sense of history (0.00 / 0)
and entitlement.  Couldn't find a thing for Israel to apologize for, eh ? ? ?

Certainly not for expelling 3/4 million Palestinians and stealing their land and property.  Nothing wrong with that . . .

Others, of course, are of a different opinion . . .

http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire


[ Parent ]
Can we say... (10.00 / 1)
that there is no more moral high ground in this conflict?  Should we then forego the guilt trip approach and the "he made me do it" arguments, and focus on peace?

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Don't waste your time (0.00 / 0)
He's so far over the edge, it's useless. But let him flog the dead horse all he wants...it's still a dead horse.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

[ Parent ]
S'Bird (5.00 / 1)
i haven't read through the whole thread, so this might be there, but what you say reminds me of a column i read a few years ago, during the second infatada, written, i think, by Edward Said.

he told the story of his son, raised in america, who was driving through the streets in palestine one day when he hit a couple of pedestrians.  he was going very slowly in the narrowm winbding streets, so he did lttle more than knock them off their feet.  He got out to see about his victims, who assured him that they were all right, no injuries.  After being asusred that they were all right, he drove off.  He tells the story to his father, who was palestinian and raised in the Middle East.

his father tells him that he had done the wrong thing, considering the traditions there.  what he should have done, and what he must do as soon as possible, is to go to the family elders of the pedestrians, and offer his apologies, and offer to make amends for any damages.  The elders would then set a price.  Normally, he said, they would try to set a fair price, but a price nonetheless, even if it was nominal.  this would end any hostilities in the incident.  In the son's case, beause he was a student without means, and because there were no injuries, the price would be low, and it is always subject to some negotiation.

Now, the columnist continued, Israel and its people, at the founding of the nation, were like a prisoner who was detained and abused unjustly, and endeavors to escape his confinement by climbing over the wall.  As he jumps down, he inadvertantly lands on a passerby, and, understandedly, scurries off.

It is understandable that such a thing would happen, and is understndable that in the immediate aftermath, the prisoner would not check on his victim.  But, the author mnaintains, it is necessary for the now free prisoner to seek out the family of the passerby later, to inquire about what pain and/or injuries were caused by his landing on him, offer his apologies, and agree to pay a price to make amends.

The author says he thinks that because most of the settlers who were in charge were Europeans unfamiliar with local custom, they neglected ever to do this, and things got worse.  But , he said, even "now," (at the time of the second infatada), if Sharon were to go to the elders in Palestine and admit that the founding of Israel caused injury to the people "below the wall," and explain why his people had to climb "over the wall," make an honest apology for any injury, and agree to make amends and pay a price, there was, the author thought, STILL a good chance that the Palestinians, his people, would understand, negotiate a settlement, and accept the state of Israel.  He thought that they were required to accept such an approach by custom.

Of course, the author told this with much more detail, and much tenderness, with much hopefulness.  it certainly sounded like an effort that might be made.

At the time, i thought that both Sharon, and hamas leader Yassin were agreed on a one state solution, and were in a kind of cahoots to prevent a two state solution.  On the Muslim boards, i wrote fanciful telephone conversations between the two, where, say, Sharon would upbraid Yassin for not killing enough israelis to justify his counterattacks, and urging him to pick it up.

what do you think?

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
I think the appology is with a try. (0.00 / 0)
Especially, and I did not know this, since it meshes with established Arab custom in settling disagrement.

I know that I would feel exactly like the Palestineans feel it my home and farm had been taken for some stranger's use.

I do not see how I would feel like the Israelies do -- fully justified in their violence by Palestinean resistance to occupation.  How can they ignore the misery and discrimination they impose.

I feel the stronger party has the greater responsibility for seeking solutions.Surely in the last 25 years, Israel and the US could have had peace if they had wanted it.

Vigilance is the price of freedom. That means us citizens, and not our professional military or its industrial complex bleeding us for every dollar they waste protecting corporate hegemony. That is part of what weakens citizens and puts us in danger.


[ Parent ]
if it were up to me (8.00 / 3)
I'd say give the Palestinians the west bank & gaza strip and agree to leave them alone - but this would be assuming they would leave the Israelis alone. The fact is, the Jews were unwanted and chased all over the europe and the middle east before they had Israel, thus I have some sympathy for the Israeli position.

But the animosity between Islamic & Jewish religious extremists is so old and deeply entrenched, I can't see anyone getting beyond it. Both sides are wrong, both sides have fucked up, both sides are fucking nuts.

national shopping boycott April 15 - April 22 www.wearenotbuyingit.org


Likud and Ariel Sharon (9.50 / 6)
From the Partition until the Likud victory, it was the Palestinians and their Arab allies who kept the pot boiling.  And yet they gained no political benefit, no bargaining power from agression.  For a brief moment, when Begin and Sadat negotiated  the Camp David agreement, there seemed to be hope.

Then the roles seemed to reverse.  Israel's government started promoting settlements in the Palestinian territories, which complicated all future negotiations.

And then the second Camp David talks.  Yes, it is a tough negotiating.  Yes, Arafat with Hamas at his back was stubborn.  But it was Ariel Sharon's trespass on the grounds of the Dome of the Rock that killed those talks.  And the rumors about this one are like those about Reagan's arms for hostages.  The rumor is that he did it to ensure that Bill Clinton would not wear down Arafat and Barak and actually achieve a settlement, the crowning achievement of his term in office.  That would not help Republicans who were planning a coup.

Without the Moslem Brotherhood, there would have been no Likud; without Likud, there would have been not Hamas.  Without Hamas, what is the next reaction.

Both sides seem remarkably determined to jerk war from the beak of the dove of peace.

And neither gives a shit about all of the tax money that American citizens have poured into the area in the name of peace.  Half-hearted as our leaders might have been, there were a heck of a lot of citizens who actually thought that it might bring peace.

But it hasn't, and as long as neither side is ready to break free of history, it won't.

But Israelis need to understand that the great American power that provided somewhat of a shield to them has been squandered in the sands of Iraq by George W. Bush.  In the future, we might not support them because we can't.

History cannot solve this one.  The fact is both sides have legitimate historical claims to the same piece of territory.

And by the way, Germany in both World War I and World War II did seek Arab allies (they were fighting to rid themselves of Britain and France).  And that is what T.E. Lawrence was sent to counter in World War I.  You know, Lawrence of Arabia T.E. Lawrence.  And the Arab support of Germany in World War II is one of the geopolitical reasons that the victorious Allies created the state of Israel in 1948.  There were many moral reasons at the time, but that was one of the geopolitical reasons.

Where does that leave us, US citizens?  Powerless to intervene in what is a persistent local issue.  There will be peace when people in the neighborhood are tired of war to the point that powers outside the neighborhood have less influence.

The only thing that we can do is stop sending money to the region, not that we should do that.  But we might wind up cutting all aid because of the financial mess that the Bush administration has put us in.

Want a third party -- 50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts -- Go get 'em


Nice analysis. (0.00 / 0)
What strikes me most is this

Both sides seem remarkably determined to jerk war from the beak of the dove of peace.

Why????

The answer is: to keep power.

Same way GW Bush has kept power
Same way Castro has kept power
Same way extremists keep power in Iran

And so on and so forth.


Rescue the frog.


[ Parent ]
Not just for power (6.00 / 1)
Making the concessions necessary for peace requires a lot more courage than trying to maintain the status quo.  Arafat didn't have it. Anwar Sadat and Menahem Begin did have it.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

[ Parent ]
I think you misunderstand me. (0.00 / 0)
The status quo was conflict with the desired result of keeping power for Arafat.

Rescue the frog.

[ Parent ]
courage? (3.00 / 2)
Sadat gave up what . . . for billions in US aid?

Begin gave up what . . . for billions in US aid *and* a continued license to occupy Palestine?

But Arafat had no courage, because he refused to surrender Palestine to occupation for nothing but crumbs in return?



"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire


[ Parent ]
Wrong. (3.50 / 2)
Sadat and Begin were willing to go against the instinct to perpetuate war for the continuation of their power.

Arafat was not willing to risk his personal power for peace.

As if there is any higher thing that one could risk losing power for.

Rescue the frog.


[ Parent ]
This comment is key (6.00 / 1)
One of the best comments I've seen here on MLW in its year and a day of existence.

Utterly important.

I'd love if this became its own diary.


[ Parent ]
Palestine (0.00 / 0)
was not a German ally in WWII . . . was under the British Mandate from 1920 to 1947.  So what justified displacing the Palestinians to create Israel?

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

[ Parent ]
hey, Deward, sorry to say this, but (0.00 / 0)
many Arabs allied themselves with the Nazis during world war II.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
which has nothing (0.00 / 0)
to do with Palestine.  And which gave European Jews no entitlement to Palestine.

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

[ Parent ]
The fact that many Arabs allied themselves with the Nazis during WW II (0.00 / 0)
is also part of the reason that there's so much distrust of Arabs on the part of the Israeli Jews.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
Alliances and Entitlements (9.00 / 1)
As in most of the Arab world, there was no unanimity amongst the Palestinian Arabs as to their position regarding the combatants in WWII. Many signed up for the British army, but others saw an Axis victory as likely outcome and way of wresting Palestine back from the Zionists and the British. Some of the leadership went further, especially the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al-Husseini (who had by then escaped to Iraq), who on November 25, 1941, formally declared jihad against the Allied Powers.

The Grand Mufti was most responsible for starting the 1948 war.

Arabs opposed Britain for two reasons -- British imperialism in the Middle East and the expectation that Britain was more tolerant of Jewish settlement.

As a result, the Allies felt no obligation to consider Arab sensibilities in the creation of Israel by the UN.

As for entitlement, the problem is that historically both groups can argue entitlement and both would be correct from an international law perspective.  That is why entitlement will never be a basis for resolution of the conflict.  Only taking a new approach, starting as if history had not happened, and determining that from a certain day forward things will be different -- only this can bring a resolution.  And that is the major difficulty in this issue.

Want a third party -- 50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts -- Go get 'em


[ Parent ]
Great diary, but I'd like to add a few additional facts.. (7.50 / 2)
(and just maybe a couple of small corrections).

It was in 1967 when Israel took the Sinai Desert.  In the 1973 war, the Egyptians attacked the Bar-Lev line of mediocre fortresses on the Suez Canal and broke through into Sinai, attempting to "relieve" Gaza.  As a student of military history, it makes the ensuing defeat of the Egyptian army even more impressive as the Israelis took back the Egyptian gains and invaded Egypt proper (the drive to Cairo and Port Said).

Also, in the 48 war, much of the motivation of the "Arab" countries (which isn't really descriptive of either Syria or Egypt..but they include themselves in the group) was a land grab at the expense of the Israelis AND the Palestinians.  The Egyptians and Jordanians wanted nothing to do with a Hashemite-led group of Palestinians under control of the Grand Mufti, Hajj Amin Al-Husayni, the corrupt leader of the Palestinians during the establishment of Israel (you remember, the "Hero" of Arafat's in 2002, the guy who worked with the Nazis during Holocaust and was in Germany hanging out with his buddies Eichmann and Himmler...the guy who attempted to use chemical warfare against the largest concentration of Jews in Palestine, Tel Aviv).

Silverbird, in 1948, the Jews in Israel were (for the most part) willing to co-exist with the Palestinians within both partitioned countries.  But Husseini's terrorism against them, their own terrorist groups (the Stern Gang, and the Irgun), and the Arab nations surrounding them certainly didn't want that (and of course, there are still questions about the Cold War which overlays all of this...at that time in America...many people thought that Jew = Communist...and it was the USSR that wanted and supported the Jewish State to exist as a possible foothold to continue the socialist revolution in another part of the world.  It wasn't for another 10 years or so that the ideological lines of "US & Israel" and "USSR & Arabs" were drawn.  Jews, especially in the first half of the 20th century, were in the forefront of liberal, progressive or socialist movements throughout the world..their support from Conservative Americans has only been since about 1955.)

I wonder if peace might not be easier if the Authority got back all the money that Mr. & Mrs. Arafat looted from them.  And used that money to build infrastructure instead of guns.

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish


Another good point, devilsadvocate. (10.00 / 1)
Yes, it's very true that Arafat and his cronies in the Palestinian Authority really were rife with corruption and patronage and, did indeed expropriate all the money that could've/should've been allocated to helping create an independent, sovereign nation-state for their people called Palestine.  This is where the hypocracy on the part of the International Solidarity Movement comes in.  It's one thing to criticize and take the Israelis to task for their occupation of West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem, not to mention the excesses that go along with it, but the ISM should've also been protesting the cronyism, corruption and patriotism on the part of the Palestinian Authority.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
In the backround... (6.50 / 2)
But with hands on triggers, the Abrahamic faiths do what they've done best since their inception. Take them out of the equation first.

Start off with eliminating the rabbis, ministers, priests, rapturists and imams who preach hatred; the same ones who highjacked those religions for personal gain and power, and you'll have the problem 60% solved.

Stop all foreign aid to the whole region and enforce an embargo that will put EVERYBODY in that region in extreme discomfort until until all parties agree to negotiate fairly.

Eliminate AIPAC, a lobby that corrupts politicians in the USA with money that we US taxpayers give them.

and perhaps most important, administer all public goods in the region especially the water resources fairly and impartially, under an international commission.

It's time that all the world's nations got together to heal a sickness that has been festering since time immemorial. Cancer cannot heal itself; the patient as a whole has to decide to take action to heal the disease.


I'm waiting for gottlieb to check in on this diary (7.50 / 2)
The more that I read, the more  I realize that I don't know very much about the history of the conflict(s).  That's why I love this site.

Thanks for this diary.  It fills in a lot of the blanks.

"You can be shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right." Hunter/Garcia


No War For Israel ! (2.00 / 2)
Why are we saddled with being the Golem? Israel has blood on it's own hands, is one of the most powerful military machines on the planet and is using this country (very easily I might add) to eliminate all potential enemies in the region.

Of course our media always sides with poor little innocent Israel, what a bunch of bullshit.

God gave them the land?

Show me a fucking deed!

Israel is not worth one American life although many will be sacrificed in the coming wars.

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


Watching CNN last nigt (0.00 / 0)
they most certainly did not side with Israel.

They said that this was Israel's esxcuse to execute a war plan that had been on ice for just such an occasion.


Rescue the frog.


[ Parent ]
Which one? (0.00 / 0)

  The pieces I saw on CNN were pretty much unrealistically pro-Israel but the worst (least objective) was MSNBC's Norah O'Donnell. Pat Buchannon had a fair assessment, whether anyone expects that or not, I don't know.

[ Parent ]
I don't know (0.00 / 0)
From about midnight to 1am.

Rescue the frog.

[ Parent ]
My bad. (0.00 / 0)
it was actually MSNBC.

Rescue the frog.

[ Parent ]
no matter, just curious (0.00 / 0)

  I was just wondering what I missed. Your observation sounds accurate. The majority of coverage I've seen has been unconditionally supporting all of Israel's actions while a very few have given more objective views. They would all do well to study the excellent, reasoned, informative, intelligent conversation in this diary. Thanks to all for giving us some valuable insight.

 


[ Parent ]
Maybe the spin zone ends (0.00 / 0)
in the wee hours????

Rescue the frog.

[ Parent ]
I've got the deed (5.00 / 1)
It's filed away here somewhere.

You might be surprised to know that America has never put American troops on the battlefield for Israel. America gave very little aid of any kind from 1948 to 1973.  Nixon reluctantly gave military aid, but no troops, in 1973.  Since then, American troops have never fought for Israel.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.


[ Parent ]
A deed (0.00 / 0)
Show me a fucking deed!

As you might have noted on the dKos thread, I pointed out there that King Abdullah, Jordan's King at the time Jordan attacked Israel in 1948, said Arabs SOLD most of the land to Jews.


[ Parent ]
this is very off-the-wall, but... (4.00 / 1)
... how about buying the Baja Peninsula and creating the Jewish State there?  Good weather, lots of waterfront and no longer surrounded by Muslims that want to kill them.  Sure, they have to give up the "Holy Land", but sacrifice for religious purposes is all over the Bible.

Yeah, it will be expensive to move everyone who wants to move, but I bet it will cost less than 10 years of military aid.

Okay, flame on...


No dice, Paul. (0.00 / 0)
n/m

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
got to have Palestine, eh? (0.00 / 0)
Why there?

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

[ Parent ]
Hey, Deward: (0.00 / 0)
Israel exists--it's here to stay, and there's nothing  you can do about it. 

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

[ Parent ]
Fuck Baja (0.00 / 0)
How about just giving them New York? Or Illinois? Or Colorado? Or why not just move all the Muslims and Arabs to Baja?

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

[ Parent ]
it may have seemed silly... (0.00 / 0)
... but I selected Baja because it's a similar latitude, certainly more temperate than Chicago and New York.  PLUS, it would be a lot cheaper.

Why not move the Muslims instead?  You mean, everyone from all of the surrounding countries, the billion or so that are said to outnumber the Jewish Israelis?  Aren't the logistics obvious?

How important is physical land versus a "state"?  The "state" may have physical boundaries, but exists in fact only in legal and political agreement.  Please explain to me the importance of settling the state in such hostile territory.  (And, full disclosure, you're dialoguing with a black American who doesn't know from where his ancestors originated)


[ Parent ]
5 million, 1 billion (0.00 / 0)
Once you get past a few thousand, it doesn't make that much difference.

What you are suggesting, basically, is uprooting millions of people and making them live somewhere else. Genocide, ethnic cleansing, it has many names.  It's never been right.

Let me ask you this -- is it just Israeli Jews you want to uproot, or would this also apply to Israeli Christians and Muslims (i.e., Israeli Arabs, who are ethnically Palestinian)?



In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.


[ Parent ]
please don't take this the wrong way... (10.00 / 2)
...because I'm not advocating the forced move of anybody from anywhere.  I don't want to uproot anyone.  I also understand what I'm proposing is on the far side of absurdity, and it is not my intention to hurt any feelings, but just to discuss an off-the-wall scenario.

Perhaps this was the wrong diary to float this idea in. I apologize to anyone who thinks I'm making light of the real-life situation.  I assure you, I am not.

But to answer your question about who would move, the idea was to address the concept of establishing a safe, uncontested Jewish State somewhere on this planet.  I never imagined that the borders of this State would be closed, but the immigration policy would certainly be left up to them.  So I guess if non-Jewish Israelis desired to relocate to a "New Israel", whether they would be welcome or not would depend on the policies of the new sovereign state.


[ Parent ]
Here's my guess (0.00 / 0)
The overwhelming number of Israelis would say, no thanks, we're staying put right where we are.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

[ Parent ]
I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning.. (0.00 / 0)
since we can look at a few examples where it didn't work.  Abraham Lincoln wanted to do the same thing with african-americans during the Civil War, although the location was Liberia.  He felt that the white man and the black man could never exist within the same borders without conflict.  I think it was Fredrick Douglass who refused the idea on behalf of black Americans.

Of course, the International Workers Party (uh..that would be the Communist Party) specifically proposed black revolution and the founding of a black nation in the South in 1930.  That one didn't go over either.

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish


[ Parent ]
Then again (8.00 / 2)
I think it was Fredrick Douglass who refused the idea on behalf of black Americans.

Apparently, some American blacks did not thnk that Douglass spooke for them, and actually did take the opportunity to go back to Africa, from which theyor their ancestors had been taken.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
And their descendants (0.00 / 0)
are the ones who tend to put Liberia over the edge into dictatorship and chaos every dozen years or so.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
What? You mean (0.00 / 0)
Charles Taylor isn't a native African name?

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
It's never been right. (3.00 / 1)
> uprooting millions of people and making them live somewhere else. Genocide, ethnic cleansing, it has many names.  It's never been right.

And yet that is *exactly* what Israel did to 3/4 million Palestinians, and is doing now in the West Bank.  All in the name of creating an ethnically pure "Jewish" state.

How would you propose to right that wrong ? ? ?



"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire


[ Parent ]
While I can't dispute that many Palestinians were displaced (0.00 / 0)
in 1948, many of them somewhat voluntarily, and many of them by force, it was nowhere near 3/4 of a million people. Virtually all of the privately owned land was purchased, and much of it from absentee owners, Arabs who did not reside in what became Israel.

The legend of a desire for ethnic purity, no matter how many times its repeated, still isn't true. 10's of thousands, maybe more, non-Jewish Palestinians became citizens of Israel in 1948, and remain citizens there today.

Too many Palestinians have died as a result of violence over the last 60 years. It should not be minimized. But it is not genocide. It is not ethnic cleansing. That kind of rhetoric is dangerous.


to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington


[ Parent ]
only a small fraction (0.00 / 0)
of the privately owned land was purchased.

read Benny Morris, or:

http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

It is denial that is dangerous . . .


"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire


[ Parent ]
Ship 'em off to your yard (4.50 / 2)
Then they can enjoy your sunny disposition, and you can enjoy theirs.  Match made in heaven. Do us all a favor, and STFU until you have something informed and intelligent to add.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

[ Parent ]
My copy of that booklet came from a Jewish friend (0.00 / 0)
in our local Israeli/Palestinian Friendship committee.  They have a hard time getting anyone to listen to them, too.

Vigilance is the price of freedom. That means us citizens, and not our professional military or its industrial complex bleeding us for every dollar they waste protecting corporate hegemony. That is part of what weakens citizens and puts us in danger.

[ Parent ]
I don't know how important is physical land. (0.00 / 0)
How important is your home, your city, your job, your schools, the community park you take your kids to?

Multiply that times an entire people.

Rescue the frog.


[ Parent ]
i hear what you're saying... (0.00 / 0)
... although for me personally, those things you mention are not so important that I wouldn't replace them for better.  Of course, "better" is completely subject, but I would much rather have all of those things in a neighborhood that I felt safe in, than in one in which my very life... and the lives of my loved ones... are constantly threatened.

Many thousands of black Americans "migrated" away from the Jim Crow-ruled South to escape such conditions.  Conversely, many thousands stayed... some fought, some died... the jury is still out about whether Jim Crow is fully dead (!)...


[ Parent ]
Although there was the romantic notion... (0.00 / 0)
of the judeo-christian culture of giving the jews their allegedly ancestral homeland (actually, I don't know why some people refuse to admit that Judaism, regardless of the dubius historical value of the Torah/Old Testament, did originate roughly in the area now known as Palestine/Israel).  The Roman histories definitely acknowledge them there, and it isn't like they shipped 'em in.)

It was also the fact that this was leftover land after the end of WWI, under mandate of the winners, the British and the French.  It was not heavily populated and there weren't any real countries there after the Ottoman Empire fell apart.  So they drew up a new map, the white people agreed upon it (that's pretty much the way things are done, even today) and that was that.  About 30 years later (after all that ugly Holocaust business, that the British, Russian, French and Americans weren't real active about putting down for a variety of reasons) the collective guilt about the 6 million dead Jews kind of forced their hand.

Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of Jews in Mexico, and it pretty much is a sovereign nation now, so it wouldn't be really fair.

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish


[ Parent ]
And just for snarks sake... (0.00 / 0)
If we did what you suggest, we could call the program Resettlement!!

Of course, that's what the Nazis called the Final Solution in public, and ironically, it has been what some call the Jewish settlements in the 1967 disputed lands.

Life is a funny old dog.  I think some of them (on both sides) might complain.

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish


[ Parent ]
Jews in Mexico (5.00 / 2)
You might be surprised. This is something I learned about while living in New Mexico a few years ago. Across the American southwest and into Mexico, there are secret Jews, driven into hiding 500 years ago with the Spanish Inquisition. They were given a choice between converting to Catholicism or expulsion, and many converted. Of those converts, a very significant number continued to practice Judaism in secrecy. They are called conversos. 

Anyway, alot of these conversos came to the New World following Columbus, and settled across the American southwest and in Mexico. And to this day, many of them continue their secret practices. They light candles on Friday nights behind drawn curtains. They don't eat shellfish or pork because "everyone in our family is allergic."  They have Biblical first names and Spanish surnames that reference some aspect of nature. For example, you'll find gravestones where the first name of the deceased is Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Esther, Ruth, etc. And certain surnames are dead giveaways. In New Mexico, the Delgado family is extremely prominent, and many of them are conversos although they will deny it vociferously. Also on the gravestones, you'll see both Christian imagery and Jewish symbols, interwoven.  Some know exactly who they are and what they are doing, while others continue these strange traditions without knowing why. This is going on today, after 500 years.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.


[ Parent ]
Oh, I know you're right... (0.00 / 0)
but I was talking about "big" demographic numbers, where there might exist some justification (however weird) to uproot the existing gentile population to replace the Jews. 

Actually, the "secret" Jews exist in almost every nation, after the Diaspora, they often went underground (much like those pesky Christians in Rome) to fit in to gentile society, and to avoid that burning at the stake thing.

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish


[ Parent ]
But (7.67 / 3)
you never expect the Spanish Inquisition!

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
a more just settlement (8.75 / 4)
would have given them a sizeable chunk of central europe, with some serious reparations from every country that sided or cooperated with the nazis, including the swiss. the fact that europe was able to just redraw lines in the ME to avoid dealing with a problem of its own making is at the core of all of this, ie. colonialism. the fact that the residents of the palestinian mandate, jewish and arab alike, had no say in the drawing of their own borders is often forgotten in all the argument.

regardless, people are where they are now, and fantasies of once again redrawing lines to suit whims are both arrogant and utterly beside the point, as you point out above. the people down there are going to have to learn to live with one another, and our policies in the region ought to be focused on helping to aid and encourage such interdependence, and conversely discourage this perpetual internecine bloodletting, IMO.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat


[ Parent ]
Even more just (7.00 / 2)
would be to carve out a smaller Israel, with access to jerusalem, but reserved for the Sephardim.  the rest would be sent to Germany.  meanwhile, all the Turks in Germany would then be sent to Turkey.

Then, all the Germans would be sent back to Cental Asia, and be replaced by Celts from ireland, Scotland, and Wales.  Then the Turks would be kicked out of Asia Minor, and csent back to Central Asia.  Asia minor would be given to the Kurds and Armenians, and other groups formerly indigenous there.

IOn egypt, genetic studies would be done, and anyone with more Arabic blood than Egyptian would be oused and sent back to Syria.  Elsewhere in africa, the Bantus would be kicked off of land they wrested from older peoples.

In America, where to start?  All white people would be sent back to Europe, with all but the Celts ultimately sent to Asia Minor.  Those with Aztec ancestory would be removed from central mexico back to the lands north from which they came.  Inca incursions north of their original lands would be reversed.

there are,m i suppose, certainb people in euroipe who can trace ancestory to before the Celts came from the East.  They may ask that the Celts be sent back to Tocheria.

In India, the Aryans would be rounded up to be sent back through iran, picking up those Aryan people, and both be sent to Asia Minor.  Ultimately, all the Germanic peoples would be sent back to Asia Minor.  In russia, the would be sent back to Sweden, and then, ultimately, bck to Asia Minor.

meanwhile, back in America, PETA would file a lawsuit on behalf of the armadillo and the oppossum, as well as the species decimated by humans, like the mammoth and the horse, and demand that Amerinds, inuit, and na-Dene people be sent back to northern Asia.

Now, does anyone have any idea what to do with the Ainu people in japan?  how do we get all those han people in China back to their historic homeland?

....................

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
The Basques (7.00 / 1)
are the only people in Europe who have a claim to be truly "indigenous". They're the ones who would insist that the Celts (and the Romans) go home. And the Ainu in Japan are the earliest people we know; it's the non-Ainu Japanese who need repatriation.

Also, don't forget much of Northern Africa has Phoenician roots and needs to go back to Lebanon; the English have to be sent off with the Germans (who don't go to Asia Minor, but around the north end of the Black Sea with most of the rest of the Indo-Europeans); the Indo-Aryan speakers (India, Persia, Kurds, Tajiks) end up somewhere around Tajikstan and Kazakhstan; the Celts get Hungary and the Hungarians/Magyars go back to the steppes of Mongolia and Siberia...

And eventually, everybody gets dumped back in Sub-Saharan Africa. ;-)

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
Thanks, mirrim (0.00 / 0)
for noticing this omment.

I think i remember one other group with ancient roots in Europe besides the Basque.  Can't remember now.

don't forget much of Northern Africa has Phoenician roots and needs to go back to Lebanon

Now would be the time!

So far as i know, ALL Indo-Europeans are traced toi Asia minor, but those who got to Europe, for the most part, did so by going around the Black Sea.

And eventually, everybody gets dumped back in Sub-Saharan Africa.

i wish I'd have said that!

Just think, Africa will be hit hard in the global warming.  The last time there was a pervasive wqrming and drying in Africa, well, hominids like us evolved.

Maybe, if we all went back there, it could happen again.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Homo neanderthalensis (0.00 / 0)
All Homo sapiens must leave Europe, Africa, and Asia. They may remain in North and South America, as well as Australia.  Europe, Africa, and Asia are from today forward reserved for Homo neanderthalensis and Homo habilis.  However, members of those two species are no allowed into Africa, which is reserved for various Australopithicenes.

[ Parent ]
I prefer Antarctica (7.00 / 2)
Sure, it's cold there now, but with global warming, in another fifty years it will be prime real estate, and far away from everyone.

national shopping boycott April 15 - April 22 www.wearenotbuyingit.org

[ Parent ]
Utah. (7.00 / 1)
I have, in the past, proposed giving them Utah.  One side or the other.  They can flip for it.

The Mormons can just go back wherever they came from . . . they're all Americans anyway . . .

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire


[ Parent ]
American Indians (3.00 / 1)
If the American Indians got together and took over New Mexico, declared it a "new" country and got the UN to recognized it, the New Mexicans living their at present wouldn't be pissed off?  If the Zionists would go back to the 1948 lines and renounce agression perhaps we would have some Peace. Couple that with our reestablishing full diplomatic relations with Iran and Peace might break out across the Middle East. Peace

Ah, New Mexico (9.00 / 1)
An interesting place. There are three basic groups of people who live in New Mexico. One is the Anglos, who are non-hispanic and non-Indian.  They are the most recent group to take up residence in New Mexico. Then you have the Hispanic New Mexicans, who came with the Conquistadors at the end of the 16th century. They are Hispanic, and New Mexican, but they are decidedly NOT Mexican. They are extremely proud of their heritage, which predates what most Americans learn about in our grade school history classes.  And then there are the Indians, who live on the various pueblos (Zuni, Acoma, Santa Clara, etc.) and in the Navajo and Hopi nations. They go back much farther, more than 1000 years, and their origins are lost  in myth.  We can visit the cliff dwellings of the Anasazi, but where are the Anasazi today? What happened to them? Nobody really knows.  And the Indians came to New Mexico from somewhere else, too, supposedly Asia.  They, too, are immigrants.

I suppose if we all go back to our origins, it will become mighty crowded in Olduvai Gorge.  Bring water, and a hat.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.


[ Parent ]
stupid fucking gentiles and jews (2.00 / 1)
still you persist?  did you read I word I said above?  These are your brethren. Fuckin humans.
I need a cigarette.

unfortunately... (0.00 / 0)
wishing doesn't make it so.

Hang in there with the quitting, I need a lot of role models.


DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish


[ Parent ]
Thanks for the post, (7.00 / 1)
to truly know the present, one must know the past.

That said, if the wingnits ever get wind of this, they'll blame the whole thing on Wilson and his commie League of Nations.

I remember as a child, having various maps tacked to my wall, thinking, "That TransJordan sure looks weird, kinda like one o' them West Texas desert counties drawn by some alderman's brother-in-law with a rapidly diminishing bottle of whisky and a straight edge."

"The greatest blessing bestowed on a people - the absence of ignorance in public office." - Confucius


Slightly off topic (0.00 / 0)
...but did anyone mention this?

Israel: Hezbollah Drone Attacks Warship

The Israeli warship, which had been carrying several dozen sailors, was towed to Haifa after suffering heavy damage. The fire was put out after several hours. The military confirmed news reports that four sailors were missing and said a search for them was underway.

The Israeli army said the source of the attack was still under investigation. But military officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the probe, said the ship had been targeted by an unmanned drone.

The explanation indicated Hezbollah has added a new weapon to the arsenal of rockets and mortars it has used against Israel.

  Was Hezbollah's drone capability widely known?


Rumi (0.00 / 0)
I had the same question in a diary over at BT. It all sounded too much like Bush's SOTU address bullshit to me. But others in the diary pointed me to reports that Hezbollah does in fact have that capability.

Diary at BT


[ Parent ]
The next logical question (0.00 / 0)
...or two.

  If they've had this capability for some time and it was common knowledge, is it a factor that this capability hasn't been used more often? How in the world can a presumed alert status warship not notice a slow flying drone coming at them and prevent it from hitting?


[ Parent ]
Another point of view (0.00 / 0)
This is another version of History worth reading as well. There is also the take from Benjamin Schwarz. It shows why holding on to the captured territories is not to Israel's advantage, a view also held by Friedman when he wrote in 2002: "History and demographics are ganging up on Israel".

Vote stupid = get stupid (0.00 / 0)
The real problem is at least 40% of voters are too stupid to vote on the issues and instead treat an election as if its a football match. Consequently we all suffer from power hungry leaders with bad ideas, manipulative tendencies, stupid policies and large bank balances. Bottom line is... it IS the peoples fault, with the UK and USA being prime examples, (I'm UK).

Until thats resolved, (if ever), we will all have to expect more of the same. Personally I agree with Klaatu Barada Nikto. take the innocents out and let the remaining wipe each other out and do us all a favour. The world could do without this nonsense. Once again a few make it a misery for the rest. Vote stupid = get stupid.




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