This Year's October Surprise?

These souless Killers (11.00 / 3)

have got to be stopped!  Their only concern is MONEY and WORLD DOMINATION. . .EMPERORS OF THE REALM!

They do not care who they kill, in what country, including the USA.  Men, Women, Children, it matters not to them.  This is not about Religion, any religion.  It is about MONEY and POWER and nothing else.  They will not stop until they control every economy in the world!

Where do we stand and how do we bring these murders down?  Three more months (or years or decades) of this cannot be tolerated!

Read more Shirl at Village Blue and Matters of Spirit

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by: shirlstars @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 18:28:39 PM CDT

Gosh that felt good. . . (0.00 / 0)

Need to yell that stuff out now and then!

Okay, this is just a something to have in your little bag. of just how far out can these murdering killers go.  You use your own judgement on what is truth, what is fact and what is total BS.

Personally I believe nothing I read or hear anymore, from either side.  Lying has become the way of all things political. 

If you need some grains of salt to take this with, just holler, I'll send them over.

On the other hand, is there anything more dangerous than not imagining how far these insane neocons are willing to go?  No one thought the 3rd riech would go where they went either.

And frankly how our government can support Israel in this one takes more fairy dust than I have access to.  We support killers because we are killers.  There ya go.  The running scared Dems are indefensable when they condone murder of children, women and men who are total innocents.  That goes for Iraq too.

Don't get me started. . . .

Read more Shirl at Village Blue and Matters of Spirit

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by: shirlstars @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 22:52:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You fucking hellraiser, you ;-) (0.00 / 0)

If I didn't know better, I'd say you're probably an internet conspiracy theorist or something. Maybe a "freeper troll" or worse...anyway, this is the first hotspot I've found in about a week and access has been limited.

Not to hijack the thread or anything, just wanted to check in and say the postcard's in the mail.

Good to see you out here, Shirl, and on the front page no less!

I was happy to get a bit more background on Madsen, actually...

Love and golddust to you ....

Me. (en route to Berlin)

And she lived happily ever after in her Hobbithole in the Hood

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by: deus ex mechanic @ Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 08:26:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Golly! (10.00 / 1)

But Time Magazine said Bush wouldn't be a cowboy anymore. You mean that's not True?

And Israel invaded Lebanon because Hezbollah captured two Israli soldiers.
'
Golly.......!!!

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 19:16:09 PM CDT

The soldiers were captured in Lebanon! (11.00 / 1)

Good grief!

Two Military soldiers, members of the Israeli Defense Force, were captured illegally invading a foreign country ( and I agree, two guys is not much of an invasion), but is enough to justify Israel's massive war criminal re-invasion of Lebanon?

I don't think so.

And neither  would the Hague or Geneva if you asked them.

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by: gogol @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 01:53:57 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Source? (0.00 / 0)

Anything? The NY Times? LA Times? London Times?  Haaretz?  Washington Post?

Do you have anything to backup your assertion?

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

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by: Paul in San Francisco @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 10:01:57 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not the OP (8.50 / 2)

but I didn't see this addressed in any comments downthread.  I saw the assertion posted in a comment on a Kos diary yesterday.  The link given is here.

Most of the links in the article are to reports which occurred immediately after the soldiers were kidnapped/captured, so the question is whether the account has been clarified or covered up in subsequent days. 

At this point, I don't know if it is really important to determine whether they were in Lebanon or Israel.  What matters to me is the loss of human life on both sides of the border.

Even if someone had iron-clad proof that the soldiers were on a raid in Lebanon, and Israel's reaction was pre-planned and orchestrated by Dick Cheney personally in an attempt to get to Syria and Iran, while shoring up the Republican position in the fall elections, I don't know that it would get any notice.  The U.S. media will go on looking for the next missing white girl story.

Insert witty quote here.

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by: puzzled @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 10:55:58 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I read the same (0.00 / 0)

but I dont remember where..

I found this though:
http://www.whatreall...

although how we can confirm this I dont know, since this site is obv not the original source. I suppose if one wanted to they can search for the quotes on Google.

Red Highways

ouhite

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by: ouhite @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 11:36:46 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yeah, doesn't count (0.00 / 0)

I'm talking about a real source, something with a reputation, not a rumor mill.  You'd think if there was a credible, reputable source, these people would have bookmarked it for contstant use in the ISM talking points, so the absence of any link tells me all I need to know.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

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by: Paul in San Francisco @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 11:39:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

there is indeed an article in the asia times, (0.00 / 0)

as I found thru the drinking liberally forum, but whether they are trustworthy and more so over others depends on your judgement. I for one already know that the mainstream medias can lie and do it a lot, so its a bit hard to "compare".

Red Highways

ouhite

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by: ouhite @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 11:55:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Interestingly... (0.00 / 0)

theres something on one of the soldiers on Wikipedia, and it quotes another outside site.

(I know the soldier's name is that because of the bbc website

http://news.bbc.co.u...

)

Ehud Goldwasser
http://en.wikipedia....

of course, wiki is prob still very prone to disputes, and you may not know who the author of that post is, however you can check out the source they cite.

as well theres a poster on Drinking LIberally that says the same.. but apparently the french article on voltaires site is not translated, not on their English version..

http://www.drinkingl...

Red Highways

ouhite

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by: ouhite @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 11:52:45 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I have a question (0.00 / 0)

  If Israel establishes a 19 mile 'cushion' of safety inside Lebanon, from missile strikes, will captured soldiers be considered taken in Israeli land due to the control?

 

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by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 11:55:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I remember (10.00 / 1)

Edward Said mentioning (in 2003) that some neo-cons had advised Netanyahu's 96 campaign:

The American people have thus been deliberately lied to, their interests cynically misrepresented and misreported, the real aims and intentions of this private war of Bush the son and his junta concealed with complete arrogance. Never mind that Wolfowitz, Feith, and Perle, all of them unelected officials who work for unelected Donald Rumsfeld at the Pentagon, have for some time openly advocated Israeli annexation of the West Bank and Gaza and the cessation of the Oslo process, have called for war against Iraq (and later Iran), and the building of more illegal Israeli settlements in their capacity (during Netanyahu's successful campaign for prime minister in 1996) as private consultants to him, and that that has become US policy now.

I never did anymore research than that on the subject..

-deano

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by: dknow @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 19:42:34 PM CDT

Cheney runs all foriegn policy (6.67 / 3)

look up PNAC; its fucking terrifying that this cabal plans this so far in advance, they will settle for no less than world domination and "endless war"

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by: Diane W @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 19:54:41 PM CDT

long reply trail (10.00 / 3)

and yeah I read it all.

I do not find it far fetched for Cheney to have run through the scenerio with the Israelis before they attacked Lebanon.  Seriously, do you think for a minute they would have done something so out of line with Reasonable Response without our backing and approval?

Now, I understand Paul, that you are used to defending the Jewish against the knee-jerk "everything's their fault" people.  Is it not equally knee-jerk to say Israel can do no wrong?  Thats like saying OUR government can do no wrong.

The fact remains, PNAC has had a long-war scenario in the works for years, and compromising with countries with similiar interests is not beyond the realm of possibility.

Can we at least consider it, and investigate it further?  Without all the hoopla? 

Unfortunately, as far as the US involvement in the M. E.; one only has to look at a map, and see that we have now CREATED a bunch of angry, now vengeful people and we are the 600 in the valley of millions.  Our involvement has done nothing but destabilize the region.

I find it telling we can't even have a discussion about it here, without the inevitable explosion.
People are generally good, in all parts of the world, but people in power are usually corrupted by it.  No govt is blameless in this mess.

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by: Diane W @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 06:54:38 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sourcing? (5.25 / 4)

The only problem is, where does Madsen get his information?  Did he attend any of these meetings personally? I doubt it, or he would have said so. Did he speak with anyone who did attend the meetings, who gave him the information? If so, why doesn't he identify or at least describe his source with enough specificity to move beyond the "I make shit up so credulous bloggers will read my website" level?  He provides absolutely no corroboration of what actually transpired at any of these meetings, beyond vague allusions to "well-connected" people who live in DC. Wow, that could be Tom Friedman. Or Robert Novak. 

In addition, Benjamin Netanyahu and Natan Sharansky hardly wield alot of influence in the current government. The fact that they sat down with Dick Cheney is about as dispositive as Chuck Schumer and Zoe Lofgren sitting down with Tony Blair.  Also, he continues to perpetuate this stuff about how the Israeli soldiers were captured on the Lebanese side of the border, despite the fact that not a single reputable source backs him up.

Sorry folks, but I call bullshit. At least hold Madsen to the same minimal standard that you hold reputable journalists.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

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by: Paul in San Francisco @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 20:01:25 PM CDT

Here is a link (11.00 / 2)

to the actual 1996 Policy Statement

Clean Break

Another blog speaking of it:Here

More comments on Clean Break Media  Monitor Network

"But what is "A Clean Break?" What are the plan's core assumptions? How has it affected US regional policy? What insights does it reveal about US policy initiatives in the Middle East? How do Arab countries perceive current US regional policy? Are Clean Break assumptions and strategies beneficial to US interests? What are the potential costs? The IRmep Capitol Hill Forum took place on Wednesday, November 26th 2003 from 10 a.m. to 12 noon in the Gold Room of the Rayburn Congressional House Office Building. Our distinguished and diverse panel of experts and IRmep analysts  reviewed the implications of A Clean Break and took questions from the public. Panel members included Adam Shapiro of the International Solidarity Movement, former congressional candidate and Million Man March leader Dr. E. Faye Williams, Imad Moustapha, Charge d'Affaires of the Syrian Embassy; Khaled Dawoud, D.C. bureau chief of Al-Ahram; and Adib Farha, adviser of the Lebanese Minister of Finance and professor at the Lebanese American University in Beirut, Lebanon.

Broadcast: C-Span: November 26, 2003 "

If you google Clean Break Policy, you will find about 40,000 references. . .

Credible?  You decide. . .I'm not that smart {grins}

Read more Shirl at Village Blue and Matters of Spirit

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by: shirlstars @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 20:38:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So what? (5.33 / 3)

That was written ten years ago. It proves nothing. Madsen is a kook who regularly posts Israel conspiracy theories on his website, which have the same effect on desperate Israel-haters that the sugared cereal display in grocery stores has on 4-year olds.

Are you even aware that Likud isn't part of the current Israeli government, that Netanyahu has been an also-ran for years, and Sharansky is a never-was?  If you are going to trot the theory out that the Likud controls the US and Israeli governments, does the fact that Likud isn't part of the Israeli governing coalition give you even a moment's pause?

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

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by: Paul in San Francisco @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:01:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yep ... (10.00 / 2)

The sources that I follow more frequently refer to "Clean Break" as "Securing the Realm" which, as noted in other comments, is fundamental to the PNAC philosophy. I have said more than once that "Securing the Realm" is essentially Bush's foreign policy, and "Starving the Beast" is his domestic policy. Paul Krugman wrote a great article, "The Tax-Cut Con" (NY Times, September 14, 2003) that detailed that strategy. If you don't know about "Starving the Beast," a Google search will produce results that will raise your blood pressure significantly.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." -A.Einstein

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by: DaveG @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:03:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Clean Break (7.00 / 1)

was, in fact written for Netanyehu.

It was rejected by him, and his cabinet.

Next.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

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by: Kane in CA @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:09:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ya think thats amusing shirlstars? (0.00 / 0)

It wasn't meant to be amusing.

It was meant to be enlightening. Its fact.

Assuming it to be comedy would be foolish.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

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by: Kane in CA @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 23:48:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yep (0.00 / 0)

I have a strange sense of humor. . .but then, when you are me you have to.

I guess I couldn't get the light right to be enlightened, but that's no surprise either.

Please source your FACT.  And then I may not be so amused.

Read more Shirl at Village Blue and Matters of Spirit

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by: shirlstars @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 01:42:58 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Here (10.50 / 2)

link

Note the names of the contributors at this site includes none other than noted Israeli basher Juan Cole.

In 1996, incoming Prime Minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu commissioned a think tank to propose a solution to the Palestinian problem. Comprising Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, and David Wurmser, it proposed a “Clean Break” -- i.e., to sever negotiations with Yasir Arafat and democratize the Middle East by bombing Lebanon; next, to invade Syria for having weapons of mass destruction; and finally, to replace Saddam Hussein with a Hashemite ruler favorable to Israel. Rejected by Netanyahu, the group returned to America and organized the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) with Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Scooter Libby, Steve Cambone, et al. In 1998, the PNAC sought a resolution in Congress for regime change in Iraq.

It isn't that complicated. It isn't Israeli policy dictating US policy. Its the same group of whacked out neocons attempting to influence both. Not for the benefit of Israel, but to further their own whacked out agenda. Their influence has yeilded some success in achieving their goals in both countries.

Do a search for "clean break rejected" and you will find similar sources here, and here.

Now wipe that smile off your face.

(

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

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by: Kane in CA @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 10:11:38 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Journalists use anonymous sourcing regularly (9.50 / 2)

  They're forced to these days. Nobody wants to be responsible for their own quotes. Several points are indisputable and speculation is always subject to interperatation. Calling bullshit on the entire piece doesn't do justice to the people who do see the possibilities.

  I'm not saying it's word for word true but we can each make up our own mind as to the credibility of specific claims.

  Rafik Hariri's assasination could be attributed to several different groups that aren't even overtly political and least of all specifically Israel.

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by: rumi @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 20:14:32 PM CDT

Yes, you are right (3.50 / 2)

The Smurfs had Hariri assassinated, but only because when the aliens kidnapped Hariri and took him back to the mother ship, which was orbiting Alpha Centauri (presently occupied by Israel, of course), Hariri refused to submit to the anal probe.  How do I know all this?  Well-connected people in DC, namely (and I go farther than Madsen in revealing this), the busboy at Jack Abramoff's restaurant.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

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by: Paul in San Francisco @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:04:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's not necessary, Paul (9.00 / 1)

  If you don't like the conversation, don't participate but there's no need for trollish behavior.

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by: rumi @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:13:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yup (7.50 / 2)

It shouldn't be, but I get pretty frustrated by a lack of critical thinking, sometimes.  Just because something's possible doesn't make it probable, or even plausible.  It's possible for monkeys to fly out my ass, but that doesn't mean we should accord the notion with the same respect that we accord to the notion that I will sleep 3 hours tonight.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

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by: Paul in San Francisco @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 22:16:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

FYI, RE: Wayne Madsen (8.75 / 4)

From dKOS FAQ, Recommending diaries

Note: Please use common sense when recommending diaries. Diaries that rely entirely on unreliable sources such as Wayne Madsen, Capitol Hill Blue, Jason Leopold, or Lyndon LaRouche are generally not considered acceptable. Recommending poorly sourced conspiracy theory diaries may result in banning without warning for all recommenders.

So, I would suggest that everyone should be careful about mentioning this article, or Wayne Madsen in genral, on dKOS.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." -A.Einstein

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by: DaveG @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 20:30:57 PM CDT

This place ain't Orange (7.33 / 3)

  They can have whatever rules they want at other places. I go by the rules that apply here, when I'm here. I have no doubt Maryscott would verbally smack me around to remind of the rules but I generally rely on inherent respect for others to get by.

:-)

  I would suggest that the sources listed as doubtful in the prior comment are no less unreliable than some of the big name, occasionally inaccurate, A List bloggers that ask for trust while denouncing others

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by: rumi @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 20:38:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Daily Gloss Wants to Be on MSM (4.00 / 3)

I notice that people on Daily Kos refer more often to Fox News than they do Democracy Now, Robert Fisk, Gore Vidal, Dahr Jamail.

So the establishment, the MSM is the thing by which all things are measured. Booman, Mary Scot and No one that I know of from Daily Gloss has ever appeared or pehaps ever been invited to appear on Amy Goodman's Democracy Now!

But they have been invited to appear on Hack MSM show which they readily do and then proclaims themselves to be legitamate source of information.

You guys have got to get away from Fox News. These liberal websites are in essense very conservative and supportive of American Policy in Iraq, Isreal and Latin America.

It's because everyone is watching Fox News and then getting all upset at the lies. If all you hear are lies, you may not be able to know what is true or at least what is different from the lies.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:15:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I've watched Fox for about 10 years (6.00 / 1)

...or whenevr it was that it came to my cable company. It must have been 96 or 98 but it's been a helluva roller coaster for me to watch.

:-)

  I like most of the people because I can tune out the rhetoric. Murdoch knows how to make watchable programming and their 'news' news can have good coverage. It tips me off as to what to look at closer and find more info on.

  I like most of the Fox people and most of them are real if you hang in with it long enough. Some are just socially maladjusted beyond rehabilitation...:-) The early early morning and morning weekend shift folks are hilarious and basically a lot like most of us here.

  I know what you're saying there Stu...just wanted to toss that in. I guess I'm saying that all of them are essentially the same.

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by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:33:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Don't Even Joke (0.00 / 0)

Rumi....they are all awful. They are ugly people.

Rita Cosby is ugly...she was on there
Orielly is ugly
Those blonde robots are ugly

Whaddya talking about.

I watch it for a second to see what they are saying, not for information. What is the Right thinking. Same with the Drudge Report.

Listening to Bill Kristol is informative because he's telling Bush what to do ...him and his buddies.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:40:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

They must've kept Rita on script (6.00 / 1)

when she was at Fox. MSNBC gives her freedom to ask whatever she wants....who knows why.

lol...my favorites don't seem all that interested in politics if given a choice. They definitely stray from the party line. O'Reilly's a hack and I wouldn't give a nickel for any of the manipulative financial folks. One of the most memorable moments was in 02/03 when Rep Rangel started to come across the desk to throttle Hannityjob for calling him unpatriotic....thought Charlie was going to kill him....saw live, when O'Reilly made an ass of himself disrespecting Jeremy Glick and his father...Alyson, Lis,...real people, I think and  Megyn Kendall is a uniquely brilliant, impartial, focused, fun person to watch explain legal issues in entertaining understandability. Of course, there are some that should be shot...metaphorically.

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by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:56:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Maybe (6.00 / 1)

That's why I don't post on DK anymore. . .so many rules about inconvenient things like election fraud. . ., Israel's right to bomb parts of Lebanon off the map. . ., the single issue women's study group issues. . .stuff like that.  The thought police are just so nosey and rude. They are always knocking my tin-foil hat off, and that tends to make me grumpy.

I like it here where people know I am a crazy old woman and humor me anyway.  Fortunately, they are intelligent enough to figure out on their own what they choose to believe.  Saves me a lot of work trying to tell them what they should believe.

You folks on Kos might want to ease up and laugh a little from time to time. But, whatever pulls your chain.

Read more Shirl at Village Blue and Matters of Spirit

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by: shirlstars @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 02:01:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hi Shirl, (8.50 / 2)

I'm not a Kossack (per se), as I'm not a Democrat, and don't like the "thought police" rules on dKos as I'm into free speech. But there is something to be learned there, so I visit and don't object ... just as I wouldn't go into someone's house and insult them.

As for Wayne Madsen, he seems to be a bit radical, and he obviously has an agenda ... but doesn't everyone? I pass through Wayne Madsen's site fairly regularly, but like all other sources, I consider what he says within the framework of what I think I know. I don't think any one source has a monopoly on the truth, which is what really interests me.

My FYI was just that ... not an admonishment to anyone about what they should say or think.

Maybe you could try a string or hat pin to keep your tin-foil hat in place.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." -A.Einstein

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by: DaveG @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 02:39:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks Dave (0.00 / 0)

You have been informative and entertaining, a rare combination. 

Appreciate the tips on the hat accessories too.  I'll give them a try.

Don't misunderstand my snark. . .I still read at Kos when I have time.  I don't hate the DK.  There are lots of writers and participants there that I enjoy very much.  I just have very different values and political strategy thoughts than Mr. Kos, the self proclaimed Libertarian (or at least Libertarian ideology).  Now please don't everyone else start a long back and forth about no he's not, yes he is, no he's not, okay?  I am far too liberal for that site.  No biggie, just how it shakes out.

Thanks for participating here, Dave.

Read more Shirl at Village Blue and Matters of Spirit

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by: shirlstars @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:29:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't know who fired the first shot in this particular skirmish, (0.00 / 0)

but this passage from Madsen's site might explain a few things

July 24, 2006 -- The phony Democrats and Fifth Columnists at Daily Kos are conducting a campaign against Georgia progressive Rep. Cynthia McKinney. The truth is that Daily Kos finds McKinney way too progressive, which is a standard reaction for a group that is supported by special interest money. Over here at WMR, we're not so afraid as to hide our progressive politics. Please find some way to help McKinney beat back a special interests-funded challenge being waged from within the Democratic Party. The Hank Johnsons (McKinney's out-of-state funded opponent) and DailyKoses are what are really wrong with the Democratic Party. It's time for a good old-fashioned political party purge! If you live in the Georgia 4th District or neighboring districts in the Atlanta area you can help McKinney with your time in helping to get out the vote!

There were a few more like that over there.

Thankfully, we have no such purge rules at MLW.

"Truth has no time of its own. Its hour is now -- always, and indeed then most truly when it seems most unsuitable to actual circumstances."

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by: roysol @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 11:55:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

what does this explain? (0.00 / 0)

  I'm not being rude but I think I'm missing what you're implying.

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by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:03:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The parent to my comment was the blockquote by DaveG, (0.00 / 0)

from the Dkos rules, stating that Madsen was a dis-approved source, and recommending diaries that cite Madsen was grounds for instant banning.

So, it's possible that Dkos took that action after Madsen started taking shots at Dkos, or that Madsen started harping on Dkos after they deemed him persona non grata.

Or, perhaps they just independently hate each other  ;-)

Just some sheer speculation, in keeping with the diary  ;-)


"Truth has no time of its own. Its hour is now -- always, and indeed then most truly when it seems most unsuitable to actual circumstances."

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by: roysol @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:29:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks, that makes sense. (6.00 / 1)

  I'm guilty of using the recent comment view when a diary gets to a point of 'slogging through tubes' to download...that Ted Stevens is hilarious.

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by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:38:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No offense (4.00 / 1)

But please, please, PLEASE do not think Wayne Madsen is credible at all. I'm not saying this because of dKos policy. It's because I read some of the crap he put out during the post-election stuff of 2004, and he claimed that the voting machines were rigged and it all somehow tied back to BCCI.

For the sake of credibility, do not believe a single word Wayne Madsen says.

Deny My Freedom
"Inconvenient truths do not go away just because they are not seen." -Al Gore

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by: PsiFighter37 @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:09:06 PM CDT

But but but (7.50 / 2)

but but but he said "israel" and "likud" and "netanyahu" and "neocon" and "clean break!"  So it must be true!

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

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by: Paul in San Francisco @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:11:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's Okay (0.00 / 0)

I don't believe anything the MainSteam Press says, or anything the Republican's say, Anything The Pres., Vice Pres, Sec. of State, Sec. of Defense, et al say, very little of what the Dems say, nothing of what the talking heads on either side say. . .so what's one more fairy tale?

I think usually grown up people can read, google for more info, and use their own judgement.

I just take it in as a possibility and even the possibility makes me seeth with anger.

You haven't presented any credible evidence other than Dkos' say so to educate me further.  Sorry, but your say so isn't worth any more than mine is.  Bummer. . .but I take your caution in the manner in which you intended it and thank you for your reminders.

Thanks for participating.

Read more Shirl at Village Blue and Matters of Spirit

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by: shirlstars @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 22:24:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This really struck a nerve (10.00 / 1)

  That is one of the most reliable signs of credibility.

Pau, are you trying to say that former politicians have no influence when they leave office? Try telling that to J Woolsey...or Richard Perle...or any of the many that run  countries from behind their curtain.

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by: rumi @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:17:38 PM CDT

I'm sorry (6.00 / 3)

but because something strikes a nerve it is credible?

So anything that appeals to one's emotions is true?

Then I guess when George Bush said we were going to get the people responsible for the 9/11 attacks while standing on that pile of rubble, he was as credible as it gets.

Emotions, much like people, are fairly easy to manipulate.

Especially when your audience wants so bad to believe.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:22:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

George Bush wasn't being emotional... (11.00 / 2)

...he was lying.  As always.

---

by: grunmann @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:33:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No he wasn't being emotional (8.00 / 2)

he was appealing to the emotions of others.  If you don't think it worked I'd be forced to ask where you've been these last 5 years.

I'm sorry but irony seems to be all I see these days.

We constantly mock Americans as being sheeple who believe what the liars say because they would prefer that to the truth and then when someone points out that this is not a one way street to the Right, it is labeled bullshit.

How about the Leopold fiasco?

Didn't he lie and manipulate the emotions of everyone who was hoping so hard to see the frog march?

How is it different?

My point was that striking nerves has very little to do with credibility.

Apparently since I've struck one here, all that I say is in fact true.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:43:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No, and I think that's obvious (10.00 / 1)

I've made reasonable arguments to support a few possible ways of weeding through the massive manipulation and disinformation that comes with most credible information these days.

If you want more, then I'd have to say Madsen has an agenda, but who in the hell doesn't? We could agree that journalists in the line of WM are deliberately fed disinformation but that helps my argument, not yours. I admit that it happens and encourage people to decide for themselves. I'm not one looking to establish 'approved' sources for information.

  In the dangerous, dark, devious internets, any online persona could be someone other than who they claim to be. Actions or behavior that are out of chatacter or disproportionate to the situation cause speculation for a reason. Sometimes, the reaction is the best indicator of the veracity of outrageous claims because of an unusually strong response to discount it. Some call it a tangential part of behavior modeling. Others might refer to it as a rigorous intuition.

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by: rumi @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:37:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

See (5.00 / 1)

this is what Weeping is talking about in his diary.

You say:

"Sometimes, the reaction is the best indicator of the veracity of outrageous claims because of an unusually strong response to discount it. Some call it a tangential part of behavior modeling. Others might refer to it as a rigorous."

Or some might call it a group of reasonable people doubting outrageous, unsourced claims of an individual.

Instead of examining why YOU believe an unsourced claim, you take a larger group's discounting of said claim as a sign that it might in fact be true do to some behavioral issue of THEIRS.

Sounds awfully like religion to me.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:50:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes Jake, make it all about religion (10.00 / 1)

  I never said I believed an unsourced claim. I said early on, that some information in the article was indisputable and that speculation is always open to interperatation. You chopped my quote, too. That's pretty disingenuous.

  You forgot to accuse me of the most damaging claims possible though.

---

by: rumi @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 22:21:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Look (7.00 / 1)

Rumi, this isn't an attack and it certainly isn't personal.

The chopping of the quote was bad cut and paste, not malicious conniving on my part. 

My only point was in response to your remark regarding credibility and struck nerves.

But it is an important point from where I stand as this issue comes up again and again and again.

And it is about religion.  Not all religions require old men with beards. 

As Weeping's diary noted, it is important to apply critical examination to our own beliefs, no matter how funadamental they may be, if we are who we say we are.

And the mideast issue is a flash point for a lot of those beliefs, and in my mind the reason this conflict rages on and on is because of the salesmen on both sides who are peddling raw, hot-blooded emotion to a very eager buying public.

I guess my question would be, do you believe this report on it's merits or do you believe this report because it reinforces what you already believe?


(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 22:31:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Liberals? (4.00 / 3)

Rumi....you are talking to conservatives. These people are pro U.S. in terms of foreign policy.

They want the US to stay in IRaq until either the job gets done, or the people are safe or whatever. These people are not for immediate withdrawal.

They support the Israeli invasion of Lebanon or at least Israel in principle and it's foregin policy.

They are supportive of Democrats who are actually Republicans.

They had Harold Ford on this website as someone who should recieve donations.

Harold Ford is pro prayer in school
Anti Abortion
Voted for the Iraq War
Supported Bush's Social Security ideas

The list goes on.

This isn't a liberal website. None of them are.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:23:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

In (9.00 / 1)

just the last day you have labeled this community as maudlin, vain, self-absorbed and now conservative.

Which begs the obvious question:

Why are you here again?

Have you been banned everywhere else and this is all you've got left to work with?

Seriously, what's in it for you?


(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:29:51 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Besides your fondness for me that is n/t (7.00 / 1)

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:37:58 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Don't Ask (0.00 / 0)

You should not ask that question.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:43:40 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

And this response (0.00 / 0)

begs the next question:

Why not?

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:53:28 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Answers (1.00 / 1)

Because it's provactive. It's meant to isolate. It's a manipulative question. It's hostile and intended to be hostile for the purpose of making someone feel unwanted. It dentifies  that person as "unclean" to others. As someone who is different from the rest.

So don't ask.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 09:13:25 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Provocative (0.00 / 0)

is your style, not mine.

No, it's an honest question, though I will agree that it is hostile. 

An honest hostile question.

When it comes to you and your writings I find that I often shuttle between hostility and bemusement.

You don't seem to like this place or the people here very much, based on your comments, but seem to prefer instead lobbing "bombs" into thread after thread.

So honestly man, what is this doing for you?

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 09:51:44 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hot Pursuit (0.00 / 0)

One thing I don't do is repond to provocation. So I'm not looking for trouble. I am not interested in personalizing discussions, and talking about ME ME ME or I this and I that.

I am not interested in ME. I am interested in Politics. I may be writing provactive things about politics, but I don't think you will find too much personalizing and name calling of other posters.

"So honestly man, what is this doing for you?"

It's interesting to me to some extent for different reasons.

Why don't you just ignore me? You are pusuing me. That's what you do when you feel hostile toward someone. You pursue them. There is a liittle clique of people that buzz around other people whose views are divergent (usually to the left) from them and they peck away at them hoping for some kind of outrageous response to get them to look bad and fall away.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 13:36:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well (0.00 / 0)

Stu, at this point it's still a pretty small site so ignoring you or any other provacateur is a bit difficult. 

At a place like Dkos I probably wouldn't even notice you in the din.

Maybe you should spend some time on the introspection thing, because when one is provocative in style and then crys foul when he actually provokes, well, that doesn't speak very well for one's awareness.

Which is why I question your motives, because from where I'm sitting they seem to be devoid of logic.

 

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 16:29:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's exacly right, Jake!! (11.00 / 1)

Most people are psychologically NOT that strong, and their emotions are easily tapped into by demagogues, be the on the right OR the left, imo.  It takes a good deal of willpower and courage, usually, to distance oneself from that kind of emotional manipulation and think to oneself  "Wait a minute"  Not sure how true this is.  I'll have to liisten to other viewpoints before I form an opinion.": 

I'll let you all in on a secret:  The reason I've been able to do that so easily is because of the way I was hard-wired together. most probably before birth.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

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by: independentminded @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 01:00:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Swiimming (0.00 / 0)

We are swiiming in a sea of lies and disinformation. It's all we know. It's called human history. It's not something you escape. It's something you swim in.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 09:16:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Jake (7.50 / 2)

As Weeping's diary noted, it is important to apply critical examination to our own beliefs, no matter how funadamental they may be, if we are who we say we are.

  I agree completely with this quote and it's sincerely what I  try to do in forming my opinions. I read more and seek out more sources of information that I don't agree with, or that doesn't agree with what I already believe, to challenge mthe foundation of my beliefs. Some things fit, some don't but nowhere have I found a source that is thorough and fair to all sides.

  I'm trying to take religion out of this because the real conspirators aren't basing their plans primarily on religion, if any at all. They know it will cause enough chaos to give them cover. This isn't about religion....it's about WTO...construction companies....defense appropriations...stock options...trade imbalance, sanctions, deception, covert campaign financing, crooked lobbyists...wait, some are honest...

  The reason I posted the smart-ass one liner to Paul is to emphasize the facetious claim that the left hates Israel or Jews because we distrust some people who are acting maliciously in her name. It's a fair comparison...snarkily fair....He has made statements of hateful accusatiopns without evidence against our leaders and opur government and some religious groups who wield political power. Therefore, by the appearance of his reasoning on other issues, he must America for his criticism. I think he doesn't but that's how it feels to support Israel, doubt the profitmongers/powermongers and continually be accused of hating her. We don't.

  No sweat on the quote. I don't let this shit get to me.

  You want someone to check out? Take a look at William Lash III and his wife Sharon and my heart breaks for their son. Sure are a ton of questions there.

---

by: rumi @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 22:47:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Cool Beans (8.00 / 2)

The reason religion is important to me in this setting is the fact that there are all types of religions intermeshed here, not just Islam, Judaism and Christianity.

There are also the gods of money, power, political ideology, nationalism, etc...at play.

And what keeps this thing going is the fact that no one appears to be able to be dispassionate about the subject because of what they believe in.

Never has so much faith inspired so little.

Anyway, thanks for the convo.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 22:56:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's up to each of us (10.00 / 1)

  To make the extra effort to remove religion from the discussion, whenever possible. I think Madsen might be proven true on those 04 election claims. There's an investigation for violation of foreign investment rules like the ones that hit the Dubai deal...CFIUS or whatever it is. Turns out that Sequoia/Smartmatic are owned by Venezuelan /Dutch businesspeople via Tampa with money stored in offshore (Island) accounts. An investigation supposedly has begun. Lou Dobbs has been harping on this. It goes back to Chicago and other vote manipulation incidents.

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by: rumi @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 23:35:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Worth noting (8.00 / 2)

That regardless of what we think of Madsen's credibility - and I believe that every report should be assessed on its merits - we do know that, as the San Francisco Chronicle reported last week, Israel had this thing planned at least a year ago.

Doesn't prove or disprove Madsen, but I felt it was worth mentioning.

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by: eugene @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:29:48 PM CDT

Contingency planning (7.00 / 1)

only if you make more out of contingency planning than what it is.  Contingency planning isn't policy. Just because the US has a war plan on file for a European conflict with the Soviet Union doesn't mean the US intends to go to war with the Soviets, in Europe or anywhere else. 

Some people have such a hard-on against Israel that they will believe anything.  So they go out and find useful idiots like Chomsky and Finkelstein, because that's much better than an ordinary idiot like Juan Cole.  Even more pathetic is how they look for the Israel-hater's Holy Grail, a prominent Jewish politician who will hate Israel so much that when he becomes president, he will sever all relations between the US and Israel.  I had a good chuckle last week when they all came to the awful realization that Russ Feingold was not their Holy Grail, even though he never gave the slightest indication he would be.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 22:04:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Russ Feingold: Last of the MOhicans. An Honest Senator? (0.00 / 1)

Russ Feingold is the poorest (least rich) Senator in Congress and he voted against the Iraq war and against the flow.

Why wouldn't, why shouldn't he be supported by this website as a liberal..

The answer is....this isn't a liberal website. It's a conservative one.

Russ Feingold has almost no play on Daily Gloss. It's Mark Warner the Vegas Party thrower and jagoff supreme he wants apparently to attack Iran, while pulling out of IRaq.

The Democrats don't support Maliki in Iraq because he criticizes the US policy in Israel. They call him a supporter of terrorism. So they are to the RIGHT of Bush.

There is no hope here.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:30:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

And he supports Israel (0.00 / 0)

and voted yes for Justice Roberts.

So I guess he's just another conservative like the rest of us.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:32:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

What? (0.00 / 0)

Supports ISrael HOW?

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:41:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Go to his site (9.00 / 1)

This is the quote posted there:

July 14, 2006

“I stand firmly with the people of Israel and their government as they defend themselves against these outrageous attacks. The kidnapping of Israeli soldiers and missile attacks against Israeli citizens are unacceptable and cannot be tolerated. The first steps toward establishing peace must begin with the unconditional and immediate return of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers. Lebanon, Syria, Iran and countries throughout the region must also condemn the actions of Hezbollah, Hamas, and other groups committed to blocking the peace process and must take strong actions to return stability to the region immediately.”

I don't do links due to my technical inadequacies and lack of patience but if you go to google and type "feingold", "support of Israel" it will take you to discussions on all sorts of blogs.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:51:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why do I feel (0.00 / 0)

like I just told a kid there's no Santa Claus?

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 06:20:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

thanks (0.00 / 0)

Thank you for the information.

I hope that he modifies or expands on his views.

It doesn't do much good to be against the war in Iraq and then be for some other war whether it be in Israel or elsewhere.

Things need to be toned down all over in world affairs.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 09:01:14 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

WTF are you talking about? (6.00 / 1)

Feingold gets as much, if not more coverage, on dk than anyone. He's had the highest percentage of votes in the last 3 straw polls. Warner is a distant 4th. My recollection is the results were the same here.


to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

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by: Kane in CA @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:44:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

GLOSS (0.00 / 0)

The polls....he gets high votes but what about commentary and diaries. I don't visit Kos that often anymore. What about that?

i say this because the leadership at Kos would never support him. I think that's clear...or has been up until his recent statements about Isreal.

I just hang on to him because I know he voted against the war. I need to know more about him.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 09:05:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

FWIW (6.00 / 1)

  I've been a supporter of Sen Feingold for a while now and even though I disagree with his statements on the CURRENT military actions of Israel, I still think Russ is one of the few worth supporting.

  This is supposed to be some sort of democracy we're trying to establish/repair. Part of that is knowing I'll never be 100% in agreement with anyone and also have to accept a fairly achieved majority decision I might not agree with. Reason, balance and compromise are essential.

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by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 09:12:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

What about the commentary and diaries? (0.00 / 0)

If there has been a single one in support of Warner, I missed it. And I follow the front page and recommended diaries pretty closely. The closest Markos has come is to say he appreciates Warner's acknowledgment of the netroots as a player in the world of politics. End of story. No endorsement. No support.

There have been many diaries in support of Feingold, and plenty of kudos on the fp. Since Feingold isn't involved in a campaign currently, there have been no fp endorsements. But neither have there been of any other candidate not currently involved in a campaign.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

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by: Kane in CA @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 10:19:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Whether or not there were signed and witnessed... (10.00 / 1)

...and certified signatures by all participants in all the meetings is one thing.

But the concept could be plausible from one standpoint - politics.

Can anyone think of a more cynical or more effective wedge issue?

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by: grunmann @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 21:45:52 PM CDT

Wedge issue (4.50 / 2)

Sure it's a wedge issue, and here's how it works:

Jewish voters are solidly aligned with the Democrats. In the last couple of presidential elections, the Jewish vote went 80% for the Democratic candidate.  Republicans would love to court Jews away from the Democrats, because of course we Jews have all the big money.  So the Republicans solidly support Israel, but that doesn't work because so do the Dems.  And Jewish values tend to veer left, not right.  The Republicans need a wedge, and their best hope these days is to somehow make Jewish voters think that the Left is hostile to Israel.  So, when people here and at Kos seize on crapola like Madsen, they are providing the Republicans with exactly the wedge they seek. 

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 22:07:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why do you hate America, Paul? (7.50 / 2)

---

by: rumi @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 22:26:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Same reason as all of us (7.50 / 2)

lousy cable tv service

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

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by: Paul in San Francisco @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 22:35:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

:-)...and outrageous rates n/t (10.00 / 1)

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by: rumi @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 22:49:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh come on Paul, (0.00 / 0)

I think people here have brains enough to take everything they read, hear, see with a gran of salt and are capable of figuring out what is implausable, what is improbable and what is somewhat possible.

Give people credit for being able to use their brains. . .we are not the Sheeple here.

You don't have to tell me what to think, I am still able to think on my own.

Still, if you have some concrete, credible evidence of Wayne Madsen's total lack of credibility. . .please do us all a favor and give us the sources so we can research them ourselves.

Then we will be further informed and will make up our own minds what is believable to each of us.

Thanks

Read more Shirl at Village Blue and Matters of Spirit

---

by: shirlstars @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 22:38:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well, Paul (8.00 / 2)

As the othershavetold you, you're acting like a real jerk to be insising on thingslikereliablesources, actualfacts, rational argument. get with the program.  It's nit thetruth ofanything that counts, but its firt into our pre-conceived prejudice and our own willingness to believe it.

Clearfly it is more important that we believe and disseminate stories and theories that reinforce our own beliefs, and that can be used for political gain.  And don't thin anybody is buying your feeble attempt to bypass the necessary truth of this story by making the wild clsaim that it wsill ultimately helpthe Repunblicans.  Just the kind of rational thinking that a Conservatgiveis apt to do.

Let it put it for you simply, Paul:

Some former Israeli politicians were in Colrado and mdet with some members of the Bush administration, some of whom are known neocons.  Not long after, for no apparent reason, theIsdraelies started bombing Lebanon.

Coincidence?  I think not.

If you aren't convinced by that, Paul, I'd say that there is a good chancer that you are on
Bill Kristol'sa rolodex.


"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 22:50:39 PM CDT

i think (7.50 / 2)

an illuminati or skull & bones ct circle jerk woulda been a whole lot more fun.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

---

by: Kane in CA @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 23:36:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I think (0.00 / 0)

the most damnable thing about "conspiracy theories" is the fact that they are admittedly a lot of fun.

It's like a treasure hunt in reverse where you start with the X that marks the spot and go backwards.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 23:43:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Conspriacies are the rule, not the exception. We live in burgeoning Police State (9.00 / 1)

History is nothing more than a list of conspiracies. The idea that conspiracies and a product of the imagination is part of the Republican conspiracy to make it seem they are not conspiring.

Shakespeare
The Bible

These are books whose stories are all about conspiracies and the misunderstanding that occur as a result of them

Stu Piddy....a free range human

---

by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:35:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Police State (0.00 / 0)

You sound like me 40 years ago.

Several people i knew actually went to live in police states.  Most of them went to cuba.  I ran into a couple after they came back, about ten years later.

They had decided that America wasn't a police state.

You might consider the same experiment.

But IF you make the assumption that it is, or that ity is a "burgeoning police state" then you will find the evidence.  Once again, this is the fallacy of looking for eveidence with your hypothesis in hand.  Many people assume that this is the free-est place in the world, and see all arondcx them evidence for that proposition.  you are both filteringt out the same things.

The idea that conspiracies and a product of the imagination is part of the Republican conspiracy to make it seem they are not conspiring.

Yep, the first sign that there is a conspiracy going on is when it is denied!  i mean, if YOU were part of a conspiracy, isn't that what you would do?  So, the fact that Republicans deny that they are a part of a conspiracy to, say, impverish the poor and enrich the rich is PROOF psoitive that there is such a conspiracy.

An since you have given me this full proof test, tomorrow i am phoning my Democratic congresswoman to ask her if she is a part of a conspiracy to fix the vote in her district in the next election.  if she denies it, we'll know for sure that there is a conspiracy afoot!

Seriously, Stu (and rumi), there must be a 12 step program, for your addiction.  As (sorry, i forget) said, conspiracy theories are fun, and they are addicting.  They can come to replace reality.  Just look at the JFK assassination, where Stone made a movie that altered the facts to fit the conspiracy 5theory and the giu;llible ate it up, treating it like some fine piece of investigation, instead of what it was, fiction.

Don't either of you deny that you have an addiction which is disturbing your ability to fathom reality because, as we all know, the first sign of addiction is denial.

Now i got to go see if Art Bell is broadcasting tonight.  W6OBB, baby, on  the 80 meter band, frequency 3840 kHz.  but youse guys knew that, of course.  If he isn't on, well, i've got p[lenty of old tapes.  Some are real favourites.


"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 02:58:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Doesn't Kristol have a Blackberry? :-) (0.00 / 0)

  If he doesn't, he should.

So, do you think Hariri was whacked by forces other than the claims that it was Syria?

---

by: rumi @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 23:42:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Kristol's blackberry (9.00 / 1)

so Kristol is the douchebag that's been text-messaging my cellphone every friggin' day??? Well, he can lick my clit, the fucksnot.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 23:57:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Bill's an amiable guy (0.00 / 0)

so he may take you up on your offers, if he can find a way!

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 02:39:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well, as a matter of fact... (11.00 / 2)

  Conspiracy theories maje sense where the popular belief - official story don't make sense or fit the elements involved. Here in the past 6 years especially, that practice of creating reality for others to study judiciously has really taken hold. The 'official' or commonly accepted explanation looks more like a crazy conspiracy theory than what we come up with.

  When the truth is so outrageous that few would easily accept it, it becomes nothing more than worthless trivia...unless we give it value.

  Let me ask any reader. If you choose to ignore or discredit what could be the truth and the conspiratorial forces are allowed to continue to new killings, will you feel any responsibility for allowing them to advance unchecked?

---

by: rumi @ Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 23:56:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You got it (0.00 / 0)

I still feel the familial guilt because my great-great-great grandfather, Slightlywhackedscientist, helped convince people that it really was John Wilkes Booth who died in that barn.  As you know, Booth went on to a career as a nightrider and lyncher of Black people during the reconstruction.

But you'll have to forgive me on the moon landing.  A cousin helkped build the set, and was told that if he ever leaked any information about it, the CIA would take him out.

So, "officially," i believe the moon landings actually happened.  (nudge, nudge, wink wink, word to the wise!)

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 02:33:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

And again (11.00 / 1)

rumi, i express my very real concern for you in my answer to Stu.

here, i want to say a few serius things.

We exist in a world where few things are perfectly known.  In fact, we will never explain most historical things entirely.

How do we proceed?  I suggest that we look at all the evidence and come to what looks like the vbest conclusion.  no matter what, someone will have a conspiracy theory.  remember, FDR knew about the Pearl harbor attacks in advance and could have stopped themm, but thought that they were just what he needed to propel America into the war he had been aching for for several years.

Conspiracy theories ARe fun, and they should remain that.  it is when they become more than fuir that intervention is needed.  conspiracy theories can have very real consequences.

Just five years ago, it was thought that polio was close to eracdication.  since then, it has flared in several places around the world.  most of it can be traced to Africa.  there, a conspiracy theory made the rounds that said that the vaccine was parto of a conspiracy by the US to eliminate Black people from the world.  in this specific case, the theory held that Black males so vaccinated would become sterile.  The areas where this theory was most believed became the kindling fopr an exploision of po9lio cases.

Do you think the holders and disseminators of this theory should feel some guilt?  What i can tell you is that those who held that theory five years ago still do.

Similarly, there has been a long standing conspiracy theory concening HIV and AIDS, which says that AIDS has nothing to do with AIODS, and is just a fake to pin it on Africans and keep Africans from getting the right tratment.  This conspiracy theory is partially responsible for South Africa stopping the uwse of medicines for AIDS which acted against the HIV virus.  The disease proliferated, and many people advanced to full blown AIDS and died, until the government saw the light and again began using the anti-retrovirals.  Do you think that anyone involved with this conspiracy theory deserves to feel any guilt?

Here in our own country,k various polls have shown that over 50% of Blacks believe that HIV was invented by CIA scientists in the seventies for the purpose of wiping out Black people.  I presume, with your usual credulity, you believe this also.

Let me recommend a cure.  Unlike most people involved with this particular addiction, I DO believe that one can recover and become a social user of conspiracy theories again.  Here is my formula, short version:

1)  Make it a rule that you treat ALL explanations the same, and that you state as believable any theory that meets some pre-designated conditions.  Remember, the psychological fact is that "we see it when we believe it," so never look for facts to back up a theory you already believe.  The easies5t way to follow this rule is to be sceptical about every theory and to the same degree, no matter who said it wor where it comes from.

2)  Don't fall into the "conspiracy" trap, whereby you demand absolute certainty from an official explanation before you believe it, but only require plausibility to believe a conspiracy theory.  if you do this, your standard of truth will come to depend on your prejudices and nothing more.  Demand the evidence in any case.  That Clinton dropped a couple of missiles here and there just to distract the country from his Monica woes is plausible, but i never saw any evidence for it.  But you know that there are people out there who still believe it.  See if you can guess what thir political leanings are?  Rule:  if you tell me a few conspioracies that you believe, or even think likely, and i can guess your political leanings from that list, then you are not credible, probably an addict.

(Attemted save:  but only Republicans are conspirators.  This is nonsense.  Didn't Bill clinton drop missiles just to divert out =r attention?)

3)  To me, the berst state is when you accept the most evidential explanation, but, if it doesn't explain everything, you keep your mind open. 
All it takes is the ability to look at a conspiracy theory and say, "Could be, but i don't have any evidence for it."  YOU may choose to believe such a theroy, but you shouldn't expoect others to without evidence.

4)  Evidence should not be of the "Coincidence?  I think not!" variety.  If you have this kind of evidence, have fun, as i did last night with the Skull&Bones stuff.  I mean, it could be true, couldn't it?

5)  Avoid the temptation to require that others totally disprove your conspiracy theory.  That should be YOUR job BEFORE you prevent it.  Just b=present the evidence you have.

6)  It is a sure sign that you are losing your objectivity if you find that you fund you conspiracy theories with some vast major premise like "The Trilateral Commission is trying to control the world through one world government."  this premiss itself is a conspiracy theory, and you would have to provide the evidence.

Similar misused major premises:  "The Democrats are trying to institute socialism."  "The Democrats are trying to break down the moral fabric of america as part of a plan to give away our sovereignty to the UN."  "The Repulicans are trying to build a police state which benefits the rich at the expense of the poor."

7)  Be aware when your favourite theory is beginning to require "epicyucles" to reamin plausible.  for instance, i ahd a co-worker who believed the CIA-AIDS theory.  Since i know a little bit about viruses, and i was in school with leaqding researchers at the time the creation of the virus was supposed to take place, i tried to explain to this man that the knowledge was not available at the time to make a virus like a retrovirus, nor any other, for that matter.  he responded that the CIA must have had secret scientific knowledge not available to the academic community.  If you find yourself trying to save your theory, it is best considered dead.

Now, take the first step.  Admit to yourself that yuou have become powerless in the face of conspiracy theories, that your life has become unmangebnle.  go from there.

You have my hopes that you will have the best of luck and success in your recovery.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:37:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks so much (9.00 / 1)

for your calm reasoning and suggestions.

But here's a problem I have, and it's a long standing one.  I was in the Army stationed at White Sands Missile Range in 1965-1967.  It was then, and probably still is, a Top Secret base in so far as what goes on there and what is known there and what is tested there.

I saw lots of things that are still pretty hard to believe even 40 years later.  I saw lots of things I wasn't supposed to see.  Not because I wanted to see them, but they were so freakin unbelievable others couldn't quell their excitement and/or their need to show me this stuff.  My job didn't require me to know about these things, but people being people were always showing them to me anyway.  So much for eyes only and other secret catagories being seriously kept such.

Here's the deal.  Twenty years after I was long gone from White Sands, there would be a big splash in the news media about the US's latest and greatest, planes, missiles, weaponry, etc.  The same stuff I knew about 20 years earlier when I was in the military.  Some of the things came out 30 years later and some of them have never come out.  Maybe they didn't work out like they thought, or maybe they just don't want us to know about them yet.  So when our government says, "Look here!  Latest and Greatest Killing STUFF and Spying Stuff"  I just laugh and wonder what it is we really have and are using 40 years later.

So you see, I blame them for making me a Tinfoil Hat Woman, and all the lies we are fed from our government daily (all parties, all Presidents, just not all lies as deadly destructive as Bushy's), just have confirmed my position of trusting none of it and considering all of it possible.

So instead of looking to confirm my possible scenarios, I do consider if there is something to disprove them, but geeze, WHO do you trust.  Too many lies from too many sources.  So I just hold the possibilites.  Cuz I don't want WWII to happen beacause I didn't believe it was possible for ovens and exterminations.

But keep pressing for your version of Logic and I'm glad you find sources you can trust.  I just can't any more.

Read more Shirl at Village Blue and Matters of Spirit

---

by: shirlstars @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:56:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Shirlstars (0.00 / 0)

I haven't really discussed anything with you before, and it pains me to think that you will be as bad a reader as people tend to be here.  You will kindly now show me where i said that I "find sources [I] trust."  (It's in your next to last sentence.)  What I said, if you had read it, was to be sceptical of everything.

keep pressing for your version of Logic

You know, I don't have a version of logic.  There is logic.

So much for eyes only and other secret catagories being seriously kept such.

Well, that allays some of my fears.  You seem to be  saying that we need not worry about our government keeping secrets.

You know, we're actually mixing apples and oranges here.  My note to rumi concerned conspiracy theories.  You are talking about secrets.  They are not necessarily the same thing.

I remember a few years back when Jane's published an article describing a new plane that the US was going to build, complete with the engineering specifications.  The said that it was going to include something they called "stealth" technology.  Of course, the Americans denied that anything like that was even contemplated.  But, of course, the stealth bomber debut a few years later, and it was almost exactly what was described by Jane's.

In fact, if you are rich enough, and can afford to subscribe to the Jane's family of journals, you'd know a lot of things that the government would rather keep secret.  Jane's is very, very good.  Even without a subscription, you can have some fun on their website.

During the time we now know that this bomber was being tested, there were certain ufos observed.  many people now think that this was involved with this testing.  Others believe what they always did, that the ufos were visits from the aliens that have been visiting our government officials since 1947, the reamins of one being houseed in Area 51.  So far as i know, the government has not confirmed that these ufos were airplane tests.  But for many reasons, it sounds plausible.  Do you think it was our friends, the aliens?

btw, i can relate to being lied to and not trusting who lied to me.  As I've mentioned before, when i figured out the Santa claus thing, i never, NEVER trusted anything my parents said again.

Interestingly, my parents seemed to think they had good reason to lie to me about that, although i didn't and still don't buy it.

Likewise, the military thinks it has good reason to keep weapons development secret.  Interestingly, militaries around the earth feel the same way.  What do you think?

WHO do you trust.

Rules of thumb:

1)  Politicians are like car salesmen.  You should expect them to sell their product, their policy.  You don't expect the Chevy salesman to tell you that you'd be better off in a Ford.  When you ask him why you should buy his car, you should expect him to tell what will convince you to buy the car.  Treat politicians the same way, and stop being angry at them for being politicians.  It's a waste of time and bad for the heart.  Your heart.

2)  Trust but verify is the rule.  Trust is never absolute, but tend to trust those who provide evidence and argument (according to logic) on a regular basis.

3)  Tend to distrust people who share your point of view.

4)  Don't trust peoplelike the writer you cited, who simply made assertions without evidence. 
Skip the Greg Palasts of the world.

5)  Never accept what "pundits" tell you some politician said, or what it means.  Get the exact quote from the politician.  Remember, it wasn't Howard Dean's scream that flipped him out of the Democratic presidency, it was wall-to-wall punditry talking about his "crazy scream."  I saw it at the time, and went to bed thinking that he had real potential, because he had taken a demoralized room of supporters, connected with them, raised their spirits, and gave a rousing presentation of the road ahead.  but the next morning i woke up to find that he was a madman.  i thought he killed someone, maybe......

It is pundits who have had the antiBush opposition waste their time on such untruths as "The Bushies said the threat was imminent," or "They said that Iraq was behind 911."

not all lies as deadly destructive as Bushy's

Just for the fun of it, and for practice, tell me one destructive lie that bush told.  Just quote the statement, and then show:

1)  The statement was wrong;

2)  Bush knew it was wrong when he made it.

I'm not asking that you read his mind.  for instance, if Bush said, to take a random example, that Iraq was SEEKING uranium in Africa, and you found out that the CIA had told him that day or close to it that Iraq was NOT SEEKING uranium in africa, then that would be enough.  (In this particular case, from the 2003 SOTU address, it turns out that the CIA vetted the statement before the speech was given, so it would have been a lie if Bush had said that Iraq was NOT seeking uranium in Africa.)

And since you used the term 'destructive,' i don't need to say that this is about serious matters, not some case where he said, say, that he would be hasving Thanksgiving dinner with his family at the ranch, and turns up the next day in Baghdad.

Anyway, while you were stealing secrets from the army, i was being followed around by the FBI.  I know a little bit about the government and its ways.  That's why, in part, i think we should have less of it!

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 02:57:45 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Do Dems get pissed about... (0.00 / 0)

the dealings of money in the nineties from Roger Tamraz? He had a killer quote I found from a Senate Hearing on campaign contribution violation

  Although Tamraz's political contributions to the Democratic
Party afforded him limited access to the President and Vice
President, U.S. policy toward the Caspian Sea pipeline project
was not affected by either Tamraz's contributions or his
access. Indeed, when Tamraz was asked whether he regretted
making his contributions to the Democratic Party, which
totalled less than $300,000, Tamraz responded that ``I think
next time, I'll give 600,000.'' 128
INVESTIGATION OF ILLEGAL OR IMPROPER ACTIVITIES
IN CONNECTION WITH 1996 FEDERAL ELECTION CAMPAIGNS

  He's right. You can't buy anybody worth having for $300,000 chump change...too funny.
  This guy is still a fugitive from crimes in Lebanon, isn't he?

---

by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 00:12:05 AM CDT

Thanks everyone! (10.00 / 1)

I haven't had this much fun in ages!  And I haven't posted anything controversial since. . .since. . .well years ago on DK in one of Caliberals mega abortion diaries. . . .that was in my virgin days and I was so proud of the "Fuck You" one young feller bestowed on me.  Turns out he was only kidding cuz I thanked him profusely for the posibility, and God knows it had been a long time. . .(ahh, memories). . .but he just didn't want to follow through. 

Really, thanks everyone for your input and ideas and the many smiles it brought me.

Stardust on your pillows
and Hugs all,
Shirl

Read more Shirl at Village Blue and Matters of Spirit

---

by: shirlstars @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 02:29:11 AM CDT

Wayne Madsen- Whack Job (6.00 / 1)

Just ONE of his articles:

According to classified documents from French intelligence, Al Qaeda and Bin Laden had still been under the operational control of U.S. and British “security services” until 1995, fully two years after the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.

At the same time, the DEA had discovered a nationwide ring of Israeli “art students,” many of whom had past connections to Israeli intelligence and military demolition units, were operating in and around New York and New Jersey. What the DEA did not realize was that the art students were also shadowing the very same Arab cells that would later carry out the 911 attacks.

The DEA originally became interested in the Israelis because they suspected they were involved in an Israeli Mafia Ecstasy smuggling ring. However, it soon became clear that the DEA had stumbled across something much larger – not only were DEA offices and homes of DEA agents around the country being cased by the Israelis, but they were also targeting Federal judges, U.S. Marshals, Environmental Protection Agency law enforcement officers, and FBI agents for surveillance.

 

Dominik Suter was the head of Urban Moving Systems of nearby Weehawken, the base of operations for two white vans with the same rear license plate that were seen parked at the Doric Apartments (near Patterson Plank Road) and at Liberty State Park at the same time the first plane struck the North Tower of the World Trade Center. The occupants of both vans, all Israelis, were seen celebrating the attack while dressed in Arab garb. Five Israelis in one of the vans were later arrested by the local police and FBI near Giant Stadium in East Rutherford, New Jersey in the late afternoon of September 11.

 

Dick was very suspicious when Israeli movers quickly moved Zim American Israeli Shipping Company out of its 10,000 square feet of office space on the 17th Floor of the North Tower of the World Trade Center. The partially Israeli state-owned firm forfeited a $50,000 security deposit when it terminated its lease and vacated the building one week prior to 911. According to a non official cover (NOC) CIA source who worked with Dick, Israeli movers moved explosives into the 17th Floor office space after Zim moved out. 

 

During a joint CIA-FBI operation against lead hijacker Mohammed Atta in Fort Lee, New Jersey in 2000, the CIA and FBI team leaders complained to their superiors that their operation was being photographed by Israeli agents, thus compromising the operation. The CIA source affirmed that the Israelis in New Jersey were providing cover for the future hijacker teams. 

 

On October 12, 2000, the USS Cole, docked in Aden harbor after the U.S. Navy deemed the port safe and certified it as a Defense Fuel Support Point, was reportedly blown up by two men who approached the warship in a small boat.  ... O’Neill and his FBI soon arrived in Yemen to investigate the crime.  ...

 

The former CIA agent who worked with the FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force in New York and New Jersey stated that the USS Cole was hit by a specially-configured Popeye cruise missile launched from an Israeli Dolphin-class submarine. Israeli tests of the missile in May 2000 in the waters off Sri Lanka demonstrated it could hit a target 930 miles away. The ex-CIA agent also stated that Ambassador Bodine threw John O’Neill and his team out of Yemen lest their investigation began uncovering evidence that the Cole was not blown up by an explosive-laden boat but by an Israeli cruise missile.

 

According to Madsen, there is no al-Qaeda. It is really an operation of the "Russian-Israel Mafia."  The USS Cole was hit by an Israeli submarine launched cruise missile, and the Israelis were behind 9/11. 

Sorry guys, but going to the most racist paranoid crazy person to support your argument, just because he's likely to be mumbling and sputtering something you want to hear, does not place YOU in a great light.

---

by: dhonig @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 06:01:30 AM CDT

Ok, Madsen aside... (0.00 / 0)

  How exactly do you explain the Israeli art student questions and curiosities? Do you want me to believe that Israel is never involved in matters of espionage?

  By the way, I don't think Israel is responsible for 9/11.

---

by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 08:09:28 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't, because (0.00 / 0)

such a tangential movement would be a thread hijack.  The issue is Madsen's report, and his reliability.  It is crap, and he is crap.  I have no interest in meandering down every 'Israel is infiltrating/controlling the United States' fantasy.

By the way, some of those art students showed up at my door in Carmel, Indiana, once and my wife bought a couple of pretty decent paintings.  And no, I don't think Carmel, Indiana, is a hotbed of Mossad activity. 

---

by: dhonig @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 08:50:53 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You blanketly denounce Madsen (9.00 / 1)

  ,..and then, conveniently refuse to discuss the evidence of his claims. You cited the Israeli art student claim, not me. Now that you brought it up, it's a good way to support one of Madsen's arguments. I don't believe Israel was responsible for 9/11.

  But, hey, there have been claims that the US agencies blocked Mossad (art students trailing al queda suspects) from preventing 9/11.

---

by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 08:57:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

No, MADSEN brought up the art students (0.00 / 0)

and sure "there have been claims."  Do you really think the same schmucks walking from door to door in Carmel-frickin'-Indiana selling mediocre oils had the power to stop 9/11?  You say I "conveniently refuse to discuss the evidence of his claims."  THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF HIS CLAIMS!

Sorry, but saying something doesn't make it so. And when you are repeatedly on record with the batshit-craziest crap, all aimed in one direction, and all so absurd as to be either intentional lies or schizophrenic delusions, no, I do not need to parse his every word to identify the occasion well-placed adverb.

that this whack-job has gotten even this much attention on this board indicates little more than a frantic and mindless mob reaction to what is happening in the Middle East, and that is really sad.

---

by: dhonig @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 09:31:19 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

btw (0.00 / 0)

  You folks didn't let those 'nice art students'use your telephone, did you?

...and no, I don't believe the claim that they were trying to prevent 9/11. I do however look with interest to the moving company/furniture company that's been contracted with govt agencies to provide furniture. Some claims drift around that Clinton was surveilled by technology embedded in such office furniture.

---

by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 11:11:14 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Office furniture embeds? (0.00 / 0)

I think the only thing embedded in Clinton's office furniture was Monica Lewinsky, on her knees under his desk.

And those Israeli art students visited my old office in SF, too, several years ago. Our office was a do-nothing front for a Singaporean coffe & tea manufacturer that had no clue what it was doing in the US, so we were hardly a hotbed of secrets either.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 11:26:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Paul, HUSH! (8.00 / 2)

we both know the "art students" were checking in with us to see if they received any orders on the
JDL E-Mail Tree.  They were also coming by to get their stipends paid out of our Jewish billions.  How else are they supposed to support their parents' luxurious lives sitting around swimming pools in their settlement, comfortable in the knowledge that their superspy children are walking the suburbs of Indiana furthering the Zionist conspiracy to keep control of the world?

But seriously, SHHHHHHHHHH!  I think they're on to us.

---

by: dhonig @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:28:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

that's a good one, thanks n/t (0.00 / 0)

  Snark, satire and sarcasm work nicely.

---

by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:42:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Zionsville (0.00 / 0)

I've told you I used to go to a Jewish summer camp outside of Indy, right?  In the aptly-named Zionsville!

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 14:48:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I long for Hooterville (0.00 / 0)

  Growing up in a rural area had some unique perks.

  We have several old country churches that have Zion in the name.

---

by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 14:58:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

GUCI (0.00 / 0)

guci goo!

---

by: dhonig @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 15:00:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Diva fashion camp? :-) (0.00 / 0)

jeese, I hope nobody is insulted by that, seriously, I deliberated on the wiseness of posting it and decided too anyway.

The real GUCI looks interesting.

---

by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 15:19:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not at all (0.00 / 0)

It started out, when I was there, as Union Camp Institute, which we called UCI (you see eye).  A few years after I started going there, a benefactor of the camp had his name, Goldman, added to make it Goldman Union Camp Institute, or GUCI, which we immediately started pronouncing as if it were Gucci. 

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 16:56:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

yeah, I was playing on the word (0.00 / 0)

  I think one of the foundations/schools or whatever the proper name is came up in a search on the 'Billionaires' after mention was made. Many Jewish businessfolks return part of their good fortune back to their communities. I think the goal of that school (one of the goals, anyway) was to reach out to kids/young adults who have strayed away from the faith/religion for whatever reason. It seemed like a bridge between past and the future for the next generation to appreciate, live and carry on.

 

---

by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 17:07:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

fact or fiction? (0.00 / 0)

by: dhonig  @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 07:01:30 AM EDT

  Wayne Madsen- Whack Job  (0.00 / 0)
Just ONE of his articles:
...At the same time, the DEA had discovered a nationwide ring of Israeli “art students,” many of whom had past connections to Israeli intelligence and military demolition units, were operating in and around New York and New Jersey. What the DEA did not realize was that the art students were also shadowing the very same Arab cells that would later carry out the 911 attacks.

The following exerpt and link are from  July 2002 at or near the beginning of that story breaking.

US arrests 200 young Israelis in spying investigation

UP to 200 young Israelis, some of them former members of military intelligence units, have been arrested in America in the past year, a leaked government report disclosed yesterday.

Some had used cover stories to gain access to sensitive government buildings and the homes of American officials. The report said the actions of some of the Israelis, most of whom had outstayed tourist visas, "may well be an organised intelligence-gathering activity".

None of the Israelis, about 140 of whom are believed to have been detained before the September 11 attacks, has been charged and most have been deported, according to the US government.
...more
A spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry, Yaffa Ben-Ari, said it was "nonsense" that they had been spying on America. There has been no formal American allegation of spying by Israel although Tel Aviv has launched espionage operations against its principal ally in the past.

The leaked report was compiled by the Drug Enforcement Administration after some of its offices were allegedly targeted by Israelis posing as art students. "That these people are now travelling in the US selling art seems not to fit their background," the DEA report said.

On Oct 31, the FBI and Immigration and Naturalisation Service officers arrested about 60 young Israelis in San Diego, Kansas City, Cleveland, Houston and St Louis. All had been selling toys at kiosks in shopping centres across America and the FBI is reported to have been investigating this as a front operation for espionage activities.
...full article at link above

Actually, it was FoxNews' Carl Cameron who broke the story with a 4 part series.

Monday, December 17, 2001

  Of course it would be discounted by both govts for a number of reasons. Does that mean it didn't happen?

The Spies Who Came in From the Art Sale
A major international espionage saga is unfolding across the United States, with some of its roots right here in the Tampa Bay area. It's been pretty hush-hush so far, largely because the implications could be a major embarrassment for the government. The spy story is even more touchy because it isn't Saddam, Fidel, Osama or even what passes nowadays for the KGB spying on America -- but our "friend" in the war against "evil," Israel.

The basis of the spy allegations is a 60-page document -- a compilation of field reports by Drug Enforcement Administration agents and other U.S. law enforcement officials.

---

by: rumi @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 09:52:11 AM CDT

Let's not believe Wayne Madsen. . . . (9.50 / 2)

he's obviously no Murray Waas or Sy Hersh. But there's alot about this story that's credible. Dick Cheney is famously and obsessively secretive. .he also prevails in any and every American foreign policy position. There have been numerous articles and reports (based on testimony of former State/Defense/OVP people) that Cheney's top people intervene to either block any action they don't agree with or push any initiative they want to promote - and they are powerful enough to trump anyone else in government. They are all neocon ideologues. . they are largely unknown to the public. .and they strongly support the far right in Israel.
They do not want the US to deal with Hamas or
the Palestinian Authority and one of their long-term goals has been to take out Iran and Syria.
For more on this Richard Dreyfuss  had a well written piece in the May issue of The American Prospect called "Vice Squad" (I don't know how to do links, sorry!)
So don't believe Wayne Madsen. . .but don't dismiss the premise either. Perhaps a more credible journalist can follow up.

---

by: rubberducky @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 10:13:50 AM CDT

Never heard of this Wayne Madsen until I posted here on MLW, or until yesterday, for that matter. (0.00 / 0)

However, Wayne Madsen sounds a little too  conspiratorial for my liking, and I'd just as soon avoid him or not trust HIS judgement on t hings much, either.  Right now, there are all kinds of crazy people present, from both the right AND the left, who're into these sort of conspiratorial theories, and, whether this kind of stuff comes from the right OR the left, it's not a good thing.  On the other hand, if we really want a democratic society, we'll have to allow the Wayne Madsens and the Anne Coulters of this world to speak also. 

Here's another thing that bothers me--a lot:  Unfortunately, the more extreme opinions, be they from the right OR the left, have become much more mainstream in this society.  I may be deviating from this diary a little bit, but I'll cite my example anyhow:  When the great classic movie/musical, West Side Story first came out back in October 1961 and walked away with TEN academy awards, including Best Picture of 1961, movie critics such as Pauline Kael dissented from the praise of West Side Story and panned it with a vengeance and vehemence that was totally unlike other film critics.  To say that she didn't like the film West Side Story is a tremendous understatement, imo.  Some of her opinons are  "this hyped-up, slam-bang production"  "about as original as South Pacific at home"
"old fashioned and mawkish, with sugary old stars hovering in the sky.  There's even a heavenly choir"  Everybody's entitled to their opinions, don't get me wrong.  Howoever, another film critic, Bertanelli,  painted West Side Story as "old-fashioned, hokey, and  sanitized."

Unfortunately, these opinions of WSS have become more mainstream in today's society, which, I believe, has contributed to the fact that it's not shown that often, and the fact that many people have dubbed WSS as romanticizing gang violence has also stopped a lot of people from playing it.  I learned this  last fall, when I drove up to Hanover, NH, about an hour from Boston, to see a screening of WSS at Dartmouth College by their film society, when a sheet analysing WSS was passed out to everybody prior to the screening of the film.  It was unnerving to me to see that.  However, I enjoyed the film, as always.  When I recently phoned the Brattle Theatre, in Cambridge, MA, to suggest that they include WSS in their repertoire and to bring it back to their theatre, the young man at the Box office told me that they thought that it wouldn't be a good idea to play WSS at this time due to the increased gang violence here in Boston.  I then told him that gang violence isn't new, that it's always been with us, and that WSS, far from stereotyping all working class whites and Puerto Ricans as being in gangs, and romanticizing gang violence,  does not do that.  If anything, I said, West Side Story drives home the message that violence is NOT the way to go, and that prejudice is extremely destructive.  The young man at the box-office who I spoke with concurred that I had a good point, and that he'd pass my suggestion onto the programer.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

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by: independentminded @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 13:20:48 PM CDT

Thank you (0.00 / 0)

and especially thank you for making my point:  We are thinking people able to come to our own conclusions and that surely no one who participates here believes everything they see or read or hear these days regardless of the source.  Movies included. 

As far as gangs go. . .seems like we've always had them in this country at least, and many others as history tells us.  I doubt seeing WSS is going to case a giant influx in gang membership.  I mean, it is just a movie after all, and in the end the results are not what people wanted, although maybe the two sides gave some thought to less violence, then again maybe not.


Read more Shirl at Village Blue and Matters of Spirit

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by: shirlstars @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 14:06:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're welcome, shirlstars. (10.00 / 1)

Thank you for your encouragement and support on this one.  I always manage to mention WSS at least once a day on  here on MLW for two reasons:  (A):  WSS is my alltime favorite movie, it brings a smile to my face whenever it's mentioned, and I can always find SOMETHING here on MLW that I can relate to this great film, somehow.  (B):  I know that I'm accepted here on MLW despite my frequent talk of this great film classic that I love, and that I won't get laughed at or made fun of.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

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by: independentminded @ Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 15:00:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're right, Miki (0.00 / 0)

There was some criticism of the movie because they DID sanitize parts and some of the lyrics for the censors, but nothing to deserve that kind of screaming.

Anyone who think s tht this romanitices gang violence is just silly.

Today's gangs would think that this depiction of gangs is hokey.

And, to me, this play changed the rules on broadway, and nothng has been seen like it since.  it stands up there with Porgy and Bess as almost operatic musicals.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

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by: Madscientist @ Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 03:11:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks, Madscientist, for your encouragement and support. (0.00 / 0)

West Side Story was not only a breakthrough for broadway theatre, but also a breakthrough for movies as well, although there are people who're claiming, with some justification, that West Side Story was the last GREAT movie musical.  You're right--there's been nothing quite like WSS since, and there probably won't be again, ever.  The film version of West Side Story, too, is in a class all by itself, and there won't ever be anything like it again, as was admitted by movie critics. 

I agree that some parts were "sanitized" , but that was mostly the lyrics, for the censors, but that hasn't stopped me from loving th is great classic film and seeing it virtually everytime it comes to my area.  (the one exception being in March 2001, when an afternoon screening of WSS at a Boston-area art house movie theatre conflicted directly with my late dad's memorial, so I didn't go that afternoon.)  I also had the good fortune, courtesy of some friends of mine down in NYC, to see a special 40th-year anniversary screening of WSS in Radio City Music Hall, where we had a fantastic time.


Ahhhh....Life goes on.

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by: independentminded @ Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 07:41:54 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

what's up with the thread marking? (0.00 / 0)

  The grey boxes placemarked by the 1x1 pixel transparency? Any thoughts or ideas? Does that flag it for posting to Interlink?

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by: rumi @ Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 08:35:15 AM CDT