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The Stained Glass Ceiling: Rankism in Action

by: breakingranks

Tue Aug 29, 2006 at 19:45:07 PM PDT



(Because this needs to be on the front page. - promoted by gatoscuro)



I just read the NYT article about the stained glass ceiling for women in the church, and I was especially struck by this comment:

...in the marketplace of ideas and values, men matter most and...by definition, women have to take a back seat...

Why do men matter most in the marketplace of ideas?


breakingranks :: The Stained Glass Ceiling: Rankism in Action

To offer some background on how I think about this question - my Dad was an ordained minister, and my Mom worked for the church for most of her working career. I know first hand what a thankless struggle it can be to dedicate your life to serving the church.

One of my strongest memories of my father relates to how proud he was to serve as a substitute minister for the "black church" in town. Now that I'm older and the post-civil-rights era has grown with me, I find myself  wondering why there wasn't a black minister available. And for that matter, I don't recall ever seeing a black minister substitute at any of the "white" churches in town.

The older I get, the more I'm amazed by my father's accomplishments. He was the son of a North Carolina farmer, but to study theology he learned Latin, Greek, Hebrew, German, and a little French. He had a second degree in music and later in life he taught computer science at a local community college.

My own interests are just as wide-ranging. I'm incurably addicted to ancient history and culture, particularly religion and philosophy. I don't even consider money when it comes to making life decisions, and I care deeply about social justice. It seems like I was cut out to follow in my father's footsteps.

However, I never considered studying theology or pursuing a career in the church. Why not?

I think, like many women, I weeded myself out early because I couldn't envision myself in the role, and therefore I couldn't imagine anyone else casting me in that role either. On the stage of cultural stereotypes, I was not a "good fit."

What is that role that so many men strive for, and so many women dismiss for themselves? It's the role of the spiritual authority.

One of the dominant themes of world history is the perpetual effort of ambitious empires to convert their neighbors. Why was conversion so important? Shared criteria for truth and justice fostered cultural stability and a sense of common interest. But, more importantly, empire was the center of spiritual authority. The agent's of official religion were not only the "thought leaders" of their time, they had the right of reprimand. They rode in judgment over the spiritual outlook and behavior of others. The great religions of the Book were also the great religions of the Bureaucracy. The primary instrument of spiritual authority is rankism, which is why the history of all churches is rife with every kind of corruption.

While I didn't study theology, I did get a taste of spiritual authority as a form of masculinity while I was in graduate school. While I try not to make too many generalizations about gender, it did seem to me that men were attracted to forms of analysis that enabled them to transcend all arguments and particularist "trivia." They equated transcendant rhetoric with spiritual authority (which seems to be for men an adequate substitute for physical/material power). In some classes, I could swear I could hear the clash as the male students projected frenetic transcend, transcend, transcend mindwaves at each other.

This is the secret driving force behind a lot of the petty politics of academia. In the battle for spiritual authority, There Can Be Only One. No matter how many theories academics spout about race, sex, age, and disability - any divergence from the (white male) stereotype of spiritual authority means that in the end you will be defering to those transcend guys.

The rankism that occurs in the workplace is crude in comparison, but it seems more important because people's livelihoods are at stake. To an unemployed single mother, academic wars seem as irrelevant and stupid as a virtual melee in World of Warcraft or a wheel war on Wikipedia. However, that's where the all important positions of spiritual authority are decided. The people with spiritual authority require deference, tell everyone else what to do, and command astronomical consulting fees.

Lately, PR folk have been fond of the idea that markets are conversations. This implies a level playing field where people negotiate as equals and make fair exchanges. However, the spiritual authority hijacks the market. The spiritual authority stands on a platform and preaches to the masses. Spiritual authority is one (man's) vision imposed on all others, winning pre-eminence through guile, mass mobilization. and acts of verbal violence. The spiritual authority dictates reality, recording their vision on the world as if people were blank tapes. Perhaps spiritual authority does win in the marketplace of ideas and values, but perhaps we should ask ourselves why there should be a marketplace at all. And if there is a market, doesn't a diverse world imply niche markets of ideas instead of some beady-eyed guy shouting transcend, transcend, transcend!

My new favorite quote is by Blake:

...he would do good to others must do it in Minute Particulars; General Good is the plea of the Hypocrite and the Scoundrel.

I know it's a cliche to say that women a more immanent and relational than men - and I'm the first one to chalk this up to nurture rather than nature. However, I think this is, for the time being, the  basic truth of the Stained Glass Ceiling. Women don't want to be spiritual authorities. They don't see themselves as spiritual authorities. Women want to help people, and it doesn't really help people to transcend over them or subject them to your vision. At some point we, as a community of citizens, have to decide whether we want to devote our resources to promoting a few spiritual authorities or cultivating every member of the human community as a worthwhile individual, each with the potential for boundless contribution.


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fucking brilliant and provocative (6.00 / 1)
I'm going to chew on this for awhile if I can, because there's a lot here, and it's all of consequence.

Are you challenging the idea of spirtual authority per se, or just authority part?

I mean, is it just the imposition of spiritual authority that troubles you, or the very notion itself?

I think people have a natural tendency to recognize excellence and virtue in others, and to seek it out if they recognize in someone else what it is they aspire for.

In other words, don't you think that "authorities" have a role in helping people to develop and realize their potential for boundless contribution?

Sorry if this seems fragmented, I'm making music with my kid as I try to collect my thoughts here.

More later, hopefully, thanks again, I love this diary.

Image hosting by Photobucket


I know it is (3.00 / 1)
Maybe that's why my comment,
Just got censored TWICE,
Seems like puttin people,
Back on the "Holy Gail Trail"
Is just too contriversial,
Maybe I'm being censored,
For my own good.

If you guys and gals want to elect me president, I'll save America from an Apocalypse. I walk with God and the spirit shows me many signs. I have it on good authority that God is really pissed off with you people and even worse, Mother Nature is furious.

[ Parent ]
David, nobody censors comments here (6.00 / 2)
We can't even go in and fix typos on our own posts, only in the diaries...and MSOC gets upset if people even delete their own diaries.

On the other hand, glitches do occur, and on occasion I have had to repost something I thought already went through. All of us have, so it's not you.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
right--er, what she said: you won't be censored. Well maybe... (0.00 / 0)
your password will be summarily changed without notice for a while, but that's an administrative matter, not censorship--just ask the one who effects the change.

  Nope, no censorship here, sir.  You may relax.

  ;^)

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.


[ Parent ]
Ok Then (5.00 / 1)
This was my original comment

One of my main deals,
Has been in the field of unpaid research,
Into the history of things,
Learnin stuff just for the fun of it,
Especially when trying to pick up the trail,
Of one Jesus Christ character in particular.

What was the full message going to be?
Why not look at the lost gospels to pick up the trail?

Like the Gospel of Thomas for instance.
The one translated and annotated by Stevan Davies,
Makes a cute copy.

If you like learnin stuff like me and,
Still want to peal another layer off the onion,

You might want to check out,

The Divine Feminine by Elaine Pagels

If you guys and gals want to elect me president, I'll save America from an Apocalypse. I walk with God and the spirit shows me many signs. I have it on good authority that God is really pissed off with you people and even worse, Mother Nature is furious.


[ Parent ]
Been there, done that ;-) n/t (9.00 / 1)


But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
I do so appreciate (9.00 / 1)
...the professional career in unpaid research. :-)

Manifest Dignity!

[ Parent ]
Authority (6.00 / 1)
I think what troubles me is the drive toward a universal spiritual authority (in religious terms - monotheism), because human beings are allegory-making creatures. If there's one God, and one Truth, then there's one human Authority to represent God and Truth. And if there's only slot for this authoritative role, the winner is going to reveal all the biases inherent in our cultural stereotypes.

I'm not as optimistic about people recognizing excellence and virtue in others, though. I've seen a lot of attempts to hide that excellence and dismiss the virtue in order to preserve the hierarchy at hand. In those cases, excellence and virtue were perceived as a threat. :-(

I do agree people will create authorities in a vacuum just to have role-models to aspire to. Bob Fuller - from whom I snitched the term "rankism" - strongly believes in earned rank, and he's not as pessimistic about meritocracy as I am. While the human propensity to set up authority may be natural, maybe this is a nature we should consciously fight against? It's possible that there's no way to retain monotheism and true cultural diversity at the same time.

Manifest Dignity!


[ Parent ]
unity and diversity (11.00 / 1)
The insoluble dilemma.

It's possible that there's no way to retain monotheism and true cultural diversity at the same time.

You got it.

One human morality or many?

I believe, in my heart, that there is one human morality even as my reason tells me this is a deeply problematic proposition.

I have strong sympathies with cultural relativism, yet the platonist/christian/humanist in me insists that some things are Good and some things are Bad, some things virtuous, some things vicious. 

I want to believe that morality is underlain by more than brute power, but without monotheism or its derivatives and adaptations, how can this stand?

While the human propensity to set up authority may be natural, maybe this is a nature we should consciously fight against?

Absolutely.  I'm a huge proponent of fighting against what we consider our baser instincts, or our less productive ones, but at what point does struggling against human nature become a futile and even dangerous exercise in hubris?  At what point do we decide to reconcile ourselves to our nature rather than struggling against it?

Thanks again for the diary.



Image hosting by Photobucket


[ Parent ]
One human morality (6.00 / 1)
I have the same problem! Every instinct tells me that there's one human morality, but that entails an urge to choose an authority to articulate that morality. Then all the flaws of the human sorting and filtering process come into play, and I get depressed. :-(

Manifest Dignity!

[ Parent ]
Breakingranks (9.00 / 2)
This is so profoundly accurate my mind boggles.
As a woman, I have danced all around my lifelong aversion to, or perhaps discomfort with, "spiritual leaders".  Never could I pinpoint exactly why before.  The nature of the authoritarians themselves and their motives for being such are a huge part of the "why" for me.

Brilliant.  Elementary.  And I never got it until now.  Thank you.


I vote to FP this. n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I'm so grateful for this (0.00 / 0)
See my comment at the bottom of the page for why I was MIA. I really regret missing the whole conversation. :-(

Manifest Dignity!

[ Parent ]
Excellent, most excellent (9.00 / 2)
What a way to wake up my brain this chilly, rainy  morning.

I love this diary AND (8.00 / 3)
I have some disagreements.

I think your argument is brilliant, the writing beautiful, and the reflections profound. My quibble is with the essentialism of arguing that there are male and female ways of thinking. I think there are characteristics that we code as masculine/feminine, which more or less are mapped onto male and female, but I think stepping back and looking at this in terms of "gendered" power might be helpful.

Here's what I mean. If knowledge is seen as being "given" and "received," we can map that onto notions of masculine (penetrating, solid, outward) versus feminine (receiving, fluid, inward). It's an understanding of the world that's filtered through notions of masculine and feminine in which authority is masculine--spiritual authority is not receiving, it's projecting outward. (Does that make any sense? I'm trying not to use jargon, which is kind of like trying not to hiccup.)

My guess is that there are spiritually authoratative women and spiritually receptive men, and they're not the ones jockeying for power. They've assumed other roles.

Anyway. Just my 2 cents.

Brava on a great diary.

"I have an existential map. It has "You are here" written all over it."

Steven Wright


good point Lorraine (0.00 / 0)
***ponders more***

{{{mind swirling with heredity/environmental arguments}}}


[ Parent ]
Want to really blow/depress your mind? (5.00 / 1)
Read the biodeterminist classic "Men in Groups" by Lionel Tiger. You'll never want to deal with people again. :-)

Manifest Dignity!

[ Parent ]
techie help (0.00 / 0)
Hey lorraine.  I found an image for this, but have proved a miserable failure in formatting it properly.  Since you have mastered the use of images in your diaries, I appeal to you for help. 

:)

It's the image of Chartres in the MLW album, if you'd be so kind.


Image hosting by Photobucket


[ Parent ]
oh shit weeping (7.00 / 1)
You and I were simultaneously thinking the same thing, but i'm afraid I have NO IDEA what you're talking about. MLW album? Huh?
HELP!

"I have an existential map. It has "You are here" written all over it."

Steven Wright


[ Parent ]
weeping (5.00 / 1)
If you tell me where to look, I'll change the image.

"I have an existential map. It has "You are here" written all over it."

Steven Wright


[ Parent ]
The Photobucket album, weeping? (0.00 / 0)
I think that's what he means, lorraine. If you don't have the password for that, MSOC or one of us can give it to you.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
Ah, you got it, I see. n/t (0.00 / 0)


But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
excellent point, lorraine. (8.20 / 5)
Hillary is a "spiritual authority" type.

And wow, we've got so many beautiful guys here who are "spiritually receptive" types.

But, I wonder if it was more about the glass ceiling in the world of practicing theologians.  They reaaaaally have a gender block that's impenetrable.

“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live”--Oscar Wilde


[ Parent ]
Spiritually Receptive Guys (9.00 / 1)
I know many spiritually receptive guys - and I have eternal respect for my father (white-ish male). But I think that spiritually receptive guys have to be fostered by a supportive environment. Once people have to start pushing and shoving, the current cultural stereotype of Authority still comes out on top - and in the U.S. that's still the tall, white male.

Manifest Dignity!

[ Parent ]
well and bravely said... (0.00 / 0)

  My quibble is with the essentialism of arguing that there are male and female ways of thinking.

  Is it safe to venture such a view here?  I fear for your safety and so I offer these additional 2 cents of mine.  For my 2 cents, you've said something extremely important --and bordering on the taboo. 

  I completely agree with your quibble. 
  Thanks for venturing it.

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.


[ Parent ]
you think we tend toward gender bias on such matters? (0.00 / 0)
is that your point?

-pyrrho-

[ Parent ]
It certainly would be mine (0.00 / 0)
It could be so ingrained,
Many simply aren't aware of it,
The results of the historic,
Mis-Interpretation of Genesis,
Blaming Women for Men's Shortcomings.
You want more on Genesis,
Just ask the Raging Rabbi.

If you guys and gals want to elect me president, I'll save America from an Apocalypse. I walk with God and the spirit shows me many signs. I have it on good authority that God is really pissed off with you people and even worse, Mother Nature is furious.

[ Parent ]
I don't know... (0.00 / 0)
"gender bias" ? 

  I don't know about whether "we" (the MLWers) tend toward  "gender bias"  or not, but I do know that there are many sacred cows among the beliefs of quite a few regulars here and that Lorraine's remark made me instantly fear for her 'safety' in this "haven of liberal thought".

  From what I've read and continue to read here, her comment was a daring one, in my opinion.  It risked bringing the furies down upon her---yeah, that's how I see it.
 

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.


[ Parent ]
well (0.00 / 0)
I find myself pretty unfurious about it.

I agreed with it, if I understood it.

-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
They better not try it (0.00 / 0)
Cuz once I'm President,
They will have to come through me!

If you guys and gals want to elect me president, I'll save America from an Apocalypse. I walk with God and the spirit shows me many signs. I have it on good authority that God is really pissed off with you people and even worse, Mother Nature is furious.

[ Parent ]
We're not so far apart (0.00 / 0)
...on the quibble. I tried to address this at the bottom of the page.

Your analogies do make sense to me: I think of all this as part of a cultural stereotype package (instead of some genetic predisposition).

One think that's always interested me: why do women continue to have sex? As long as men continue to use sexual metaphors to express subordination, then women end up confirming this world view every time they have a roll in the hay. I'm not against sex per se: if men would quit regarding sex as a metaphor for subordination, I'd think differently about it.

Manifest Dignity!


[ Parent ]
domination (5.00 / 1)
It was Catherine MacKinnon who gave us the famous: "Man fucks woman. Subject verb object." It's easy to go back through historical texts at this point and see the language of sexual domination, now that we've had feminist theory to sort of light up the path. But I've long tried to figure out if that language is deliberate on the part of male writers. Sometimes, it just seems so unconscious; lately, the "domination" seems more about "getting fucked up the ass" as I hear it expressed so often, which seems to be a whole different set of fears. I think there is a fear of being penetrated--and I think that fear of penetration plays out in religious metaphors to the point where "homophobia" is one way of denying the homoerotic aspects of being penetrated by the (male) holy spirit.

Breakingranks, do you know about the latest edition of the Carnival of the Feminists? It is specifically seeking work on women and religion, and I think this piece would be perfect. Go here for more info: Redemption Blues.

"I have an existential map. It has "You are here" written all over it."

Steven Wright


[ Parent ]
ITA (0.00 / 0)
I think I could deal with the entire history of the discourse if only there were a sign we were growing out of it now. I think it's going to get worse, though, because TV, in its eternal quest to be shocking and hip, is increasingly propagating this language.

Women seem to be totally unaware of the ramifications, though.

Thanks for pointing out Carnival of the Feminists. I just recently put my pinky toe into blog carnivaling, and I wanted to look at some other carnivals to make sure I know what I'm doing!

I don't know if I'm a good spokesperson for women and religion, though. There's a lot of religion in my background and intellectual interests, but I'm not a church-goer.

Manifest Dignity!


[ Parent ]
carnival of the feminists (0.00 / 0)
Posts every couple of weeks and rotates among blogs. It's especially encouraging of folks who are "putting their toe" into the water. Usually, the guest host announces her preferred topic, which everyone is free to ignore, and then the host selects a series of articles to feature.
As I said, I think this article would be perfect, and I hope you'll consider sending it on.

"I have an existential map. It has "You are here" written all over it."

Steven Wright


[ Parent ]
Who plays football? (4.00 / 1)
Competition. The political and religious hierarchies are dominated by men who were trained, since birth, to be leaders. That system is self-perpetuating and will continue to produce the results that it has always produced: men who are in control and women who are subservient. The missionary position wasn't invented because the sex act works best that way, it was invented as a symbol of sub-mission. All human beings are capable of taking the lead, or they are not and that has nothing to do with gender or age or skin color or any other superficial hereditary quality. It has to do with education and self-confidence. Peace

Bread and Circuses (0.00 / 0)
The international TV audience just needs to appreciate sports that require different physical traits...

But, wait a minute - according to your theory we should have a black (but still male) President right now. Despite all our advances in civil rights, I'm not sure we're any closer to that than we were 30 years ago. :-( 

Which reminds me - I saw the greatest interview with Howard Cossell (sp?). A predominantly white college, Oberlin, had just hired a black coach. Cossell was convinced that no one would follow his directions. The coach was awesome - from today's perspective it's hard to imagine how he wouldn't command authority anywhere he went. Also, Cossell was outraged because students had voted for the coach, lol. :-)

Manifest Dignity!


[ Parent ]
I hope it's okay (8.33 / 3)
That I added the stained glass image. I couldn't help myself.

"I have an existential map. It has "You are here" written all over it."

Steven Wright


For this conclusion most especially: brava! (11.00 / 4)
They don't see themselves as spiritual authorities. Women want to help people, and it doesn't really help people to transcend over them or subject them to your vision. At some point we, as a community of citizens, have to decide whether we want to devote our resources to promoting a few spiritual authorities or cultivating every member of the human community as a worthwhile individual, each with the potential for boundless contribution.


“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live”--Oscar Wilde

Breakingranks, I do think (10.25 / 4)
that situation is changing, even in some mainstream Christian denominations; the Methodists and Episcopalians come to mind. (Of course, the Society of Friends always did encourage women to witness.) It seems to me that your point is valid in this way, though; the more authoritarian the sect, the less likely it is to allow women as priests/ministers.

I would dispute, though, that it can be generalized to secular empires and all times, for this reason: the dynamic is quite different when applied to an inclusive, polytheistic religious milieu. Yes, the Roman Empire (as an example) grafted some religious practices onto the areas they conquered, basically in the form of honoring the Emperor as a god. Roman religion itself was only superficially added in, frequently by adding the name of the closest Roman equivalent to a similar deity (thus Sulis Minerva in Britain, Mars Teutates in Gaul). Because both systems were inclusive, suppression of one was unnecessary: gods could be added to the list. Now, most of the powerful priesthoods of Imperial Rome (with the exception of the Vestal Virgins from ancient times) were exclusively male; women (usually the wife of the priest) played important ritual roles, but had little or no power, even in the imported cults of Cybele and Isis.

I see the predominance of the "transcend guys", as you call them, in both religion and politics, to be an artifact of the hijacking of Western religious thought, over 1500 years ago, by the unholy alliance of exclusionary monotheistic religion (read Chritianity, of course) and political power. Would we be having this same discussion about women and their scarcity in positions of religious authority had Christianity remained a minority religion? It's possible. It's also possible that as a religion out of the loop of power politics, Christianity would not have developed its strong authoritarian streak and women would have maintained the authority they evidently had (partly from holding the purse strings) in the early Church.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


A different view. (7.00 / 1)
Like Loraine, I too quibble with the essentialism of saying there are inherently male or female ways of thinking.

In my mind, a statement like the following, is really nothing more than a justification for sexism:

Women don't want to be spiritual authorities. They don't see themselves as spiritual authorities. Women want to help people, and it doesn't really help people to transcend over them or subject them to your vision.

I believe that there are plenty of women who do want to be seen as spiritual authorities, and history is replete with examples in cultures outside the Judeo-Christian-Muslim male dominated tradition, as well as temporal authorities who want to dominate others.

The problem for women is that it has been extremely difficult for them to assume positions of power in societies which are inherently militaristic given their biological limitations.  I don't think that it has been a lack of desire but a lack of opportunity. 

Now that our society has largely transitioned away from a paradigm where political authority and military might are equated in the minds of those selecting rulers, we seem many women becoming just as power hungry and power mad as men.  Yep, you've come a long way baby. 


What a mess disregard and I'll repost. (0.00 / 0)
nt

[ Parent ]
A legible different view. (8.00 / 3)

*[new] A different view. (0.00 / 0) 
Like Loraine, I too quibble with the essentialism of saying there are inherently male or female ways of thinking.

In my mind, a statement like the following, is really nothing more than a justification for sexism:

Women don't want to be spiritual authorities. They don't see themselves as spiritual authorities. Women want to help people, and it doesn't really help people to transcend over them or subject them to your vision.

I believe that there are plenty of women who do want to be seen as spiritual authorities, and history is replete with examples in cultures outside the Judeo-Christian-Muslim male dominated tradition, as well as temporal authorities who want to dominate others.

The problem for women is that it has been extremely difficult for them to assume positions of power in societies which are inherently militaristic given their biological limitations.  I don't think that it has been a lack of desire but a lack of opportunity. 

Now that our society has largely transitioned away from a paradigm where political authority and military might are equated in the minds of those selecting rulers, we seem many women becoming just as power hungry and power mad as men.  Yep, you've come a long way baby. 

 


holy shit. Call the media. (8.20 / 5)
Cityduck and lorraine have found common ground.
Fourth sign of the impending apocalypse. :)

"I have an existential map. It has "You are here" written all over it."

Steven Wright


[ Parent ]
The National Weather Service... (7.80 / 5)
...will shortly be issuing a Severe Weather Statement regarding unusual weather patterns over Southern California*.

*As everyone knows, the apocalypse will begin in Irvine.

A cat's got her own opinion of human beings. She doesn't say much, but you can tell enough to make you anxious not to hear the whole of it.



[ Parent ]
And I'm told (8.00 / 1)
that a very large order for ice skates and hockey sticks has been placed from someplace south of here...waaaay south.

And I thought the site for the start of the apocalypse was Sunnydale...

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
Zoning changes... (7.00 / 1)
See, Irvine was willing to both rezone AND give tax breaks. Thus, Sunnydale lost out.

Don't worry; Irvine has its own equivalent of a hellmouth.

A cat's got her own opinion of human beings. She doesn't say much, but you can tell enough to make you anxious not to hear the whole of it.



[ Parent ]
but no Buffy dammit. n/t (7.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
I am not a Godless liberal & (9.00 / 2)
When I hear that religions are “changing” to become more inclusive I read the following:

“slowly the realization that God does not discriminate is dawning on a bunch of guys caught up
in the traditions they were taught.”
It’s more of a political problem for these guys than a spiritual one.

To extrapolate the problems of the various churches to a problem with God is ridiculous.

God made the nations & men made the denominations.


Men made the nations too (9.00 / 1)
Iraq pre-Gulf War II is a prime example.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
i was more referring to stuff like.... (0.00 / 0)

Eden was in Iraq – Genesis 2:10-14
Adam & Ever were created in Iraq – Genesis 2:7-8
Satan made his first recorded appearance in Iraq – Genesis 3:1-6
Nimrod established the Babylon & the Tower of Babel was built in Iraq – Genesis 10: 8-9 7 & 11:1-4
The confusion of the languages took place in Iraq – Genesis 11:5-11
Abraham came from a city in Iraq – Genesis 11:31 & Acts 7:2-4
Isaac’s bride came from Iraq – Genesis 24:3-4 & 10
Jacob Spent 20 years in Iraq – Genesis 27:42-45 & 31:38
The first world Empire was in Iraq – Daniel 1:1-2 & 2:36-38
The greatest revival in history was in a city in Iraq – Jonah 3
The events of the book of Esther took place in Iraq – Esther
&
The book of Revelation has prophecies against Babylon, which was the old name for the nation of Iraq – Revelation 17 & 18


[ Parent ]
great diary (9.75 / 4)
Unitarian Universalists often have women as ministers, fwiw. UUism pretty much tells people to believe in whatever does it for them, so the minister is not much more than an academic authority on the history of the religious group and various mystics and some aspects of other faiths. The minister is often a *helping* figure, and sometimes just an inspirational figure, or a theorist - my experience with UUism is that it tends to be rather dry and intellectual. You become accustomed to hearing a lot about Emerson & Thoreau. Women ministers I have seen appear to be interested mostly in creating a "welcoming" environment and fostering group cohesion without bullying.

My experience with organized religion is, however, quite limited. It is interesting that men often turn out to be in positions of authority - that what they say has more influence - in all circles. In my opinion, women usually don't care to lord it over other people, usually preferring to share or work out a cooperative arrangement. I personally believe  it's the way the species is wired (so yes, if I'm sexist, so be it), as males of other mammalian species exhibit similar behaviors.

What about Witches? Isn't any female with magical skills or *secret* knowledge immediately suspect?

Other than the Ramtha cult, I can't think offhand of any other cult/fringe group run by a woman (and that one was supposedly channeling a male warrior from ancient history, or something.)

Maybe women are seen to be of more value in  Earth-centered religions.

Is authority something we even want? That's a good question. I know I don't. Not that I want anyone else to boss me around or determine the course of my life. I want to be left alone to live as I choose, without controlling or directing others, without being directed by them, finding my own truth in my own way. It would never occur to me to make a career out of telling other people how to live. Kind of distasteful to think about, really.

national shopping boycott April 15 - April 22 www.wearenotbuyingit.org


i hesitate to say this, but (9.00 / 2)

Dan Brown's argument that women (& Jews) were  demonized by a corrupt church probably has some merit.

over time, the believers hearing bullshit over & over in sermons takes its toll.

there is a root to misogyny and anti-Semitism that should not be dismissed.


[ Parent ]
I say we don't want authority. (9.67 / 3)
When I say we're looking for a leader, I mean mostly we're looking for someone to engender inspiration, belief in common goals and confidence about achievement.  But, no, no one way, no bowing at the the feet of one leader who isn't to be challenged.

What I loved so much about the conclusion of spiritual authority being imposed on people is the broad sense that there are types of people who don't advocate with the point of view that we all contribute to one another's understanding of humans, that learning happens when dignity and value are reciprocally obvious.  The authoritative demeanor demands that we must recognize that they've got it figured it out and our capacity as humans, our commitment to justice, is hinged upon our commitment to following or forever be cast as "incapable of 'getting' it."

I don't think this gets us very far at all.  It usually involves hearing what needs to be heard but to the exclusion of all else.

The generalities about women and men aside, I think it's such a useful point in every aspect of our lives.  It's such an extraordinary point that I'm not doing it justice on three hours sleep and it was said so well to begin with originally.

Oh, blue, sorry, as you can see I'm only partially responding to you, the rest is a piggy back comment. ;)



“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live”--Oscar Wilde


[ Parent ]
right, well.... (6.00 / 2)
That kind of spontaneous, unintended leadership is nice when it happens, but I still say we have to be the source of our own inspiration. Other people might be pretty cool, which is why we have each other around, but at the end of the day, we've gotta get to that source on our own. Not always easy - guess I've been forced to literally "practice" that skill.


national shopping boycott April 15 - April 22 www.wearenotbuyingit.org

[ Parent ]
I am in a profession in which women have made great (6.00 / 1)
strides.  And I can assure you based on my experience that there is no basis for this conclusion:

In my opinion, women usually don't care to lord it over other people, usually preferring to share or work out a cooperative arrangement.

Given the opportunity, many women react to power the same way as men.

What you are describing is a difference in management styles that I don't think is biologically based.  Are hierarchical or domineering women CEOs or Senators no longer women?  That whole line of thought really makes me uncomfortable.  It's sexist as hell.


[ Parent ]
oh well (0.00 / 0)
Too bad. I said it was sexist. So, I'm sexist. Thank you.

national shopping boycott April 15 - April 22 www.wearenotbuyingit.org

[ Parent ]
Bully Women (4.00 / 1)
I agree that it's a matter of different management styles. There's been a lot of interest in how women "bully" over the last few sense, and I think one of the main points is that they do it by trying to manipulate social relations to exclude other women rather than trying to subordinate them.

Manifest Dignity!

[ Parent ]
Don't know that I can address (8.67 / 3)
the larger diary.

I can say I've been blessed to work with many talented pastors - both male and female - and that my own journey has been most encouraged by people like Rev. Gayla Rapp - who first got me to take my call seriously.  Rev. Geniese Standford, Rev. Anne Rosebrock, my District Superintendent Rev. Cheryl Bell.

The UMC has a pretty strong (at least by comparison) record.  If I'm not mistaken, more than half of the students at the seminary I will someday attend are female - and roughly 1/4 (1/3 in the US) of the Bishops appointed in 2004 were female.

as to if those I've encountered are somehow more interested in obtaining spiritual authority than the average - I don't know

I do know that the focus of my candidacy studies - as has been the case for many years within the UMC - is on "Servant Leadership" - which is not so much about authority and power as it is ministering to the needs of others.

so maybe we Methodist are different.  And certainly I've been hanging out in the more progressive wings of even the UMC - which may skew things

I work for an institution that lets people discern and respond to their call - find their vocation (the place where their greatest joy intersects with the world's deepest need (F. Beuchener) - and I believe that in that there is no male or female, no slave nor free...  all are equally valid and gifted, one despite our differences.

Maybe one day I'll have enough spiritual authority to enforce that :-)

(although I'm told that even after I get the Master of Divinity God still won't do exactly what I say.)

sheesh.  what a ripoff

sometimes you win. sometimes you lose. and sometimes.... it rains.


Hmmm.... (0.00 / 0)
a couple very interesting diaries just posted over on SP that I think folks here would enjoy reading as the subject is related.

Career Women of the Bible: Does It Really Mean "Helpmate"?
by Shawnari [

and
Career Women of the Bible: The 12th Century, B.C.E., Career Woman

Looks like it will be a series - here are a couple excerpts to convince you to click over.

from the 2nd link...

In my imagination I see her under her palm tree, sitting and listening to the people who came to her for justice and peace. Her head nodding as she listens. In my mind's eye I see her standing, veil blowing in the wind, eyes flashing, as she commands Barak to gather his men and fight Sisera at Yahweh's command. I also see her resolutely lead Israel's armies into battle, her chin set, her eyes never wavering from their forward stare. After the battle I see her dancing around the fire, tambourine in hand, singing of the victory in what would become one of the oldest songs recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures. But I also see her in her home, feeding her family, singing stories to her children, going to bed with her husband. Deborah: the first career woman mentioned in the Bible. She is judge, prophet, military leader, and worship leader. But she is also wife, mother, sister, and daughter. It's no wonder that those who advocate that the "bibilical" place for women is in the home and not the workforce, skip right over Deborah and her story.

and from the first - some background on the author

I had just started working on my thesis in seminary. I was tired of being asked if I was going to seminary to be a pastor's wife. I had decided to write a biblical theology of single women in ministry that would show that God's calling for a woman was not dependent on her marital state. I was talking with my thesis advisor, Dr. Joseph Coleson, who was the professor of Old Testament Studies at Nazarene Theological Seminary. He had looked at my outline and thesis proposal and told me that I needed to add a chapter addressing the Creation Story in Genesis 1:1--2:25, particularly the second creation account found in Gen. 2:5-25, where woman is created to be an ezer cenegdo to the man. If the Hebrew phrase simply meant, "helper" then could a woman hold a leadership position in the church, let alone a single woman? But if that isn't what ezer cenegdo meant, then that would open up the vistas I needed to write and successfully defend my thesis. Defend, not in front of the professors at seminary, but to defend from those who say woman was created to be a wife and mother, and only a helpmate for her husband. Dr. Coleson said that the translators who have translated our Bibles into English know that "helpmate" is a gross mistranslation of the Hebrew phrase, and he did not see how they could look themselves in the mirror day-to-day keeping that misintepretation in the Bible. It is the only time I have ever seen him angry. So what does this little Hebrew phrase mean?

Citations even - looks like it will be some good reading.  Enjoy.

sometimes you win. sometimes you lose. and sometimes.... it rains.


[ Parent ]
Neato! (0.00 / 0)
I don't look at Street Prophet often - thanks for calling these out!

(and congrats to Pastor Dan for getting a parish).

Manifest Dignity!


[ Parent ]
Bingo, you nailed it (9.00 / 1)
Women don't want to be spiritual authorities. They don't see themselves as spiritual authorities. Women want to help people, and it doesn't really help people to transcend over them or subject them to your vision. At some point we, as a community of citizens, have to decide whether we want to devote our resources to promoting a few spiritual authorities or cultivating every member of the human community as a worthwhile individual, each with the potential for boundless contribution.

Which is why there is such an outcry against feminism and the right perceives "feminization" of society as a great moral threat.

And I believe that this tendency is a matter of nurture as well.  That is why I have hope for Y-chromosome people like myself.

Want a third party -- 50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts -- Go get 'em


feminization (0.00 / 0)
It creeps me out that feminization is a bad thing. And it makes me never want to have sex again (see above comment). ;-)

Manifest Dignity!

[ Parent ]
i tend to side with lorraine here (8.50 / 4)
in that there seems to be a conflation of sexual essentialism with the way that our society and religion are gendered, which weakens the argument.

but then it may be because my professors in grad school are women, my pastors growing up were of both genders, and my recent ciontact with religious folks over the past decade or so has been with quakers, who have neither a heirarchy of preachers and parishoners, nor one between members of the meeting for any reason, age, sex or status, from what i can see.

i do think that the One Big Answer present in academic battles is a product of monotheistic thought, but i'm a lot less willing to ascribe that to sex per se, and even gender seems like a stretch.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat


interesting point (0.00 / 0)
I shed most of the gender based part of the argument, though I accept it as accurate culturally and historically... the part of this that resonates is about the nature of asserting ranks in all groups.


-pyrrho-

[ Parent ]
monotheism (0.00 / 0)
I agree, and I think I came across as more essentialist than I really am. My thought is the monotheism is combined with gender and cultural stereotypes. So while in this time and place (the U.S. for me) the gender and cultural factors conspire for the tall white male, I would project this outcome on other cultures. I'd also argue that the auspicious sign of our next stage of civilization will be when the combo of monotheism, gender, and culture don't produce the same result anymore.

Manifest Dignity!

[ Parent ]
Lots to think about here (9.50 / 2)
On Monday, Fresh Air had an interview with a female Episcopal priest, Barbara Brown Taylor.  Link here.

She has left the ministry and is teaching religion.  Much of the interview was a discussion of how she was accepted as a spiritual authority both within her congregation, and among other religious leaders in her area.

One of the reasons she cited for leaving ministry was the idea that she was being paid to care.  That loving was a part of her, and to receive remuneration for it took away from who she was.  Her experiences seem to be in line with everything you are saying. 

The question you raise at the end--do we want to promote a few spiritual authorities or empower each individual, is a fascinating one.  The idea that ordinary people need someone to mediate between them and God is one characteristic all religions seem to share.  The kind of paradigm shift you are suggesting has far-reaching implications.  I need to ponder this some more.  Thanks for a very thought-provoking diary.

 

Insert witty quote here.


Hmmm. (0.00 / 0)
Did she ever work in Virginia? I knew a female Episcopal preacher named Barbara. I'm calling her a preacher instead of a rector because if I remember correctly she opted not to take the title of rector in order to make the conservative congregation more comfortable.

Manifest Dignity!

[ Parent ]
I'm not sure (0.00 / 0)
Her bio on the Fresh Air site said she was currently teaching at Piedmont College in Georgia. 

In her interview she said that to avoid the problem of what to call her; "Father" just didn't sound right, she always had her congregation refer to her by her first name.  She has written a book, "Leaving Church: A Memoir of Faith."

Insert witty quote here.


[ Parent ]
thanks for that (9.00 / 1)
you and I don't just see eye to eye, I agree, what you call rankism is a main problem. It is why all progressive organizations tend to grow conservative, I think. 

In terms of framing, people see networks of people as HIERARCHIES, they seek to make their vision self-fulfilling, they work to place themselves in the hierarchy, and then, if they find the hierarchy is not respected, that not all see it as a hierarchy, they attempt to josstle a hierarchical view into place, with ridicule or whatever they can to emphasize. 

A favorite is to cast criticism as "jealousy", this deflects the criticism and also frames the situation as involving "rank" while putting critics and ombudsman low in the resultant ranking. There are a lot of habits like this. 

The importance for liberals and progressives is huge, we can't beat conservatives because we hold dear to rank and hierarchy, and the more tightly we hold onto that the more we ourselves BECOME conservative.


-pyrrho-


Heh. (6.00 / 1)
I just encountered a new one today. Apparently contesting rankism is "accusatory" shifting the character burden onto the person who is the victim of rankism while enabling the rankist to justify their actions as a form of moral superiority. I.e., the person "accusing" is automatically bad, so the person who is accused is automatically good and thus justified in contrast. I hope that makes sense - it was quite an eye-opener for me. :-(

Manifest Dignity!

[ Parent ]
Wow! (7.00 / 2)
Something extremely depressing happened to me last night, and I didn't check back here for comments. I definitely didn't expect this kind of thoughtful response, and I feel bad that I wasn't here to reply to comments.

There's one comment I do think it's particularly important to respond to - about how easily generalizations about women turn into essentialism. I resist essentialism as hard as I can, and I believe most of what appears to be essentialism is just the result of ongoing reinforcement of cultural stereotypes.

I guess the basic question is always whether we need a spiritual authority. If we think we need a spiritual authority, the expected traits easily get conflated with temporal authority (a warrior's forcefulness, a judge's sternness). If we had spiritual matters to the "person in charge", then of course people will struggle for it, and the sad truth is that in U.S. society the tall, white male will get that spot. :-(

Manifest Dignity!


Ps. (0.00 / 0)
Thank you for adding the picture - that's great!

Manifest Dignity!

[ Parent ]


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