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Wherein I Am Reluctantly Dragged Against My Will Into the Pro-Impeachment Camp

by: thereisnospoon

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 15:38:59 PM PST






Until today, I have not supported, given present circumstances, the impeachment of George W. Bush.

This must be clearly understood.  I have always been in the pragmatist camp when talk of impeachment rolls around, and I remain unabashedly in that camp.  To me, Markos was and remains 100% correct in his arguments against the impeachment of the President:

1) the future is much more important than the past;

2) the American people elected us to fix this country, not to involve ourselves in mind-numbing partisan imbroglios;

3) The Democrats have for the next two years an opportunity to show the American Public what we stand for and what we are made of, and to frame ourselves for a change;

4) impeaching the President would only leave Cheney in his place--and impeaching both of them to install Pelosi would be a grave miscarriage of American Democracy.

On all these things, I have changed my mind not a whit.  I remain a proud and unashamed pragmatist.  Allow me to explain, therefore, my change of heart and newfound support of impeachment:




thereisnospoon :: Wherein I Am Reluctantly Dragged Against My Will Into the Pro-Impeachment Camp


Arguments that justice must be done upon George Bush for his crimes against the constitution and against America hold little sway for me.  "Justice" was quite publicly carried out against Saddam Hussein for his crimes against Iraq--but that hasn't made Iraq any safer, or relieved the pain of his crimes.  Indeed, "Justice" is best done by carrying the country forward on a new path, with as much bipartisanship as progressive decency will allow, and with a minimum of partisan recrimination.  On this, I have changed my mind not a whit.

Arguments that Bush must be removed from power as soon as possible in order to prevent further bloodshed and depradations also have little sway for me.  Put Democrats in the presidency tomorrow, and the sands of Iraq will still swallow the blood of American soldiers and innocent Iraqi civilians.  Put Democrats in total control tomorrow, and the lobbyists and corporations will still own the reins of power for years as we fight to loosen their grip on members of our own party.  Removing Bush from power tomorrow won't immediately fix any of the great problems our country faces; indeed, the congress was more important in many ways than the Presidency itself.  On this, I have changed my mind not a whit.

Arguments that future Presidents must be warned that such behavior is unacceptable hold little sway; a future Democratic president will not usurp the powers that Bush has attempted--and a failed impeachment drive will do little to stop the next Republican president from trying the same.

Arguments that world opinion demands Bush's impeachment also carry little weight for me; with Bush's clear re-election in 2004, his impeachment in 2007/2008 with little time left to serve in his administration will serve only to show that Americans are feckless, short-sighted and recriminatory.

On the inadequacy of none of these arguments have I changed my mind a whit.  The potential for Democrats to act positively to take this country in a different direction with policy initiatives and responsible government outweighs any of these possible benefits of impeachment in my mind.

It is with a heavy heart and extraordinary reluctance, therefore, that I too now take up the banner of impeachment.  Even now, I hold that impeachment proceedings should not begin tomorrow.  Or three months from now.  Or six months from now.  Not even necessarily a year from now.

There is no emergency demanding impeachment with deliberate haste.  And Democrats MUST show their mettle by demonstrating their ability to pass bold and progressive policy initiatives that benefit the American people.

But impeachmeent it must be.  The President leaves us no other choice.
------------------------------------------------------

The reason I have changed my mind on this issue stems, ironically, from the same source that gave rise to my late opposition of impeachment: pragmatism.

The fact is that George Bush's continued insistence on using contra-legal signing statements to justify increasingly outrageous activities has left Americans with any shred of respect for the law with their backs against the wall.  As Kagro X so brilliantly states:

But as we've sailed past the 800 mark in terms of how many of these signing statements Bush has issued, and may well be on our way to 1,000 and beyond, they're beginning to take on an additional meaning, beyond the legal and practical. They're taking on a symbolic meaning, although it might actually be true that they were meant to have this meaning all along. And that symbolic meaning is that they demonstrate that Bush is reserving for himself the right to do anything. He just keeps planting stakes further and further out, noting well that nobody's really willing to set boundaries. Don't challenge me, he says, because I'll make you prove you can make it stick. That's how I measure power. If you can't physically restrain me from doing these things, you can't stop me.

Bush, you see, is playing a momentous and deeply consequential game of Constitutional poker with the Democrats.  With every round and on every issue he continues to bluff the Democrats and up the ante--and he figures that the Dems care too much about keeping their newly won chips to ever dare call his bluff.  He knows that when all is said and done, there's not a soul who can or will truly call his bluff without taking the issue all the way to an impeachment proceeding--and he believes wholeheartedly that Democrats would never truly carry it that far.

As I stated in my diary of two days ago, the Republicans in general and Bush in particular are like children playing a giant game of chicken with their parents--a game where they feel that they get to be as irresponsible as they want to be, and that the Democrats will be the adults, clean up the mess, and not carry matters to such an end that the American people suffer calamitously as a result.

Further, there's no reason to believe this pattern of behavior will not continue into the forseeable future.  There is no reason to believe that he won't continue to up the ante.  Laws against torture?  Executive privilege.  Anti-corruption reforms?  I'll see fit to nominate whom I choose.  Subpoenas?  They don't apply to me.

Well, when a destructive person hell-bent on saving his own ass or taking everything and everyone down with him continues to bluff, threaten and up the ante, the only pragmatic thing to do is to call that bluff before the ante gets too expensive for well-meaning people to contemplate.

And Impeachment really is the only option left.  This was really crystalized for me in a thread on Free Republic of all places, where a commenter ironically named "Founding Father" really laid out the bare bones of the matter in a thread on Bush's laughable plan to balance the budget by 2012:

Constitutionally speaking, the President doesn't have to spend money congress appropriates; the President, through his justice department doesn't have to enforce laws congress passes; the President, again through his justice department and other executive departments doesn't have to enforce any federal court ruling (remember Andrew Jackson), I could go on but you catch my drift...

[skip to later comment by same author]

reply to: However, the President refusing to enforce Constitutional laws isn't among those checks within the Constitution.

Sorry, I didn't realize I needed to point out the obvious, which is the President refuses to do so because he doesn't believe the law is constitutional and since he has equal standing with the other branches the judicial branch can do nothing and the legislative branch has only the impeachment/conviction option.

As batshit crazy and on the wrong side of the issue as he is, the guy is right: Impeachment is the final pragmatic check and balance on a President who behaves like an Emperor.  To many of these people, it is the ONLY check or balance on such a president.  Indeed, in the minds of Bush and his legal team, a President can literally get away with almost ANYTHING and it's not a problem (as Nixon said, "If the President does it, that means it's legal")--after all, if the Congress finds him to be out of control, they can always impeach him!  That's the check and balance!

So what we have now is a President who figures it's okay to open your mail without a warrant--after all, who's to stop him?  If Congress thinks it's such a bad idea, we'll just move to impeach, right?  Because if we don't move to impeach, it shows we just really didn't care bad enough--or that we figure we've got more to lose than he does.

And like the childish, addictive, irresponsible criminal he is, he'll use the same logic to continue upping the ante, calling our bluff, and DARING us to do something about it.

And he gets away with it because he also knows that we are the adults.  That we actually care about the country.  That we don't WANT to waste the next six months in a bitter, partisan impeachment battle.  That we care about doing more than just using the reins of power to shovel pork to our biggest contributors.  That we care too much about our new majority to put it in jeopardy by possibly pissing off the voters.  That we are pragmatic have too much to lose, in other words.

Well, THIS pragmatist has finally had enough.

I refuse to sit back and allow myself, my party and my country to be taunted, bluffed, and intimidated by a two-bit teenage criminal who figures that my political allies and I have too much forbearance, optimism, pragmatism and common decency to hold him to account.

If it were my adult kid, I'd cut him off and change the locks.  If it were my dog, I'd give him away.  If it were my employee, I'd fire him on the spot.

---------------------------------------------

So though it pains me greatly to say it, Impeach the sumbitch.  I don't care when.  I don't care how.  Figure out what it will take.  Figure out what the public will support.  Figure out when they will support it.  Above all, figure out the fastest and least controversial way to get it done, while maximizing our opportunity to pass progressive legislation.

But call his bluff.  He refuses to have it any other way.  And he refuses to leave us--even the avowed pragmatists among us--any other choice.



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Worse still is the precedent he's trying to create. (9.50 / 2)
If George "My shit don't stink" Bush gets away with it, he'll be the first in a long line of Emperor Presidents!

Bush isn't just criminal, he's treasonous. And unless I'm wrong, treason still carries the death penalty.

Investigate him, impeach him, and convict him, then give him some Iraqi justice at the end of a rope. Let's see if he dies with as much dignity as Saddam Hussein did.  I doubt he's man enough.


[ Parent ]
again. welcome 'spoon! (0.00 / 0)


-8.88/-7.08... Go ahead, accuse me again of being a rightwing conservative.

[ Parent ]
I think the little (9.00 / 2)
shit really wants to break his daddy's heart after seeing him blubber over Jeb's broken career.

Well, let's give him what he wants....





"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG


he must be PUNISHED (9.67 / 3)
impeachment, prison...either way I'm cool with it. he's just begging to be punished. he is screaming for help and we the American people must help him.
VIOLENCE IS THE VOICE OF THE UNHEARD.
his daddy doesn't love him so he has wrecked the entire world to get attention. it's pathetic.

Sadie Yates
RIP
2003-2008


can you believe he replace the generals? (9.00 / 2)
that's what he does. he replaces people who disagree. with all his money and power he can BUY PEOPLE who will do whatever he asks. look how he bought McCain and Hillary.

Sadie Yates
RIP
2003-2008


it's absolutely pathetic (0.00 / 0)
"a man he hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest."

--Paul Simon


[ Parent ]
disturbed (10.00 / 1)
I guess a lot of people do that but they are not the president of the US. he must be stopped.

Sadie Yates
RIP
2003-2008


[ Parent ]
I've already been to the DNC blog... (9.00 / 2)
..to say that I SWEAR ON MY LIFE that if the Dems don't do everything in their power to stop this madness, I will never vote for them again or send them one dull penny. this is it. and yes he should be impeached. he should be put in a prison cell for all eternity. a draft dodging cokehead drunk fool sending our brave military to a blood bath.
IMPEACH HIM OR DROP HIM IN BAGHDAD!!!
EITHER WAY- IT WORKS FOR ME!

Sadie Yates
RIP
2003-2008


But Cheney will just pardon him. (0.00 / 0)
You think impeachment scares these fuckers?  I'll bet Cheney's already got the pardon written out.

My will is easy to decide, for I have nothing to divide. My kin won't need to fuss and moan Moss don't cling to a rolling stone. -- Joe Hill,

Alternate chronology (0.00 / 0)
I think Cheney will not last for another 2 years.

Cheney quits.

Bush pardons him.

Bush replaces him with Gerald Ford Jr. (or a player to be named later)

Bush is impeached or like Nixon, resigns in disgrace.

A player to be named later pardons Bush.

And our long national nightmare (Part II) is over. Once again.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington


[ Parent ]
Hey! Don't misplace that crystal ball. (0.00 / 0)
Seems like a good one.

My will is easy to decide, for I have nothing to divide. My kin won't need to fuss and moan Moss don't cling to a rolling stone. -- Joe Hill,

[ Parent ]
please note: "U.S. Constitution: Article II "... " PARDONS AND REPRIEVES "... (10.00 / 2)

  "Scope of the Power

The power embraces all ''offences against the United States,'' except cases of impeachment , " ...

  Find Law on U.S. Constitution, Article 2, Section 2, clause 1: Pardons, Annotations, Pardons and Reprieves, Scope of the power

  Once impeached, assuming subsequent removal on conviction by the Senate's trial verdict of guilty on the charges levied, the new president, whoever that may prove to be, has no power to pardon the impeachment or to reverse its effect, the removal from office, which, by that time anyway, should have already taken place.

  It's true that if Cheney were allowed to replace Bush and were in office during or after Bush faced civil or criminal charges and was convicted of them by a U.S. court, Cheney could, at that point, grant Bush a pardon---and I don't doubt that he would do so. 

  That, however, assumes a lot.

  Also, neither Cheney nor any other U.S. official could shield Bush or any other U.S. officials from trial and conviction before the international criminal court, should any of them fall into that courts hands; nor could convictions by it be pardoned by a U.S. president.

 

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.


[ Parent ]
Right (0.00 / 0)
But the penalties for conviction after impeachment is removal from office.

Cheney won't give a shit if he's impeached after he resigns.

Pardons in this case (as with Nixon) would preclude subsequent criminal charges.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington


[ Parent ]
Pardons in this case (as with Nixon) would preclude subsequent criminal charges. (0.00 / 0)
Not in the Hague, they wouldn't.

  Ultimately, of course, you have a point: if the Congress doesn't give a fuck, if the American people don't give a fuck---and that doesn't mean they are "really, really "steamed" about it and stamp their feet and say, "Better watch out!  I may become very, very annoyed some decade or two, now!", it means, "Try that at your immediate peril and that of everyone living soul you hold dear; there are no caverns deep enough, no security details thick enough; we will come for you, and you'll fucking wish you were in a cave with Oussama Bin Laden!"---then there is really nothing to stop them from simply pardoning  themselves, in advance as, at that point--and the question is all about how near that point now is---the law simply has no meaning anyway. 

  Eventually, people catch on to the fact that they are living in a lawless state.  Even the most incredibly politically stupid people you can imagine, like, for example, contemporary Americans of the U.S.

  Yeah, you've got me there, counselor.  This is part of the reason I wrote a post which was about Gerald Ford and was headed, "Our long national nightmare" continues, is continuing.

  So, whaddaya gonna do?

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.


[ Parent ]
Criminal indictment & conviction is what's needed. (9.67 / 3)
It is about the future of the country! After all, Cheney and Rumsfeld learned at the knee of Jerry Ford that illegal acts in high office have have no real consequences on the perpetrators.  Nixon went on to lucrative book deals and a "rehabilitated" status of elder commentator on national policy.

Only the country suffered.

Impeachment is only a palliative. Criminal conviction and hard jail time is the cure. 


[ Parent ]
Burning down the house (10.00 / 1)
As I stated in my diary of two days ago, the Republicans in general and Bush in particular are like children playing a giant game of chicken with their parents--a game where they feel that they get to be as irresponsible as they want to be, and that the Democrats will be the adults, clean up the mess, and not carry matters to such an end that the American people suffer calamitously as a result.

If some of the psych profiles that have been done lately are true, he is out to burn down the house to get the attention of the parents (us!).  And the burning house could be of a form that is much worse than a conventional bombing of Iran's nuke facilities, as presently rumored.

But seriously, thereisnospoon, I too was a pragmatist all along.  Six months ago I made all of Kos's arguments almost word for word.  Had I written them down, at the time, I probably would have had a case for plaigarism today -- that was how similar my view on infringement was to Kos's recent view.

However, about 2 months ago I just plain said fuck it.  You and Kos are simply behind the times.  And I would guess the Democrats in Congress are even further behind in the necessary analysis to reach the decision.  In some ways, that's okay.  Because Bush will make the case himself.  He doesn't need a prosecuting body to make impeachment a reality.

He simply has to be impeached, with or without Cheney.  Bush has to go first.


If Bush is not impeached (9.33 / 3)
I don't think we'll have a future.

as much as I want it (9.00 / 1)
and scream it, I have come to the conclusion that it would take 3 years (as it did with Nixon & Clinton) for all the investigations and commitees to make it happen. 

We have shit to do UNDOING the shit they have done.  In the time it would take, he will be gone anyway, and we would have spent all our time chasing well-armoured Dragons, rather than shutting off that dragon's food and burning its lair.


You are right. The damage is deep. (0.00 / 0)
And he is still in power. And he can do even more damage.

So I like it when people realize that impeachment makes sense.


My Left Wing, the bravest and most beautiful freedom rant.


[ Parent ]
I agree with pretty much everything you've said (0.00 / 0)
I am not in the impeach now camp.  I think it is self defeating for the democrats.
However, the signing statements and his spitting on the constitution everyday is too much.  He swore to uphold and defend the constitution and in 6 years he has done neither as I do think he believes in the constitution.

Nice to see that you've figured out... (9.00 / 1)
that you can be pragmatic and still vociferously insist on impeachment, that's been my position all along... in fact, the only way impeachment will proceed or even succeed is if it's nurtured in a patient, fluid, and pragmatic way...and yes, our very country and Democracy hangs in the balance.

... they leveled a bunch of articles at Nixon and eventually the "lying in office" was the only one that really drove him out, actually the least offensive of the charges... sort of like Al Capone being put away for tax evasion.

Welcome aboard thereisnospoon! The surreality based community has a huge tent and we generally entertain and welcome all opinions... ; )

Dudehisattva... "Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom"


welcome, slow-learner, to reality. Better late than never... (0.00 / 0)

Until today, I have not supported, given present circumstances, the impeachment of George W. Bush.
This must be clearly understood.  I have always been in the pragmatist camp when talk of impeachment rolls around, and I remain unabashedly in that camp.  To me, Markos was and remains 100% correct in his arguments against the impeachment of the President:
1) the future is much more important than the past;
2) the American people elected us to fix this country, not to involve ourselves in mind-numbing partisan imbroglios;
3) The Democrats have for the next two years an opportunity to show the American Public what we stand for and what we are made of, and to frame ourselves for a change;
4) impeaching the President would only leave Cheney in his place--and impeaching both of them to install Pelosi would be a grave miscarriage of American Democracy.

On all these things, I have changed my mind not a whit.  I remain a proud and unashamed pragmatist.  Allow me to explain, therefore, my change of heart and newfound support of impeachment below the fold.

thereisnospoon :: Wherein I am reluctantly dragged against my will into the Pro-Impeachment Camp 
Arguments that justice must be done upon George Bush for his crimes against the constitution and against America hold little sway for me.  "Justice" was quite publicly carried out against Saddam Hussein for his crimes against Iraq--but that hasn't made Iraq any safer, or relieved the pain of his crimes.  Indeed, "Justice" is best done by carrying the country forward on a new path, with as much bipartisanship as progressive decency will allow, and with a minimum of partisan recrimination.  On this, I have changed my mind not a whit.
Arguments that Bush must be removed from power as soon as possible in order to prevent further bloodshed and depradations also have little sway for me.  Put Democrats in the presidency tomorrow, and the sands of Iraq will still swallow the blood of American soldiers and innocent Iraqi civilians.  Put Democrats in total control tomorrow, and the lobbyists and corporations will still own the reins of power for years as we fight to loosen their grip on members of our own party.  Removing Bush from power tomorrow won't immediately fix any of the great problems our country faces; indeed, the congress was more important in many ways than the Presidency itself.  On this, I have changed my mind not a whit.

Arguments that future Presidents must be warned that such behavior is unacceptable hold little sway; a future Democratic president will not usurp the powers that Bush has attempted--and a failed impeachment drive will do little to stop the next Republican president from trying the same.

  Your anguished reluctance is, besides a pathetic and hilarious spectacle to behold, an insult to the numerous regulars here who grasped far better and far sooner than not just you did but also those you trot out here in this diary to instruct us on how you came to this painful recognition.

  Dear me! The resistance, the real, can now exult---you, the majestic Thereisnospoon, are now ready to join just little ol' us.  Bush, Dude!, your goose is now cooked!

  Still, there's no "rush", you assure us. LOL!  Well, suppose we wait until the last three weeks of his present term, huh?  That wouldn't be rushing things, would it.

  Unlikle you, the level-headed pragmatist, I, starry-eyed semi-idealist that I am, think of the many, many, many thousands already dead for whom your up-dated pragmatic avowal that impeachment is, alas, necessary despite its potential harm to the razor-thin but all-important Democratic-Party-majority which so concerns you, is simply far, far too late in coming.

  I think, too, of those who are going to die pointlessly during your decent interval in which we take care not to "rush".

  I feel myself close to the sort of anger which could prompt me to write something for which I'd have to apologize later.  Better that I leave before that point.

  Still, let me say just this much: you strike me as the sort of person whose pragmatism would immediately assume an entirely different color if you were drafted into the U.S. military next week and informed in the last days of boot camp that your first orders were deployment to Iraq, Iran or any of the other present or near-future Bush-made death-traps.  In such a situation, I feel sure, your current pragmatism would suffer another jolt from the reality which so many here--- those you'd lend your precious but begrudged support to---already understood quite some time ago.

  If only you weren't so representative of a widespread blind stupidity, I'll feel a whole lot better about the nation's prospects in light of this sea-change in your understanding of the importance of being impeached--and removed.

  Quick! Out of here I must me get, before I write more!!!!

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.


The Bush-Cheney Conundrum (0.00 / 0)
Impeach them together.  Convict them together.  Remove them together.

We're running out of time here.  Because the last thing that Bush will do before leaving office is pardon everyone who enabled him.  He must be gone before he can do this.

We must have on record that he was an illegitimate president in order to invalidate those pardons if he isn't removed quickly.  That makes the job even more difficult.  Because it wades into the partisan waters of the 2000 and 2004 elections.

So far, he is counting on Republican loyalty to prevent him from being convicted.  His not believing that his own party would take him down is the only way to blindside him before he can pardon his cronies.

Anyone got odds on how likely that is to happen even if the Democrats are on their game?

Want a third party -- 50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts -- Go get 'em


OR, the Congress COULD DO what it OUGHT TO HAVE DONE ... (0.00 / 0)
thirty-two years ago, when one unelected Gerald R. Ford told the nation that our long national nightmare was over, pardoning the man he just replaced as president--namely, by sufficient vote of both House and Senate, and in a manner beyond the reach of a president's veto, amend the U.S. Constitution to remove the president's pardon powers entirely.

  Of course, you could say, there's no way that they're going to do that.

  To which I reply that, in that case, they may, "of course," be courting the next nearest thing to the irrevocable ruin of the nation, full stop.

  Ho hum.  Ah well.  And tomorrow is not another day.

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.


[ Parent ]
Conventional wisdom (11.00 / 1)
is that the pardon healed the country.  What BS!!  Our country has been more and more divided ever since.  Did Ronald Reagan heal anything?  I guess that there's been no culture war???????????  Is our country healed under Bush?  How is it different than it would have been hadn't Ford pardoned Nixon?

The conventional wisdom and the mainstream media meme about healing is so easily refuted one wonders why the reputations of those propagating such BS are not ruined.

At least Nixon's papers could not be locked up.  I think that was a condition of the pardon.

"You can be shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right." Hunter/Garcia


[ Parent ]
that's the $ 64,000,000,000 question ... (0.00 / 0)

  "How is it different than it would have been hadn't Ford pardoned Nixon?"

  They should run this question continuously on the lighted moving-message  billboard in Times Square---exactly as you have it here, exactly.

  No preamble needed.

  really beautiful, your question. 

  Thank you!

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.


[ Parent ]
Removing the President's pardon powers (0.00 / 0)
I would very carefully study why the president's pardon powers were put into the Constitution in the first place before yanking it just because it has been abused.

There are some situations in which the president being able to pardon people brings justice when some other SOB has gamed the law to convict someone on essentially trumped up charges or by the stampeding of public opinion.

And someone remarked recently that there probably would be no more amendments to the Constitution because of the divisiveness in state legislatures, between rural states and urban states, and between less populous states and more populous states.

I don't think that that is the silver bullet.

Want a third party -- 50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts -- Go get 'em


[ Parent ]
I don't see it your way at all & here's why ... (0.00 / 0)
  I don't object to looking at the founder's debates on this (or any other) point of the Constitution for guidance as to the reasoning behind some article or clause's adoption.

  However, whatever their reasoning was then, we have something that they lacked: 200+ years of experience with this item of fundamental law.  Now, it's true, I've not taken the time to research the history of the use of the executive pardon, but I know off hand of a few outrageous uses of it.

  For me, those outrages are worse than the benefits we might argue have been seen.  Presidents pardon for political reasons and interests, and that is true regardless of party. 

  Let's keep something in mind: a pardon is just that, a pardon---its purpose is not to rescue the innocent from wrongful conviction or sentencing or punishment, it is used to "pardon" those who are admittedly guilty as charged and convicted.

  Therefore, to retain this measure simply because one day, it might be used in some admirable way while it (so I contend) is routinely used to serve petty political interests, does not present a convincing case in my opinion.

  We're talking here about a measure the use of which is now and has already put the most vital interests of the nation in peril; and you're claiming that against that, it should be considered important to preserve because an individual now and then could deserve pardon for his or her crimes and no other agency would grant it.

  I don't buy that argument.  The nation's interests come far, far ahead of those you've called up so far.

  I say remove the pardon power completely and ASAP.  If some pardon power is essential, let it placed, after due study, somewhere else and let its restrictions be such that it may not ever be invoked in favor of any past or present elected official.

  The Founders were great guys but they weren't perfect and they knew it.  That's why they designed the system so that mistakes, their own included, could be corrected.

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.


[ Parent ]
Good points (9.00 / 1)
I say remove the pardon power completely and ASAP.  If some pardon power is essential, let it placed, after due study, somewhere else and let its restrictions be such that it may not ever be invoked in favor of any past or present elected official.

I agree with this and would extend it to any official in a position of public trust (to use the language of the Constitution in the case of impeachment).

Want a third party -- 50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts -- Go get 'em


[ Parent ]
Even better! : ..."and would extend it to any official in a position of public trust"... (0.00 / 0)

  "I agree with this and would extend it to any official in a position of public trust (to use the language of the Constitution in the case of impeachment)."

  Yes, your addition makes it even better!

  It's a deal then---you 'n me's amendin' the Const'tution, pronto!

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.


[ Parent ]
"A sceptre snatch'd with an unruly hand"... (0.00 / 0)

"  A sceptre snatch'd with an unruly hand
Must be as boisterously maintain'd as gain'd;
And he that stands upon a slippery place
Makes nice of no vile hold to stay him up:" ...

  -- The Life and Death of King John, III, iv.



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