How Not To Be An Asshole: A Guide For Men

Now (10.71 / 17)

I believe there was a promise of cookies and pie.

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by: iwiwus @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 13:11:40 PM CDT

Pie (7.00 / 2)

Here you go. Someone else will have to bring the cookies.

My Left Wing Political t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.

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by: Renee in Ohio @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 13:23:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

C'mere. (11.00 / 1)

Now, careful of the cookies -- I'd only eat one -- two at most.

As for the pie, it's gooseberry -- Adam's favourite...

Thank you SO much for crossposting this, truly.

I pinked it up a bit.

: )

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 13:23:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Looks more like a salmon to me (0.00 / 0)

I have a Dell 24 inch flatscreen monitor.

But I'm not good with colours.  That's why my wardrobe is gray, blue, and black.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

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by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 16:52:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Damned (6.00 / 2)

if you do, damned if you don't.

If you don't get into the mix, you're lumped into the "Deafening Male Silence Orchestra" on this issue and considered part of the problem.

If you do get involved and don't necessarily agree with each and every sentiment expressed by the myriad female views and contributions on the subject, you're a misogynist, creep, sexist asshole.

What this essay seems to be asking for, IMO, is express agreement with whatever the "correct" people decide.

I'll pass, thanks.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 13:20:59 PM CDT

Thank you, Jake's. (7.50 / 4)

Good decision.

: )

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 13:22:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Good stuff (0.00 / 0)

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 13:24:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

There's a difference . . (9.33 / 9)

between disagreeing with a sentiment and dismissing an issue outright because "it's not that important". The latter is what the essay was about.

Also, I think it would be impossible to agree with every single woman, since they're, you know, different people and don't all think alike.

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by: iwiwus @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 13:28:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree (11.00 / 1)

But there are a lot of people, especially on the BIG subjects like racism and sexism, who take even minor disagreements as signs that the other person is not only dismissing them, but is also embracing the very injustice they rally against.

Which is why a lot of guys avoid diaries on feminism and a lot of whites avoid diaries on racism.

Which only compounds the problem.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 13:38:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

OK, then, Jake's, look at it this way: (10.40 / 5)

A person learns a lot more by listening than s/he does by talking.

(And iwiwus and MSO'C: thanks so much. I'm flattered.)

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by: Chris Clarke @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 14:19:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

hey (0.00 / 0)

That was my line. Not like I patented it or anything, though.

mbr + dv + woyg

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by: keirdubois @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 15:06:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry! (9.00 / 1)

I blame the lack of caffeine, Keir.

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by: Chris Clarke @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 15:12:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

or, as the old nursery rhyme put it (9.00 / 1)

There was a wise owl
who lived in an oak.
The more he heard,
the less he spoke;
the less he spoke,
the more he heard-
Why aren't we all
like that old bird?

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

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by: wu ming @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 22:49:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Is that pink TOO pink? (8.00 / 1)

It looks AWFULLY pink to me.

But I'm on a mac, and I fuck with my screen stuff too much to know what it ACTUALLY looks like to anyone else.

Which is really irresponsible... Adam says we HAVE to get a new one, that runs windows because anyone who runs a fucking website ought to see the site everyone ELSE is seeing...

He's probably right. I'm living in fantasy land, here, while you're all probably suffering the aesthetic tortures of the damned.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 13:35:42 PM CDT

I'm also on a mac... (10.00 / 1)

and it is fairly pink, but not annoyingly so.  I haven't played with my screen settings too too much though.

This is a rather scary time to live in isn't it?

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by: pegleghippie @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 13:49:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Windows Users (9.00 / 1)

see different things? I gotta wonder what I'm missing out on. Oh, wait, I don't really care.

Pink seems fine to me.

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by: iwiwus @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 13:50:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's not a true magenta (6.00 / 1)

.....more like pepto bismol pink

I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one hell of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult. E. B. White

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by: a small quiet voice @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 14:42:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Looks kind of Dusty Rose to me. n/t (6.50 / 2)

My will is easy to decide, for I have nothing to divide. My kin won't need to fuss and moan Moss don't cling to a rolling stone. -- Joe Hill,

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by: slick riddles @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 15:42:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's salmon, I tell you (7.50 / 4)

I saw that colour at Home Depot...it's from the Alexander Julian "Literary Lions" collection...Salmon Rushdie.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

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by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 16:54:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Very well done (10.00 / 2)

I read this yesterday on Pandagon and I think it is great, Chris. I must save this and refer to it in the future.

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by: katecontinued @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 13:47:36 PM CDT

what does "gedankenexperiment" mean? (5.00 / 1)

Is that a German word?  I'm curious, i go look it up.
Main Entry: ge·dank·en·ex·per·i·ment
Pronunciation: g&-'dä[ng]-k&n-ik-"sper-&-m&nt also -"spir-
Function: noun
Etymology: German, from Gedanke thought + Experiment experiment
: an experiment carried out in thought only

alohapolitics.com

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by: Keone Michaels @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 14:03:14 PM CDT

Exactly (5.00 / 1)

Einstein was said to be among the first exponents of the term and concept.

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by: tbrucegodfrey @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 14:14:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Gedankenversuch (0.00 / 0)

is the term.  Used in German long before Einstein.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

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by: Madscientist @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 20:10:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

unless you know (0.00 / 0)

something that should be in Wikipedia but isn't . . .

"Hans Christian Ørsted was the first to use the Latin-German mixed term Gedankenexperiment (lit. experiment conducted in the thoughts) circa 1812. Ørsted was also the first to use its entirely German equivalent, Gedankenversuch, in 1820"

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

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by: Deward Hastings @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 20:43:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

As i said (0.00 / 0)

The correct German term is Gedankenversuch.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

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by: Madscientist @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 22:12:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

that is not (0.00 / 0)

what you said.

The "correct" term is "gedankenexperiment" . . . that was the first, and is by far the most common, usage.  The "pure German" translation qualifies as both unoriginal and rare.

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

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by: Deward Hastings @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 22:19:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I stand corrected (0.00 / 0)

I was relying on my own experience, with what appear to be rare writings.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

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by: Madscientist @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 23:13:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

were you to cite them (0.00 / 0)

we could verify the rarity . . .

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

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by: Deward Hastings @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 23:51:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually, Deward (0.00 / 0)

A quick google tells me that both terms are in common use.  In fact, I found some instances where both terms were used in the same paper, for instance, here, where one terms is used in the title, and the other used in the following heading, and there, where the one term is used throughout except for the last paragraph, where the other is used.

This tells me that they are interchangeable.

I found Gedankenversuch in everything from technical papers in physics to a descriptive entry on a singles meeting site!

I seemed to see that Gedankenexperiment was used most often when referring to Mach, and Gedankenversuch more likely in discussions of Einstein.  But i didn't count.

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy attributed Gedankenexperiment to a writer "a hundred years before Mach," which would pre-date the wiki information.  "Ernst Mach did a great deal to popularize the idea of a Gedankenexperiment. He also popularized the term, but he was not the first to use it. That honour seems to go to Georg Lichtenberg, writing about a century earlier (Schildknecht 1990)."

The one thing i learned from all this is that after not translating for 25 years, I've lost most of what little skill I had.

Maybe I'll ask my German correspondent about this.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

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by: Madscientist @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 01:03:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Geez, MadOne... (0.00 / 0)

do you have to argue about everything?

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)

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by: mirrim @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 12:01:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Mirrim (0.00 / 0)

Here's what happened....

Despite this being just another example of Deward's stalking me last night, I actually learned something!

Isn't that the point?

Is that bad?

As for arguing about everything....you have to be kidding.

Ever read this board?  I would say that I pass by misinformation and absolute untruth more than i engage it.  I've curbed greatly my following the motto:  Rage, rage against the lying.

Here I simply learned that Gedankenversuch and Gedankenexperiment are both used in German, apparently interchageably.  But i can't help but wonder if there isn't some difference to the German reader.

You see, mirrim, I'm the curious sort.  I know, that's bad, and engaging people to satisfy curiosity is bad.

Perhaps I should be as incurious as Bush.

Would that satisfy you?

I rather think the lack of curiosity shown on this board is criminal at times.  I mean, how many times here in the last couple of months has "Global Climate Change" come up, with no references to any science, only to what politicians say? 

Sorry to rant on you.

Challenge authority.  Challenge those who set themselves up as authority.  Challenge everything.

It's a 60s kind of thing.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

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by: Madscientist @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 15:09:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sheesh... (0.00 / 0)

I should have left a smiley on that one...

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)

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by: mirrim @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 17:33:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thank you, mirrim (0.00 / 0)

my bad

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 17:48:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

My "death threat"experience is with a "letter to the editor" to the local (9.33 / 6)

newspaper on a contentious subject. It was not a flame bait type letter, it was a pragmatic letter on civil engineering issues, signed by myself, a woman. And I think those two things together, the scientific aspect presented by a woman, got  me my anonymous letter. Was it a death threat? It was more of a creepy, implied death threat, "you're missing something, your head" I could tell by the handwriting of the letter, it was from an older man. From what I knew of the opposition, I knew noone that fit my visual imagery of the sender of this letter; that is until I went to my next meeting on the subject of my letter. There I spotted my man. I had assumed before that he was neutral on the subject, just liked to give information about it. He was treated like a "pet" by the local newspaper editor. I started asking around about this guy. An older woman I knew who also worked on the same issue reported that the man in question, "Bob", whispered nasty stuff to her after a public meeting. "Bingo", I have my man I thought. I soon published another letter to the editor, and this time, "Bob" responded with a letter to the editor bashing my letter.

I think my experience corresponds with what was written by Graff at TPM, and with Walsh(?) at Salon: that women get more and nastier letters than men would on the same subject. For example, I asked other activists, mostly men, what hate mail they had gotten, and everyone said none. They were surprised I had gotten something. I don't know why this would be.

I think it needs to be recognized that just being a woman makes you more of a target for nastiness. I'm not sure minimizing it helps the issue.

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by: julymorning @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 14:24:23 PM CDT

Bullseye, so to speak (10.50 / 4)

You're correct, julymorning...engineering of all types is typically a *high salaried* male occupation; and the hostility is fierce for women who enter it.

It can be covert, or overt (someone tell on how many occasions men battle for positions as, say, administrative assistants, CNAs, or as housekeeping staff)?

Hell, no--that's "women's work" (translation:  poverty wages, sans bennies).

Again--I've never heard of one woman progressive blogger, who's making the moula; and/or is presently working on any Presidential campaigns (for the same salaries) as are males.

Name some, pls.

You're supposed to STFU, wait on your husband/significant other, tend out to the kiddos, and remain in the private domestic sphere.

..."in your place," where you belong.

It's the same on my county & local [un]Democratic party committees--I refuse to attend, donate $$, "cook," or otherwise support their systemic patriarchy (women who do so, are typically overweight people-pleasers--there's a pattern).

If that's what I wanted to do, I'd be involved w/the fucking VFW women's Auxiliary; and cook for the Baked Bean & Casserole suppahs on Sat. night (facetious retort).

Those women do all of the planning, grunt work, cooking, serving, & cleanup (out of sight, in the kitchen, etc.); but are "allowed" to be officers; nor do they receive kudos.

It's rampant--moreso in the Rethug party; however, Dems & Greens are equally as guilty of overt and covert misogyny.

...or, training a male for your job (who has zilch experience); and then witnessing him catapult above you in seniority--shit like that.

Enough, already.

Walsh is spot-on--as women in the [un]progressive blogosphere encroach upon what males perceive as their "turf," it's a threat (perceived, or real--it's nonetheless a threat).

Boxer swinging that gavel around Inhofe's temples when Al Gore was attempting to get a word in egdewise pissed off more men than I can count (it thrilled me--I still scream w/glee).

[...]

"After some back and forth between Inhofe and Gore, the new chair of the committee, Barbara Boxer of California, put a hand on Inhofe's arm and said, "I want to talk to you a minute, please." After Boxer suggested that Inhofe give Gore the time to answer his questions, Inhofe replied, "Why don't we do this: at the end, you [Gore] can have as much time as you want to answer all the questions..." Boxer then interrupted: "No, that isn't the rule. You're not making the rules. You used to when you did this," she said, holding up the chair's gavel. "Elections have consequences. So I make the rules."

Boxer spoke with appropriate authority: not angry, not loud but unmistakably firm. There was no doubt who was in charge in that room. You could almost see the steam coming out of Inhofe's ears, not only because he had been deprived of his power, but because he was deprived of it by a woman. She even held up the gavel, the symbol of that power, and practically taunted him with it. Freud couldn't have scripted it much better."

[....]

I can't stand Billary; however the backlash against her as a woman in power is also horrific.

My only thought (after decades of being a feminist) is that you continue to plow through w/your head to the grindstone; and fuck anyone who attempts to stop you.

Women can be jealous, as they're too dormat-oriented to take the heat or risk disapproval (or fears of 'being alone'--a spinster, if you will); and most males (overt or covert) are threatened by strong assertive women; as it's a perceived threat to their already insecure sense of socially constructed "manliness."

Blogs are the new 'media,' if you will (BBB); and I think that

Walsh is spot-on.

[...]

"It's not news to anyone that misogyny is alive and well on the Web; but what we're reckoning with now is both the number and the ferocity of the men who seem committed to silencing strong female voices in this medium. The Sierra debacle has prompted concerned bloggers, both female and male, to stop and consider the totality of its sheer pervasiveness. Walsh describes her moment of epiphany:"

[....]

I'm sick and tired of all of it...in 2007???

I don't fuckin' think so, folks.

Turn Maine Blue, vs. Purple

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by: mainefem @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 19:12:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Bullseye, so to speak (0.00 / 0)

You're correct, julymorning...engineering of all types is typically a *high salaried* male occupation; and the hostility is fierce for women who enter it.

It can be covert, or overt (someone tell on how many occasions men battle for positions as, say, administrative assistants, CNAs, or as housekeeping staff)?

Hell, no--that's "women's work" (translation:  poverty wages, sans bennies).

Again--I've never heard of one woman progressive blogger, who's making the moula; and/or is presently working on any Presidential campaigns (for the same salaries) as are males.

Name some, pls.

You're supposed to STFU, wait on your husband/significant other, tend out to the kiddos, and remain in the private domestic sphere.

..."in your place," where you belong.

It's the same on my county & local [un]Democratic party committees--I refuse to attend, donate $$, "cook," or otherwise support their systemic patriarchy (women who do so, are typically overweight people-pleasers--there's a pattern).

If that's what I wanted to do, I'd be involved w/the fucking VFW women's Auxiliary; and cook for the Baked Bean & Casserole suppahs on Sat. night (facetious retort).

Those women do all of the planning, grunt work, cooking, serving, & cleanup (out of sight, in the kitchen, etc.); but are "allowed" to be officers; nor do they receive kudos.

It's rampant--moreso in the Rethug party; however, Dems & Greens are equally as guilty of overt and covert misogyny.

...or, training a male for your job (who has zilch experience); and then witnessing him catapult above you in seniority--shit like that.

Enough, already.

Walsh is spot-on--as women in the [un]progressive blogosphere encroach upon what males perceive as their "turf," it's a threat (perceived, or real--it's nonetheless a threat).

Boxer swinging that gavel around Inhofe's temples when Al Gore was attempting to get a word in egdewise pissed off more men than I can count (it thrilled me--I still scream w/glee).

[...]

"After some back and forth between Inhofe and Gore, the new chair of the committee, Barbara Boxer of California, put a hand on Inhofe's arm and said, "I want to talk to you a minute, please." After Boxer suggested that Inhofe give Gore the time to answer his questions, Inhofe replied, "Why don't we do this: at the end, you [Gore] can have as much time as you want to answer all the questions..." Boxer then interrupted: "No, that isn't the rule. You're not making the rules. You used to when you did this," she said, holding up the chair's gavel. "Elections have consequences. So I make the rules."

Boxer spoke with appropriate authority: not angry, not loud but unmistakably firm. There was no doubt who was in charge in that room. You could almost see the steam coming out of Inhofe's ears, not only because he had been deprived of his power, but because he was deprived of it by a woman. She even held up the gavel, the symbol of that power, and practically taunted him with it. Freud couldn't have scripted it much better."

[....]

I can't stand Billary; however the backlash against her as a woman in power is also horrific.

My only thought (after decades of being a feminist) is that you continue to plow through w/your head to the grindstone; and fuck anyone who attempts to stop you.

Women can be jealous, as they're too dormat-oriented to take the heat or risk disapproval (or fears of 'being alone'--a spinster, if you will); and most males (overt or covert) are threatened by strong assertive women; as it's a perceived threat to their already insecure sense of socially constructed "manliness."

Blogs are the new 'media,' if you will (BBB); and I think that

Walsh is spot-on.

[...]

"It's not news to anyone that misogyny is alive and well on the Web; but what we're reckoning with now is both the number and the ferocity of the men who seem committed to silencing strong female voices in this medium. The Sierra debacle has prompted concerned bloggers, both female and male, to stop and consider the totality of its sheer pervasiveness. Walsh describes her moment of epiphany:"

[....]

I'm sick and tired of all of it...in 2007???

I don't fuckin' think so, folks.

Turn Maine Blue, vs. Purple

---

by: mainefem @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 19:21:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Markos, women and misogyny (9.88 / 8)

This is a comment I made on the same diary on dailykos in response to a man who said men want to fix it and if they can't fix it they tend to avoid it, how utterly convenient, would be that women could do the bloodyass same.

With the incidence of violence against women in this country, a woman being the victim of domestic violence every nine seconds, one out of every three women will be raped in their lifetime, 96 women killed everyday by an their partner, the same stats that have been firmly in place for deacades, it's absolutely imperative men start speaking up.

With stats like the ones above, it seems highly unlikely that most men don't know a man who batters or assaults women.  In another thread in another diary one man stated that the blacks had started the civil rights movement and made great strides, that women, alone, should do the same thing.

We can't do it alone, it's not just us, none of this would matter one whit if men didn't use violence, of all sorts, against us.  We need, in fact we demand, you step up and to the plate, it's not of our making, and it cannot be us, alone, that puts an end to it.

The words spoken by Markos have been defended by some, some say he was tired, a new father, he's grumpy, UTTER BULLSHIT.  He made a statement that will stand for all time because we all know he will not apologize.

And how do we know that?  Because he never apologizes for the things he says to and about women, he lets atrocious, misogynistic things to be said to women here and he never says a word, he bans those with conspiracy theories and yet he allows the most vitriolic and heinous things to be said to women without a word of condemnation.

It matters because words matter and because this is the most visited blog, a blog that purports itself to be 'liberal' and 'progressive.'  He says all the time, it's 'people powered politics' but denies the right to be safe from vitriol  , for the women who grit their teeth and wait for the next attack to come.

This blog has lost many, many strong women's voices for one reason, Markos and the language he condones.  This is the latest in a long line, it's hurtful and dangerous, but I guess being grumpy is enough to say, give him a break.

A precedent has been set, Markos has not felt any consequences because there have been none that matter to him. 

Words that are essentially hate speech lead to hate crimes.  Every 2 1/2 minutes a woman will report a rape today, 96 women will be murdered by their intimate partner today, 9600 women will be beaten.  It starts with words, words that go unchallenged, words that are heard by too many who stand in silence, it's time for you and all men to make your voices heard, loudly enough to be heard over the screams and pleadings of women to stop.  Make it stop, we can't do it alone.

Some also say that Markos isn't a misogynist and ask for evidence in words said that he is.  It's debatable for some what he said during and right after the pie fight.  If not misogynistic then certainly strongly anti-women.  It was around that time when I first started saying Markos is dangerous to liberals and to women.

Dangerous to liberals because he is clearly not a liberal and he isn't politically smart or savvy, he makes grotesque mistakes and misspeaks too often to be held up as the beacon of liberalism or being a progressive.

Dangerous to women because he goes out of his way to demean our causes, our issues, our rights, he says things that are hurtful, and never apologizes, he allows rampant misogyny to take place on his site, he has many rules but not one on how women can be treated or not treated, spoken to or not spoken to, degraded or not degraded.  With the traffic he gets to send the message out that it doesn't matter how women are treated is fuckingass dangerous.

Dangerous because new generations of men take their cue from people like Markos and generations of men who have been misogynists for years get patted on the back and high fived, and the words lead to violence and the cycle continues because of men like Markos.

Some have told me to lighten up about Markos, that he's a nice guy, that he'll eventually come around, that he has a daughter now, what utter fuckingass BULLSHIT.

Women have to wait for Markos to fuckingass grow up and have faith that he'll see the light?  Not good enough, not good enough by a long shot. 

What he said to and about Kathy Sierra is beyond the pale and it's only one example of the deep seeded misogynistic view he has about women.  By using the words that he does, he condones the violence or at least, the message of violence against women. 

And his site and his words are part of the escalation of violence against women. 

I will not die an unlived life. Fuck em, I will not live in fear, I will live out loud and on the record.  

Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) 1-800-787-3224 (TTY)  

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by: caliberal @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 14:27:18 PM CDT

It's not debatable (7.50 / 4)

Some also say that Markos isn't a misogynist and ask for evidence in words said that he is.  It's debatable for some what he said during and right after the pie fight.  If not misogynistic then certainly strongly anti-women.

Those "some" would be Kos' asskissers, most of them fellow travellers in misogyny, who hope to curry favour with the boyking by inserting their noses between his buttocks.

You can print and paste a copy of Markos Moulitsas' photograph next to the word "misogynist" in the dictionary as a definition.  If there was any doubt of his misogyny after he said that a woman's right to control her body was not a "core value" of the Democratic Party and in the wake of his arrogant dismissal of both women's and men's concerns about the blatant sexism of the "pie fight" ad, Mr. Moulitsas' latest ill-informed rant against Kathy Sierra provides proof beyond all doubt.

misogynist
  n : a misanthrope who dislikes women in particular [syn: woman hater]

That's Kos, alright.


Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 14:55:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree with this (0.00 / 0)

Cali, did you see my response diary to your comment of a few days ago?

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

---

by: Nonpartisan @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 16:54:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No I didn't see it NP (0.00 / 0)

Can you give me a link?

Thanks sweetheart. 

I will not die an unlived life. Fuck em, I will not live in fear, I will live out loud and on the record.  

Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) 1-800-787-3224 (TTY)  

---

by: caliberal @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 17:35:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Here ya go (11.00 / 1)

link

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

---

by: Nonpartisan @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 17:42:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

When you speak, I sit up and listen (9.33 / 3)

In a few comments on the subject yesterday I was being charitable to Markos and said that he merely had "a blind spot." You reminded me that his failures on women's issues and on women themselves are much more systematic and frequent, and I immediately became much more critical of him.

So I wanted to thank you for that. There are only a few people in this world who can turn me around with a word, people I think are so damn bright and insightful that when they point something out I stop what I'm doing to pay close attention to what they're pointing me to. You're one of them. You rock.

---

by: eugene @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 18:06:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thank you, eugene, that means a lot n/t (0.00 / 0)

I will not die an unlived life. Fuck em, I will not live in fear, I will live out loud and on the record.  

Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) 1-800-787-3224 (TTY)  

---

by: caliberal @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 23:36:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

He's not a misogynist (8.50 / 2)

The word has a definition. And he does not meet it.

But "If not misogynistic then certainly strongly anti-women.  It was around that time when I first started saying Markos is dangerous to liberals and to women."

Clueless and not helpful, even harmful on importnat gender issues? Yes.

Dangerous to think of him as of the Left and liberal? Absolutely. But he never claimed to be. He calls himself a Democrat. I call him a CONSERVATIVE Democrat.

And I believe in a big Tent Democratic Party.

The problem remains, it is not what Markos calls himself and is, but what folks want him to be.

He and his site are not liberal, hell I am not liberal and I am to the Left of the site. Me! That tells you something about Kos and daily kos.

But there is nothing wrong with that imo. The problem is when they are defined as the LEft when they clearly are not.

---

by: Armando @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 18:50:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Armando, I believe everything you've written (8.83 / 6)

Especially the bit about Kos being a CONSERVATIVE Democrat.

I also agree that the Democratic Party is envisioned as a "big tent" party.  However, my problem with Kos is that he has disinvited a lot of traditional members of the Democratic Party to get the hell out of the tent, specifically:

*Environmentalists ("treehuggers")
*Feminists (sanctimonious women's studies group types)
*Peace activists ("dirty hippies")

Not only that, but I specifically recall that when we had the massive street demonstrations in the United States last spring to protest so-called "immigration reform", Kos just shrugged his shoulders.  He doesn't like street activists, either.

Kos has also resolutely denigrated calls for a massive investigation of electoral fraud, lumping the evidence of this very real problem in with the wacky 9/11 conspiracy theories.

This is the short version of why I don't think DailyKos is a good meeting place for political progressives, and without progressives, it's NOT a "big tent" site. 

No, I am NOT asking Kos to be a liberal, I am asking him to show respect for liberal/progressive values and causes.  Kos has been disrespectful towards them and gone out of his way to insult people who hold those values at the very centre of their political being.

I cannot agree with you that Kos is not a misogynist.  My reading of his words not only in this instance but in many others, is that Moulitsas is most definitely a misogynist who denigrates women.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 21:21:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I can't disagree with what you write (7.50 / 2)

---

by: Armando @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 21:33:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Except the last part (3.00 / 1)

---

by: Armando @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 23:58:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If not a flat-out misogynist (9.50 / 6)

at the very least, he denies that anything he considers "women's concerns" have any valid place in the political discussion. (Ditto stolen elections, but that's another essay for another day.)

That denial that there's "anything wrong" is just as damaging as flat-out, expressed hate.

It's the blog-equivalent of patting us on the head and saying, "Don't worry your pretty little heads about it. Tend to your real concerns...like making me some coffee."

It trivializes our concerns, denies that they have any validity or importance.

No, it's not as obvious as bruises and broken bones. But it's demeaning, and deadly to the soul and spirit.

And no, I haven't seen any sign that Markos gets that.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)

---

by: mirrim @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 22:20:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Armando, you and I will never agree on Markos (9.00 / 5)

And my problem goes way beyond whether he's liberal or an avowed Libertarian, I get it where he stands politically, it's the discounting everyone who doesn't fall within his parameters of politics that I take exception to. 

I also find troubling his laziness in the historical record of the Democratic Party, his disdain for generations past, his disenfranchisement of whole groups of people and his ego that tells him he's politically savvy when he's clearly got so much to learn, it's disquieting at best.

My greatest, by far, complaint, and that is such a mild word to use, is that he is the founder of the largest so called 'left leaning' blog and he doesn't stand up for women, in fact he says horrific things to and about women, Kathy Sierra being the latest.

So I don't see it as his Imus moment that MAY someday come, I truly believe it will get worse and never get better because I don't think he has it in him to feel more kindly towards women.

It's not just something, I don't know, that he does now and then, his words show a deep seeded resentment towards women, a need to belittle us, to cast us aside, and when he doesn't say one word about how women are treated on a blog that gets hundreds of thousands, even millions, of hits everyday, it makes a huge statement, to let those things stand with nary a word from him, it's dangerous Armando, in my eyes, it's dangerous.

It's like telling the new generations of men that it's acceptable and letting the men who have been misogynistic for years get a free pass.

Things have got to change if the very real violence against women in this country is going to change, it has to start somewhere Armando, and the most viewed political blog would be a great place but it will not be so because Markos will not make it so.

It's really reprehensible, IMO, it would be so easy for him to say something different to Kathy Sierra but he doesn't have it in his heart or in his attitude to do so, things that are said off the top of a person's head are all too often exactly the way they feel, I believe that is the truth of how Markos feels about women.

I will not die an unlived life. Fuck em, I will not live in fear, I will live out loud and on the record.  

Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) 1-800-787-3224 (TTY)  

---

by: caliberal @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 00:27:22 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

It would be great if Daily Kos was better on gender issues (6.00 / 1)

It is not and it will not be. We have to deal with that. It will not change.

Look, there are feminists there, even on the FP. But there are no people there who, depending on your  point of view, either don't want to take on the issue or are afraid to or donl;t agree with us.

Not everyone cares to be the target of attacks. I never cared, whether it was the more progressive position, such as on Lawrence Summers, or the perceived more conservative positiob, li9ke on Judy Miller or Kelo.

It is a rah rah Dem site and no controversial issues are discussed. They just do not want to.

And that is their right. I can not and will not condemn them for that.

But we agree more than you think. You wrote:

"And my problem goes way beyond whether he's liberal or an avowed Libertarian, I get it where he stands politically, it's the discounting everyone who doesn't fall within his parameters of politics that I take exception to."

This is true. He does do that. But so do I. 

"I also find troubling his laziness in the historical record of the Democratic Party, his disdain for generations past, his disenfranchisement of whole groups of people and his ego that tells him he's politically savvy when he's clearly got so much to learn, it's disquieting at best."

Disenfranchisement is not the word you meant I think. Disregard perhaps?

"My greatest, by far, complaint, and that is such a mild word to use, is that he is the founder of the largest so called 'left leaning' blog and he doesn't stand up for women, in fact he says horrific things to and about women, Kathy Sierra being the latest."

He has said awful things. He does not stand up on gender issues. But he let me do it. So clearly he just does not care. It is not a question of being hostile. To be honest, don't you wonder about the lack of interest from others who can write about it at daily kos? 

Again, I accept him as he is as apolitcal ally. Not on gender issues. But not an enemy. If he was an enemy, he would never have let me write what I wrote.

And yes, I am still friends with him, despite the bad advice he gets.

---

by: Armando @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 01:23:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The problem is not (0.00 / 0)

the bad advice he gets.

It's the bad advice that he takes.

And why he takes it.

And about those FP "feminists" . . . (that's the straight line . . . you get the laughs when you name 'em)

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

---

by: Deward Hastings @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 02:03:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I, for one, appreciate Armando's honesty (8.75 / 4)

After the side-stepping, spinning, and outright lying that takes place on DailyKos (not to mention the ever popular Let's Pretend There's No Problem And It'll All Be Gone By The Time I Open My Eyes strategy), at least Armando has told us that not only is DailyKos ignoring "gender issues", it's never going to.

Never.

Think about that.

That means that DailyKos is never going to discuss issues that affect over half the population of the United States. 

But really, "gender issues"* or "women's issues" affect ALL of us--not just those of us who are female.  That's because we all have to live together in the society that we make, and whatever affects women affects me.  How can something that touches on the lives of my mother, my sisters, my nieces, my friends, NOT affect me?

I, for one, am not willing to voluntarily contribute material to a blog whose owner ignores the rights of half the people walking this planet, as if they don't matter.  Armando says that Kos isn't hostile towards women; it's only that women and their concerns don't matter to him--women are, in a word, invisible to Mr. Moulitsas.

Invisibility or hostility, those are your choices.  Either way, it's not a pretty picture.

I, for one, will not contribute my efforts to a blog whose owner is profiting from the unpaid work of thousands of people, including many talented women writers, and yet dismisses their concerns as if they don't exist.  Kos reminds me of a certain President who dismissed millions of anti-war protestors--his citizens, his own people--as a mere "focus group".  We didn't matter to that President any more than women matter to Kos. 

I think it's time to make Kos sit up and take notice.  Hm, what do do?  He seems to notice money.  Writing to all of his advertisers and sharing our concerns with them might be a first step...or just not posting anything on DailyKos and see how Kos likes an empty blog with no diaries. 

Kos is famous for telling people to get gone if they don't like the way he runs his blog.  There's an old Chinese proverb:  Be careful what you wish for.

*To me, "gender issues" includes not only women but the gay community, but that's my own definition.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 02:35:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Revision of the first paragraph (0.00 / 0)

After the side-stepping, spinning, and outright lying that takes place on DailyKos (not to mention the ever popular Let's Pretend There's No Problem And It'll All Be Gone By The Time I Open My Eyes strategy), at least Armando has told us that not only is DailyKos ignoring "gender issues", it's never going to discuss them.

Sorry about that.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 02:55:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The lack of support (0.00 / 0)

for women and women's issues, and, equally, the dismissal of any idea which smacks of progressivism, are the main reason most of us are here and not there in the first place.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)

---

by: mirrim @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 11:23:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I understand that (0.00 / 0)

I respect that.

I stayed and would be there now if I had not been banned because of the petty personal vendettas of some of his inner circle.

I thought I could do more good using the platform.

---

by: Armando @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 11:28:51 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

A few words from the Curmudgeon (9.38 / 8)

First, misogyny is both rampant and (mostly) unchallenged both online and in the so-called "real world".  American society often devalues women, and the blogs--which are often male-dominated--are no exception.  Misogyny is not confined to one social class nor ethnic group, but cuts across the boundaries of society.  You might say that demeaning women is one of the unifying principles of American society.

Second, there are women who are misogynistic and accept the worst stereotypes of their own gender as true.  I have a female employee who has told me that she didn't want to transfer into another job because all of her co-workers would be women, and "women are impossible to work with because they're so gossipy and backstabbing."  That doesn't make misogyny any more acceptable, but it does tell us that we have a formidable task in changing a society where devaluing and demeaning women's intelligence and character is so commonplace that many people--both men and women--don't even question it.

Third, this is the first I'd heard that Kos called Kathy Sierra a lying "crying blogger", but the remark does not surprise me in the least.  Markos Moulitsas long ago proved in his response to the objections over the "pie fight" ad on his blog that he is a misogynist who constantly demeans and devalues women.  Quite simply put, the man is an asshole and an embarrassment to the male gender. 

Fourth, we are all guilty, at one time or another, of prejudice.  I've had people assume a lot of things about me because I'm a heterosexual, middle-aged white man, only some of which is true, but I've also been guilty of assuming things about other people based on gender, ethnicity, or race.  The key to fighting prejudice is not to deny that you have it, but to seek it out in yourself and challenge it, and to have the strength to accept when other people challenge it in you.

Unfortunately, if you are asking Markos Moulitsas to engage in soul-searching and self-reflection, you are asking the wrong person.  The man has the intellectual depth of a wading pool, and long ago showed that his guiding principle in life is accumulating money, power, and influence (and yes, that's a bad thing if it's your sole motivation in life).

Kathy Sierra DID receive hateful comments and credible threats on her life.  The best retort to Kos' insulting, demeaning dismissal of the seriousness of the threats against Kathy Sierra was this one:

  Oh fuck this shit. (102+ / 0-)

She was the victim of death, rape, and assault threats, which were a small part of a grotesque campaign of online harassment that should turn the stomach of any decent human being.

Hers was not a "gripe" about "tough words."  It was a legitimate fear of violence.

The willingness of others to dismiss what happened to her - and what happens to a lot of women bloggers, apparently - is disgusting.

This isn't about speech.  It's about harassment.  We're progressives - we should know the fucking difference.

"Be angry!" Ephesians 4:26 | Activate ActBlue in Georgia!

by Drew on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:26:39 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Thank you, Drew, whoever you are.  I can't improve on that reply, so I won't even try.

Ok, that was more than a FEW words.  Sorry about that, but I had a lot on my mind on this subject.

Question for Mr. Markos Moulitsas:  His wife has a blog, which he sponsors.  If Mrs. Moulitsas was subjected to the threats directed at Kathy Sierra, would Kos breezily tell her to grow a thicker skin?

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 14:46:46 PM CDT

febrile....heh (0.00 / 0)

good word, gotta write that one down....

carry on ladies, I think I'll just read.....

"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

---

by: durrati @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 14:48:43 PM CDT

What a pity (10.67 / 6)

Markos has come to represent progressive bloggers et al.  That's like saying Joe Lieberman collectively represents the views and opinions of all Democrats.  So I am not surprised he dismissed Kathy Sierra and ridiculed her quite reasonable fears.  I am glad that Chris Clarke and other marquee male bloggers leapt to her defense, however.  It's a damn shame that that should be necessary - but it is.  Women as a whole are routinely dismissed as `hysterical' - no matter what the subject.  This especially rings true as regards threats and violence.  Think about this - it takes male inclusion for anyone to take violence against women seriously.  THAT'S what everyone has been missing about Don Imus' remarks.  His casual dismissal of those women, followed by a clueless attempt to pass it off as `humor' only underlies the misogyny and hatred omnipresent in every facet of society.  He pushed some buttons - and we reacted.  You know - girls are taught from the get-go to consider all men as possible attackers.  Really.  It's a wonder we have any truck with men at all considering how wary we all are.  Every man walking down the street towards you is a possible attacker - and you size him up as such.  What is he capable of?  How can I escape?  Can I use my purse as a weapon?  It's automatic - something you just do if you're female.  Why do you think every woman goes out to her car carrying her keys wrapped through her fingers as a weapon?  To put some mans eye out should he attack.  And before some of you pooh-pooh this as unnecessary or extreme - try asking the women in your life what they think.  You will find they walk through life in permanent paramilitary mode.  We always have to be prepared; and those of us who are survivors of rape look upon men with a more jaundiced eye than most.  So Markos should shut the fuck up about Kathy Sierra.  He has no idea what she's going through - none at all. 

Deux ex Machina

---

by: The Fat Lady Sings @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 17:01:15 PM CDT

No, I believe you (9.00 / 3)

...try asking the women in your life what they think.  You will find they walk through life in permanent paramilitary mode.  We always have to be prepared; and those of us who are survivors of rape look upon men with a more jaundiced eye than most.

I think only men who have been in prison for an extended period of time, subjected to the daily threat of rape by other males, could truly understand the fear that women have to live with on a daily basis.  The thousand calculations:  Is it OK to walk down this alley?  Past those guys?  At this time of the day or night?  Wearing this?  And what are my other options?

Men just don't have to think like that.  You're right, a lot of guys don't get it, but maybe that's because they don't LISTEN to their wives, girlfriends, daughters, sisters, aunts, and mothers.  The women in their lives WILL tell them what it's like if they would only LISTEN.

I gave you an "11" for your comment, Fat Lady.  Truly superb!

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 17:06:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You Go Girl! (0.00 / 0)

Just so you know, I quoted you on my blog. You really fucking nailed it.

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

---

by: Curmudgette @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 23:40:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Has Kos "jumped the shark"? (9.00 / 1)

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 17:12:31 PM CDT

Jesus said it best... (0.00 / 0)

....try being nice to others, because you want them to be nice to you.

By the way, that works for assholes of the female persuasion, too.

---

by: actor212 @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 17:44:37 PM CDT

That's actually the Golden Rule (0.00 / 0)

And it was developed before Christianity.  It appears in works of Confucius and in the ancient Indian text the Mahabharata about five hundred years before Christ purportedly walked the earth.  A version of it also appears in the Suttas of the Buddha...again, about 500 hundreds before Mister Jesus.

However, the Golden Rule, aka the Ethic of Reciprocity, has its critics.  For one, it requires a saintly tolerance and patience (that I and many others don't possess) when others do NOT do unto you as you would have done unto them--in other words, what do you do when somebody burns down your house and murders your family?  You wouldn't have done that to them, but they did it to you.  What does the Golden Rule say about that?

I know, I know, turn the other cheek...but once again, many of us are just not saints.  If we were, we wouldn't need police or lawyers.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 17:51:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Your own words give the lie to your commentary... (0.00 / 0)

For one, it requires a saintly tolerance and patience (that I and many others don't possess) when others do NOT do unto you as you would have done unto them

Who said anything about not reacting to how someone treats you, first?

All I'm saying is, other things being equal, if you're nice to someone, they're usually nice back to you.

And if they're a jerk, you move away from them.

It's really pretty simple.

---

by: actor212 @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:53:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

How does that apply to life or death situations? (0.00 / 0)

I'm perfectly nice to President X and the people of his country, but they decide that the President of my nation is harboring terrorists and President X's military bombs my village, killing my entire family.

How can I move away from that situation?

The Golden Rule might work in everyday social interaction, but not so well for the life-or-death stuff.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 13:13:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dude.... (0.00 / 0)

....we're talking about sex and gender relations.

Admit I had a point and move on. Don't try to make this about some niggling disagreement off topic.

---

by: actor212 @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 15:51:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dude, don't tell me what to do (6.00 / 1)

If you want to drop out of the discussion, feel free.

But please do refrain from telling me what to write, or what's important for me to argue about.  I'll make up my own mind about that.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 16:12:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dude... (0.00 / 0)

...then kindly refrain from trying to put your words in my mouth.

I'm not your date, so don't try to roofie me...

---

by: actor212 @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 18:47:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Didn't realize this was posted here too (9.60 / 5)

I come here so infrequently these days.

I had a few comments in reply to the diary, supporting what Clarke had said. I had a lot more in DD/LV's diary as well.

I think Markos is coming close to having an Imus moment. Meaning, at this rate, he is going to say something that is going to really hurt a lot of women, and given his repeated injuries to them before, there will be no slack cut for him when he does.

I also think that there are a whole lot of men who have made a virtue over the last 30 years of seeing any feminism, any attempt by women to stand up to harassment, as just some example of a woman trying to hate on men. As I said to one fuckwit today who was essentially saying such a thing, he was just being defensive, and therefore sad and pathetic.

I recall this way back in fall 2005 during a series of diaries at dKos when women shared their stories of sexual assault. It was an empowering moment, but there was a small and vocal contingent of men who thought it was an attack on them. It made them feel defensive, and as far as they're concerned, anything that makes a man feel defensive is the worst thing in the world, even worse than a woman being assaulted or threatened with assault.

So much of 20th century American history is about insecure men that it stuns me. I have my own insecurities but they're not about my masculinity. I don't see how helping provide for women's full equality and safety and inclusion in our society is any threat to me. Instead I see it as a source of strength, as something desirable. If it means I need to be self-critical at times and responsible for my actions, well, isn't that what liberalism is all about?

---

by: eugene @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 18:17:24 PM CDT

Imus moment (6.00 / 1)

Well, that seems a bit harsh, "nappy head hos" after 15 years of the functional equivalent?

Naw, you overstate the case I think.

---

by: Armando @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 18:44:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Coming close to" (8.50 / 2)

I don't think this counts as one, but, I worry. His reaction to a previous situation where he said something really bad about women and feminism was a partial apology and then to carry on as before. So long as he doesn't believe he's got a problem - and I now think he does, to whatever extent - I think he's going to careen down a pretty bad path.

I keep rereading his comments about Kathy Sierra, and wow, they're really quite bad. Imus bad? Not yet, no. But totally indefensible, and troubling.

---

by: eugene @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 20:22:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Careful... (8.50 / 2)

I also think that there are a whole lot of men who have made a virtue over the last 30 years of seeing any feminism, any attempt by women to stand up to harassment, as just some example of a woman trying to hate on men. As I said to one fuckwit today who was essentially saying such a thing, he was just being defensive, and therefore sad and pathetic.

...

So much of 20th century American history is about insecure men that it stuns me. I have my own insecurities but they're not about my masculinity. I don't see how helping provide for women's full equality and safety and inclusion in our society is any threat to me. Instead I see it as a source of strength, as something desirable. If it means I need to be self-critical at times and responsible for my actions, well, isn't that what liberalism is all about?

I largely agree with your post, but I think you may be edging towards being part of the problem not the solution with this...

I think that diary was largely about a man attempting to express and explain his defensiveness emotional insecurity over the issue (as opposed to a merely defensive response). That's a bridge much further than most guys are ever going to cross. But, I suspect if progress is going to be made it's a bridge that's going to need to be crossed by a hella lotta guys...

Certainly, it was clumsy, ugly and fumbling, kinda like watching a baby take its first tottering steps, but I wonder what gender codings you're unwittingly buying into by viewing an expression of insecurity as sad and pathetic vs. your own manly total lack of insecurity in your masculinity... One would almost think you were telling him to "be a man" about it.

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by: kraant @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 19:10:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

going to? (9.33 / 3)

nah, we're several years past his "imus moment," or series of same, if we understand "imus moment" to mean something broader than overt ugly racism/sexism, a sort of uninmtentional ill-thought out response that betrays a wordview repugnant to many of his readers.

the problem is, the response to his attacks on a host of different people, always couched in terms of "electability and pragmatism," led to their leaving the conmversation, so that the community actually gradually became more accepting of that kind of shit, as it both purged dissenters (directly or indirectly by bugging them to the point of throwing their hands up) and attracted like-minded folks.

i believe that you could post an imus transcript, verbatim, and change the authorship to a well-known kossack, and the responses would only run 50% against, at best.

and those who fired back about it would get the "purity troll" treatment.

that being said, i'm actually rather surprised at the surprise at markos' response this time around. anger i get, but surprise? at this date?

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

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by: wu ming @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 22:58:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What's febrile mean? (0.00 / 0)

I got the clueless and STFU.

For the record, Markos fucked up in not seeing the gender issues, but he always does on that doesn't he?

He's right that blogger codes of conduct are a joke as a remedy though.

And he is not a misogynist, thank the writer for rejecting that approach.

Jessica did not.

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by: Armando @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 18:43:35 PM CDT

febrile... (0.00 / 0)

Fevered... In this case in the sense of say having a fevered imagination I suspect...

From latin febris (fever)

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by: kraant @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 19:16:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Don't be so damn lazy, Armando (6.00 / 1)

They have everything on the Internets, nowadays.

Even dictionaries :)

http://dictionary.re...

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

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by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 21:23:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's like that Peggy Lee song (8.00 / 1)

"Febrile"

Never know how much I love you, never know how much I care
When you put your arms around me, I get so febrile that it's hard to bear
You get me febrile - when you kiss me, febrile when you hold me tight
Febrile - in the the morning, febrile all through the night
You get me febrile

I'd go on, but I'm afraid of a copyright infringement lawsuit or just a damn good thrashing by Peggy Lee's grandchildren.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

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by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 02:58:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Didn't Al Gore say (0.00 / 0)

that the earth has a febrile?

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

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by: Madscientist @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 15:10:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This Thread Is Why I Come to This Site (10.33 / 3)

Here one may find actual conversation on important topics.  I find that I learn from the comments as well as the original posts.

Until very recently, I thought I was the only one who didn't find the dkos site particularly liberal.  I've learned that isn't true.  I've been looking for place where progressives gather.  And this site is more than just an amen corner.  It is a place where thought and discussion and sharing knowledge go on all the time.  Thanks for some eye opening posts in this thread fellow MLW mavens.

Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of injustice, to undo the thongs of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,and bring the homeless poor into your house;

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by: Isaiah58:1-12 @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 20:10:22 PM CDT

I don't care if DailyKos is "liberal" (9.00 / 4)

I'm willing to converse who people who identify as "moderates" and even "conservatives" if they will do so in a respectful manner.

It's the disrespect that Kos and many of his lieutenants show towards progressive/liberal values, and towards the people who hold those values, that deeply troubles me.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

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by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 21:25:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

hehs (0.00 / 0)

I view as a smaller subject model of whats is happening in society as a whole, and the same mistakes keep happening. Its  part of human nature and sadly it will doom the species.

I'm a misanthrope, and i never put much faith in people to "do the right thing" that did not somehow involve some kind of benefit to them personally.

Viewed thru that lens im not surprised at the outcomes and its just a matter of time before it all implodes.. matter of fact its starting already and it will take a lot of people with it and once again its another few steps backwards. The last time this country had and "progress" was a generation ago.. and all of that is being systematicly destroyed.

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by: PTK Bear @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:55:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Excellent Essay (11.00 / 1)

All I can add are two anecdotes:

1. During some recent late night cable surfing I came across, and watched (almost) in its entirety, an old (how old?) NBC/Dateline piece being rebroadcast on MSNBC concerning a woman who was raped at a UVA frathouse back in 1984.

The rapist left school within a few weeks of the rape; the woman continued, and graduated, though the trauma has echoed hugely throughout her life.

The rapist contacted her through the mail in late 2005 in his attempt to make amends. The unsolicited email was a second severe trauma to her, and she began an email correspondence. After several weeks he finally used the word "rape." Prior to that, he had obsfucated with terms like "the incident," "the harm I did to you," etc.

As a result of her subsequent actions, he was indicted for rape (no statute of limitation for felonies in VA), and tried. I didn't watch through to the end to learn if he was convicted.

Long story short - no one but the victim can fully appreciate the gravity of this crime, though it's incumbent upon all of us to try; and to avoid, at all costs, any attempts to reinterpret, or otherwise minimize what that gravity should be.

That's what Markos reflexively does in these matters, and what comments like some of those by Armando do.

2. In the opening sequence to an episode of Six Feet Under (the segment where, in each show, we see someone die), we witness three or four guys who, in what they see as a harmless prank, stalk and verbally intimidate a young woman, a friend of theirs, who is walking alone late one night.

The woman becomes so fearful that she runs out into the street and is killed by an oncoming car.

They thought they were kidding, that their actions were just all in good fun. They had no idea what it must so obviously have felt otherwise to the young woman. They killed her.

Long story short - see above.

"...psychopaths have little difficulty infiltrating the domains of...politics, law enforcement, (and) government." Dr. Robert Hare

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by: RubDMC @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 10:15:04 AM CDT

Excuse me? (11.00 / 1)

What comments of mine have anything to do with a rapist or what Markos wrote? This is outrageous of you.

It is the comon practice to include my name in any smear as if I am not  a real person. Please STOP IT.

I am the victim of your smear now.

How easy it is for some of you to condemn words without taking responsibility for your own. I deeply resent what you just wrote.

Outrageous of you. Will you retract your smear of me?

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by: Armando @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 13:59:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Read my comment again... (11.00 / 1)

...and be sure to take a moment to appreciate its full context (I've emphasized some of it to help you do do).

...no one but the victim can fully appreciate the gravity of this crime, though it's incumbent upon all of us to try; and to avoid, at all costs, any attempts to reinterpret, or otherwise minimize what that gravity should be.

That's what Markos reflexively does in these matters, and what comments like some of those by Armando do.

I think that some of your comments here serve to let Kos off the hook, regarding Kathy Sierra in this instance, and gender matters in general.

While you note his ongoing inability (or unwillingness) to confront gender issues, in general and in specific situations, you further comment to the effect that, well, at least he let (or lets) you do it, so, that's something anyway, right?

Your comment reinterprets, or otherwise minimizes the gravity of the matter, namely that Kos blows off things that are widely acknowledged not only as being important in the context of progressive politics, but are matters of fundamemntal fairness and human dignity.

That's my opinion, anyway.

But to call my opionion a smear? That's your opinion, and in my opinion I think you're being very thin-skinned here.

"...psychopaths have little difficulty infiltrating the domains of...politics, law enforcement, (and) government." Dr. Robert Hare

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by: RubDMC @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 15:48:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So disagreeing with you (0.00 / 0)

throw me in with Markos?

Seriously, that is outrageous.

My comments accept what is and dfescribe how I dealt with it.

Where were you when I was getting flamed to fucking hell for criticizing Larry Summers?

Where were you swhen I was getting flamed to hell about choice and other gender issues?

Seriously, where the fuck were you? Were you ENABLING those people?

I would never had said so.

Your explanation is worse.

I swear to God, some folks think THEY can say anyhting and it is ok. And the same people are quick to judge everyone else.

You are truly out of line with your comments.

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by: Armando @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 18:14:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't know about "some folks." (11.00 / 1)

You're switching between the second and third person. Please just stick with one and it'll be easier for me to understand what you're actually trying to say.

Yeah, it seems to me that parts of your comments include an acceptance of what is regarding Kos' response to this latest matter that is, on one level, a gender issue; and that parts describe your own actions and attitudes regarding such matters.

Good for you.

But, like I said, you also let him off the hook in a manner that is similar to the kinds of enabling behaviors that can be an unhelpful part of the alcoholic dynamic. To me, your general outspokedness just draws that much more attention to the enabling aspects of your comments. It's like you can't resist making an excuse for him, or something.

As for you taking hits on Summers, etc. - once again, good for you for speaking to the issue. As for me, I just wasn't in those conversations.

If you wanna stretch that into enabling on my part, well, have at it though, for the record, that's a ridiculous position.

Y'know, my noting earlier that I think you're being thin-skinned on this is actually as good an example as any of how insidious the whole matter of minimizing, dismissing, and otherwise inappropriately interpreting someone else's point of view is.

That's what I fault Kos for.

My other point is simply that I think some of what you say lets him get away with it. If that's some kind of problem for you, well...deal.

"...psychopaths have little difficulty infiltrating the domains of...politics, law enforcement, (and) government." Dr. Robert Hare

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by: RubDMC @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 21:11:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Kos Has Responded to Criticisms (10.00 / 2)

This is not an excerpt, but the totality of his response:

I don't disagree with anything that Lindsey wrote. I disagreed with using a bloggers threats as an excuse to foist upon us all a "Blogger Code of Conduct".

That's what I was saying. 1) There are assholes that will 2) email stupid shit to any public figure (which includes bloggers, but 3) that won't be stopped by any blogger code of conduct.

You see, stupid asshole psycho threatening emailers don't care about codes of conduct. That's all.

http://www.dailykos....

The threats were posted on her blog.  Photoshopped pictures of Kathy Sierra in a noose.  Extremely graphic, sick descriptions of how some of these guys wanted to rape, mutilate, and torture her BEFORE they killed her.

Kos' non-apology apology, non-explanation explanation, is more insulting than his original post.

I didn't think it would be possible for him to become more offensive, but hey, Kos has a way of surprising me in that regard.

He just doesn't get it and he never will.

Steven D, as I've already written, any apology by Kos (and this is NOT an apology by any definition of the word) would be self-serving public relations, not heartfelt.  There's too much damning evidence that not only Kos himself but the atmosphere of his blog is misogynistic.

Of course psychos don't care about a "code of conduct", aka "the law".  Nobody's arguing about that, are they?  What they are arguing about is that Kos:

1. Doesn't believe that Kathy Sierra actually got "death threats" (his quote marks, not mine) and lumped her into the "whining crying" group of journalists and bloggers;

2. Said that even if Kathy Sierra DID receive threats, she needs toughen up or stop blogging about "controversial topics" (I didn't know user interfaces for software was as controversial as politics);

3. Did not take the time to educate himself about the simple facts of the case, despite having claimed to do so.  The threats to Ms. Sierra were posted online, are being investigated with due seriousness by the police, and are of such a graphic and sick nature as to frighten any reasonable person, male or female, out of his or her wits.

Do we need to send Kos a copy of "Death Threats for Dummies" so that he'll understand that crimes have been committed?  It's a crime to make a terroristic threat in person or online, and that's what has been done here.

One of Kathy Sierra's stalkers posted her home address and her Social Security number online.  That's a far cry from an email from some random refugee from the loony bin.

Kos.  Just.  Does not.  GET IT.

And he never will.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

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by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 12:30:31 PM CDT