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Memo to DKos: Time to End the Blogosphere's Stoning

by: liberalamerican

Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 20:40:08 PM PDT



(I missed this when first posted; and in case anyone else did, it's simply too good to be missed, which is why I'm re-promoting it. - promoted by Maryscott O'Connor)




lottery

Markos Moulitsas Zuniga once again finds himself in hot water. Aside from its questionable policy of making a sizeable income from writers who receive no pay for their work, his blog DKos has always had about it the creepiness of Shirley Jackson's famous 1948 short story The Lottery, in which a seemingly benign community periodically gathers to stone someone to death. The story begins:


The morning of June 27th was clear and sunny, with the fresh warmth of a full-summer day; the flowers were blossoming profusely and the grass was richly green.




liberalamerican :: Memo to DKos: Time to End the Blogosphere's Stoning




The Kos community also lives on public stonings. Like some NASCAR fans who flock to the races hoping for a crash, one of the perverse attractions of the Kos site has always been to see who will next face a public stoning. Some diarists almost seem to relish throwing that first stone. These "stonings" have periodically caused troubles for DKos, but only within the very narrow blog community.

However, as everyone in blogdom knows, not long ago Kos went another step beyond symbolic stonings -- he conducted a purge. In essence it became a mass stoning, but not of his own people but those who were listed on his blogroll. It is instructive that after this stoning, the blogosphere largely behaved like Jackson's community.

A few mavericks led by one Bush Kangaroo expressed some indignation and protest at this, but most blogs -- even some of the protestors -- still cross-posted items from DKos, continued posting on his site and/or listed the site on their blogrolls. As Kos hoped, the affair largely blew over with little impact on his site, but unfortunately had an impact on some of those he purged.

It did not take long for Kos again to find himself in trouble over his bullying and his somewhat skewed perception he IS blogdom. Once again the story spread all over the net. A tech blogger named Kathy Sierra received hate mail, some of it with explicit death threats that scared her enough she felt a need to call the police and cancel public speaking arrangements. Currently she posts the following at her site:


As for the future of this blog, I know I cannot just return to business as usual -- whatever absurd reasons have led to this much hatred for me (and for what I write here) will continue, so there is no reason to think the same things wouldn't happen again... and probably soon. That includes anything that raises (or maintains) my visibility, so I will not be doing speaking engagements -- especially at public events.

The incident ignited bloggers like gasoline on a dry prairie. Suddenly all the purges and troll ratings and nastiness became very scary. People all over the blogosphere rushed to defend Ms Sierra. The incident may have cost Ms. Sierra dearly, but it finally moved bloggers to do something I have been calling for since the beginnings of this blog: a code of conduct for bloggers.

It is the most important and positive development on the web in quite awhile. Blogger Tim O'Reilly wrote the first draft so I will let him explain:


I was quoted in a BBC article a few days ago and a San Francisco Chronicle article on Thursday calling for a "Blogger's Code of Conduct" in response to the firestorm that has arisen as a result of Kathy Sierra's revelation that she's been targeted by a series of increasingly violent and disturbing anonymous comments on her blog and on a series of weblogs that appeared to have been created for the purpose of celebrating cyber-bullying.

O'Reilly's code begins:


Take responsibility not just for your own words, but for the comments you allow on your blog.

This was enough to send Kos over the edge. He began his post by ridiculing the code, calling it "stupid." But what else could someone who lives by NOT following the code say? Then he went after Sierra, impugning her honesty and throwing in a few choice epithets such as "crying."

The "crying " crack in particular lit a fuse under feminist bloggers and should, like Don Imus' remarks light a fuse under all of us. Many bloggers have gone on to open a door not unlike C. Vivian Stringer opened when Don Imus insulted her and the Rutgers women's basketball team. They detailed the ugly realities faced by women writing on the Net. Melissa McEwan did her usual through job of uncovering these facts. No stranger to attacks on female bloggers (McEwan endured a right wing hate campaign after it was announced she would work with the Edwards campaign), she wrote:


When it comes to harassers targeting people online, there's no equality of the sexes: Simply having a recognizably female user name makes one far more likely to receive malicious messages online. So common are online threats made against women that cyberstalking has been incorporated into Violence Against Women legislation, and a 2001 Department of Justice report to Congress on Stalking and Domestic Violence made clear the issue must be taken seriously, even when it does not meet the criminal standard for stalking.

What people forget is that this is not the first time Kos has blown off women. By now Kos hopes you have forgotten the 2005 mess he got himself with the "Gilligan's Island" parody ad he ran for TBS in 2005. That prompted a storm of protest not unlike the current one.

Kos answered his critics with his usual arrogance:


Apparently, having two women throw pies at each other, wrestle each other in a sexy, lesbianic manner, then having water splashed on their ample, fake bosoms is degrading to women. Or something like that.

Whatever. Feel free to be offended. I find such humorless, knee-jerk reactions, to be tedious at best, sanctimonious and arrogant at worst. I don't care for such sanctimony from Joe Lieberman, I don't care for it from anyone else. Some people find such content offensive. Some people find it arousing. Some people find it funny. To each his or her own.

Melissa McEwan didn't like that answer either:


Asking why the most influential liberal blogger is running an ad promoting something that is generally anathema to liberal women is not the same as being a culture-vulture like Joe Lieberman. There's a big difference between seeking to ban content, and questioning whether that content is in alignment with the objectives of those who profit from it. This distinction seems patently clear to me, but apparently it was easier for Kos to assume to sanctimonious and arrogant tone of which he was accusing women of having in order to scold them for gettin' uppity, rather than address the actual issue -- whether he had chosen to either overtly or covertly condone the exploitation of women.

The outrage over Kos' remarks resulted in the founding of the blog Women Kossacks, which is still hanging in there two years after the protest. But DKos weathered the storm and many who had blasted him were sucking up to him after memories faded.

As for Kos himself, he learned the wrong lesson from that one and he may learn the wrong one from this one. The controversy over the ad INCREASED traffic to his blog. My guess is that the Sierra controversy has done the same. Could there be method to this madness? To spell it out -- does Kos like to use sexism and misogyny to stir up controversy and increase traffic to his blog?

I don't normally publish words from Kos, but the language of the 1995 post is troubling. Notice the phrase "ample, fake bosoms." It could come from a porn site. Or the even more bizarre "sexy, lesbianic manner." What is one to make of that? I find this extremely discomforting, especially in a blog that is supposed to be about political ideas. What goes on in the back regions of his strange mind?

So now we come to the controversy that has occupied this blog for most of the week -- Kos' editing the title of MSOC's post. Apparently you can't use the word "fuck" on his site, even though our illustrious vice president used it on the floor of the United States Senate. That in MSOC's case the word was not merely an idle expletive, but central to the entire message of the post seemed too subtle for Kos to grasp.

But as the evidence continues to come forward about the unevenness of the censorship, the troubling question about sexism at DKos again enters the picture. Kos apparently likes women who "wrestle each other in a sexy, lesbianic manner," but not who use four-letter words.

Despite this, Kos continues to prosper. The undercurrent of many comments on Kos is that a lot of bloggers are afraid of him and his Kossacks because they wield power and can threaten you with the blog equivalent of a pogrom. Lord Acton had it right when he said:


Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

As I have said many times, "It's about values." Those bloggers who continue to support DKos explicitly support those values. As long as you list, crosspost or otherwise support his site you are part of the problem, not the solution. Will the same media sources who give Kos excessive coverage see fit to treat him like Imus the next time he decides to deride women? Will his advertisers turn off the spigots that feed him? Kos lives off his ads. Perhaps bloggers, especially female bloggers, ought to direct their outrage at those sponsors just as they did with Imus.

In Shirley Jackson's story when someone announces a nearby village is thinking of ending the lottery, an old man says:


Next thing you know, they'll be wanting to go back to living in caves, nobody work any more, live hat way for a while. Used to be a saying about 'Lottery in June, corn be heavy soon.' First thing you know, we'd all be eating stewed chickweed and acorns. There's always been a lottery.

Maybe one reason Jackson's story is considered one a classic is that she captured a side of human nature that lies just below the surface, waiting for the right demons to summon it. Curiously, Kathy Sierra wrote about this in a post on her site before the controversy began:


Can any of us honestly say we haven't experienced emotional contagion? Even if we ourselves haven't felt our energy drain from being around a perpetually negative person, we've watched it happen to someone we care about. We've noticed a change in ourselves or our loved ones based on who we/they spend time with. We've all known at least one person who really did seem able to "light up the room with their smile," or another who could "kill the mood" without saying a word. We've all found ourselves drawn to some people and not others, based on how we felt around them, in ways we weren't able to articulate.

It is both an eerie and instructive post. Both she and Shirley Jackson warn us of the demon Sierra calls "emotional contagion" that lies behind the stonings. We ought to listen.




Tags: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , (All Tags)
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Why (3.27 / 11)
are you trying to destroy DailyKos?

Doesn't its usefulness outweigh its imperfections?

Nothing is perfect and much of what you have said is rather one sided, designed to magnify those imperfections and make a case rather than expose the truth.

You don't mention that many of the feminists made considerably worse comments in the pie fight than Kos ever did.

Liberal?  Not.


Best wishes


For a guy who leaves semi-naked women on FP (7.80 / 5)
To be sanctimonious about FUCK....

What is two sided is his hypocrisy.

And Sierra WAS NOT THE FIRST.

I left in 2005 when he clapped and cheered a gang of "stoners" publishing a fellow dem work phone and e-mail on his blog.

I knew then he and his blog had no code of conduct.


[ Parent ]
You (4.00 / 1)
Might want to check what position I took on that before you try and tell me anything.

It seems that you are "projecting" sides here which don't exist.  I would prefer to keep this to a civil discussion but looking at the following posts, there doesn't seem to be much civility available.

Best wishes


[ Parent ]
It's usefulness is to defend the (8.20 / 5)
status quo.

That is not a good thing.

It is time for change, truth and accountability.


[ Parent ]
You (4.50 / 4)
do know that you are talking about a website right?

Funny stuff.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
If DK is insignificant to you, (7.67 / 3)
why do you bother to defend it?

We do agree that the web site is now a festering caldron whose purpose is only to generate a living for its owners. It's also possible that it was never more than that, and those who ever believed otherwise were duped from the get-go. 

But because so many saw it as something else, a place where pooled information could impact positive change, the realization that it is a charade causes the anger of any betrayal.

Why you feel the need to defend a place which you believe is meaningless at every level is an interesting statement about you. The reason for those who trusted it to wish to expose it for what it is at least makes sense, but you position is idiotic.


[ Parent ]
Dkos (6.20 / 5)
is a website that allows people to post, read and discuss various issues of the day.

Many would argue that it is indeed, right this very minute, impacting positive change with its pooled information.

And I am bemused by the raging, simplistic thinking I see by so many who attempt to characterize that site as being any one thing.

You speak as if 120,000 users (more than likely 80,000 or so who are still active) are one organism with singleminded intent.

I'm not defending Dkos as much as I'm attacking the positions of people who would ascribe their own problems to a website.



(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
Those who would argue "that (7.00 / 7)
right at this very minute, [DK]is impacting postive change" are either liars or are bamboozled.

That's the value of this type of commentary, it reveals DK as nothing more than a rigid propaganda arm of the Democratic Party. The propose of the place is to insure there is no  substantive change.

It aggressively silences progressive voices because such voices are a threat to the centrist power structure which is the very livelihood of the owners of the site. Even pointing that fact out will cause swift banning for a user.


[ Parent ]
From the start (5.25 / 4)
Dkos was never a progressive blog.

Your anger at being 'betrayed' should be turned on yourself for expecting and demanding it to be something it never was.

It's like a jilted lover who puts their partner on a pedestal of their own design, and then holds that person responsible for not living up to their idea of who they were supposed to be.

For all the self-righteous talk of stalking (cyber and otherwise) these days on the blogosphere, I sure do see a lot of hate-filled and disturbing obsession coming from the same corners these days.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
In Kossak Holy Grail. (9.00 / 2)
the FAQ, he called it progressive. That's removed now, so in Kossian logic it never was.

Your characterization of the criticism of DK as "self-righteous talk of stalking" is despicable, but sadly typical of the tactics used by his defenders, both on, and now off the site.


[ Parent ]
Despicable (7.00 / 3)
If I were to go and dredge up all of the public name-calling of Markos just on this blog alone, I would have pages of hatred.

I can only guess what he gets in his personal e-mail.

But of course since Kos is so powerful, that wouldn't count would it?

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
Cyber stalking (0.00 / 0)
has nothing at all to do with the discussion here. Raising the topic in this conversaion is a red herring.

But since you brought it up, and although it is an entirely different issue, Marksos has said he's a big boy and it doesn't bother him.


[ Parent ]
Stalking (6.33 / 3)
is just a few steps past obsession.

I think more than a few people here are obsessed with both Markos and Dkos.

What, this type of slippery slope speculation doesn't work anymore when its not directed at Markos?


(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
Project much? (4.50 / 4)
Your defense of Markos and DK is adorational, not rational. You argue emotion, with no substance whatsoever. Your kind of blind faith stems from obsession.


[ Parent ]
Point to one statement (6.67 / 3)
of mine that lauds either Markos or Dkos.

Just one.


(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
I said defense, not laud (5.00 / 4)
Your vitriolic attack on his critics is a presumptive defense of him. If you have some other objective, please do share.

Regardless of your motivation, you are obsessive in your behavior toward his critics. You do understands that the type of obsession you manifest precedes or is a form of stalking, don't you?


[ Parent ]
it was too a progressive site (7.67 / 9)
kos was never progressive, but dailykos, a term that includes a large group of people at any given time... was progressive.

you are simply mistaken or interpreting how things are in principle rather than reality, and following kos' property rights as a principle to assume it is whatever kos is... but it was a progressive site, imo, in spite of kos.

-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
IMO (6.00 / 1)
Dkos wasn't more progressive at the beginning, the rest of the country was more conservative.

Much, much more.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
please (8.00 / 3)
it was far more liberal in language and what could be talked about, for one.

a lot of the more liberal people left... good riddance does not mean they were NEVER there to begin with.  much as some think

-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
people (8.00 / 2)
I'm not allowed to post there... am I not a people?

-pyrrho-

[ Parent ]
soylent green (0.00 / 0)
is people!

jon stewart sez: "when i want news, i turn to cnn...and they turn...to skippy...the bush...kangaroo!"

[ Parent ]
This is the new millennium, (0.00 / 0)
what matters now is whether it has a  passable taste with a ginger-soy sauce.

Who knew those people anyway?


[ Parent ]
uh.... (8.00 / 5)
i doubt strongly that libamerican is "trying to destroy" dailykos, and even if he/she was, i doubt strongly that his/her efforts would be effective.

my question is, why do you consider questioning, analysis and asking one for justification of one's actions vs. stated policies as the same as "destroying"?

i have long said that if a politician or a national pundit acts in some way and we take them to task for it, why can we not hold ourselves and each other in blogtopia* to the same standard?

*and yes, i coined that phrase!

ps thanks for the mention even if i got no link, libam!

for the record, i not only no longer link to dkos, i refuse to read it myself (tho, being a literally liberal editor, i don't disallow my co-bloggers to link to that site, i try not to edit my co-bloggers' content, except for strong profanity).

tho i did read his rant about the bloggers code (and subliminally against kathy sierra), so i could address his "logic" in my reponses.

jon stewart sez: "when i want news, i turn to cnn...and they turn...to skippy...the bush...kangaroo!"


[ Parent ]
Okay (0.00 / 0)
I will tell you why.

If you go and look at the diary concerned I took Kos to task for his comments.  I was reasonably savage and lengthy.

Not only am I not banned, I am still a TU.  WHile I would have prefered he replied to some of my posts, it would be incorrect to insist on that so the most important thing I would say about KOS is that he allow dissent by the bucketful - a progressive idea.

I'm not particularly happy with his macho ideas but he has contibuted much to the progressive movement een if at times he has (in my opinion) disparaged some thigns he souldn't.  He does not treat his own ideas as gospel.  This is important to me since I often disagree with him.

I see attacks on KOS as shoting your water boy.

Best wishes


[ Parent ]
I do wish you luck with that (7.50 / 4)
MSOC, pyrrho and many others here, including myself were TU's and took Kos to task many times too.

Most times he will just ignore critics. But sometimes he will go after them, personally or sending online mobs. Or maybe he just washes his hands like Pilates when online mobs go harass users at his site. The net result is the same.

I hope you don't have to experience how bad and underhanded that kind of attack feels. If you plan to stay there, my advice is to stop doing it. Stop taking Kos to task. Just shut up, lower your head and blog there. And only about the allowable topics. It will save you a world of harassment and heartache!



[ Parent ]
Ummm (0.00 / 0)
I've been on the recieving end of such behaviour and it wasn't from Kos.

Best wishes

[ Parent ]
It rarely is (6.40 / 5)
Do take care out there.

[ Parent ]
Oh Dear! (10.00 / 2)
Troll rated by Armando.

I'm surprised you forgot that pesky 2005 incident, considering months later it was your work address which ended up being published online.

I don't wish Kos any ill. I just think he is dead wrong in allowing such attacks in his blog. Bloggers need privacy otherwise only the retired or unemployed will be able to take Bush to task. You of all people should know that.

Take care.


[ Parent ]
Oddly enough (0.00 / 0)
I am convinced that a large portion of bloggers ARE in fact students, retirees and the unemployed.

It's kind of like jury duty in that, though people might find it interesting, most just don't have the time.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
Or stay at home moms (9.00 / 1)
But hubby can't afford to have his boss harassed by angry kossacks calling about what his wife is writing online.

Kos is killing his own blog with this tolerance to online blogs. Sad really, it was a great place and it's still full of great writers. He has been losing the good will of the more hotheaded left, then it will be the moderate left....

I sincerely wish I'm wrong about my doom and gloom prediction. We democrats need all the help we can get.


[ Parent ]
Keep tellin' yourself that. (9.67 / 3)
Kos rarely descends from on high to converse with the hoi polloi. He doesn't need to. He has so many lieutenants.

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

[ Parent ]
Why... (6.00 / 4)

Does this comment remind me so much of the perennial standard:

"Why do you hate America?"


--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

[ Parent ]
Because (2.33 / 3)
It is grammaticaly similar would be one reason

That you don't like either could be another.


Best wishes


[ Parent ]
can't wait to read this later (9.00 / 1)
but I'll say right off Shirley Jackson is a genius.

dry and funny as hell when she wanted to be... and very NOT when she wanted not to be.

-pyrrho-


Shirley Jackson was a member of Monty Python? (10.00 / 1)
She WAS brilliant.



Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
well... (8.00 / 3)
...some of us flit happily between here and there and lots of other places in between, and haven't yet been stoned for our pains. Just because I spend most of my online time there doesn't mean I endorse the site 100%. Then again, I'm much more of a superficial apathetic participant in this whole activist blogosphere thing, so it's easier for me not to take it personally. I've long ago accepted that my values will compromise at a given position on a given issue. Sorry, gang.

mbr + dv + woyg

Fight back! (10.00 / 6)
Maybe it's because I am from a diffrent blogging community that the Kos crowd basically ignores and and visa versa. But who gives a fuck about Kos? 

Honestly, why haven't all the so called progressive bloggers delisted his link from their blogs? Talk is cheap where I come from.

And I have noticed that some of the Kosites (or whatever the fuck you call them) have me on their blog rolls when they post. Well if what I am reading about them is true, that will be ending after this post.

BTW, I disagree with a blog code of ethics. I will not be responsible for the actions of those wo post on my blog, and I will not censor anybody. -unless there are obviously obscene pictures or some shit like that- I think that's a slippery slope that we don't want to start heading down.

We all need to grow some,(sorry about the the "grow some" comment ladies but I hope you get my point) and start fighting fire with fire. So Markos hurts your feelings with his big bad stick. Swing back at the mother fucker, and keep swinging until he feels it. 

Silence is never golden!


You should follow Yahoo's lead (9.50 / 4)
Delete/ ban any poster who posts someone else's private information online.

Because a lot of women - and men - don't like Bush but have friends and family working for the government, or live in a redneck state, or work in a place political blogging is not allowed, etc.. and can not afford to have their workplace or private life harassed by "stoners".

There is a reason Bush has been trying to end online privacy. Armando at Kos found that out. Would you like someone at your blog to be the next Armando ? Or the next Sierra ?


[ Parent ]
give it a rest (6.83 / 6)
All the posts I read calling Kos to account for his words on Kathy Sierra ridiculed the notion of a code. Most of the bloggers who called Kos to account on this have no known views on the purge.

Even if you think Big Orange is a pernicious influence, may be it is important to turn your attention to other things.

Maybe lead by exmaple, do the kind of blogging you think needs to be done. Maybe link to the blogs you think are doing good work and ignore those who you think are not doing good work.

Really, MLW is degenerating into a Get Kos blog. It just doesn't look good.


By the same token, (2.00 / 1)
if you disagree with the criticism of DK, then you should ignore it and pursue other interests. What's good for the goose and all that.

[ Parent ]
You mean a code (9.50 / 4)
that prohibits words like fuck?? or maybe that prohibits diaries refering to election theft until someone like Jhon Conyers does post one?? or maybe like election fraude in Ohio?? If you think of it he does have a code, prohibiting anything he does not like. Now, aint that stupid????????????



[ Parent ]
Fair trials for apostate Kossacks (8.33 / 3)
Like this one:



Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


Heh (0.00 / 0)
I've got Flashblock installed, so I can't even see the still image when the page loads, but I clicked the little button to see if I guessed right that it was the clip from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Yup. :)

Markos, you're fired

My Left Wing Political t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.


[ Parent ]
I agree (9.67 / 6)
I used to have dkos as my home page. After the purge this is home. And while I usually just lurk, I read more blogs since the purge. I also think kos enjoys the controversy since it increases site traffic. I rarely go back now. Anyway keep up the good work.

Any blogger who hasn't been banned already by Kos (7.38 / 13)
is a moron.

Thank you, Peeder (9.00 / 6)


As I am , then, a moron I am excluded by you from your company, censored by your contempt for me.

I suggest that those condemning Daily Kos on the particular issue of the last few days are demonstrating the extremes of their anatagonism rather than any great principle worth fighting for.

But then, I am a moron.

I have only one interest in this "debate". That is to keep Maryscott writing for the largest audience. So should you and all those interested in keeping the counter culture of the Internet together, to make it relevant and effective. At times, this is all we have.

Peace Peeder.


[ Parent ]
I'll ask you what (8.50 / 2)
anyone who complains at DK is asked ad nauseam. If you don't like what you see here, then why visit?

You love the cult of Kos, great. Others who felt invested in that place and are disappointed in what it has become see it differently. If you don't want to hear dissenting voices about that place, that desire is accomplished simply. Stay at Kos.


[ Parent ]
I come... (10.33 / 3)
...because I believe that I am a friend of Maryscott's and appreciate her work. This doesn't mean that, like all friends, I always agree with her. But we have known each other long enough to accept that this will sometimes happen.

I came here because whenever I see Maryscott upset by a reaction, I pop across because I want her to know that she has friends.

I love no cult, but you may know me better. You say "If you don't like what you see here, then why visit?". I think I simply dissented with an opinion expressed here.

You wish me to stay at Kos and the other sites.  Of course I will accept your decision as it is your site. I certainly did not intend to break any rules or get myself banned but I don't post here regularly enough to understand what its requirements on its members now are. Please accept my apologies.

There are other ways to show Maryscott my friendship.


[ Parent ]
The only person (6.00 / 1)
this site belongs to is MSOC.

No one else's opinions about who belongs here or not carry any weight.

Just saying.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
Welshman, you are, indeed, a great friend and welcome here. (8.00 / 4)

I disagree with peeder's overly broad statement, though I undertand his intent.

We CAN disagree about Markos and Daily Kos AND remain friends. This, I know, because I still have a GREAT many friends at Daily Kos -- most of whom do NOT even bother to come here. I don't hold this against them, either. Why should I? Life is too fucking short to be petty.

And Markos is really, really short.

: )

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
Well, if you're going to go *there* (8.29 / 7)
I'm going to have to pull this back out.



My Left Wing Political t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.


[ Parent ]
I'm sorry for you. (6.33 / 3)
It must be hard.

[ Parent ]
Sour grapes make for the best whine (3.67 / 3)
But of course, those fixated on all things Kos aren't bitter, they're just interested in the well being of the blogosphere.

Riggggghhhhhttttt.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
jake (8.71 / 7)
I have been involved in online communities, including for years developing software for them... for over 20 years now.

I talk about them. I analyze them, I work on software for them.

If you can only think of bitterness as a motivation, you lack imagination and that's that.  If on the other hand you can think of other reasons, then why do you not mention those?

I find dkos interesting.

There doesn't have to be any better reason even in the face of your accusations of emotionalism, broad accusations.

I feel kos is bad for politics in the same way the DLC has been, the history of which does have some beneficial moments... it's ludicrous to come up with reasons not to criticise him.

If you can dispatch any SINGLE argument with reason, by all means do so, but if all you can do is dismiss the whole topic of dkos criticism and criticism of kos, you have just a very weak generality.

Some people report on the media. You'll have to live with that.

-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
Last (0.00 / 0)
I checked, critics aren't exempt from criticism.

As to other motivation besides bitterness, let's take a poll:

How many of the vocal critics of Dkos here at MLW (and this includes those that recommend the kos-bashing comments) have been banned there?

If the number is less than 75% (and that is a conservative figure) I'd be pretty shocked.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
I'm a moron, I haven't been banned there, (8.00 / 3)
but I choose to stop going there over a year ago, when it became obvious to me that I would be banned, eventually. Maybe I'm a genius ;-)

So, I rarely chime in on this, but just to fuck with your survey numbers, kos sucks ass, and so does the site. I don't know if it's going to wither away, but I'll shed no tears, if it does.

Now we can be sure that all the complaints aren't just sour grapes, but actual dispasionate disagreement. I recommend the kos-bashing comments, because I agree with them,

Cheers!

"Truth has no time of its own. Its hour is now -- always, and indeed then most truly when it seems most unsuitable to actual circumstances."


[ Parent ]
I think you're a genius (5.00 / 1)



(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

[ Parent ]
Same here (7.00 / 1)
Was never banned, just left when someone else was targeted by a online mob and Kos cheered. That was in 2005, way before anyone dared to speak ill of Kos.

I didn't either. He uses his users as tools to write for free and promote his site ? I do the same now. Whenever I have something I wish to promote I write a diary on his site and get some free publicity.

Even then, I've only 4 or 5 diaries there since 2005.


[ Parent ]
I was banned for being critical (9.00 / 4)
you are a very illogical person at times it seems because that simply does not follow.

I was banned.

That proves I'm bitter? No, it proves kos is pettier than he used to be.

You are free to criticise even on these grounds, but I'm saying that it's a weak argument because basically you are saying so far that the problem is people care because they are angry... um... so.

If I was bitter from anger, so the fuck what?  I would have more reason to post on it than I do.

When kos bans me, it shows HE's got a problem, I never banned him, I'm not the bitter one, he was bitter.

"That pyrrho will promote diaries critical of my... my... BUSINESS PLAN?!?!"  Note, I've criticized his politics time and again, and the way he runs his site... but not the business plan!!!  So he banned me... to you, that proves I am bitter perhaps... what kos did proves my internal state.

I have always written about blogs and web sites and will no doubt continue to.

-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
i haven't been banned (0.00 / 0)
and i have been rather critical, here and at dKos, when the topic came up. for what it's worth.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

[ Parent ]
You're in on the MSOC exemption (8.50 / 2)
i.e. you're careful enough to not let them get you on a technicality, and worse, you're usually right.

Anyway thinking about this DLC analogy of pyrrho's, I figure we can have a name for the party Markos has delusions of raising and disciplining a Model Army for: The Permanent Demokratic Majority™.

Yeah the "k" thing often alludes to the klan but in this kase it's just a kos allusion. Unless you want to take it further...

Fortunately this one probably doesn't get past the beer halls.


[ Parent ]
peeder, can you answer this ? (0.00 / 0)
k, this is OT but I wasn't sure if MSOC would see it and answer. And I believe you know about the site, or at least can perhaps answer my question on deleted / lost comments on the Sat Open Thread? Thanks.

[ Parent ]
care11... (0.00 / 0)

For the time being, they are archived offline -- but they WILL be available, as soon as the SoapBlox V3 is operational.

I'm so soprry for the inconvenience -- it's just that the overload of information stored here was really slowing down the site, so we sought to temporarily fix it by archiving everything between certain older dates -- then, we found we needed access to the old essays -- so we compromised and left the essays themselves intact, but archived all the DISCUSSIONS.

But I PROMISE, they are NOT lost forever -- they're simply being stored elsewhere, inaccessible offline ONLY temporarily, until V3 is operational.

my deep apologies for the inconvenience.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
Thanks, Angel (0.00 / 0)
That's a big relief, Maryscott. Thanks so much for the prompt reply. I do now remember you mentioning somewhere about the new software and need to archive comments. I look forward to their eventual return.

As I was writing my essay, I heard the song In the Arms of an Angel playing on TV in the background. Sarah M. for a ASPCA pet adoption.  Greg really liked that song and they played it at his memorial service.


[ Parent ]
that's my understanding of it (9.00 / 2)
i decided a while ago that it would do more good not to flame out like madman did, but rather keep saying what i think, and force them to ban me (if they choose to) in a way that revealed the injustice in the process. not by courting it, but by just saying what i think in a reasonably congenial manner. if they don't ban me, then i get to keep talking with the many good people that remain over there; if they do ban me, hopefully the act itself will prove a point.

i think reputation plays a huge role in those sorts of decisions. easy to tamp down newbies, harder to do the same to known quantities.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat


[ Parent ]
You're able to produce your papers when confronted (6.00 / 1)
Plus it's a bit like them declining to send Niels Bohr to one of the camps...too high-profile.

[ Parent ]
that has been my position for these past few weeks (10.33 / 6)
i feel kos is bad for politics in the same way the dlc has been, the history of which does have some beneficial moments

but has become a stumbling block, because of its concentrated power, to the will of the constituents being carried out.

i feel that dkos, because it's perceived by civilians (non-bloggers) as "the liberal blog," is now more a detriment than not to progress, both in blogtopia and yes, i coined that phrase, and in the real world of progressive and liberal agendas.

my criticism of markos has never been about my site getting dumped, but of all sites, and by extension, diverse voices, getting dumped.

(for the record, my traffic has increased by about 20-25% since the purge.  so, jesus, big box blogs, please purge my site!  it's only good for my traffic!)

my arguments, and there are more than one, with kos have been about his position (stated or not) as the (or at least, "a") de facto leader of liberal blogtopia (y!ictp!), and therefore his often non-liberal positions which can only confuse the goal attainment of progressive agendas.

and, anybody who says markos "never claimed to be progressive" is somebody who hasn't read dkos for the past 5 years, especially in the first three thereof.

jon stewart sez: "when i want news, i turn to cnn...and they turn...to skippy...the bush...kangaroo!"


[ Parent ]
As always Peeder, (5.00 / 2)
you're right. It's become cream of wheat without suger, bland, mushy but consistent.

As for MSOC, were any other user she'd be long gone, as it is they have to edit her.

Now, why she goes back is another matter.


[ Parent ]
Oh (7.00 / 2)
Okay, well, at least that's settled then. I'll try not to drool on you.

mbr + dv + woyg

[ Parent ]
Peeder (5.50 / 2)
We have always supported each other.  Why turn on me and call me a moron?

Near in mind this "moron" agreed with your points far more than not.  So am I a moron for supporting and being friendly to you?

Best wishes


[ Parent ]
Anyone who has read me enough over the years (7.50 / 4)
knows I'm always serious and joking at the same time. If that's having it both ways, I stand counted. But the upshot is I write what I write without all that much malice, at least no malice toward the innocent.

That said, I don't understand how anyone could be an effective political blogger and willingly submit to that kind of tyranny. It's a state of pure hypocrisy. Bush is, in fact, a lot more permissive of what we do and say in America.


[ Parent ]
I pay close attention to what goes up on my blog. (8.00 / 4)
Dissenting commenter's are welcomed (I have regular readers who disagree with my opinion and feel free to tell me so).  Threats or insults are not.  Threatening comments get shunted into a file I keep in case the police need to be notified (I've received some scary shit).  Those who merely spew hate speech (fuck you, you motherfucking cunt whore bitch!) are deleted and blocked.  As for DKos - liberalamerican is right.  It has indeed become a virtual mirror of writer Shirley Jackson's imaginary community.  Public stonings are de rigueur, with everyone coming to see and pile on.  As for the troubling misogynistic tone - again, liberalamerican is right.  It always lies under the surface.  This latest flap has been very upsetting.  Ms. Sierra is dealing with serious attacks.  To minimize such real-world concerns by labeling them 'crying' repeats the Don Imus mistake.  Imus thought it was OK to verbally attack women, and in doing so marginalize them.  In point of fact - he never thought twice about it.  I'm afraid Mr. Zuniga is guilty of that same blindness.

As to why people write diaries about all this - I think it's because they are disappointed with DKos - both the person and the website.  We progressives hold ourselves to a higher standard than right-wing noise makers.  Quite simply - misogynistic bullying is wrong and should not be practiced or tolerated.  Finding one of our marquee sites rife with intolerance makes those of us who give a damn want to correct what we see as a mistake.  I'm afraid our attempts have as much effect as Don Quixote's windmill obsession. 
 

Deux ex Machina


Doesn't its usefulness outweigh its imperfections? (7.67 / 3)
That may be the question in the eyes of some who commented, but it begs the question: what IS is usefulness? Other than its size I have not heard much in support of its content. 

Second, this is not a matter of "weighing." As the post says: it's about values. What values do you believe in and what will you do to walk that talk.

The blogger's code as it currently stands is a tough issue. I suspect if I were wording the code--which is still being tweaked as we speak, I would probably leave the comments piece out mainly because stuff DOES get through before you catch it that could make you potentially liable for something.

At the same time, I DO censor comments. What have I censored: several obscene comments that in essence were come-ons for porn sites that somehow made it through all my various filters. I would think everyone else probably would have done the same. I know of a site that had to censor right wingnuts who kept trying to sabotage the site by sending comments that became a denial of service attack.

But rather than dismiss a code let's try to work towards some common standards. You can put your two cents in as I did to lobby for wording changes or adding and deleting provisions.

Backpager


I missed this when first posted. (10.00 / 1)

But it's truly excellent, and I think I'm going to have to re-promote it.

LA, you have outdone yourself. This is as concise, apt and well-written a critique and analysis of the situation as I have yet seen.

Thank you.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


Jake's Guilt... (8.71 / 7)

Tell me something, please...

Does the sheer volume of criticism of Markos Moulitsas and Daily Kos here bother you, or is it the content, or the vitriol, or what?

You seem to have taken it upon yourself to be the Defender of The Kos here at MLW -- and that's fine, I suppose. But I rarely see you ACTUALLY defend -- that is to say, back up your "defense" with argumentation. Instead, you resort to complaining about the fact that people "bash" Markos and DKos, complaining that it happens a lot, complaining that it's sickening, et cetera -- but you never really come up with any real DEFENSE.

Argue the merits, man. And I'll tell you right now, "It's his site" isn't gonna fly.

This is MY site, putatively -- but if anyone attempted to defend any of MY actions or words with that pitiful mantra, I'd not only expect him to be mocked mercilessly, I'd be first in line to do it.

See, I believe in backing up your own shit. And if you are going to be the Defender of the Kos, then back it up. Stop whining. I don't whine -- I fucking LAMBASTE. And I use actual facts and evidence -- the vitriolic namecalling and epithets and colourful metaphors are just decoration.

And please note -- when someone calls me on my actions or words, I may respond in a reflexively defensive posture AT FIRST, but INVARIABLY, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, I DO take into consideration ANY and all valid criticism, and when I determine that I am wrong and the criticism IS valid, I acknowledge it -- I apologise, I make amends, I make the appropriate retractions and I pledge to improve myself in the future. And I make fucking well sure that I DO improve myself. Sure, I fail. I'll always fail, I'll stumble, I'll backslide -- and I will be grateful when people call me on it. ALWAYS. Even if the people calling me on it are hostile and cruel -- if their criticism is valid, even if couched in vitriolic, abusive language, I WILL see past that and weigh the criticism on the merit of its substance, rather than its decoration.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: If you're going to continue to complain about the "Kos bashing" that happens around here -- and it's a valid complaint -- you'll probably get a more substantive response and discussion if you say something more substantive than "There's too much Kos bashing around here."

Because that's just a matter of taste. And when it comes to taste, well, you know what they say... To each his own. But if you truly believe there's something WRONG with the Kos bashing -- inaccurate, inappropriate, counterproductive, whatever -- then you'll have to do more than make vague statements without providing evidence of their veracity.

Because, while we're all fully capable of having a rousing discussion based on facts in evidence...  there's no accounting for taste.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


I (3.33 / 3)
tend to rebut the Kos bashng comments one at a time based on their own merits.

Last I checked it is not a requirement to be necessarily for something when pointing out the hypocrisy of those against it (and if it is, where are your plans for Iraq?).

My problem lies in the sanctimony and hypocrisy that this site is absolutely teeming with these days.

Ask yourself this Marsycott:

Do you really agree that Dkos is a useless mechanism that provides no positives whatsoever to the liberal/democratic/progressive/whatever cause, or whose negatives far outweigh the positives (and if so why do you fear losing your outlet there), or do you just encourage any and all things anti-Dkos because of your personal feelings of being slighted?

Honestly, can you separate the two anymore? 

Because you are working your way to becoming Mariscat 2.0.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
Armando? (5.50 / 4)
Hello!

Who is Jake?


[ Parent ]
Just like at Dk (0.00 / 1)
My only troll ratings are from Armando.

I'm so proud.


[ Parent ]
In response to the question: (7.00 / 3)

Of COURSE not.

Have I EVER said such a thing???

There is SO much that is good and right and hopeful about Daily Kos -- that's what MAKES me so goddamned sad and angry and bitter about how it's turning out over there. Its great promise is so quickly becoming poisoned by the bizarre, Stalinesque tendencies and policies of its owner and his lieutenants, that everythign that is and was good about it looks to be soon overcome by their overweening desire to sterilise the sirte and make it more and more palatable to a wide audience -- to the point that it will no longer be recognisable to any of its former members. Not only is it nothing like a LIBERAL blog, it's quickly losing any resemblance to a DEMOCRATIC blog -- unless your definition of "Democratic" is "Republican of old."

I'm not being glib, man. The "New Democrats" that Markos seems so enthusiastic about populating his blog and that party with are nothing but Republicans of the 70s and 80s. Andf that is a fucking TRAVESTY, a goddamned TRAGEDY.

I feel like he pulled a gigantic bait and switch. I feel LIED to. Cheated. Betrayed. And I am NOT alone in this -- not by a long shot.

And neither do I " encourage any and all things anti-Dkos because of [my] personal feelings of being slighted" -- for chrissakes, Jake, that's an ABSURD characterisation. Absolutely absurd.

First, I don't "encourage" it. I allow it. I DO it myself. If that's "encouragement," okay, then, I encourage -- but I don't see it as such. I'm not GOADING people into it -- NO ONE needs to be COAXED into posting criticism or even HATE-FILLED SCREEDS against DKos. Dude, that was going on WAY before MLW came into existence.

Tell ME something -- you think ALL this criticism and loathing and anger is utterly baseless??? Just thousands of disaffected jealous people?

Because I think THAT'S a specious stance.

And that MCat thing -- low blow, dude. Low blow. I am nowhere near as psychotic as she.

: )

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
Not surprising. (10.56 / 9)
The "New Democrats" that Markos seems so enthusiastic about populating his blog and that party with are nothing but Republicans of the 70s and 80s. Andf that is a fucking TRAVESTY, a goddamned TRAGEDY.

IIRC, Kos has been upfront in the past about being a Reagan Democrat (ugh), so is it really such a stretch to believe he would be attracted to politicians who lean towards that stance? It was the progressive label that fooled everyone. Such a nice word that turned out to mean absolutely nothing.

Instead of crashing the gate it's now "sit down, shutup, open your wallets, clap louder, rah, rah Dems" (with the occasional exception in which the hordes take up the battle cry for their knight or lady in shining armor or triangulation). No need to crash the gate when you're sitting on the other side of it.

I will concede Kos was honest about the site's purpose -- elect Dems.  It can't be helped that he never said exactly what kind of Dems he set out to elect. (Reagan Democrats?)

Members of the community have always been willing to point out that *some Dems* aren't worth fuck-all.  Lately the act of criticizing Democrats (especially in regards to their sniveling cowardice on Iraq) is now being seen by a decent majority of the active community as heresy. Thus, the uptick in stonings.

Then you have the Nannies, who have memorized the thousand and one DK rules and regulations by heart running about tsk, tsking every little misstep. They have a motherfucking quarry at their disposal.

Personal Note:  All my life I have refused to live in neighborhoods with CC&Rs - rules telling me what color curtains I can use, what type of mailbox, what height my grass can be, how many hours my trash cans can sit in my driveway. Fuck that shit. Life's messy, deal with it.

So, one neighbor's yard is full of cars he's working on, another has 20 or 50 semi-completed construction projects strewn throughout their one-acre lot, and my fucking trashcans can stay outside my gate 7 days a week. Not that I leave them there, but I can if I so desire.

That's what DK was when I joined two-plus years ago. A glorious, sometimes messy intellectual political playground with few rules. Lately it seems that the old neighborhood is going through gentrification. They need to spruce things up for...whatever reasons. We helped the Democrats win so we need to sweep out the naysayers and the profane or it will be bad for Democrats. We're a serious contender (For what? Enabling mediocrity?) now.  DK is turning into a CC&R nightmare. Except for the occasional lapses in judgment displayed by the proprietor. But hey, it his blog. (It's my blog, I can be a clueless ass if I want to.)

Just an aside: I wonder how the gentrification forces are going to reconcile the fact that Kos has, and always will slap up posts that will cast the site in a negative light. Not just with a jealous press and vicious wingers, but with the public as a whole. You know, the ones they're sprucing things up for?

Always some quandary or another. Ach, well.

Since I view everything by Google Reader these days it's quite easy for me to ignore the stupid stuff.  It's very rare for me to bother with the diaries - I link directly to my favorite diarists via their blogs or other blogs I know they frequent. I read the front page stories that interest me (becoming a rare thing) and rarely bother with reading the comments.

There are so many other great blogs picking up the news of the day, the media fuck-up of the moment, and the action item of the week. All the things I've relied on DK for so long has evaporated. Feeds rule!

The amazing, incredible, priceless benefit - 
More signal -- less noise.

It seems that when you're hooked you have difficulty distinguishing signal from noise. I know I did. By severely limiting my exposure to DK (and frankly, participation in most blogs) I've come to view signal as a fine wine and noise as warm piss in a bottle. Why would I go to places serving up warm piss when so many others are serving up fine wine?

But, you know something? I'm thisclose from not giving a flying fuck about any of it anyway. The Dems are caving in on Iraq, cowardly blue-bellied fuckers that they are.

Gonzales? I'm not holding my breath on impeachment proceedings of that bastard, and given how long and what it took for Bush to unload Rumsfeld I'm not holding my breath on him resigning or Bush asking him to resign.

The Dems will huff and puff and pretend they are blowing on Bush's cardboard model of a brick house  and come back with a pathetic, "We tried." Bullshit. You caved, you worthless (insert string of insulting profanity here).

This sums up my feelings on the bleatings of the leadership of "anti-war" party:

Meaningless, stupid words, from people without wisdom or intelligence or any skill beyond the ability to water the currency of expression.

Going Postal - Terry Pratchett

All DC is a stage and the actors are playing the audience for suckers. It seems time is running short, what with the two major parties hardly indistinguishable from each other.

Note: Nader was wrong. There are differences, it's just these days it's getting harder and harder to see them. DC thugs are thugs and most DC Dems are cowards. They'll both manage to destroy this world whether I watch them do it or not. They'll put on their little Kabuki plays and hope no one notices until election day what scumbags they truly are whether I remark upon their performances or not.

I now understand those who drop out of politics. Fuck politics. If winning means bending over for the guy who has better talking points regardless of the wishes of a majority of the electorate they can fucking kiss my ass. If they don't stand up with more than 60% of the public behind them they will never stand up. They'll put on shows to try and quell the natives but in the end they'll fuck us and themselves over. Grasping defeat from the jaws of victory should be their official motto.

I'm thinking of better ways to spend my remaining days on this planet. Watching politicians screw this country and the world over despite all the efforts to change things is becoming a tedious waste of precious time and energy.

I hereby declare that I will withdraw my criticisms if Dems step up and do not compromise with King "I will veto if you don't let me continue to play with my human toys." Pissypants.

Heh. Democrats not caving to BushCo. I crack myself up.

"As you get older, you get less willing to buy the latest version of reality." Leonard Cohen


[ Parent ]
BEAUTIFUL FUCKING COMMENT. (7.50 / 2)

mentaldebris, you are definitely born again HARD.

Jesus, dude, I had to scroll down to see who was talking, so blown away by the sheer gorgeosity and brilliance of this comment was I, a mere three sentences in!

This comment is an essay in and of itself. Truly, a work of art. Beautifully written, structured, the whole shebang -- I just cannot express adequately how strongly affected I was while reading it.

THANK you for posting this comment, THANK you. I am not exaggerating when I say, this was a life-altering experience.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
Yup (11.00 / 1)
I feel like he pulled a gigantic bait and switch.

The frequent refrain of Defenders of the Kos is that he NEVER claimed to be a progressive or liberal.

But Kos actually DID talk about "us progressives" for the first several years of DailyKos.

So we are left with some questions:

Did Kos lie to people all along about having progressive values, or did he change his mind?

I think it's the first one, simply because people don't chuck progressive values overboard just like that, and because of what we've learned about Mr. Moulitsas' background and political philososphy (such as it is) over the past few years.

Mr. Moulitas  has gone from being a Reagan Republican to a Reagan Democrat.  Not a very far distance to travel.

As for the "bait and switch", well...

I'm going to go re-read my copy of "Animal Farm" now.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
Sounds familiar (11.00 / 2)
The "bait and switch" you just mentioned kind of reminds me of the constantly shifting reasons the Bush administration has given for the war. But we're not suppose to actually notice that--at least not "out loud".

My Left Wing Political t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.

[ Parent ]
Death Of A Snake Oil Salesman (9.50 / 2)
Meet The New Boss - Same As The Old Boss...as Mr. Pete Townsend once sang...

What can you say - a rebel can never be a rebel again once he begins cutting deals with the establishment.

Judas Iscariot had his price and so did Mr. Zuniga - let that cocksucker* KOS bask in the glory of his recognition by the MSM - my TIME magazine arrived today and he was quoted in Joe Klein's column. When you lay down with whores you are yourself a whore by definition. 

Congrats Kos - you are now a made man and a total piece of shit in my book - you should be ashamed at how many people's trust that you betrayed....you coulda been a contenda but then again you shoulda been a Republican. 

It could have been a great thing until you sold out. I don't have the emotional investment to your slimy ass that a lot of the people here at MLW do that you stuck a shank into but you make me sick anyway.

Just my thirty pieces...

EE

* - admittedly a taboo word that I intend as no insult towards gay people but since it is the strongest pejorative that I can think of I had to use it for Cyber Stalin.

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


Total piece (7.00 / 1)
of shit, cocksucker, cyberStalin.

Yeah, you're not emotionally invested at all are ya Ed.

Blogs are therapist's wet dream.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
Got Me... (8.50 / 2)
Sigh....point conceded.

While not as emotionally invested as most are who have long relationships with that Judas I do have my axe to grind as well...and I would love to bury it between Stalin's shoulder blades.

I just hate hypocrites, I hate bullies and I hate frauds..KOS is all three wrapped up in  a box of shit with a bit orange bow tied around it.

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
metaphors (9.00 / 2)
i just hate hypocrites, i hate bullies and i hate frauds..kos is all three wrapped up in  a box of shit with a bit orange bow tied around it.

personally, i think my metaphor that i've been slinging around blogtopia and yes, i coined that phrase, sums markos up the best:

if huey long read the fence paiting scene from tom sawyer and started a blog, it would be the daily kos.

jon stewart sez: "when i want news, i turn to cnn...and they turn...to skippy...the bush...kangaroo!"


[ Parent ]
Jake's Guilt... (6.00 / 2)

I don't see anyone around here claiming NOT to be emotionally invested.

And once again I ask -- do you have any REAL arguments, or just fingerpointing at the people who are doing the actual arguing?

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
Uh (9.00 / 2)
read his initial comment where he states he is not emotionally invested...

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

[ Parent ]
heh (4.50 / 2)

Got me. Mea culpa.

: )

Totally skipped right over it.

bwahahaha!

Moving on... Shall we dance?



--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
I thought we already were (7.33 / 3)


(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

[ Parent ]
now that (7.00 / 2)
was actually funny.

jon stewart sez: "when i want news, i turn to cnn...and they turn...to skippy...the bush...kangaroo!"

[ Parent ]
BUT... (11.00 / 1)

tehnically, he didn't claim not to have ANY emotional investment.

He said he doesn't have the emotional investment some of US here have...

nevertheless -- you're more right than I am on this point -- trivial though it may be....



--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
If not for use of the word "cocksucker," (7.00 / 1)

I'd be applauding.

Pity, that.

Sorry. Just my opinion, and I don't denigrate you for using it -- I simply don't approve of the usage as an epithet.

I am a cocksucker.

Markos should BE so lucky. Or so talented.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
Semantics, Semantics.... (6.00 / 2)
Damn it...I hate it when I say these things...

To use it in the proper context refer to auther James Ellroy who I am paraphasing...

"sucking the poisoned cock of celebrity"

Substitute "establishment" for "celebrity" and give Mr. Zuniga a lobster bib..

EE

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
p.s. (10.00 / 1)

The REST of that comment, however, was sheer beauty.

Love to you, ed.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
The ONLY 2 sites that I have been banned from are... (10.00 / 2)
Daily KOS - TWICE

Tomdelay.com

The irony is delicious isn't it?

EE

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


DK once, Freerepublic once. (5.00 / 2)
And Armando Jake,there was not a speck's worth of difference in the reasoning between the two.

[ Parent ]
Blogosphere's Stoning Hurts the Liberal Cause (9.33 / 3)
I see a lot of people here pointing out Kos does do a good service to the Liberal cause, to the Dems, to anyone that is anti Bush.

And that is what is extremely puzzling to me about Kos behavior on Sierra's case, and 2 years before that, on another "stoning" episode. Why on earth does he allow something that hurts the liberal cause go on so rampantly on his site ?

And believe me Blogosphere's Stoning hurts us Dems immensely. All our prowess investigating Bush's misdeeds would have fallen on deaf ears, as it did countless times before, if we couldn't get some middle of the road guys to get outraged too.

Kos knows that. It is one of the reasons he has been catering to the middle more. Yet the dumb bastard lets his site become a bad High School, where no one is safe to blog or post.

Kos, I have news to you. People on air force bases and on the military can not be seen / read criticizing Bush online. Christ, their relatives can't speak ill of Bush! I have known cases personally where the soldier's CO got displeased and decided the poor soldier has used up all his quota of calls to US. Or refused to inform the soldier's whereabouts for months, just to penalize an outspoken family member.

Yet you irresponsibly let users at your site divulge personal information about people who post there. How many soldiers and their relatives will feel comfortable posting at your site, knowing their real life CO can be e-mailed by a posse of angry online Kossacks ? Just think you dumb fuck!

Same goes for government employees. People in consulting, law - like Armando - or any other job that requires a subservience to Bush, or at least a neutrality.

You dumb SOB, you yourself are killing your own site's chance of ever being used by military, government employees, and many of us who have to live in the belly of the beast.

And that's what  gets my goat since 2005. This service Kos site still does ? He himself is killing it


The Thuggery of <s>Michelle Malkin</s> ... (9.00 / 3)
Just out of curiosity, since I missed the entire Sierra controversy. Did anyone mention this front page diary ?

The Thuggery of Michelle Malkin
by georgia10
Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 08:13:32 AM PDT
Bumped by Armando.

Michelle Malkin has crossed the line.  What line? That line that separates humans with a moral core and, well, those apathetic creatures incapable of emotions like empathy or shame.  For those who haven't followed the controversy, it goes something like this:

  .... Malkin published their personal information on her website, prompting her hordes of orcish mouth-breathers to brandish their pitchforks and inundate the unsuspecting students with death threats... When the students frantically called on Malkin to remove their numbers, she posted their contact information again.

That Malkin took advantage of the naivete of what she called "anti-war thugs" and "moonbats" is not out of character for her. Malkin's sustenance is hate--without it, she wouldn't have anything to write about. She thrives on the misery and pain of others as she peddles in racism and inflammatory rhetoric. And her readers eat it up.

Let's be real, Malkin knows her audience like the back of her hand. She publishes their emails regularly on her site, she knows the type of radical people her site attracts. So when she published the contact information, she did so with a specific purposes (conspicuously absent from her post, by the way, was her request to "be polite").  To sum up Malkin's actions in two words:  sic 'em! 

So is it surprising that Malkin's minions followed her lead and harassed the SAW students with vitriol? Nope. It is surprising they sent death threats? Of course not. Because that's the type of people Malkin's work attracts: cowardly, passive-aggressive let-me-sit-at-my-computer-and-talk-tough-because-I'm-too-afraid-to-go-to-Iraq wingers who get off on sending emails describing their wet dreams of blowing the brains out of "intolerant left wing socialist fucking c**k-suckers."

After receiving death threats from these 101st Fighting Keyboarders, the SAW students politely asked Malkin to remove the contact information from her site. Malkin refused. Indeed, she republished the contact info.  And this is where her actions turn from mean-spirited to downright sick.

By reposting the contact information knowing full well she was to elicit death threats and attack, Malkin is condoning the actions of her readers. Of course, scared Michelle posts a "disclaimer,", skirting any responsibility for the actions of her attack dogs.  But if she knows the threats are coming from her readers, such a disclaimer has a wink, wink, don't do it effect.  If she truly does not condone death threats and foul language, she should oblige the SAW students and remove the information from her blog.

Malkin, who considers herself a "journalist", has blatantly violated the Code of Ethics for journalists by setting her attack dogs on these students.



oops (9.00 / 1)
Forgot to mention it, yeah. And me in the Georgia10 fan club. Crap.

mbr + dv + woyg

[ Parent ]
Lock Malkin Up In A KBR Camp (7.00 / 1)
Ms. Maladong is NO journalist although a persistent rumor has it that she MAY be an anchor baby - the red meat eating xenophobes who are her audience would go batshit over that wouldn't they?

Perhaps there is a strategic advantage in not rushing to overturn the Military Commisions Act, not closing the KBR detention facilities and not rushing to undo the Bushreich's damage to the Constitution - once the Democrats regain control of the system the police state can be used against the hate spewing demagogues, the knuckle dragging lumpen Republicans and the Rapture death cult fanatics.

Of course I'm only being sardonic but wouldn't that Vicodin quaffing lard ass Rush Limbaugh look funny in orange and stuffed into a 6 X 6 cage at Gitmo?

EE

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
Michelle Malkin's parents were here on a work visa (11.00 / 1)
Her parents are Filipino.  They were in Philadelphia on a work visa when she was born.  They entered the country legally.

And her Filipino name is "Maglalang".

Of course she's not a journalist.  Malkin's a right-wing propagandist, an Ann Coulter wannabe.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
May I Just Say (11.00 / 2)
that I'm still hanging out at the Orange Place, but find myself drawn here more and more because this is where most of the good people of the early days of DKos ended up?  My DKos habit is about done.

Can we just say that DKos did good in that it got all of you great people together in one place? And, the fact that most of you have moved on tells volumes about DKos in itself.  Its relevance is diminishing because its power was in its diarists, and the good ones are pretty much gone.  The nitpicking, stoning, bizarre policy statements, and mass bannings are indicative of Kos fine-tuning his constituency. The need for mass-appeal is over.

I see this as the same thing as tweaking a TV show's premise a couple of seasons in, when the producers know what works and what doesn't and what audience they need to appeal to to keep ratings up and advertisers happy.

That's what can happen when one's passion becomes a pure business and your livelihood depends on advertising (ie page views). It's the difference between community theatre and professional theatre. Needing a specific cashflow means artistic value (or political ideology) takes a back seat to ensuring your patrons buy their tickets.

Kos already feels he doesn't need to put any more time into DKos. It has management (which is designed to institutionalize policy and practice).  To him, it's a mature product in a maturing market.

Next step - DKos becomes last year's hula hoop, mini-skirt, and Edsel all rolled into one.

It's brutal out there


What a loa of crap (11.00 / 2)
The vote was rigged, much in the same way that those Diebold machines are rigged.

Moulitsas ranks higher than Jon Stewart in influence?

How can you be influential if nobody's heard of you?

I asked my students if they recognized the people on that list.

They thought "Markos Moulitsas" might be--might be--the dictator of Venezuela.

Markos' appearance on that list just means that his nerd flock has waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on their hands.  DHinMi probably voted 5,000 times in a row.


Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
Something I noticed... (0.00 / 0)
Is that you can rate people *down* too.

But, yeah--it's not especially shocking when someone with *this* demographic tidbit:

OCCUPATION: Founder and principle author of the blog Daily Kos

is doing well in an online poll.

My Left Wing Political t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.


[ Parent ]
He beats Oprah! (0.00 / 0)
but he only has 1500 votes. When all 100,000+ Kossaks vote, King Kos will be #1. He may then also rule the world.

Well, he'll have to enter a power sharing agreement with Bush but they'll figure it out.


[ Parent ]
Doesn't its usefulness outweigh its imperfections? Still No Answer. (11.00 / 1)
A day after I first posted this question and come back to find another 30 comments, there is still no answer. What use does DKos perform that outweighs its imperfections? and to whom? 

The people who made DKos--the diarists--are not making $$$ or talking to Time magazine. Kos is. So what is the usefulness of that? Most folks would call it a rip-off. Even Wal-Mart does better--in fact maybe that's not a bad nickname for the site--the Wal-Mart of the Left.

As for its politics, those are the prerogative of the owner of the blog. My beef with Kos and his book has always been that he is about electability not values.

People come to this site because its values are clearly defined in the manifesto and those who post here and make the site interesting for me write about values. We don't always agree, but as Renee says, we CARE.

Finally, several folks still say they go to the Kos site and list it one their blogrolls. One even managed to sneak a post and link in (clever). Kos is where he is because according to the tracking services lots of people link there. You don't have to and you get nothing in return since he won't link to you, so why do you do it? I don't get it.

 

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The best cure for Daily Kos' woes would be a (0.00 / 0)
blogosphere that has grown so strong and diverse, that DK becomes irrelevant.



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