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Winning Isn't Everything

by: Maryscott O'Connor

Tue May 08, 2007 at 17:35:20 PM PDT






... and It's Not the Only Thing, Either



I must admit, due to a confluence of painful influences, I've been rather silent online of late, at least when it comes to posting anything longer than a few paragraphs of comments in an ongoing discussion. No matter the details; the result has been a short but nonetheless searing depression mitigated not in the least by the news of the world, which continues by turns and often simultaneously dark, foreboding, depressing, infuriating and by all appearances gives one the impression, as George Carlin has oft observed, that the human race is merely "circling the drain."

Seeing this in my morning paper didn't help:


Netroots on Shaky Ground
An online liberal movement that seeks to imitate GOP tactics places too much emphasis on style over substance.
May 8, 2007

By: Jonah Goldberg

And may I just say... it is rather discomfiting and not a little nauseating to find oneself in agreement with Jonah Goldberg at 6 in the morning.




Maryscott O'Connor :: Winning Isn't Everything




IT'S IRONIC. At precisely the moment so many people think that the Republican Party and the conservative movement went off the rails, the people who hate the right the most want to copy it.

Me again, sorry. I just want to remind anyone reading this that I've been saying the same thing for years, now. Granted, I've been saying it punctuated with "motherfucking moronic" and "unbefuckinglievably amoral" -- stuff like that -- but I have been saying it. "Ironic" just doesn't cut it.


Markos Moulitsas Zuniga, the owner of the biggest lefty (sic) blog [ED: Daily Kos is NOT A LEFTY BLOG!] on the block - Daily Kos - is their standard-bearer. He prides himself on being an organizer, not an idea man. "They want to make me into the latest Jesse Jackson, but I'm not ideological at all," he told Washington Monthly magazine. "I'm just all about winning."


[ED: Emphasis is mine.]

. . .

Chait quotes from prominent netroots figure Matt Stoller's blog: "To the extent that I have a political hero, it's probably Grover Norquist, not Ralph Nader."


Excuse me but...



You DO remember Grover Norquist, right? Maybe this will jog your memory:


"I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub." (NPR)

Norquist co-authored the 1994 Contract with America. The pledge of "no new taxes" that many Republican legislators have signed was his project.

In addition to heading Americans for Tax Reform, Norquist is currently on the board of directors of the National Rifle Association and the American Conservative Union. He is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and chairman emeritus of the Islamic Institute. He was the chair of the September 2005 convention of the National Federation of Republican Assemblies.

"Cutting the government in half in one generation is both an ambitious and reasonable goal," Norquist stated in May 2000. "If we work hard we will accomplish this and more by 2025. Then the conservative movement can set a new goal. I have a recommendation: To cut government in half again by 2050."

After Bush's election to the White House in 2000, Norquist was the prime architect behind the many Bush tax-cuts

A small controversy erupted after an interview between Norquist and Terry Gross on NPR's Fresh Air program. In the interview, Grover Norquist compared the morality that allows the estate tax to that which permitted the Holocaust. When pressed, Norquist noted that this was not a direct comparison, but rather a response to what he saw as apathy against a supposed government assault on a small group of citizens. (forward.com)




In other words, Grover Norquist belongs to a very exclusive club, whose membership also includes such vermin as Karl Rove, Roger Ailes, Lee Atwater -- and, if he has his way, apparently, Matt Stoller.

Grover Norquist is the political hero of the guy who runs MyDD, a self-described Democratic blog focused on Democratic politics and politicians; the guy who set up the Liberal BlogAd Network ("Advertise Liberally!"), whose blog also belongs to the Liberal Feed Network, also known as the "Liberal Blog Network."



UPDATE:
Goldberg is quoting Jonathan Chait's article in The New Republic, titled The Left's New Machine.

For those who prefer not to have to click any link to TNR in solidarity with Markos Moulitsas's one man boycott of that publication in response to their publication last year of Jason Zengerle's article bestowing on him the status of Smoky Back Room Capo di Tuti Capi of the Left Blogosphere (or if you simply prefer not to read the Chait's entire article), here is the immediate context in which Chait included Stoller's statement:


The netroots look upon this great right-wing apparatus with unconcealed envy. Traditionally, to the extent that movements exist on the left, they have been dispersed among single-issue organizations--environmentalists, labor unions, pro-choice activists--that mobilize only when their own pet issues are on the agenda. This piecemeal structure leaves each component group fighting solo battles against a large and cohesive coalition. Also, since there are political issues that do not directly affect the single-issue groups, it leaves swaths of liberal territory unguarded.

The netroots are scornful of single-issue liberal groups--or, really, any liberals at all who are not wholly dedicated to the cause of Democratic victory. As Stoller has written on MyDD, "To the extent that I have a political hero, it's probably Grover Norquist, not Ralph Nader." The netroots' dream is of a liberal army of grassroots activists, pundits, policy wonks, and politicians all marching more or less in lockstep.

Stoller's reaction to the quote:


I guess sometimes unity makes sense from a strategic standpoint, but the lockstep idea is a bit silly.  Boingboing, Grist, and DailyKos are very different places, yet it's possible to situate all of them under this big tent.  If there is a core philosophy to what I call the 'Open Left', it's a respect for pluralism, openness and participation.  We like to hash things out.  And hashing things out tends to create a sense of community and natural discipline, since you kind of figure out where the obvious areas of agreement are and move in that direction.

Note: Stoller neither denies having named Norquist as his hero, repudiates it -- nor does he even bother explaining his reasoning when he did so. It is reasonable, then, to assume that Stoller must think there is a prima facie case to be made for idolising Grover Norquist, from the standpoint of a political strategist. Which, of course, there is -- if you possess the brand of arrogance that allows you to presume to speak for all the "netroots" when you say something like this with total sincerity:


"We don't necessarily distinguish between politics and policy, or activism and journalism, and we don't pretend that there is an above the fray and an (sic) 'in the muck.'  Most of all, we respect ideas because ideas, when implemented, have immense power. Ideas matter. Conservative ideas have affected us personally, whether it was growing up in a suburb or having no health care insurance.  And to the extent that you create ideas or appropriate ideas and organize around them, you can build a new society.  That's what the right did, which is why we respect the right."


Talk about a disconnect. But Stoller isn't an anomaly. His mindset insofar as presuming to speak for all bloggers to the left of centre and his rationale for "respecting the right" to the extent that he wishes to emulate them in any way, let alone in their strategies and tactics for organising a party and winning campaigns and policy battles for and within that Party closely resembles that of Markos Moulitsas and many other members of that rarified, dominant set of A-List bloggers in the "left blogosphere" constantly (and infuriatingly) referred to as "liberal" by the corporate, mainstream media.

Not that it's an accident; Moulitsas and Stoller deliberately misled and misdirected their audiences as they started out on their blogging endeavours, the better to reel in all those alienated, aimless, angry, directionless liberals in America who felt all alone and craved connection with others who felt like them. To the liberal dying of a thirst, for a reality-based community, Daily KOS and MyDD must have seemed a heavenly oasis in an endless stretch of neoconservative blather. If you'll pardon the mixed metaphors, the Big Boys of Blogging happily fanned the flamed of their audience's desire, using code words like "progressive" and "people powered politics" and "take back the Democratic Party."

But surely, had there been any fine print to read and anyone had taken the time to peruse it, a significant number of the idealistic bloggers who flocked to community blogs like DKos and MyDD might have taken great offense at being told that the best way to fight the Republicans is to become the Republicans. That ideology isn't important, winning is.

Of course, in more recent times, having become safely entrenched as the "Establishment" of the "left blogosphere," Moulitsas and Stoller (and, presumably, their fellow Big Boys of Blogging, most notably Jerome Armstrong, John Aravosis, and, perhaps to a lesser extent, Atrios) obviously feel slightly freer to let down their guard and show their true feelings about just exactly what "Crashing the Gate" really means to them.

Apparently it means "You gotta beat them at their own game." Or, "Become that which you purport to loathe in order to defeat and supplant them."

What happened to the goal of dismantling the DLC? I never saw the parenthetical "...and then take their jobs and become the DLC ourselves." Did "Take back the Party" really mean "Take back the Party and change absolutely nothing?"

Goldberg continues:


In one sense, this is just plain bizarre, akin to a pro-life, right wing church lady naming Gloria Steinem as her political hero. From another perspective, it makes some sense. The "New Right" of the 1970s and 1980s took many organizational pointers from liberals. So it's only fair that liberals return the favor. And besides, if you believe liberal propaganda about the awesome power of the Republican noise machine, why not become a bizarro-world Norquist who uses his powers for good instead of evil?

Yeah, except the powers of Norquist & Company aren't good for anything but evil.

Or, as Goldberg puts it:


Well, one answer is that it's a stupid idea. Chait is a thoughtful critic of the netroots, but he shares with them a common false assumption: that conservative victories are the result of PR campaigns, partisan discipline and organizational guile. For the better part of a decade now, liberals have been trying to re-create the media of the American right - talk radio, think tanks, etc. - without spending much effort trying to replicate the message. Democratic gurus continue to claim that if they just repackage their old ideas in pretty wrapping, they'll win all day long.

The conservative movement was a response to generations of growing statism at home and abroad. From the Progressive era to the Great Society, government seemed to be expanding in tandem with the threat of communism. The conservative project was first and foremost an intellectual one because, as Hoover Institution fellow Thomas Sowell has written, it takes an ideology to beat an ideology.

BINGO

Sorry, boys, but you cannot play at politics the way you play fucking Parcheesi. Sure, you may win a few here and there, but if the idea is to take a Party and make it into a winning machine, there is only one way to do that (one way, that is, if you want to retain any last SHRED of your fucking SOUL):

You have to BELIEVE in something. You have to have principles, values, morals, standards, beliefs -- in other words, pal, you gotta get yourself an IDEOLOGY.

Now, the conservative -- or the neoconservative, or the paleoconservative, or the fascist, for that matter -- ideologies happen to be a perfect fit for their tactics, their strategies, their "winning formula." But I can guaran-goddamn-tee you, there is no way that a Democratic Party of progressives, liberals or even moderates can adopt the Republican Party playbook as its own and avoid becoming a clone of that Republican Party.

Think of it this way: Say a demure, sweet, shy, quiet, chaste, church-going young woman finds herself in a bind and in desperation joins the ranks of the whores on Sunset Boulevard, gradually dressing, talking and acting like her fellow whores. Despite her initial promise to herself that she would still be herself, that this was only temporary, that she would keep her private life separate from this... eventually she stops going to church. Eventually she stops wearing her old sweater sets when she's not "working." Eventually, her former qualities of shyness and chastity, demure sweetness -- well, it's hard to maintain her chastity when she's giving $25 blowjobs parked in strangers' cars in dark parking lots; and after a few weeks of losing tricks to the louder, more aggressive girls on her block, she ditches the demure act and gets down and dirty with a quality "Hey baby, wanna date" sales pitch of her own.

Eventually, she becomes a whore. It's inevitable. If she's lucky, she won't become so depressed and humiliated that the appeal of dulling the pain with drugs pulls her into an even darker loss of self.

If the only thing that matters to those who would become the new leaders of the Democratic Party is winning, then that Democratic Party is lost. Because if winning is the only thing that matters, then everything is negotiable, everything is expendable, anything can be compromised or abandoned. We've seen it too often already; in just the past six years, we've seen genuine liberal, progressive candidates scorned, mocked, abandoned and betrayed not only by the leadership of the Democratic Party but by the so-called "Netroots" and its leadership; one case in particular coming to mind would be that of Chuck Pennacchio versus Bob Casey in the Pennsylvania Democratic primary.

Moulitsas's rationale for supporting Casey can be summed up in these words of his from one of his many "Why can't women see the bigger picture and stop dragging us all down with their "single-issue" abortion whining" posts, this one titled Building the Broader Movement:


"As Reid's votes on virulently anti-choice (and anti-labor, anti-environment) judges shows, it's better to have a Democrat than a Republican hold any seat in Congress.

. . .

... the entire movement benefits from having a friendly party in control."

Funny he should mention Harry Reid's votes on anti-choice judges while rationalising his support of the anti-choice Bob Casey; he posted his little anti-single-issue screed to chastise NARAL and a few other "myopic single-issue" groups who had dared to condemn the Democratic leadership's choice to back Casey instead of Pennacchio in the primary -- because Bob Casey had endorsed the anti-choice Bush nominee to the Supreme Court, Samuel Alito.

Bob Casey endorsed very same Samuel Alito who recently joined anti-choice Chief Justice Roberts and anti-choice Justices Scalia, Thomas and Kennedy in voting to uphold a law banning a medical procedure called "Intact Dilation & Extraction," a particularly rare and always medically necessary form of abortion. This decision should be widely regarded as a first step toward the dismantling, at the federal level, of the rights of people to make their own medical decisions without government interference.

In other words, either the would-be leaders of the "netroots" movement to take over the Democratic Party A) have no concern whatsoever about the civil and human rights of all American citizens (for that is what this supposed "single issue is really about), since it is obvious that to dismantle the rights of citizens to make their own medical decisions without government interference is to severely curtail their civil and human rights at a most basic and intrusive level... or B) they simply cannot understand the situation.

So we're talking about a consortium of aspiring Democratic leaders, movers and shakers who can rightly be called either callous, ambitious to a fault, lacking in any moral centre and willing to do anything to win, even at the expense of the values and principles they once purported to hold dear...

Or we're talking about a consortium of vastly unqualified aspirants to positions they do not understand, with responsibilities they could never possibly fulfill, whose actions would have consequences they might never comprehend -- a consortium of little boys playing at being Big Boys, who for some reason think politics is "sexy," who treat it like a game instead of a life and death vocation-- a consortium, in other words, of people who have no business being anywhere near the word "leader," let alone somehow stumbling past the gates and falling into the role of "Party Leadership."

Let's see what Goldberg has to say, in closing:


The netroots crowd seems mostly determined to skip the serious argument part and to settle on the idea that liberals should simply all believe the same thing, first and foremost on the Iraq war. And as important as Iraq is right now, it is hardly a serious substitute for the intellectual catalyst of World War II and the Cold War. Netrooters may have a terrible shock in store for them when the war is over and their reason for existence is too.

. . .

Meanwhile, the supposedly all-powerful Republican noise machine's greatest victory is allegedly the George W. Bush presidency - which he barely won the first time. And, recall, Bush had to campaign as a "compassionate" conservative in order to get as far as he did. If we're so good at PR, why did conservatism need the adjective?

Netrooters want it both ways. The GOP is evil and intellectually bankrupt because it doesn't care about anything but winning. But it would be the greatest thing in the world if Democrats could be just like Republicans!

That doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me.


Well, I disagree with Goldberg's view of the left blogosphere's existence being all about Iraq. I've come to know a lot of bloggers over the past three years and while Iraq is certainly the most pressing issue on the minds of most liberals, it sure as hell isn't the only one. Perhaps Goldberg, like so many in the infuriating Borg that is corporate mainstream media, thinks the Big Boys, like that media paradigm, are representative of the entire left blogosphere in their approach, their opinion and their goals.

If that is what he thinks, he is sorely mistaken; in fact, the Big Boys of Blogging are in the minority in their belief that winning is everything, that there are no "deal breakers" when it comes to the world of political negotiation and compromise. Contrary to that bizarrely amoral and, yes, Republican way of thinking, most of us out here in Left Blogistan are not willing to sell our souls for a seat at the table. Sure, we want to win; but if winning means giving up those principles and values for which we are fighting -- well, that doesn't sound much like winning, period.




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Winning Isn't Everything | 156 comments
While researching this piece, (10.95 / 22)

  I found this article, "Inside the Cult of Kos" by Ana Marie Cox, formerly known as Wonkette, written for Time.  Standard stuff, an attempt at analyzing Markos's popularity, etc…

Until the final paragraph:


Moulitsas does know he has become the face of the netroots, though he insists that it's a position he has inherited only by default. The left lacks many telegenic spokespeople, he says. "It's the difference between the Fox News anchors - you know, blond, put-together - and our people. It's like, 'You know, lady, put on a bra. Would it kill you to put on a bra?'"

I have no further comment.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


and he, I am assuming, thinks (7.71 / 7)
that HE is telegenic?!

oh, lololol

Kos, could ya stuff a bra in yer mouth, would it kill you, I mean, like, would it?

jeeebus.

Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
So does this mean-- (7.56 / 9)
--that Markos has become the face of the netroots because of his willingness to put on a bra?

Apparently I've underestimated him. Way to "take one for the team" Markos!

My Left Wing Political t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.


[ Parent ]
Wow! (8.50 / 4)
Maryscott, I don't give out praise like cotton candy but this was a masterpiece of both style and substance.  Beautiful!

[ Parent ]
mydd is much more lefty than Kos (4.00 / 2)
Mydd didn't ignore the NY-City transit strike, unlike Kos, and it went all out to defend those female bloggers against "The Catholic League." unlike Kos.  It supported Dean for chairman, not "New Democrat Rosenberg, which was Kos's favored candidate.  I see no evidence of any embrace of the DLC, or "the New Democrats agenda"  It has criticized Obama repeatedly for his embrace of the Hamilton project, whereas Kos has been silent. 

The fact that they don't attack Kos, isn't an indication they approve of him.  It looks like David Sirota is close to getting banned just like you were.  I am pretty sure when Stoller references Norquist he means toughness, not right wing, or assholish.  I think mydd, of all the blogs is the least likely to get personal, or engage in ad homonyms. 

Mydd, just doesn't do meta, that's all.  They're the grandaddy blog, but they aren't a-list on the numbers.

Dameocrat Blog


[ Parent ]
¡Vive la difference! (9.50 / 10)
My Left Wing is an antithesis to DailyKos.

So be it.

Each one plays a different role (a changing one at that).

I would certainly like to think that in a not distant future, My Left Wing will be the premier left wing blog in America.

We need to persevere, doing what we do best, giving voice to left wing perspectives on all issues and acting as a vibrant community, one that is not just the same but opposite, rather a true antithesis.

DailyKos is now part of the establishment, My Left Wing is the new barbarians crashing the gates and lobbing new ideas over the walls.

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

My Left Wing, the bravest and most beautiful freedom rant.


just for marcos (8.67 / 6)
with thanks to Randy Newman...


Short People got no reason
Short People got no reason
Short People got no reason
To live

They got little hands
And little eyes
And they walk around
Tellin' great big lies
They got little noses
And tiny little teeth
They wear platform shoes
On their nasty little feet.

ah, I feel better now....

a few more wins would be nice...even if we compromise some principals; since 1968 the (soon to be 40 years) the Dems have had the ability to select Supreme Court Justices for twelve years and had some bad luck re. turnover....which is why we find ourselves in this position....







"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG


Working on a post (10.40 / 5)
I don't know how soon I'll have it pulled together, though. This is the first evening I've actually gotten home at a normal dinnertime hour, and I've kind of been taking it easy. But I've been poking along at writing something building on my comment in response to this thread by Booman

http://www.boomantri...

as well as some of the things that emerged in the recent post by the guy who felt compelled to share why doesn't read Booman much any more.

The post is tenatively titled "Prophets and Kingmakers". You, Maryscott, are a prophet. Being a prophet doesn't pay well, and it means that people will be mad at you a lot of the time. In the Hebrew scriptures we read of prophets being commissioned by G-d. In the past I have read those stories and thought, boy, wouldn't it be nice to have that kind of certainty when we are fighting the good fight against the kind of opposition we often face?

But then I realized that the stories were written down long after the fact, at a time when it was clear that the person had been right.

And I know you don't do what you do because you think G-d wants you to, but because of your own strong internal sense of what is right. A lot of the time, though, that probably looks a lot like my idea (and the idea of many of those people at the B.R.E.A.D. meeting) of what G-d wants.

My Left Wing Political t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.


Substance Needs Style NOT equal to Style OR Substance (9.00 / 5)
of course, the latter framing is beneficial to selling a ...

a sell out 'philosophy'?

we do need style - name 1 of bushie's fascist fucking strategies or policies that benefits ANYONE but his rich fuck friends?

some of us have the ideas, we can't sell them worth a shit.

maybe some of these big boys only want to do a HRC and sell their sell out crap as ... real ideas? something new?

such a stratergery has served hillary & co. quite well for decades.

rmm.



Grassroots Organizing By The Community, For The Community, NOT for the "Leaders" http://www.liemail.com/BambooGrassroots.html


I'll let Pratchett speak for me: (8.86 / 7)
Witches didn't fear much, Miss Tick had said, but what the powerful ones were afraid of, even if they didn't talk about it, was what they called "going to the bad".  It was easy to slip into careless little cruelties because you had power and other people hadn't, too easy to think other people didn't matter much, too easy to think that ideas like right and wrong didn't apply to you.  At the end of that road was you drooling and cackling to yourself all alone in a gingerbread house, growing warts on your nose.

Terry Pratchett - A Hat Full of Sky

Powerful people, no matter what their particular specialty should heed the fears of fictional witches.

But Jonah Goldberg? He's a bottom feeder on the bottom of the bottom.

I can agree with the netroots going off the Progressive rails argument (on Iraq in particular), the infusion the DLC/Democrat-lite ("but we're pragmatic!") argument (see different tone in comments on Howie Klein's piece at FDL and DK), but becoming rethugs to win? In the sense of tamping down any criticism and toeing the party line, yeah. But in the big picture steal the election way? Not likely. And frankly, I'd like to see the context of Stoller's comments before buying wholesale into anything Goldberg says to fit his overall slant.

I also disagree that DLC/Dem-lite atmosphere exists at FDL. I don't see that at all. I can't speak about the others mentioned, but FDL gets a daily perusal. I'm not a member of the community so don't know what happens in the comments but I've never got the impression that slamming Dems when they deserve to be slammed was verboten on the front page at FDL. Nor do I see the veneer of "win at any cost" "pragmatism".

What Goldberg doesn't say is the conservative ideology is a lie. Actually, at this point in time all politics is a lie.  The point is to be able trick enough people into believing your particular lie. (See Howie Klein's piece)

As far as I'm concerned the Democratic Party is lost.  They are just as lost as the rethug party. Their dickering around about Iraq, the games both parties play with the lives of real people. I've come to the conclusion that all they fucking care about is gaining power and holding onto it.  There are a few exceptions, of course, but I'd probably be lucky to get to double digits in counting up the true to-serve-the-people-of-this-country politicians.  And that has led this lifelong Dem to say to the politicians of both parties, FUCK YOU and the lies your road in on.

Welcome to the American Idol version of politics where you get to vote for a bunch of lame-assed hacks singing different songs in the same tune. If the main players in the netroots want to push that show it's their prerogative, but some of us aren't tuning in anymore.

"As you get older, you get less willing to buy the latest version of reality." Leonard Cohen


Point taken about Firedoglake (8.00 / 2)

I include them only because they are a beneficiary of Moulitsas's and as such tend to toe the DKos party line; however, I think you ae correct when you say that I mischaracterise them as being soft on the DCL or Democrats in general.

I also agree about Goldberg; hence my aside as to being not a little nauseated to find myself agreeing with him on any point, let alone so many in such a small space of time.

Check my update for the context and more...


--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
Ah, I figured FDL got tossed in because (8.33 / 3)
of the close relationship with DK, but until I see an obvious DLC-creep showing up on the frontlines of the blog, I'm going to assume they are acting independently of the DLC/Dem-lite mindset. 

As for your update. Oh my, it is to laugh.  The Norquist comment becomes more disturbing along with my parsing of this:

We like to hash things out.  And hashing things out tends to create a sense of community and natural discipline, since you kind of figure out where the obvious areas of agreement are and move in that direction.

Natural discipline.  Does that mean that those who goes against this natural discipline (like say MSOC, BTD and countless others) instead of accepting and being naturally disciplined (let's face it, the thugs got the base minions well-disciplined), are not useful members of the community?  Well, golly-gee I suppose that's exactly what it means.

Admiring the way that rethugs stay lock-stepped goes against every fiber of my being. But I'm not pragmatic and I do have standards. Of course, I love how standards has morphed into "purity". Look Ma, I'm undisciplined!

No wonder the color is mostly gone from some sites, obvious areas of agreement (everyone mostly marching in the same direction) have become have colored the places beige. The message: Color within the lines with these pre-approved colors or don't color at all.

I knew I wasn't part of the naturally disciplined community when I was told that if I didn't vote for whomever the Dems threw into the election (regardless of how noxious) I was a traitor and was not welcomed in the community. Sounded awfully rethugish to me and that was the beginning of the end. I guess I like to color outside the lines using neon purple every once in awhile.

If none of this makes sense it's because I'm attempting to multi-task and tonight I suck at it.

"As you get older, you get less willing to buy the latest version of reality." Leonard Cohen


[ Parent ]
It's About Core Issues (6.00 / 6)
Not about the rights of transgendered dwarfs or saving the ceteans.

It's about core goddamed issues!

And it is about God-fucking time that the purer than thou on the left wakes up to the political reality.

And if you don't wake up, you get fucked up the ass, whether you like it or not.

And if you don't organize and don't vote about the larger issues, you get marginalized.

Can we say say 30 years of the "left" and their priorites, without laughing or visiting the spittoon or the vomitorium.

I sure the hell can't.

Think: End War; Universal Health Insurance; Liveable minimum Wage, for starters.

Little things mean a lot.


that depends on how you define your core issues (10.46 / 13)
if you define them in a way that frees you from giving a shit about the inalienable right of those human beings that are transgendered dwarfs, or the concern for the environment that drives those who want to save tghe cetaceans, you've hardly got any business asking for their vote. and once you start pitching people overboard, it's not long before you don't have much of a party to play with, core values or no.

the fact of the matter is that our core values are not in conflict with the particular issues that motivate members of our base's political organizing. the rights of all people matter, not just those who look like us. and their preservation and eercise of their rights does not lessen our rights a whit.

human dignity is not a zero sum game. if you want to treat someone's cause as irrelevant in the service of a larger goal, i suggest beginning with something that you hold dear, if for no other reason than to set a good example, and demonstrate that you aren't in this to use people.

you first. my core values aren't in conflict with anyone's rights.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat


[ Parent ]
The Issues (6.00 / 6)
I mentioned one imaginary(I hope), except in a very few instances, and the latter marginal, to 96% of the US population.

The left has to organize nationally on issues that matter very much to at least 50% of the population.

Or it wanders off into oblivion.

I am not saying anything about what is voteworthy or causeworthy statwide or locally.


[ Parent ]
Why 5 Hearts (7.00 / 1)
I appreciate your affection, from the bottom of mah heart.

[ Parent ]
Lestat, (6.00 / 1)

A "3" rating simply means she disagrees with you or is answering in the negative a question you may have asked in the post to which she is responding. A "3" is not a negative rating, just a "negative" response or disagreement.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

[ Parent ]
I don't think Lestat is talking about (6.75 / 4)
pitching people overboard, I believe he is saying we don't always have to lead with our chins...discretion is sometimes the better part of valour..





"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG


[ Parent ]
Interesting (7.00 / 2)
"Principle never forgives and its logic is to kill."  Jacques Barzun

Chuck (10.00 / 1)
not George, Pennacchio. His name is Chuck.

Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


THanks, 5 (5.00 / 1)

I got several damned names wrong in this piece. I have NO idea where my head was when I was writing it, man. Anthony Alito? George Pennacchio? Thank God I didn't have to come up with someone with a really confusing name.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

[ Parent ]
What an enormous pile of stinking crap Goldberg is (9.12 / 8)
The conservative movement was a response to generations of growing statism at home and abroad. From the Progressive era to the Great Society, government seemed to be expanding in tandem with the threat of communism.

Well, NO SHI-ITE, Sherlock! Thanks to idiot conservatives and the phony "threat of communism", and the likes of the Hawkish Scoop Jackson allies, the Cold War created the gigantic national security prison-industrial militarist's wet dream that is America today. Government didn't "seem" to be expanding, it was expanding, as it still expanding today under the "leadership" of a "conservative".

Conservatism wasn't a response to statism, it became statism. And liberalism (in America) went right along with it! That's why this nation became the greatest purveyor of violence on the face of the globe. That's why we have military bases in 100+ countries.

The results are in: Countless federal, state, and local agencies that can arrest you, millions in prison just for doing drugs in their own homes, dozens of agencies that can spy on you or perhaps make you disappear into an old KGB gulag; and we blow gigantic wads of cash on "Defense" Department boondoggles like "Ballistic Missile Defense" and "Victory" and "Reconstruction" in Iraq.

The real truth is the New Left lost the conflict that happened over Vietnam, for the soul of this country... that war went raging on for years, and the warrior empire has been raging on for decades since. And nothing is going to stop it. Not faux progressives who "just want to be like Norquist" and not faux conservatives who want to shrink all parts of government except the biggest, most wasteful, intrusive, coercive, and violent parts.

Now that we've got the phony "threat of terrism" as bugaboo, this country is basically screwed.

'What can I do?' - SiCKO


Democracy is Broke (7.44 / 9)
In 2004, we had the right-wing side of the editorial board in the Atlanta paper all proud that they hid the whole Christian campaign network from the news. The right has mastered the art of breaking the message up to the various segments of society, and keeping the whole message hidden.

Every once in a while, someone on the right realizes they are being suckered, and complains, but it dies.

The top politicians have mastered the art of saying nothing, while giving the impression they stand for something.

And we on the left are heading that way.

Many anti-war war people thinks Kos feels that way. He doesn't care. He just knows THIS war sucks. When Israel and Hizballah had at it last year, Kos said nothing. God forbid he take a position that actually means taking a stand. It costs nothing to be silent while people die. He doesn't say anything about the I/P situation. He knows that researching it, and actually taking a reasoned approach means political death. I don't care what side of many you take on these things, but take one. He won't.

Clark and Richardson have serious foreign policy positions that will show off what is great about America. They get no support.

Instead, we get candidates that talk about using arms, building up the military (which already equals the military might of the rest of the world combined), and ignore the negative influence that AEI poses to America and the world.

I'm sick of people that make an art of not saying something. Democracy needs people to speak out about what they stand for. Honestly.

We have a Republican party that has Religous right and greedy corporates blinking at each other and electing someone that is forced to bounce between them (greed wins, thanks to the greed of Robertson and Falwell to provide cover.)

Now we have Democrats that don't want to offend Daley in Chicago. Political machines are where it is at. That is where the money and power is.

Not ideas.

So they found Herod's tomb. 2000 years ago, he was viewed as a puppet to the Romans. Fast forward to Karzei in Afghanistan and Maliki in Iraq. We are the Romans and we have our puppets. No one wants to say that.

I thought there was a political movement that wanted to change the world. Instead, we will get a Democrat that will be just like the Republican. A political insider that has been vetted by all sorts of other political insiders. Then the netroots leaders will tell us who will be able to win.

We will be sending arms to Sunni fundamentalist in 3 years in some quiet operation to push some short term political gain so we can control some oil field. In 5 years, the same fundies will turn their back on us and kill a bunch of Americans.

Then America will collapse.

And the oil wars begin.

But Kos will have his little empire.



a wolf in sheeps clothing is (7.33 / 6)
still a wolf.

Markos in yuppie liberal camo is still a republican.

Glad we are no longer the only people who see that.


Marcos is Pro Business/ Pro Military (6.00 / 2)
Someone should take a hard look at who Marcos is, where he actually grew up and who his parents were...that will probably give you an idea of why this person is very conservative.

Marcos said he's not idelogical at all...he just wants to win....well that's the ideology of any military force and largely the ideology of corporations.

Put that together and you know where he stands politically.

He is pro military and pro use of the military and pro business.....how does that translates into traditional leftist programs aimed at health, education and welfare?

It doesn't it's the opposite.

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
I think your use of Goldberg's dishonesty (5.38 / 8)
damages an importnqwt case to be made on the failures of the Left blogs.

I explain why I think so here.


whoa! did someone .... (6.11 / 9)
"mention" you?!

musta missed it!

lol

Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
They did not (4.17 / 6)
I considered that a courtesy comment letting MSOC and her rewders know I had linked to her post and disagreed with her focus, what she buys from Goldberg specifically.

I see now the MLW Cult can;t have that.

I request my two comments on this thread be deleted.

MSOC, please do me the courtesy of deleting my two comments.

The Cult can't have it.

What a dimwitted site this has become.


[ Parent ]
fuck you armando (8.25 / 4)
listen, I'm sick of this shit.  When you say the cult of MSOC you are an idiot, 5hearts has reamed MLW over and over and MSOC... so you are not talking about her, are you talking about me?

You have armando-haters chide  you on the net but want to blame MLW?  Why, because it doesn't matter how MSOC or I actually treat you, unless we coral other people, like you failed trying to do for thankless kos and co, we fail you?

ok, I fail you.

what don't you fuckers get about "collection of individuals"... are you truly THAT FUCKING INVESTED IN THE SHEEP AND SHEPARD model of society?

and if so, no wonder the party sucks.

-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
Will you kindly delte my comments (2.11 / 9)
and also read more carefully - Cult of MLW.

The Cult of Hatred.

You are an enabler of this bullshit you fuckhead.

Shut the fuck up and clean up this house of shit that this has become and stop lecturing people why you let this place become the cesspool it has become.

You got some fucking nerve you fuckhead.


[ Parent ]
A cult? You flatter us. (8.17 / 6)
Aren't cults, um, cohesive and organized.  Jesus, running this place is like herding cats. 

We only agree on three things at MyLeftWing:

The Republican Party is run by Satanistic corporate boogerheads.

The Blogging Curmudgeon is the best speller on MyLeftWing.  Even better than Shanikka (not sure if I spelled her name right).

Coke tastes better than Pepsi.

That's about it, dude.


Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
Unified in hatred of certain personalities (2.20 / 5)
BTE, would YOU delete my comments on this thread pelase?

[ Parent ]
I Don't Hate Anyone (9.33 / 3)
Except my ex-mother in law, George W. Bush and the felonious mortgage foreclosure consultant I've been litigating against for the past 7 1/2 years who to date has not been hit by a bus despite rather focused prayers towards that end coming from me (OK, I admit I'm going to hell) for several years now.  So, again, you paint with far too broad a brush when you assert that folks are "unified in hatred of certain personalities."  I certainly don't hate you.  You get on my last nerve when you do this type of drama thing, but that's not hatred.  I actually like you very much.  But I suspect you already knew that. 

You can find my meanderings on all things Black and political at Maat's Feather

[ Parent ]
Umm (7.00 / 6)
I'm not cosigning on that Coke vs. Pepsi thing.  Sorry.

You can find my meanderings on all things Black and political at Maat's Feather

[ Parent ]
No fucking way (0.00 / 0)
Pepsi is so much better than Coke. 

[ Parent ]
excuse me? (0.00 / 0)
Surely you aren't disparaging cats.

That would not be a smart move, kiddo.

A cat's got her own opinion of human beings. She doesn't say much, but you can tell enough to make you anxious not to hear the whole of it.



[ Parent ]
Ok, the only thing we agree on is that I'm wrong 2/3 of the time (7.00 / 1)
Or do Shanikka and I have to enter a spelling bee to see which one of us is the better speller?  I got an unabridged dictionary RIGHT HERE and I ain't afraid to use it....

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

[ Parent ]
I Cain't Spell (7.50 / 2)
Anyone could have told youse that.

You can find my meanderings on all things Black and political at Maat's Feather

[ Parent ]
You have two many letters in "spell" (0.00 / 0)
It's "spel".  I'm a vury gud speler.  Hookt on foniks wurkt fur me.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

[ Parent ]
enabler of hatred (0.00 / 0)
on the internet?

hahahaahahah

where ISN'T there hatred on the net?!?!?!

fucking use the net some day

when people of your opinion jtry to clean it up it gets worse, you get more hate, and blame me.

fucking DO LIKE I DO YOU ASS, and you'll get less hate.

other than by example, you are on your own.

-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
Armando (0.00 / 0)
Armando..your personalizing everything just like the people at MLW do all the time. That's what makes a cult a cult. Everything that is said and done is internalized.

No one looks outside at the world.

How are you different?

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
Pyrrho, (6.71 / 7)
You likely know that that Armando is attempting to prove that he can behave in such an immature and obnoxious fashion that MSOC will be forced to ban him. In his delusional world, the victory of banning here would vindicate his good friend Markos's treatment of MSOC et al. Armando apparently thinks that if he forces MSOC to admit that a user can become so insufferable that the user must be expelled, then Markos's purification campaign at DK will also be legitimized.

Of course, there would be no parallel between the situations, because Armando makes no pretense that he is here for any reason other than disruption, but that's beside the point. IMO MSOC should allow Armando to carry on like this ad infinitum. First, his tantrums are fun to watch. Secondly, the outbursts humiliate him in a way that calling him on his lies doesn't even approach. Thirdly, it demonstrates that MSOC supports even the most idiotic of free speech. Finally, it improves the number of hits to the site. There really isn't a down side to keeping him here from her perspective.

If you  offer him only platitudes, gently pat him gently as you would a if he were someone else's spoiled child, who you know isn't your problem, he'll eventually take his candy and go home. But if he stays, treat his ravings like the shrill screams of any village idiot, as  meaningless as they are.


[ Parent ]
Armando (8.29 / 7)
Stop with the "cult" bullshit please.  It's beneath you.  And MSOC as well.  You malign a whole bunch of people who have never said "boo" to you with that type of overinclusiveness.  I called you out on it once before on DailyKOS, and I'm doing it again now.  It is not fair.  If you have a beef with an individual, then keep it between you and that individual and leave the rest of us out of it, even by implication through use of cute but completely inapt words like "cult" to collectively describe those who happen to be here as a regular participant.  Including, first and foremost, me.  Thanks.


You can find my meanderings on all things Black and political at Maat's Feather

[ Parent ]
what's (8.00 / 5)
an "Armando"???





"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG


[ Parent ]
The local (7.75 / 4)
drama queen/king?

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
I think (8.12 / 8)
It was a fleet of ships intended to invade England.

No, wait--maybe I'm thinking of something else...

My Left Wing Political t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.


[ Parent ]
Excuse me (3.33 / 6)
There are a lot of people who have done nothing to anyone here who, by YOUR lights, get the same fucking treatment you now complain of for MLW.

I have been clear on this, it is EVERYBODY's responsibility to call out bullshit at a site they claim to care about.

Your silence of the Cult of Hatred that MLW has become is problematic to me. That is my view.

I do not post here. And I ask you also to delete my comments.

I posted my initial comment as a courtesy to let MSOC and her readership know that I had linked to her piece.

I was met weith the standard MLW CULT reaction.

AS usual, the silence was deafening.

This place is as bad as daily kos in its silence and groupthink.

It bother you that I think that I suppoose. But I do. And the evidence of this is rampant.

But you are an admin and I ask you to delete ALL my comments from this thread please.


[ Parent ]
We don't throw things down the Memory Hole here (7.40 / 5)
I hope.


Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

[ Parent ]
This *place* (9.71 / 7)
Includes me.  And others who have said nothing to you to set you off.  You're a big boy, so you don't need me to defend you by speaking out about that which you are complaining.  I'm not your mama.  My silence is because I treat you like the adult you are; you can fight your own battles, and have made that clear.  You can spend time reviewing things and find that generally I *am* silent - until things reach the level of "OK enough of this bullshit", whether it is bullshit because it is unfair to others or bullshit because it is something that should have been left behind somewhere in 10th or 11th grade (unfortunately, too often the case these days.)

You have your opinions about what you think others' obligations are and I'm sure you will recall that the last time this issue came up, I disagreed with you.  I still disagree with you.  It's all good.

But what you don't get to do is come into a place that you don't even call home, but that others do, and levy a scattershot insult at everyone in it just because you're upset at the proprietor.  I don't come into your house to do that, you don't get to come into mine to do it.  That's something that our respective cultures taught each of us since we were smaller than knee-high, and you know it.

I raised issue with only one thing:  you calling people collectively, most of whom do not have any ill will towards you and many who respect your work, "a cult" because you are pissed at certain individuals at a given moment in time.  It's intellectually dishonest, and just plain old juvenile.  So I again ask you to just stop the bullshit.  Keep your rancor directed at the ones you are aiming at.  Please.  Thank you.

You can find my meanderings on all things Black and political at Maat's Feather


[ Parent ]
I will defend Armando on one narrow point. (8.00 / 3)
And yes he can defend himself.

But, one weakness of this community is that while many are quick to support their "friends" (with favorable comments or ratings) they are loathe to chide them when they act inappropriately.  This failing does reflect on the broader community.  Although, per the course, Armando's presentation of his case is made in the most offensive manner possible.  Still, there are points worthy of serious consideration in his comments.


[ Parent ]
Oh, God, we've unleashed the lawyers (7.25 / 4)
Not that there's anything wrong with that.


Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

[ Parent ]
On this (7.40 / 5)
I agree.  There is too much of that here, just as there is at other community places.  And yes, it does reflect poorly on all the participants in it and the site as an aggregate of participants.  Frankly, someone who was actually working on a PhD thesis in sociology or psychology would write a hell of an article on these dynamics, and how they (as is the case with many collective spaces on the Internet; similar types of stuff goes on in the gaming world, too) reignite many types of behaviors that are not associated with grown people.  At least, not most of the time.

You can find my meanderings on all things Black and political at Maat's Feather

[ Parent ]
um (0.00 / 0)
you had a couple replies from individuals.

our silence is deafening..? 

you have started a lot of fights on the internets to expect me to get in the middle of one.


-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
Amando: an Unrelated Question (0.00 / 0)
Armando: This is just a question..I'm looking for information..You, I have the impression,  know him.

Do you know what Moultisas parents were and what they did for a living while in El Salvador? And the name of his uncle who was education minister in El Salvador in and around the 1980's?

Thanks

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
Armando, I'm with shanikka on this (9.57 / 7)
It's nothing short of outrageous and disrespectful to constantly use words like 'cult' in describing what goes on here at MLW.

I've been a supporter and a friend to you for a long time, I've never called you out on anything, instead I've chosen to look the other way because of your strong stance on women's rights and issues but I've grown weary of you on MLW.

When you make blanket statements that wrap words around us like 'cult' it diminishes us, it's hurtful and frankly not accurate.  You take great pains in defending your friend Markos but you seem to not care one wit if you disrespect others, such as myself, with your sweeping generalizations.

You took me to task in a diary on dailykos because you thought I was dishonest in what I said about Markos, it was insulting that you chose to do so in public when you know my email address, a true friend would have thought of that but I gave you a free pass because of the respect I've always had for you but I've grown tired of you here.  What would it have cost you to email me after you wrote the diary, seems to me someone who considers himself a friend would at least make the effort. 

It seems you want considerations to be given to you when you don't take the time to consider what your actions and words do.  I am not part of a cult of anything so please think before you post such nonsense.



I will not die an unlived life. Fuck em, I will not live in fear, I will live out loud and on the record.  

Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) 1-800-787-3224 (TTY)  


[ Parent ]
It is meant to be disrespectful (3.00 / 6)
As I have no respect for this community. And I mean COMMUNITY, not individuals, who most all are brilliant in their own way. Coming togethrr as a community, they have brought out the worst in each other.

The most hypocritical site in the entire blogosphere.

I blame the community as a whole, as I do daily kos, which is just as bad.

I think both MLW and daily kos to be horrible blogging communities where thinking has been utterly rejected as part of the process.

You decry my honest and supported reaction.

You compare it to my reaction to what you said about Markos. I do not think them comparable statements.

Indeed, if you still believe what you wrote then then you and I stand in stark disagreement.

BTW, are you an Admin? Would YOU delete my comments please?


[ Parent ]
Armando, I'm not an administrator n/t (0.00 / 0)


I will not die an unlived life. Fuck em, I will not live in fear, I will live out loud and on the record.  

Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) 1-800-787-3224 (TTY)  


[ Parent ]
Well, Armando, you know that groups have this (9.00 / 1)
notorious and unfortunate tendency to degrade.  The antidote is to have people who are willing to sacrifice personal gratification to provide a sustained support for the really important issues.

I saw both you and MSOC at least try to do this at DKos. 

There's at least one other person here - whom you seem to dislike pretty intensely - who's tried to do this.

What can one say?  It's presumptuous to ask you all for anything more?  Maybe so, but the country is in a deep crisis, civilization is  going to hell, along with the planet.

O well....


[ Parent ]
I see merit (6.67 / 3)
in some of what you wrote, but I don't see the "manifesto" in her essay at all.

I took it as her recognizing that there is a point to be made that dKos is most assuredly not a Left place.


[ Parent ]
Would you kindly delete my comments from this thread? (2.50 / 6)
Thanks in advance.

[ Parent ]
I can't darlin. (7.33 / 3)
It wouldn't be right, I'll let herself make that call.

besides, I think what you wrote as a response to her essay as an opposing viewpoint totally worth debate.

Don't take one poster dragging arguements cross-thread, unprovoked as indicitive of the whole blog.

That was pure bullshit IMO, and you didn't start anything wrong here.


[ Parent ]
I most urgently request (2.60 / 5)
that they be deleted.

As soon as possible.

Thanks for you assistance in this matter.


[ Parent ]
time machine (7.50 / 4)
and then it wouldn't have been said?

if you don't want stuff posted, don't post it.

two, that's how I found your link, I've not been online enough to keep up with your work for a number of weeks, but I check in on MLW so this is how I read your post, which was interesting, if totally wrong and astoundingly point-missing, not to mention in deep denial it would seem about the vocal, overt, dedication to non-idealism, ot anti-idealism, in the big community so called left wing blogs.

but I am interested in your take, both surprised and not surprised, fully confused where you get your idea on this from, so I am glad to have seen your link.

as for the cult comments, still fuck you, and you have NO STANDING because of hte way you interacted with your dkos-based adulation, at least imo.  You have NO history dealing well with group madness, with dispelling deification flowing your way, repairing communities, any of that.  You are entitled to your opinion, but you had better have an argument of amazing quality... your intuition on these matters is suspect, to say the least.

THIS is from the anals of the many things YOU MISS.


-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
So yiou ignore my request for deletion? (0.50 / 4)
Fuck you very nmuch pyrrho.

[ Parent ]
I don't believe in deletion (9.00 / 5)
hello, nice to fucking meet you.  I still don't support deletion after 3 years.  Stop waiting.

-pyrrho-

[ Parent ]
if you accidently post... (9.67 / 6)
... some private information or a threat... I'll delete it for you.

-pyrrho-

[ Parent ]
Herself doesn't (9.67 / 3)
believe in deleting comments, since they delete any comments which were posted in response.

And no, I don't have that power either.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
so sorry and quite right (6.29 / 7)
you are "unprovoked" it was ...

and this "poster" is just "dragging things across threads for no reason"...

Again, I apologize. Armando has done nothing but been the most respectful and non-verbally abusive person here, forever so long.


Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
Interesting (5.33 / 3)
Mostly I agree. The onward raging Iraq war is a big failure of the so-called netroots to make a dent in the empire's armor.

But

the Right does not respect the truth, like them or not, the Left blogs do.

Is this statement completely true?

We know the Right doesn't respect the truth. And sometimes Left blogs do respect the truth.

But when that truth is about rotten Democratic Party politics and politicians? Not so clear.

Our two party oligopoly is all set to deliver us more war and inequality, online "movement" or no.

'What can I do?' - SiCKO


[ Parent ]
For a psychopath winning is everything (8.67 / 3)
It doesn't matter how or what.  Vonnegut quoted by Harrison Koehli
Psychopaths are social predators who charm, manipulate, and ruthlessly plow their way through life, leaving a broad trail of broken hearts, shattered expectations, and empty wallets. Completely lacking in conscience and in feelings for others, they selfishly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret.

A bit too strong for Kos, Hunter and their crowd?  It describes pretty well how I was treated by the Kos Mob.  Kos' psychological makeup seems similar that of many neo-cons.  We have to learn how not to fall for this type of leader. Further down in Koehli's article:
If Ponerology teaches us one thing it is that psychopaths are pervasive and chameleon-like in nature. They are not easily identifiable. As such, it is a given that any group unaware of their existence and their modus operandi are subject to ponerization. Any group.

Ideologies by themselves do not need psychopaths. Normal people are often at their root. However, psychopathic spellbinders need ideologies, and they don't care which one, either! They can with equal ease attach themselves to Communism or Capitalism. Even the so-called resistance. Watch as the ideology of the 9/11 and anti-war movements slowly becomes a justification for bloody revolution and murder. "Truth at any cost! Let the criminals hang!" The twist will be so subtle that most will not see it. Many will get caught up in the bloodlust, convinced that their motives are pure.

And that is the recurring problem that must be identified and watched for. The defeat of any psychopathic regime is merely killing one head of the hydra. The seeds of destruction are already evenly distributed throughout the population. Psychopaths will continue to rise through the ranks, donning their incredibly deceptive masks of sanity, and achieving positions of power over the rest of us. And we will not see it until it is too late. We never do.



Don't Panic.

the thing I don't get (8.50 / 2)
is who ordained Markos a "leader"? I mean what did he actually DO that ever resembled "leadership"?

I don't get it. All he did was make *his* way....good for him, but "leader"? Of who?

The dispossessed? [with all due apologies to Ursula K. LeGuin] The intellectually disadvantaged?
The socially inept?
The lazy?
The The?

and what exactly did he lead them to?????

Don't want to get it.

Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
First mover advantage (4.67 / 3)
mostly, combined with decent marketing.

'What can I do?' - SiCKO

[ Parent ]
not first mover (7.67 / 3)
no, the market was softened, blogging had sprung once in general, and a first mover wave of political blogging had HAPPENED.

Kos was there to clean it up, the "second mover" principle, by which first movers RARELY hold the crown, they risk too much showing how it can be done, and given those instructions opportunists manage to come in and appear to do things like invent the internet for the newbies.

-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
I stand corrected. (6.00 / 2)
Well, you're basically comparing dailyKos to Microsoft, good at being second, but also a bloated not-the-best-solution solution that tries to squash the little guy. Sounds about right.

'What can I do?' - SiCKO

[ Parent ]
That's the Maryscott ... (9.80 / 5)
I love to read! Reading your diary made me think of something I've heard before and it goes like this: be careful who your enemies are because eventually you will resemble them.

It's easy to rationalize compromsing core principles for victory and the "greater good." Sometimes it's necessary because life is complicated. But not to the point where the pigs resemble Farmer Jones.

I know you've been down and it's easy to feel depressed about the state of the world and the symbol of the progressive blogosphere, Daily Kos, a place you helped build look more and more like Farmer Jones.

But the progressive blogoshpere is a big place. New voices with strength and clarity are emerging. Sometimes when I browse the blogosphere I'll discover a talented voice I haven't read before and it's invigorating. We just need to do a better job of identifying and promoting those voices. Markos is one and we are many. Both inside and outside Daily Kos. And he's creating a vacumn eager to be filled cumulatively by all of us.

Intrepid Liberal Journal


well put (8.75 / 4)
exactly.

the most charitable view, the one kos asks for when he laughs to sycophants about how funny it is to consider him a Reagan Democrat just because he praises the Reagan admin as the good old days of more repsonsible Republicans... is option B.  Naive, incompetant for the task they've taken on.

it's sad, because kos was more than competant enough to keep the fields of dkos alive and working, to let it operate on it's own and to tend to the FP in terms of forming his own message.  That working biosphere of diaries would have continued to lend credibility to the FP, and make the FP look reasononed... like the adults were "in control" for those that think it childish to, for example, take election fraud seriously... but he broke that vow, and the peter principle was bound to follow, imo.

markos has caused a lot of people to understand what they never understood before, what Nader voters were thinking in 2000.

thanks markos. >-(

-pyrrho-


Today (6.00 / 1)
In Hunter's diary about the cult of Reagan I asked how many DKos members actually voted for Reagan. I got crickets. I was really simply curious and wasn't really intending to make any judgements, but I guess it wasn't an important enough question for people to answer.

That diary btw, was full-to-the-brim of Reagan-haters. Not that it matters, of course, but I thought it was interesting considering the locale.

mbr + dv + woyg


[ Parent ]
Your fact-checker is in the house, with Redford quotes, no less (8.71 / 7)
The Supreme Court justice to whom you refer is  Samuel Alito, not Anthony Alito (often referred to as "Scalito" because he's considered a junior Antonio Scalia). 

I'm going to send you the Supreme Court trading cards.  It's like baseball cards, except with, um, you know, Supreme Court justices on them.

Anyway, EXCELLENT analysis, not just of blogging but of the philosophy of Winnerism, in which electoral victory is everything.

Actually, no it's not.  You see, right now you can win just by saying, "The Republicans have fucked us over."  That'll work...if your only goal is victory in 2008.

But once you win, then what?

Actually, I remember a very good little film that Robert Redford made, "The Candidate."  It's about an idealistic Senate candidate (Robert McKay) who, bit by bit, gives up everything he believes in--his soul, really--for The Win. 

At the end, Redford's character, who began the film full of fiery idealism, turns to Marvin Lucas, his Grover Norquist-type political handler (Peter Boyle) after Redford has won his Senate seat and utters these famous words:

"Marvin ... What do we do now?"

Redford asks this forlornly, a man who has lost his way.  There is nothing left of him but an empty suit.

There are a lot of empty suits in the Senate and the House. 

Want to know the GOP's plan?

They're going to wait us out. 

The GOP is planning to re-take Congress in the 2010 mid-term elections, or at least knock down the Democratic majorities, and then get it all back in 2012.  The Democrats will be sent reeling into the abyss.

Sure, the Democrats will keep the House, the Senate, and re-take the White House (probably) in 2008.  The Democrats did the exact same thing in 1992, when they had control of both Houses and the White House for the first time in 12 years.

In 1994, the Democrats lost 54 seats (and their majority) in the House, and 8 seats (and their majority) in the Senate.

What did the Democrats stand for in 1994?  Between 1992 and 1994, Clinton failed to deliver on national health care reform, weaseled his way out of his promise to let gays serve openly in the military, and then shivved the working class in the back by signing the NAFTA treaty.

Let's not say it was lack of "ideology".  Ideology is such a nasty, sterile word that reminds one of Marxist-Leninist revolutionaries.

Let's say "beliefs".  What are the BELIEFS of the Winnerism Democrats?

Ending poverty?  Nobody talks about that except John Edwards.

Ending NAFTA and other similar treaties, which have scooped jobs out of the industrial center of the nation?

You have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

The Democratic Party of today lacks the beliefs and principles that win lasting loyalty--the kind of loyalty working people felt for the Democrats for generations after FDR was President (and with good reason).  The Democrats were once the party of the People.

I take as my guide, "What's the Matter with Kansas?", a book written by my fellow Kansan Thomas Frank.  Frank's book is not complicated, but it is well worth reading.  Wikipedia has an excellent summary of it:

In the book, Frank examines what he calls "The Great Backlash", which he describes as a reactionary movement against the cultural changes of the 1960s and 1970s. According to his analysis, the political discourse of recent decades has dramatically shifted from the class animus of traditional leftism to one in which "explosive" cultural issues, such as abortion and gay marriage, are used to redirect anger towards "liberal elites".

Against this backdrop, Frank describes the rise of conservatism and the so-called "far right" in the social and political landscape of Kansas. He finds extraordinary irony in working-class Kansans' overwhelming support for Republican politicians, despite the fact that, in his view, the laissez faire economic policies of the Republican party are wreaking havoc on their communities and livelihoods for the benefit of the "extremely wealthy". Meanwhile, he says, the party fails to deliver on the "moral" issues (such as abortion and gay rights) which brought the support of cultural conservatives in the first place -- deepening a cycle of frustration aimed at cultural liberalism.

But wait--the current governor of Kansas is Kathleen Sebelius, a Democrat.  And how did Kathleen Sebelius defeat the Republicans?  NOT through Winnerism:

The book also details how Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius, a liberal Democrat, was able to win in conservative Kansas. By emphasizing issues like health care, school funding, and avoiding the hot-button social issues, Sebelius successfully fractured the Kansas GOP and won a clear majority.

Franks' basic theory of the book is simple. He says that the conservative coalition is the dominant coalition in American politics. According to Frank, this coalition is composed of two halves, the social and the economic conservatives. His theory is that while the two halves may not dislike each other, they have fundamentally different interests. The economic conservatives want business tax cuts and deregulation. The social conservatives want bans on gay marriage and abortion. Frank says that since the coalition formed in the late 1960s, the coalition has been "fantastically rewarding" for the economic conservatives. The policies of the republicans in power have been exclusively economic, but the coalition has caused the social conservatives to be worse off, due to these very economic policies. That, plus the fact that the social issues that this faction pushes never go anywhere after the election. According to Frank, "abortion is never outlawed, school prayer never returns, the culture industry is never forced to clean up its act." He attributes this partly to conservatives "waging cultural battles where victory is impossible," such as a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. He also argues that the very capitalist system the economic conservatives strive to strengthen and deregulate promotes and commercially markets the perceived assault on traditional values.

My own parents are proof of Frank's thesis.  They've had enough of the GOP bait-and-switch, and both of them voted for Sebelius in the last election (yes, my parents are, or were, Republican conservatives).  My Dad often praises Sebelius as a good governor, which originally caused my jaw to drop down several inches.

Quite simply, what Frank is calling for--and what I'm calling for--is class warfare.  The middle class and the poor against the rich.  It's a classic populist formula, but one which the Democrats may be unable or unwilling to follow because they, like the Republicans, are too financially dependent on the Fat Cats to stand up for us, the working people.

If the Democrats want to win something real, they need to stand up for some basic principles:

Every individual matters. 

Civil liberties matter.

The working class is getting screwed by the rich.

The slogan, "We're Not the Republicans!" may win one election or two, but it's not a recipe for lasting change.  In the long run, principles or beliefs, no matter how twisted or wrong, always triumph over the empty credo of Winnerism.



Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


Interesting Fun Fact (9.50 / 2)
The Supreme Court justice to whom you refer is  Samuel Alito, not Anthony Alito (often referred to as "Scalito" because he's considered a junior Antonio Scalia).

His name is also Anthony, so saying "not Anthony Alito" is only 50% true.  His full name is Samuel Anthony Alito, Jr.  (I leave off The Honorable only because I'm not writing him a letter.)  At first I too recoiled saying "foo" when I saw what MSOC had done, because of course I know full well his first name having written that I felt his elevation would be the death of America (or something close to that, anyway.)  And was going to post just what you did.

But then I realized hmmm......maybe she meant it as rhetorical device?

So this gives me a good opportunity to ask MSOC directly:  did you mean this as rhetoric? Or was it really an oopsie?

You can find my meanderings on all things Black and political at Maat's Feather


[ Parent ]
You could try emailing her (7.50 / 2)
Which is what I did.

Maryscott considers it an "oopsie". 

For the record, Justice Alito refers to himself officially as "Samuel A. Alito, Junior." 

I have trouble telling some of the new Supreme Court justices apart, really.  They're the freakin' Borg.  Interchangeable right-wing widgets.

If I had the power to push the issue, I'd actually push for the impeachment of every sitting Supreme Court justice who voted to stop the Florida vote recount in 2000, but I do believe I'm in the minority in that regard.

Doesn't mean I'm wrong, of course.


Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
As I responded above to 5hearts... (9.00 / 1)

When she kindly corrected my calling Chuck Pennacchio George -- it was a mistake. I would ordinarily now go over the post with my fine tooth fairy comb, but am too damned tired. Besides, the outfield is covering my sorry ass today, and that's all right by me.

So, if anyone else sees an egregious error (or, for that matter, an inoffensive typo), please let me know here or in an email -- I don't care which,



--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
You got my name wrong, too (5.33 / 3)
I'm now the Artist Formerly Known As The Blogging Curmudgeon.

Also, I want people to refer to me as THE Blogging Curmudgeon! with a ! at the end.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
So... (7.50 / 2)
...are you skipping that whole Unpronounceable Symbol phase? Or does that come next? I'm so out of touch with the post-WB Prince.

mbr + dv + woyg

[ Parent ]
My parents were raised during the Great Depression (8.60 / 5)
When I asked my Dad why he started voting for Republicans instead of Democrats, his response was, "Fuck the Democrats.  They don't do shit for working people."

My Dad was under the delusion that the Republicans, who use the language of populism to mask their country club policies, were the new Democratic Party...the party of the People.

You can't fool all of the people all of the time...my parents, and a lot of Kansans, have awakened to the truth.

A lot of people think of Kansas as this benighted place where hicks don't want evolution taught in the schools.  Ok, there is that element, but Kansas also has a proud populist tradition which it is slowly reclaiming.  The populist heritage is still evident in many ways in Kansas.

For example, did you know that anybody who graduates a Kansas high school can go to any of its four-year public universities?  You can't keep them out (even though some have tried) on the basis of grades and test scores.  It's the populist idea that, by God, everybody ought to have his chance at the brass ring.  The working class may not be able to hire private tutors to help their kids boost their SAT scores, or go to high schools that offer college prep courses, but they pay taxes, and aren't those public universities?

That's why my sisters and I were the first ones in our family to ever attend university, let alone finish it.  The "liberal" state of California wouldn't have given us that chance, because spaces in its universities are carefully reserved for those who have the resources to groom their children for the "name" universities like UCLA.

Not only that, but when I lived in Kansas, I had a problem with the local utility:  they claimed I hadn't paid my electric bill when, in fact, I had.  Their customer "service" was a sad joke, and they were threatening to cut off my electricity if I didn't pay them $200 plus "late fees".

Know what I did?  I picked up the phone and called the Kansas Public Utilities Commission.  An ombudsman made a phone call to the utility and by that afternoon, the entire matter was straightened out (and I got a written AND verbal apology for the screwup).  The thought of how those corporate fat cats were made to eat crow still puts a smile on my face, after all these years. 

Kansas also has--believe it or not--a history of environmentalism that goes back to the Dust Bowl.  The Dust Bowl resulted from poor farming practices, and resulted in the people, who live so close to the land, becoming very aware that we are stewards of the earth, not its despoilers.  The Land Institute, for example, is one of the nation's leaders in promoting "ecosystems agriculture", which means agriculture that is compatible with the natural ecology of the land.

Ok, so I'm a little defensive about being a Kansan.  But I'll tell you this: there aren't any looters in the tornado-ravaged town of Greensburg, Kansas.  There ARE a whole lot of people who saw their neighbors in trouble and brought food, blankets, water, and first aid supplies to the scene within hours after the tornado had gone. 

And in case you're wondering, yes, I do wear a piece of rope for a belt and yes, I do refer to "store bought shoes".  (Just kidding...maybe).

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
while the UC system's tuition hikes are making it harder to manage (9.00 / 1)
it's more than just berkeley or UCLA. here at UC davis, 28% of freshmen are the first in their families to go to college.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

[ Parent ]
Yes, and many of them will graduate with a huge debt load (9.00 / 2)
The 2006-07 tuition for UC Davis is $8,300.

The 2006-07 tuition for the University of Kansas is $5,400.

With student aid grants and waivers, the average tuition burden is actually much less, about $3,000 a year on average.

Not only that, but you skipped over the part of the post that says that ANYBODY who graduated a Kansas high school can go to ANY of its four-year universities.

That's the same as saying that anybody who graduates a California high school can go to UCLA if they chose to do so.

There are a lot of students in both California and Kansas who go to high schools that are underfunded.  They don't have access to the best teachers, nor to college preparatory courses...and certainly not to SAT tutors who can help them boost their scores.

You don't need to worry about that in Kansas.  All you need to do is come with a good work ethic and the desire to succeed.  Freshmen who need to overcome the handicap of a less-than-ideal high school preparation are given that at Kansas universities.

By the way, the freshman retention rate at the University of Kansas is 82.4%.  It's 83.9% at UC Davis.  But UC Davis screens its applicants for grades and SAT scores; KU doesn't...and yet their freshman retention rates (freshmen who actually graduate) are virtually the same.

I prefer the egalitarian nature of college admissions in Kansas.  You pay taxes in Kansas, your kids ought to have a chance to go to college.

Kansas is the ONLY state in the nation that has a 100% open admissions policy to its four year institutions. 


Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
i generally agreee with your point here (0.00 / 0)
i just wanted to make it clear that we aren't all rich legacy kids over here. the increasing debt is very worrisome, and i believe a major barrier to many people who would otherwise go.

and don't assume people are secretly hating on kansas, either. my grandfather grew up in a soddie in west kansas, before the dust bowl blew him to colorado and later santa barbara for film school.


surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat


[ Parent ]
Naw, most people think Kansans are ignorant hicks (0.00 / 0)
You have to hang out with farmers for awhile and listen to them discuss the drought in northern China or the Euro-US dollar exchange rate and you'll realize that, when they need to be, Kansans can be quite sophisticated.  Most farms nowadays are not Mom-and-Pop 40 acres and a mule, they are highly sophisticated "agribusinesses" with a very tight (and tenuous) profit margin. 

And yes, I grew up on a combination farm/cattle ranch/horse ranch. 

As for UC Davis, my assumption of kids at California universities is that most of them are middle-class kids whose parents are struggling to get them into decent schools and then struggle some more to pay for four years of tuition, housing, and books.  Young people shouldn't have to start out life with $30,000 in debt and just going to university is a struggle in and of itself--kids should graduate as I did, without a penny to my name but without a penny of debt, either.

Hm, I like that...let's call it the Fresh Start program.  We wipe out all student loan debts and give everybody who graduates a free college education.  We can afford it if we raise taxes on the rich.

Wait...raise taxes on the RICH?  That would be oppressing them...and then they wouldn't give gazillions to the Democratic Party.  Tax the RICH...what the hell was I thinking?

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
I agree with a hell of a lot of this (7.33 / 3)
but I think there are actually three axes instead of two.

One axis is social issues that you mentioned (I'd also include desegregation -- or rather the lack of same, because lets face it huge swaths of this nation are still color coded -- and multiculturalism in general). On the social axis the GOP maintains its base, but the reality is that these issues are, taken individually, mostly losers (i.e. not majority held beliefs, just beliefs that help get the "Christian rightist" vote). For example, the majority of Americans favor abortion rights, and the majority of Americans are happy to go to movies containing outrageous levels of violence and even sex (gasp!) No matter how much bashing there is of "hollywood liberals", Hollywood still vastly outsells whatever Talibangelist crap Pat Robertson is peddling.

Another axis is economic, where both parties have conspired to help enrich the rich, only the Republicans are perpetually disappointed at how quickly the rich are allowed to get richer.

And the final axis -- the verboten topic of American political thought (except for if you're Chalmers Johnson) -- is foreign affairs and militarism. Both parties have always been happy to give a big giant laser-guided shiv to the poor people overseas. Sometimes that benefitted working people here, and nobody seemed to complain too much.

In my opinion, class warfare is no good without taking a swing at the military-industrial complex that is used to help maintain the worldwide power relations between the haves and the have nots.

'What can I do?' - SiCKO


[ Parent ]
The third axis... (7.00 / 3)
...doesn't decide elections in a normal year.

It's a truism in American politics that, unless the nation is in a prolonged (and losing) war, foreign affairs don't decide how people cast their votes.

You are quite correct, however, that attacking the military-industrial-congressional complex (which was Eisenhower's original formulation of it) is an absolute necessity to effect true progressivism.  Dr. King saw that it was necessary to do so, which is why he attacked both the massive military expenditures of the United States and its lack of attention to its poorest people with his aborted Poor People's Campaign.

It's my theory that King was assassinated not because of his opposition to Vietnam, however, but because he was organizing a class revolt (albeit a peaceful one) that, if it had been successful, would have turned the United States into a true democracy.  That would explain why nobody's tried to resurrect his Poor People's Campaign, which reached across geographic and racial barriers:  it's a really good way to get a bullet in your brain.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
Bingo (6.00 / 1)
There is a vested interest on both sides of the aisle to maintain their power over the masses of this country.. and to ensure and maintain they are quiet willing to lie , cheat and steal to keep it that way.

Anyone who challenged that has been dealt with and or neutralized. Some of those have been very public executions. Thats what an assassiantion is.. a public execution as a demostration of power and to scare people back in line.. and guess what it did a damn good job. Now nearly no one is willing to stick their neck out... if they.. they get crushed in a very public manner to ensure complicity again.

This is part of the reason the blogs have risen they way they have.. because there is a sense of cover so they wont be next to get their neck stepped on. However it also gather a lot of like minded folks together in once place as well..and the other side has already demostrated it has no qualms in killing any of us..and thier supportes are already volience prone.. rather interesting its the fundies are so quick to draw anyones blood in the slightest provaction. Thats the one fear i have on the left.. are we strong enough to fight back with when the time for words is over.


[ Parent ]
Did I hear somebody say "bingo"? (0.00 / 0)
Does this mean I win the color television?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
Excellent Work (10.60 / 5)
I'm not sure I agree with all of it - since I think a great deal of what you written presupposes conscious thought, and as an observer of the great Blogtopia (thank you, Skippy) I see as much evidence that those of whom Goldberg and you write don't do much advance thinking at all as the opposite.  Certainly, depth is not the strong suit of any of the names you reference.  Including Jonah Goldberg.

But I do agree with the central argument that I *think* you are advancing - that the Left cannot "win", i.e. truly wrest control from the mindset that has led the country to the abyss, playing rhetorical games and jockeying for political position with Republicans using Republican tactics but missing the forest for the trees:  to wit, that no matter how much it disgusts us, the Republicans at least stand for something.  (A sick twisted greedy inhumane something is still a something.)  So we cannot beat that long-term, since humans are predisposed to be drawn to ideology that is clear and asserted with conviction, at least not until we can agree upon and assert an equally cogent ideology,  born (or possibly reborn) of something more than cute soundbites designed to rally the troops with all the right words and no substance, anyhow.  To that end, I hope you send this to each and every die hard proponent of "framing", an example of the cute yet rather pitiful "forget principles, here's what we need to say to WIN!" thinking that I read your diary as decrying as part of a larger problem with blogs today.

Good job!

You can find my meanderings on all things Black and political at Maat's Feather


I think your portrayal of MSOC's message (10.00 / 1)
is far superior to what I see her message to be.

Your message is pretty simple:  It is not enough to pander to the public.  You must stand for something.

Who doesn't agree with this?  I think that those who obsess over framing do so because they have seen from Reagan onward that merely being correct on the substance isn't enough.  Sadly, packaging DOES matter.

The disagreements I see here are not evidence of a lack of ideology on the Left, but instead are reflective of the fact that the Left subscribes to a variety of ideologies.  The Right tends toward authoritarianism and marching in lockstep.  The Left will never do that.  Those that bemoan this distinction, instead of celebrating it, I think do themselves and the Left an injustice.


[ Parent ]
Well, cityduck, shocking as it may be... (8.40 / 5)

I disagree.

Shanikka has put it more simply and, as usual, more artfully -- but we are actually saying the same thing: exactly what you infer her message to be, is also my message.

"You must stand for something."

Or, as Malcolm X put it, "You have to stand for something of you'll fall for anything."

Which is what I see happening to the ideology-free big Boys of Blogging; seduced by the very Democratic Leadership they initially sought to supplant, they have fallen for the pick-up line: 

"Come on in, boys -- you'll be able to change things far more easily and quickly and substantially from the inside."

And, standing for nothing in particular, they have fallen for the oldest trick in the book and become co-opted. I doubt they even know it yet.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
Strangers with candy (9.00 / 1)
There's a certain degree of naivete at work, i.e., "Wait...you mean these strangers have candy AND they're going to take us for a ride in the country in their windowless van?  Oh boy!"

My take on the so-called "big boys" is that, really, they are small-time operators in a very big game.  They're hustlers who got hustled.

To me, the most controversial part of Maryscott's post is her claim that Moulitsas and Stoller did a bait-and-switch:

Moulitsas and Stoller deliberately misled and misdirected their audiences as they started out on their blogging endeavours, the better to reel in all those alienated, aimless, angry, directionless liberals in America who felt all alone and craved connection with others who felt like them.

In other words, they're con men.

Well, Moulitsas now says the word "liberal" as if he's chewing on a garden slug, but he used the word "liberal" a lot when he was trying to peddle his book, "Crashing the Gate".  DailyKos is NOT a liberal blog, it's a Democratic blog...except when Moulitsas needs to sell books (or get himself some speaking gigs). 

So really, whatever sells, he tells.  For his corporate advertisers, Moulitsas says he's NOT liberal, because we all know that liberals have cooties...and principles...but when he's speaking to liberals, then DailyKos IS a liberal blog.

And no, CityDuck, I wouldn't challenge ME on these facts unless you've researched the issue VERY carefully.  You've been warned.


Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
Oh whatever (7.00 / 3)
Passion is so for weirdos only, maaan. Didn't you get the memo? It's not coool to get all into something anymore. Melodrama is such a turn-off, and worse, it makes us all look bad in the face of People Who Matter.

mbr + dv + woyg

[ Parent ]
um (7.00 / 1)
I can't decide if that should be in the David Spade voice or the Lumberg voice. Oh well.

mbr + dv + woyg

[ Parent ]
< side point > (6.00 / 3)
as a proponent of "framing," at least in the sense that lakoff laid it out, i think there's a difference from recognizing the fact that people think in metaphors, and that the very language - metaphors and words alike - that we use in political speech affects the degree to which it "makes sense" to the listener and the speaker alike.

the cheap sloganeering that passes for framing across the blogosphere, OTOH, is often just hack marketing applied to politics. but the basic point is sound, IMO.

framing is how we understand and voice our principles. whether we're conscious of it or (far more often) not.

< / side point >

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat


[ Parent ]
Fair Comment (7.50 / 2)
I admit that I have never either read Lakoff's work (it's on a long list; I still haven't even gotten to What's the Matter with Kansas? yet) or heard him speak.  But the theory that "people think in metaphors" certainly has validity - indeed this strikes me as simply an extension into linguistics of Jung's theories about collective symbolism.  I do know that most of what I have seen in the Left blogosphere trying to interpret/represent/give life to "framing" is not only bad pop-psychology but insulting to those towards whom it appears to be directed.  We agree completely that "the cheap sloganeering that passes for framing across the blogosphere, OTOH, is often just hack marketing applied to politics."  But more importantly, it reflects an ongoing, extremely dangerous IMO assumption that even Marketing folks know you can only take so far:  to wit, that those who do not affirmatively agree with our message (whatever that is) politically are stupid and have not actually gone through a thought process to reach their own conclusions, such that merely changing a few buzzwords will result in a similar thought process that leads to our desired outcome. I don't think that people are stupid, and while I do think that anyone can be conned/hustled, I don't find that it is consistent with liberal values to be actively trying to hustle those who we want to be in political agreement/coalition with.  Framing as it is spewed in most places is exactly that, IMO:  a cheap pop-psychology hustle.  And not even done by folks who are any good at hustling.

You can find my meanderings on all things Black and political at Maat's Feather

[ Parent ]
it's a pretty short read (6.00 / 1)
the gist of his argument is that people aren't distributed on a political gradient from left to right so much as in posession of both left and right ways of thinking, of seeing the world, more often than not at the same time. biconceptuals, he calls them. so rather than try to split the distance to bring in "swing voters," and accidentally reinforcing those conservative ideas and metaphors in the doing, lakoff argues for instead appealing to those ideas that biconceptuals have that are liberal, so that their own calculus of which aspects of their politics ae most important shift over time.

i agree on being honest about building coalition. better to be straight up about where our common ground is, and where we will deliver on things, than hustle and in so doing set ourselves up for angry backlash or people giving up on politics altogether because of the sense of being used.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat


[ Parent ]
Do you see the contradiction in what you write? (9.00 / 1)
On the one hand you say that the Conservatives achieved success because they subscribed to a deeply held ideology (including, notably, "pro life").  On the other you say that the attitude of "winning is everything" and that there are no deal breakers when it comes to the world of polical negotiation is a "Republican way of thinking."

Which is it?

Personally, I think that there it is important to have an ideology, and no one can doubt that all of the left wing blogs subscribe to a number of shared ideological view.  On the other hand, I think that there is no real benefit to being ideologically uncompromising if it does harm to your causes.

And let's be real here:  The left has MANY causes and MANY are not shared by ALL on the left.  Our side is an umbrella for many communities, many powerless people, many concerns, and there will always be disagreements about how they should be prioritized.


Actually, no. (10.00 / 4)

The Republicans have an ideology they can SELL. The ones who do the selling of the ideology are also the ones who want to win at any cost -- including selling that ideology down the river when it's convenient. But as long as they have the ideology to SELL, they keep winning.

What liberals (and, ideally, Democrats) need is not the "winning is everything" mentality but an HONEST ideology to which they remain faithful. I believe that fidelity to a principled, moral and honest ideology WILL win, in the long run. It might take longer than the Republican way (Vote count didn't turn out the way you wanted? Rig the machines! Buy off the Supreme Court! Intimidate the local officials!) -- but in the end, having stuck to our standards and ethics AND won the battles and the war, and looking over at our desiccated, soulless, miserable opponents will be proof enough that the means matter just as much as the ends.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
Actually, the GOP is at odds with itself (10.00 / 3)
The "social conservatives" are mostly working class folk whose economic interests are NOT served by voting for the Republicans.

The "economic conservatives" are mostly rich folk whose economic interests ARE served by voting for the Republicans.

Every so often, the economic cons have to throw a bone to the social cons, or else the coalition fractures.  That's why Bush vetoed the federal stem cell research bill awhile back, and why the Supreme Court (yes, the Court is partisan!  Gasp!) came out with that God-awful decision on so-called "partial birth abortion".  All scraps to the hungry social con organizers.

The problem is, the current crop of GOP candidates are NOT social cons.  The twice- (or is it thrice-?) married Giuliani is openly pro-choice.  The other candidates have problems with the social cons, as well.  Really, Bush, Junior is NOT a social con; he plays them to get their votes, but I don't think Junior is a True Believer.

The way to win, and to keep a majority for a generation, is one on simple principle that trumps all others.  This principle is embodied by the classic statement of Justice Louis Brandeis:

We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.

It's really as simple as that.  Ask people:  Do you want democracy, or not?  If you want it, then we have to redistribute income in this country.  The federal government needs to be on your side in the fight against the depredations of the rich and against the big corporations.  Maybe people don't know all the facts and figures, but they're smart enough to figure out when Something Ain't Quite Right.  And America, circa 2007, is definitely in a SAQR phase.

Maryscott is right:  It takes longer to get this message across, and to build support for it, but once you win, you win with the support of the people for an actual program of change.  That's powerful, history-changing stuff.

I'll hand it to the Republicans:  they had a vision and they built a movement, even though a good deal of it was built on lies and deception.  And they stuck with that vision year after year, slogging through discouraging years in dogged pursuit of their ultimate goal.

Fortunately for us, the GOP coalition is an unstable isotope that's breaking apart, a lab creation that cannot exist for long in the real world.  I say, let's get out our atom splitter and hasten its half-life.  But we progressives need a vision not just of a world with the GOP out of power, but of what we will do when we get that power.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done. --Justice Louis Brandeis


Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

[ Parent ]
i would restate that (9.33 / 3)
to read, "the democratic party has many causes and many are not shared by all on the left."

the left tends to be fairly coherent, from what i have seen. it's the democratic party that is an ideological basketcase, with leadership that is nearly all in the minority ideologically compared to the rank and file.

being a democrat does not put one on the left. neither does voting for a democrat.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat


[ Parent ]
I'd really like to see some substantiation for this claim. (0.00 / 0)
Because while I agree that being a Democrat is not synomous with being "left" (although it is the Party of the "left" in our two party system), and readily admit that the Democrats have a large umbrella covering people with a spectrum of ideologies on various issues, I have to disagree with the notion that their exists in this country some ideologically monolithic "left." 

Looking just at foreign policy, the "left" in the U.S. includes isolationists and internationalists, anti-globalism anarchists and one-world functionalists, pro-Israel and anti-Israel, etc., etc., etc.

The "left" is defined by discord.  It's a strength and a weakness.

I'm shocked you disagree.


[ Parent ]
Okay girl~! You're on your game now...Exquisite~! (9.67 / 3)
You have begun the conversation upon which the healing of this country rises or falls. You've opened the door to at last begin the dialogue of what liberalism truly is.

I think we're going to have to get really loud and obstreperous about what we will/will not stand for.

Herein begins the revolution. "No", must mean no, "yes", must mean yes. It's really that simple. We must always tell our truth, yes? No dilutions, no compromise. Shame on the double-dippers for whom the end result is merely "winning". Who's winning?
What's gonna happen to them when they "fall down and go boom"? Psssssssst...it's right around that bend, yonder.

We cannot tolerate the banality of the shallow, the self-interested, the greedy, the gamers. This is real life folks! Oh, Jesus, how they bore and infuriate me! It will be up to the likes of MLW to cancel out with a certainty the idea that the BBB are "liberals" by any stretch of the imagination.

You said it best and brilliantly here:

Sorry, boys, but you cannot play at politics the way you play fucking Parcheesi. Sure, you may win a few here and there, but if the idea is to take a Party and make it into a winning machine, there is only one way to do that (one way, that is, if you want to retain any last SHRED of your fucking SOUL):

You have to BELIEVE in something. You have to have principles, values, morals, standards, beliefs -- in other words, pal, you gotta get yourself an IDEOLOGY.

Bravo, Maryscott, bravo~!

"I tire of this banal chat...now is the time on Sprockets when we dance." ~Dieter/SNL


Great stuff! Now... (6.67 / 3)
... stop reading the newspaper and you'll be much better.  Goldberg makes decent points, but the entire argument serves to merely cause another, er, argument that distracts us from the work we should be doing.

To overuse an already overused four-letter word, FUCK what old journalism newspaper columnists think about what progressives are doing with their time.  FUCK what ego-driven pseudo-intellectuals are doing with their websites.  And FUCK concepts like "winning" and "losing" which only succeed in polarizing people who really share much more in common than they are allowed to believe by the thought police in our MSM and dysfunctional political machine.

Is it so hard to focus on restoring quality of life in this country?  It is if we continue to allow ourselves to be mesmerized by the magical politician show.


Paul Willis (9.50 / 2)
I think I agree with you..

If you are saying that people are responding to politicians, their statements, their chraracterization of world events instead of what is obvious ...as in Iraq.

I think to take the Democrats and Republicans seriously is being mesmerized.

I think that the people on these blogs ...all of them are generally responding to MSM and it's reportage of world events rather than really independent informational sources whose voice is much tinyer and therefore less mesmerizing.

MSM still has a hold on everybody because that's all most people on the blogs respond to.

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
MLW as dKos (6.50 / 6)
I am so very irritated, I may have to be sparse for a while. 

Yes, Armando has a bad temper.  Yes, people cannot see past that when dealing with an innocuous reply on a thread.

Yes, he gets paranoid and used the "all" to describe the one and that was wrong.

But how the fuck is any different then PaintyCat going after everything Maryscott posted at dKos by bringing unrelated shit into her diaries or comments?

The initial comment he made was a dissenting viewpoint, but politely said.

So, its ok to attack an unpopular poster and derail a great diary into a big fat critique of that poster?  When he didn't fire the first shot?

What was the point of his attacker other then to start this very war?

Sometimes I think we are not so very different as I would like to think we are.

Stepping away until cooler minds prevail....

mine is not cool at the moment.


"Attack" is a serious word (6.00 / 1)
it requires a standard

where was the "attack"?

-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
intentionally provacative (6.67 / 3)
is an unwarranted attack in my book.

But as she said about him, everyone knows how nice and kind and gentle her tone has been around here lately...

which many thought was funny.

So, when he made his comments & was immediately asked who mentioned him w/links to another thread & an entirely unrelated argument to make him look bad, that is an attack to me.

And apparently to him.

Thats my opinion.  It does not require being held to a standard.

It was utter fucking bullshit.  His comment would have gone completely unnoticed, or perhaps there would have been discussion about its content had it not been derailed by someone looking to make him look like an asshole by digging up old unrelated shit.



[ Parent ]
cops (5.00 / 3)
do you run to the cops over utter bullshit?  I don't.  It has to be criminal.

Utter bullshit... um, made of words, to be handled by words... you really think other people, you, me, MSOC, are supposed to rush in and protect him from utter bullshit?

I have OFTEN posted "let Armando post" message here over time, often, did that count for anything?  no, because it's a law enforcement issue and by golly I let crimes through.

Well this time I was called a cultist before I even saw the dig.

The dig to me was fair play because Armando said the only reason he posted, etc, was, yada yada, and it didn't hold this time.

as always I encourage Armando to post here and indeed, that's why I noticed his comments on the matter which I found interesting.

We need to discriminate between things that bug us, and things that are actually actionable, where one can demand admins to act.  Saying, "ha ha, your reason for being here doesn't hold" reflect on 5hearts as well as searing a burning hole in Armando (I guess), so readers can decide for themselves how it reflects on people.

Don't you see... Armando says that 5hearts can act for me, that's fucked. Meanwhile, in pyrrho land I don't even blame Armando for the fact that his JUMPING into threads and bringing up the peeder thing off topic for days is EXACTLY how that mess rose to me being banned.

have I whined?  in public?  in private?  did I beg protection?  kos called me an asshole on an objective basis, did I demand Armando clarify I'm not... did I give a fuck?

no, and I don't give a fuck if someone has cross words for Armando either.

If it's not a threat, or a violation of privacy, you'll be hard pressed to convince me I should care, that my caring would HELP.  I think it would hurt the situation.

Clamping down on that crap does not help.  Ignoring it does. But instead, Armando tries a weak and gross generalization that I find offensive.

Armando, I love you, but you played a big role in the way dkos went down and what you complain about now.  But now MLW does not that quite that sickness, it has a different characteristic, instead of a mass banning, we got a mass exodus from people that were not protected enough.  DIFFERENT PROBLEM ALTOGETHER.

I seriously, dude, want you to figure out what your role meant and did at dkos... I want you to remember when you cleaned up dkos it got fucking messier, like I said it would.  Sort that shit out before you preach like you know what's best.

I ASSURE YOU that it is best to let 5 have her say and let other people take her for what she writes, rather than whatever nuts thing you think we are supposed to do in that kind of a case.


-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
i expect no one to (8.00 / 1)
do anything, nor did *I* do anything, except call hypocracy.

I do believe for one who always claims that some get unfair treatment here, or at least preferential, that she did & expected the same.

If I actually read half of what Armando writes, (and I do not) or see him jump unrelated things into a thread, I would & have called him on it.

It ain't cop-worthy, but fixations and 30-40 comments spiraling off a valid thread bugs the shit out of me.

I think that taking it personally "he insulted me" was probably overboard on your part, but I get it hurt your feelings.  That part sucked.

But, I am entitled to speak my opinion about the inequity or hypocracy as I saw it, as anyone has spoken theirs about any aspect of this here.

You are a far better debater than I, I concede, Py, but the cop-calling stuff is putting words in my mouth.

I never played the admin(cop) card, in fact I went to my non-admin name to respond as user today to differentiate the role.

Everyone knows wolfgirl is me, as other user.


[ Parent ]
ps: (0.00 / 0)
just as he could have responded better, you also could have said "not me this time" and so could we all, and his words would have been "cauterized" as you so called it.

Physics and equal and opposite reactions.

Physics also says there is inertia until there is a catalyst.

But simple logic says I rest my case on this thread.

peace out.


[ Parent ]
I disagree (6.00 / 1)
because I did that previously, calling the likes of me a cult member indiscriminantly needs to be responded to, eventually, earnestly.  NOTE: I'm not asking anyone ELSE to do anything, I spoke directly to Armando about his comment and attitude.

-pyrrho-

[ Parent ]
And yet you say nothing to asnyone else (0.50 / 2)
Making my point.

The failure of THIS community is in NOT calling out the HATE.


[ Parent ]
How about something more productive (3.00 / 1)
I was banned at daily kos and have had no Admin role there since June of 2006.

There is nothing I can do about daily kos.

You, on the other hand, can help FIX MLW.

When you write:

Armando, I love you, but you played a big role in the way dkos went down and what you complain about now.  But now MLW does not that quite that sickness, it has a different characteristic, instead of a mass banning, we got a mass exodus from people that were not protected enough.

That is simply a pathetic defensive, unthinking response. NOT PROTECTED enough? Here you are "protecting" the community. MSOC and MLW has been complaining about DKos for a long time, long before the bannings.

Was the problem she was NOT PROTECTED ENOUGH? You are blinded into hypocrisy.

Daily Kos is a terrible community. I tell you why MLW is also, imo, and you want to talk about what I did at daily kos. Suppose I accepted all you say. Hell I do. Now is the time for you NOT to repeat my mistakes here at MLW.

As far as I can tell, you are MSOC's DH.


[ Parent ]
Here's my response to you, Armando (2.00 / 1)
(Notice that the comment field is blank)


Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

[ Parent ]
oh (0.00 / 0)
except as MSOCs DH, I conspire with her to refrain from banning people 99/100.

so there is that different.  My point and to clarify... first, clarify... I'm talking about Blue House Diaries, our exodus because we do not take your approach and instead apply the "collection of individuals" approach to "community".

And my point: when you did have admin powers and with the best of intentions used them as you see fit, the result was not as you still say it would be if we took the same approach here of adopting "responsibility" for what individuals say.

I welcome your criticism, but not the cult accusation, that is asinine.  If it was a cult of MSOC you would be a sacred calf from the way she has treated you and even instructed people to give you the space to be Armando.


-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
For the record (2.00 / 4)
For the 3rd time, Cult of MLW, NOT MSOC.

It's an enemy of my enemy thing.

It's there if you want to see it.

I am talkng about the COMMUNITY BTW, not the Admins. Who are not steeped in hate.


[ Parent ]
Thankfully you're here (3.50 / 2)
to spread some love.

By your example here, we'll learn the way.


[ Parent ]
5heart's comment (6.33 / 3)
throwing one's words in one's face is not an attack.

in fact, it's supposed to be an opportunity.  He then responds to one person by comments insulting to far more than one person.  Like it is my responsibility to give a damn what 5hearts says.

she's already pissed me off too (no hard feeling 5 :) so I already know how not to care what she thinks of MLW or me.

I'm interesting still in her case, and also Armando.  Whatever drama goes on between them I don't care. Armando should not repond to that at all unless he has a small witty comeback which cauterizes the wound, if there was one.

I would have just said, "different reason this time" myself.

Some people find this cold of me, not conducive to safe environments I admit. They are wrong imo, the safest thing is my way.

-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
not your business (6.00 / 3)
what she says or does, but everyone's business hwat he does.

She calls double standard around here all the time, and yet is doing it herself.


[ Parent ]
per the 3 (9.00 / 1)
do you disagree that Py corrected how armando should have spoke, while not correcting how 5 hearts should have spoken?

or do you disagree that 5 hearts accuses you & mlw of double standards all the time?

Each statement is entirely accurate. Links on demand .


[ Parent ]
not my business (4.00 / 1)
I make it my business when she says something about me.

see, that's consistent, and when Armando says something about me... I make it my business.


-pyrrho-


[ Parent ]
Exactly my philosophy (4.50 / 2)
I take it you felt alluded to in the Cult of MLW comment.

You were.

You were also alluded to when I asked that all my comment be deleted to avoid hijakcing this thread.


[ Parent ]
Cult (7.50 / 2)
I think it's a kind of semi cult. It's too goofy to be a cult.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

[ Parent ]
This diary is not supposed to about Armando (9.50 / 4)
Jeepers.

Would everybody please just stop taking the bait and focus on what Maryscott has written?  Let Armando pitch his fit and let the one true response be a stony, studied silence.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
What a perfectly obtuse comment (0.00 / 1)
You really do turn offf your brain when it comes to this community.

It is amazing.


[ Parent ]
why do you say that 5hearts... (0.00 / 0)
... represents this community?  5hearts is an individual and represents this community only insofar as she is an individual and is allowed to be so, forgiven even a transgression or two, and I don't mean transgressions against you.

-pyrrho-

[ Parent ]
yeah, I wonder why too (10.00 / 2)
FOR THE RECORD: I hereby abdicate any (implied or actual)responsibility for representing anything other than myself and the words that I put down.

Even if I wanted to represent this "community" I would have not idea one what/who/when I was supposed to be re-presenting.

Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
That your comment was trollish is obvious (8.00 / 1)
to any fair and sentient person.

My rebuke is not to you, I gave you a zero for that.

My rebuke os for the Community falling down in its moderation role.

Neither you nor pyrrho seem to understand the basic point.


[ Parent ]
It is not 5 Hearts I am criticizing (8.00 / 2)
Think about it.

IT is the approbation by silence of the HATE.

You simply do not really understand what community moderation means. It means more than bannings.

You just don't get it.


[ Parent ]
I GET THAT (7.00 / 1)
what I don't get is why you think I'm  bound to get in the middle of a fight you've had... I don't get that, actively refuse to get it, we are individuals.  The protected little place that would silence people angering you (the joke of that being that you are well able to defend yourself AND prone to go to far yourself) cannot exist, it cannot exist.  If protected, it would be unfree, not a place to speak freely, so we have this terrible terrible world where people say whatever they want to each other.

-pyrrho-

[ Parent ]
You make my point (1.50 / 2)
You are against community moderation period.

You see NO role for the community to moderate the site.

IT is not because it was an attack on me you dipshit, it is about the community countenancing behavior it should not.

You have always been a fool about this issue. always.

 


[ Parent ]
Dipshit? (2.00 / 2)
I know you must not expect to be taken seriously, but comments like this are so dim-witted that you should not hope to get even a tiny drama fix in response.

Your efforts at theatrics here are now slap stick rather than Shakespearian. If you have even a shred of dignity left, disappear. It’s getting difficult to watch you humiliate yourself over and over.

Surly you can find other places to act the bully, the internets are a big place, but you really have used this one up.


[ Parent ]
You took my bait of course (11.00 / 1)
There is no doubt that I desrved the upbraid you gave me for using "dipshit."

My point exactly. That weould be called community moderation.

You argue my point and disagree with pyrrho's.

Unwittingly of course.

As always, I am blessed in my enemies.

BTW, who were you at daily kos? Why do you refuse to answer that question? Is it because the record there will prove that you have been lying about me here? 


[ Parent ]
a thought to ponder... (3.67 / 3)
I saw that little tiff last night...and my thoughts are that when things get that 'nasty', maybe someone should just start deleteing all the 'shit' so that the nastiness can't continue. I'm not saying to delete all discussions that become contentious, but just the ones where people start being so inflammatory and calling others names, hurling insults, etc.  Just delete it all and let it be gone.  I don't know, just a thought.

Have a better day Diane!  Don't sweat the small stuff!  xoxo


[ Parent ]
Thanks Tom (8.00 / 3)
thats why I signed off last night, and why I am about to now.

Wanna bash an individual?  Start your own essay I say, don;t shit in someone else's diary & derail the whole discussion.


[ Parent ]
less than 10 words (6.00 / 2)
I posted in the original comment. When I became the focus of inane "this has no place here" blitherings, I checked out. Hard to tell what is going to "derail" a discussion around here, but in this case, I had a fuckload of help.

Never miss a good chance to shut up.
~~T e x a s B i x B e n d e r, from "Don't Squat with Yer Spurs On"


[ Parent ]
Call it Unfair (8.00 / 3)
But I expect more from people I respect than those I do not.  Totally unfair.  I admit this.  But there you have it.

Paintykat? Who the fuck is that? Someone who has distinguished him/herself solely by their ability to be disagreeable. That's pretty much it.  Certainly, I see no evidence of greatness, or even sharp intellect, from that source that would balance my personal scales against that person's evil-tempered behavior. 

That is not true for the MSOC's and Armando's or Diane's of the world.  I do not like the fact that Armando's initial comment was responded to in the fashion it was - it struck me as an unnecessary dig.  (I guess maybe I should have been clear that I did consider it a shit-stir.  OK I'm doing it now.  It was stirring shit, and not cool.)  On the other hand, the *response* to that shit-stir and demand for deletion (which I don't respect and will not honor; this is not the first person who has asked me to delete something, and won't be the last, and so far neither has gotten that outcome from me because I find the very request an emotional overreaction that I won't encourage in anyone, particularly not when it has the ability to destroy other people's written thoughts in the process) is no better, nor is it excused.  But again, as I said, I'm an unfair person. I expect better from those I respect.  Always have, always will.

And in case it was not clear, I respect Armando.  I respect his intellect, and his rhetorical skill, and his knowledge.  But I do not respect the manner in which he does the same thing which he rightfully complains about from others:  lumping the individuals who make up the collective into the same dissed category, just because they are part of the collective.  He knows better.  We all know better.  Or we should.

All IMO and YMMV.

You can find my meanderings on all things Black and political at Maat's Feather


[ Parent ]
So do I Shannika (0.00 / 0)
I expect more from you and MSOC and pyrrho and mirrim and  most of the people here.

You make my point.


[ Parent ]
His first was polite (6.75 / 4)
and I'll admit that fiver's (in her usual fashion) was snarky. Anybody who has been around at all knows that's her way, though, and ignores it.

Armando didn't have to respond. Or start demanding that his posts be deleted.

"These are not the droids you're looking for..."

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
"didn't have to respond" (8.00 / 2)
oh for fucks sakes.

Had it been one of the posters he has been bashing & arguing with all week, I could dismiss it.

Her out of the clear blue sky with LINKS crap was wrong, period.

One persons snark is another persons rude asshole, I guess.  So, we should just all consider the source and only call HIM on it, not her.

Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick, the broader point here is that there was an unequal response to two people both being jerks.

He asked it be deleted to avoid exactly what happened, and while deleting is wrong I can surely see why he wanted that now.

I give fucking up!!!!!


[ Parent ]
Wonderfully stated (0.00 / 0)
Pyrrho's obtuseness on this issue is what I call the checking of thinkling at the door.

I apologize to you personally as you have said what needed to be said.

So did Shannika.

Pyrrho is Exhibit A of what I am talking about as to the COMMUNITY.


[ Parent ]
You have managed to ruin this discusssion. (4.33 / 3)

Thank you.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

[ Parent ]
You must be joking (7.00 / 1)
What discussion? I suppose I responded to myself?

You are simply blinded as is pyrrho to what your community has become.

Let's face it, you love to point out the stalk in daily kos' eye and HATE to have the failings of your community pointed out.

Let's face it, your post was an expression of hate that latched onto falsehoods to express your hate.

And your community revelled in the hate, INCLUDING the attack on me by 5 Hearts that you countenanced.

Your community is a bad one and you will do nothing to try and guide it to a better place.

It is a shame.


[ Parent ]
Armando, if you bother reading this... (8.00 / 2)

If you are so blind as to not see the part you have played in escalating every. single. flame war in which you are involved, then there is nothing I can say to make you see it.

Yes, others have also played their parts. Large ones, including in this particular debacle.

But YOU, my friend, have absolutely been the common denominator in every flame war in which you've been involved. It's simple math. Just as I am the common denominator in every single flame war in which I have been involved.

Difference being, I have learned to at least step back and ask myself, "What part have I played in this? Where am I at fault? How could I have done this differently? What should I do the NEXT time something like this occurs?"

Most of the time, I fail to heed my own advice, or fail to heed it properly. But having done this self-searching inventory, I give myself a CHANCE at improving -- incrementally, to be sure -- but I don't think there's a soul alive who's witnessed my blogging career from its beginning to today who can say that I have not improved immensely. Why is that, do you suppose?

I listen to criticism from people I respect. I take a personal inventory from time to time. I learn from my mistakes (hopefully) and I try not to repeat them.

You do the same thing over and over and over, expecting everyone around you to change to suit you, yet for the most part you do not change, yourself. To be sure, you have certainly adapted to different environments; you do not, for example, behave as you did at DKos -- but then, you cannot, for there you were virtually omnipotent -- for all the complaints against you, no one could make you change. At other sites, you have to at least present a modicum of propriety, else face expulsion -- except, of course, at MLW, where you have free rein to behave as abominably as you wish.

Am I YOUR enabler? You accuse me of shortsightedness with regard to others -- well, believe me, Armando, I take no small amount of shit from others in email and commentary for what THEY see as my unforgivable tolerance of YOUR behaviour.

5hearts started this. I am aware of that. You, on the other hand, could have dismissed her comment -- or, better yet, ignored it. Instead, you chose to turn this discussion into your own personal battlefield -- as is so often the case when you feel slighted, insulted, abused or injured by someone's commentary.

Walk. the fuck. away. It's a lesson I've had a hell of a time internalising, but as I said, incrementally, it's becoming a default response. And believe me, it's yielding far better results than the impulse to respond to each and every assholish remark directed at me. And freed me up for more appropriate and relevant and productive uses of my time and energy.

You waste SO much of your time, energy and your brilliant mind on this utter bullshit, Armando. I BEG you to consider that this is the umpteenth time someone you respect, who respects you, has told you this. There is truth and merit in this criticism, and it comes from love. And yes, not a little frustrated rage.

My comment above was made in haste and inaccurate; of COURSE you alone are not responsible for the ruins of this discussion; but I expect better of you than I do of others -- and thus am continually disappointed, for you continually insist on rolling in the mud with those who deliberately bait you with that express result in mind. THEY WANT EXACTLY WHAT YOU GIVE THEM.

Please, start disappointing THEM instead of your friends.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
MSOC (2.00 / 2)
This took up less than an hour of my time total.

I dropped in a comment with a link where I link to you.

And this community and YOU countenanced an attack on me.

And I expressed an opinion I have shared with you privately and publically.

As you know, I do not paritcipate here. And you know the reason why.

Quite immodestly, I think it is YOUR loss, not mine.

You'll see me doing substance at Talk Left.

I read MLW because I am interested in YOU, in pyrrho, in Shannika, in Diane, in Caliberal. Even in TBC and the Curmedgette. You write things I want to read. And I do.

My comment is about your community and what it has become. And I do not blame you only. I think the entire community is at fault.

Just as I must take my share of the blame, as pyrrho rightly points out, for the crappy community dkos has become.

If I could undo what I did at dkos, I would.

Frankly, Eugene AND pyrrho convinced me of that in December when I wrote a "DKos Sucks" diary.

As you know, my life is an open book now and thus, to the degree I had restraints, they are gone.

I give my honest opinions without filter where I can. Talk Left is a civil, non-profane site, so I do not so much there on things like this. Indeed, we do not discuss this type of thing there.

That I take an hour to lambast MLW is due to the fact that I KNOW it can and should be better. Because of the RESPECT I have for the individuals involved here. The people here are top notch, if they get back to thinking, and leave the detesting to the side.

Do issues. Do politics too. But don't do hate.


[ Parent ]
About my "Thank you" rating of 5hearts's first incendiary comment: (8.00 / 1)

Total mistake. NO idea why I did that. MASSIVE mistake. I neither agreed with what she said, nor appreciated it. I cannot for the life of me remember what I was thinking, or if I meant to rate it something else, or WHAT. And I've considered CHANGING the rating a hundred times, and keep coming to the conclusion that it would be pointless, at this point -- just a massive fuck up.

I wish I could take it back, but I can't. I could, I suppose, post THIS as an explanation. I guess I will. Because honest to god, there was nothing remotely worth THANKING for in that comment. I apologise for stoking the flames with my rating. I should just stop rating anything but prima facie excellence or idiocy.

I've gone over it and over it, and I simply cannot fathom why I rated that comment as I did, and I'm betting if I hadn't, much of this could have been avoided. So, once again, I find myself in the position of First Asshole in Charge.

I apologise profusely to you, Armando, for rating 5hearts's inappropriate and rude comment the way I did -- and I apologise to the community at large for my role in fucking up what ought to have been a discussion of the essay, not this damne flame war.

I will be posting this in the Daily Rant and Open Thread with links, because who the hell expects reasonable people to plough through this entire thread again to get to this comment?

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
I'm getting uneasy feelings again about the "left" (7.33 / 3)
There is a contradiction that the left faces and for over a hundred years it has not been dealt with.

And that is that lefty ideas are not conducive to creating the infrastructure by which they can be put into practice in government.

Too many people who identify themselves as the left are unwilling to join coalitions.  Too many are not willing to on a tactical issue speak with one voice enough to accomplish what needs to be done.

Too many who do advocate for speaking with one voice have only one model - the model of corporate marketing and corporate communications.  The legislative model of non-accountability.

Too few who seek to get ideas into politics are willing to promote those ideas among ordinary people, especially the "working class" they are always talking about.  They make a foray, get minor opposition, and come back with their tail between their legs and whimpering.  So much for those ideas ever getting a hearing.

There are no lefty ideas in American politics because there are no lefty politicians (I mean real lefty in the European sense) in American politics.  There are no lefty politicians because they don't run.  They don't run because they to not want to go to the expense of mounting a campaign and fail to win.  They don't need a third mortgage on their house.

There is a split going on in the anti-Bush movement between folks who want to win and folks who want to win with policies that will actually do some good.

What those who want to win like the rightwing machine did are saying is that they want to win through Stalinist tactics.  Because, the right took their tactics - unity of message, propaganda, parallel party and government structures, complicity in guilt as a means of unifying an elite, warmongering, and invasion of citizen privacy - from Stalin's USSR out of fear that the Soviets would win because they had the better tactics.  Tactic envy.  Bushism is a two-bit variant of Stalinism, and it is instructive that so many neo-cons are experts on the Soviet Union.

We desperately need a new tactical model for winning in a way that promotes liberty, democracy, and equality.  We are deperately in need of some new ideas for dealing with the contradiction on the left.

Want a third party -- 50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts -- Go get 'em


Kos = Battering Ram (8.00 / 2)
To use Kos' metaphor of Crashing The Gate....Kos is a great battering ram.  He's useful for crashing the gate, but absolutely useless once we're inside the castle!

Seriously, Daily Kos definitely has their place in the blogosphere.  In fact, Kos often states it's about winning elections for him.  That's fine, he can be the political center.  But there are other and BETTER places for the policy discussions.  It's irritating, to put it nicely, to see him crowned the king of the entire left netroots.  Because again--he's about winning, not about governing.  And in that respect, he's just like the GOP!

-8.25, -6.92


fight the good fight ... (10.50 / 2)
Winning, losing--- these relate to what's too often missing from the political " Left "-an appreciation for the necessity of a resistance, a struggle, a fight---to use a word some liberals seem to consider kind of dirty. 

  Something rather difficult in understanding is required of us--- we have to defend principles against people who often have none and we have to do that while keeping in mind that our adversaries are very determined, very dangerous, and human not "pure evil".  Yes, it's important that we unite and organize to thwart their quests for the abuse of power, and yes, that means a fight.  But we have to bear in mind that it must not imply the annihilation of  the followers of  unscrupulous social dominators. 

  Something happened to the Flower Children of  the Sixties.  Some grew up to be right-wing authoritarians, some to be social dominators, and many of  the remainder, already inclined to "drop out" of social activism, eschewed politics altogether.  That left a tiny minority of these people of  Peace & Love still politically engaged against the prevailing authoritarian currents which followed.

Dropping out entails something very explicit: it means ceding control to others who are driven and unscrupulous because they will take and abuse power unless they are denied it by a committed and organized resistance. 

  Another disastrous temptation is to give in to a feeling of fatalist doom which imagines that the only issue from these circumstances is the complete collapse of authority, of  order itself---a view which says we have to accept an inevitable ground-razing debacle after  which we're supposed to think that things can be rebuilt better "from scratch".  That, dear friends, is one of the worst and most dangerous delusions of all to fall victim to.  To suppose that we are better off scrapping civilization---i.e. standing by and allowing it to fail--- and then "starting over fresh" is sheer folly.  Nothing supports the belief that the positive elements still present today would survive or be likely to be easily recoverable from the rubble.  The most likely result is that the very worst elements would find unequalled  opportunities to advance and defeat the much of what was still beneficial in any and every dreamy scenario of "scrapping it all and starting over." 

  If resigning from the defense of a genuine idea of the common good merely ensures the continuation of corrupt and destructive power-abuse, and if hoping for a ground-clearing tidal-wave to eventually sweep away everything--- the good with the bad--- as though the aftermath would present a fresh occasion free of the inherent frustrations of making a working, liveable society---if that is,  in its turn, also a delusion, then the only sane and practical course is to carry on methodically defending and trying to preserve the many immense hard-won gains which society has enjoyed while at the same time consistently opposing and beating the powerful efforts of the unscrupulous to seize and wield power in selfish and destructive ways.

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.


You miss the mark (6.00 / 3)
when you attack Stoller over this piece IMO.  Unlike Markos, Stoller posts at a political strategy blog which hasn't changed its focus over the years -- it's ALWAYS been a political strategy blog.  I read Stoller's Norquist comment when it was posted, and it was OBVIOUS that he was referring to Norquist's strategic messaging ability and his ability to keep party members in line, NOT his political beliefs.  Why should he have to apologize for or "explain" his actions when they were clear in the first place?

As for speaking for the Netroots, why shouldn't he?  He's lucky enough to have a mouthpiece, and as far as I'm concerned nothing he said went against anything I know of the Netroots.  What part exactly did you object to -- the part where he says we respect ideas?  The part where he says we don't try to stay above the fray?  There's a disconnect here on your part, and I don't think Stoller deserved those comments.

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future


Winning Isn't Everything | 156 comments


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