BREAKING: Markos Upholds Ban on MSOC

Anger is powerful, effective, and you had every right to be angry.

But you know that its those insults, "rude" and "ultimately hostile" that people pick up on and point to as evidence that you're unbalanced, or uncivil, or whatever the complaint of the day is. 

You're insistence on not being polite to the infinite degree at all times is all people need to come in after you.

By all means don't change how you write, but, well, i just wanted to say that I saw clearly where the divide came from.  Those of us that support you see the reason and the justification and empathize, cause Markos really is rude and hostile.  Your detractors see you getting overly enthusiastic about words on a screen and scream 'bad apple! the internets is spoiled!' and subsequently organize against you.

This is a rather scary time to live in isn't it?

But that's the problem with the internets -- everyone reads with tone, and not necessarily the tone the writer meant.  It happens to me all the time. 

Obama 2012.  Because he didn't piss off enough people the first time around.

I think your letter in response - the last one you sent him - is a good one. It's fair, honest, but free of animus. I don't think the ban was right. But now that it seems final, maybe it can be an opportunity for you to develop your own voice without worrying what the Kossacks might think - something that I think has been nagging at much of your writing there for a while now.

You're absolutely right that the rules are unevenly applied there. Last night I got in a long and fraught argument with MissLaura over whether DHinMI outed some people, and after a while it became clear to me that it was a useless conversation - even if I could prove my case, what would it change? What would it accomplish? It's no longer about the principle of the matter, if it ever had been; now it's really just about loyalties and who will defend who no matter what the circumstances or facts. When such a situation develops, it's little more than a huge flashing neon sign that reads "move on."

And while I'll continue to write at dKos for as long as I can escape the ban squads, I'm done with the meta. It's pointless now. Trench warfare. Verdun and Passchendaele. Time to stick to the stuff that really moves me.

Anyhow. I think someday you'll look back and while noting the unfairness of the ban, you'll also see it was when a sort of weight was lifted. You don't need them, you haven't for a while. Go your own way. Find what you want to do and how you believe it should be done and stick to it.

The cards are being lined up, the fix is in, the voices that might complain are being moved out of the picture.  Any surprise that after one debate they're trying to run Gravel off?  Remember how Dean messed things up last time, by simply speaking straight and unfiltered to average Democrats and independents?  Not going to be allowed to happen again.

A few of us will be waiting with another set of answers at the end of Disillusionment Lane.

I had just posted here a few days ago that you had been careful enough not to be tripped up on a technicality and...

Anyway things went bad in the month or so before Yearly Kos 1. The person changed.

What's going on is that this veil we have in online existence allows people's public images to grow and distort wildly in disproportion to who they actually are and what they can actually sustain. Media exposure does that even more, however, usually media exposure is limited to those who have earned it in sustainable real-life ways. Those who haven't often end up like lottery winners, with (as you quoted my cousin saying) their personal narratives collapsing.

So in this case the individual whose imaginary persona we lifted to dizzying heights didn't have the stature within to maintain it. And people in that situation get lost and start damaging things randomly; they don't see or appreciate what they have; they read and believe their own fantasies that are repeated by others in a faux-validative manner. And as times get rough they cling harder to the illusion and start acting out.

The photo of him with his newborn was funny. Rather than proud papa, he looked ashen and seemed to express..."How am I going to feed this thing?"

I guess the primary difference between you and him in this respect is that you attack yourself under those circumstances while he attacks others. Yours is a far more forgivable misfortune. And I think you've woken up from the dream-turned-nightmare and are in good enough shape with your feet on the ground.

I have been rich and poor, and been in dreamworlds and in touch with reality. When you're rich and in a dreamworld, you'll shortly be poor and in touch with reality.

It's perfectly ironic that at the moment Kos became the Democratic Party's quintessential spin enforcer; he has managed to erode his audience to the spot where he captures the identical amount of interest the Republican Party's uber spin enforcer blog maintains.

Except to the True Believers, neither place is interesting. Kos's problem is that there are fewer strict dogma Democrats willing to stand by rules for the sake of rules, making a continuation of even this level of interest unlikely.

As I say, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
 

Your rating without commment simply says that the reality of the situation upsets you. Such is the nature of blind adoration, I suppose.

Peeder here writes:

"The photo of him with his newborn was funny. Rather than proud papa, he looked ashen and seemed to express..."How am I going to feed this thing?""

And is showered with positive ratings.

Are NONE of you bothered by Peeder's offensive use of Kos' child in his little snide comment?

For the record, Kos banned me too.

But I will never adopt this enemy of my enemy approach that is rampant and ugly here.

This thread is becoming a mirror image of the hatefilled thread at daily kos.

Really sad and rather disgusting imo.

HOWEVER...

I've never agreed with the criticism of people who bring my family into things.

I bring my family into things. Therefore, they are "fair game." I don't really see the egregious nature of the offense others see when people bring my family into it. I appreciate the thought behind the defense of me, but I think it's missplaced.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

You do not have the ability to make your family fair game. No one does.

You are utterly wrong in this comment.

What do you think of this enemy of my enemy approach your blog community has adopted?

Does it trouble you at all?

Daily Kos has become a mindless groupthink rah rah Dems site.

MLW has become a mindless groupthink hate Daily Kos site. And frankly MSOC, you seem to be reveling in it.

It is a terrible shame.

Anyway, thanks for keeping the community on its toes here. Groupthink and a mob mentality against those with a different perspective can happen anywhere. It's important to have that pointed out. And here at MLW you won't be banned for it.

Intrepid Liberal Journal

Is it just possible that you have come to the conclusion that this has become a "mindless groupthink hate Daily Kos site" because that's all you ever read here? In a scientific study, that would be called selection bias. Or anecdotal experience.

Frankly, the majority of the "hatefilled" rants I've seen in this thread and others have either been posted by people who have come over here from DKos---people who have never before, or only seldom, posted here---solely for the purpose of telling Maryscott how wrong she is and what a bad person she is (two different things, I think you'll agree); or by people standing up to, and reacting to, such posts. Maybe they're a little vehement, but they've got her back, as any good friend would do.

The "drop-ins" are posting here because they figure she won't see it over there, and because they know damned good and well that because of her own stated policy about banning, they can do so here with impunity. I would suggest you check and see how many people Kos and his admins have banned for having the temerity to criticise one of the in-crowd. Oh, that's right, you can't; you signed off from there. Why may or may not be relevant right now.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)

I always reserve the right to defend myself.

I do not post here in a general way because I am detested here and face a constant barrage of attacks, always uprated by the way, and I know MSOC does not like me to fire back as I would normally do.

BTW, if you read me as defending daily kos, a site I condemn as filled with utter mindless stupidity from its members, then you do not read me very carefully. Unfgortunatelty, I find much of the same here as I document in my comments in this thread.

If you think I do not discuss substance, then I suggest you read me at Talk Left and see if I EVER do meta there.

I really do not a lecture from this site about sticking to subtance.  It is entirely laughable that you attempt it.

BTW, you seem not know why I am no longer at daily kos, but it is of no moment.

In my comment about your no longer being at DKos, I said exactly what I meant. Not being privy to all the details of the situation, I simply declined to speculate, merely noting that for that reason you might no longer have access to certain data.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)

MLW is a mini-DKOS now and that is obvious to any unbiased person.

As a volunteer contributor you should be trreated better than a respectable business would normally treat its paying customers.

I didn't read Peeder's comment until just now.  Sorry, I have to work and so I'm just skimming threads during work breaks.  I'm not going to rate it, as I'm not really a fan of numerical ratings; I prefer to express myself with words, not numbers.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

Second, Kos exploits his kids, hides behind them as an excuse for his incompetence then merchandises them for profit. Kos made them game, the observation of his engagement with them during their exploitation is also fair game.

Third, you invented the hate at Kos which spilled into this place. You wallowed in it, when it erupted it you stoked the flames. How dare you come here, hurling insults about with a pretense that you are above it all, when this shit is what live for.

Sanctimonious hypocrite.

I objected to him doing so strongly in the comments at Dkos.  It is the mark of an abuser when he treats his children as merely an extension of himself, denying them the choice of such exposure or not.

Or, maybe he is using them as a tax write off.  Advertising, you know.

Either way it is abhorant.

I think that Markos really, really, really wants to be a "Political Advisor".  THAT is his dream job.  At some point, after he has buried Kkos in the Democratic party, he will give it up, move back to DC and become the very thing he rants about.

Mark my words.....

Mary Scott, move on now.  You have so much more of a leadership role to play ahead of you.  Ideas are worth fighting over not insults.

Hey, in the end, even Armando feels comfortable here.  Can't be all bad.

It is the mark of an abuser when he treats his children as merely an extension of himself, denying them the choice of such exposure or not.

Do anyone besides me think that this kind of comment is just a tiny bit over the top?  Especially when made on a site where the proprietor posts pictures of her kid (who has also been discussed in articles about her).

C'mon.  This kind of demonization is foolish.

Stop with the stupid personal attacks against each other. All of you doing it either here or Daily Kos against one side or the other should be ashamed of yourselves. It's disgraceful behavior.

I value a woman's instinct in such matters. Sherlock Holmes

So it is not ironic because not everyone writing here is in the MSOC fan club.

why do people assume that... do they really only go to establishments as a sign of fandom for the proprieter? watch only those shows where they worship the producer? only those channels where they think highly of the executive staff?

why do you assume that NOBODY approves of MSOC?

-pyrrho-

I really know we just don't need to go there.

-pyrrho-

This is a significant piece of the puzzle in understanding why this person's mental state has shifted and how this has, yes very personally, affected many people who used his service. Part of the objective of this essay is trying to understand just that.

It's not that "Power Corrupts" as much as it is "Powerlessness makes for desperation." Moulitsas has very little actual power, only over people's posting ability on his site. And as always, when you grasp it you lose it.

Men and women do change when they become parents, or at least their focus in life changes.  They start thinking about providing for their children, which can make them more conservative, more cautious, and more willing to make compromises (especially if they weren't all that principled in the first place).

I believe that was what Peeder was trying to express with his comment, but the point could have been put across somewhat differently and yet still made.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

I'm surprised he was so nasty. If he wants to be a politico, he needs to say things politely. Even if there *is* a good reason to thump somebody in the real world, it's just good policy to come up with some nice white lie. I was expecting some public statement like "MSOC is an excellent writer and an asset to dKos but I can't show favoritism by breaking an important rule like copyright policy. Regretfully, I'm going to have to let the banning stand."  Whether that's more or less the truth or whether it really was an ambush on a technicality makes no difference - that's the wise thing to say.

When I first saw the infringing post, I thought "Ooh, that's copyright infringement. I should post a suggestion to fix." Then I decided I'd probably get in some kind of flamewar so I kept quiet. Now I'm regretting saying nothing. Ah, hindsight.

Blech.  The Left blogosphere needs more frequent elections so there is something real to focus on.

HiD: would you post on a hawaii-pacific-world community blog, I'm tinkering away for months toying with the idea.

The fact that you chew me up and spit me out on HI politics is one of the attractions (though I hold my political strategy survives the beatings... your knowledge of HI politics is excellent, and we differ on valid and substantive issues that make us unique humans)

cheers.

-pyrrho-

I noticed that I stopped posting diaries and even many comments with the exception of Cronesense's wonderful StoryTime.  Alas, some creativity remains.  But political creativity is increasingly absent.  It's no surprise that MSOC has become the latest banning -victim- target.

One of my favorite contradictions was during the election cycle.  We were repeatedly harangued to support Lamont with time and money despite the long odds because it was the "right" thing to do.  Yet, at the same time, we were told to support Harold Ford, Jr. because it was the "politic" thing to do - even though Ford's record was more reactionary than Lieberman's.

And although I found Lieberman's war-mongering positions indefensible, I though it foolish to pour energy and money into a race that showed little chance for Lamont in the general election.  There might have been another Dem senator or two and a less alienated Lieberman had Dem energy been focused elsewhere.  But, I was repeatedly flamed for pointing out this inconsistency.  And, God how I wanted to post an "I Told You So" diary - especially since I predicted the final Connecticut numbers nearly exactly.

That's when I realized that any real political discussion was lacking at DailyKos.  There was a received wisdom and blasphemy.  And being a child of the seventies - I'm rather attracted to blasphemy.  And let's be honest, Kos staked his political reputation in 2006 on removing Lieberman.  So like Liberace, Old Joementum ended up laughing all the way to the bank.

But that was when I though that a website like DKos might make a difference.  Actual it's just an electronic file 13.  Except that there's less sound and fury with every passing week.  A weak and feeble bleat is about all it can produce now.  Carefully triangulated - carefully monitored - carefully advertised.

Rules - we must have rules.  Don't think for a moment that the left can't be as authoritarian as the right.  But then again, Daily Kos is hardlythe left - is it?  Isn't it just the right warmed over at times?  When I questioned whether all of the "Fighting Dems" were a great idea - especially for someone with a pacifist background - again a chorus of denunciation.  And when a rightwing Kansas Republican became the Dem candidate for Lt. Governor - I asked, "If Democrats are just former Republicans, then why bother?"

Sacrilege, blasphemy.  Light the bonfires.
And Kos' recent actions are certainly no surprise.
Disappointing - yes.  Surprising - no.
I had hoped for better.

{:0)

You don't owe him shit!

Bash on!

BTW, happy belated B-Day :)

Silence is never golden!

He pimped your own intellectual property (generated user content) for years (which drove ungodly traffic & page views to the front page).

It's all about moula.

Your voice (as well as that of other dissidents') sent his ad revenues into the ionosphere (he's making a killing off 'voices' of others).

He's threatened. Good. 'Bout damned time.

Meta is indeed big business for DK (ad revenue)--pls. flip it; and deconstruct what you've learned from the experience (utilize muse and momentum to your own advantage; and keep the traffic diverted elsewhere).

Suggestion:  create an MLW ActBlue account; and paste it prominently @the top of the index page & sidebars (I despise PayPal).

Best to you, Maryscott.

Turn Maine Blue, vs. Purple

Would it be too much trouble for you to walk me through the process of creating one for an individual website?

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

here, it is more a sophisticated rural area. the pace is kinder to the soul while the quality of intelligence is equal.

where would choose to live?

"Be nice to people on your way up; they're the same ones you'll meet on your way down."

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

All in all the whole thing makes me think of the netbsd/openbsd split. Once the two teams stopped harassing each other they both went on to find their niche. It's clear Kos has figured that out.

Hopefully at some point MSOC can go back over this and learn form it. Sadly it's obvious she won't in the short term - and it's pretty clear that too many people here are enabling her.

Yes-men do not help Presidents or bloggers.

Hopefully MSOC will see past her enablers and move forward.

BTW, I'm going to assume MSOC confirmed that it was OK to post private email. In general that's a huge breach of netiquette - a view that long pre-dates blogging (and the web for that matter). And there's a copyright question as well:

You should also not repost private email to the list unless you have obtained prior consent from the author. Such reposting is at best considered extremely rude, and in some legal jurisdictions may be a violation of copyright, or other rights of the original author.

Shhh! 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 (HD-DVD processing key)

And as for what I may or may not have learned in the short term, oh, boy -- I have learned quite a lot. You may be assured of that -- and contrary to what you may be inferring from my posts in the past 48 hours, I am quite at ease with the events which have unfolded, and at peace with the current circumstances.

That does not mean that I do not consider markos's actions the height of douchebaggery -- for they are, and he has shown himself to be a weasel, at BEST -- and at worst? Well, I'll reserve my thoughts on that for another time.

As I've remarked elsewhere, I intend to write one more post about the events of the past few years and what they have meant to me -- as well as what I believe they portend for the future of blogging, of our political system, et ctera -- and then, I believe, that will be that.

I've no intention of making this blog or my central thesis in my writing into an All Markos/DKos All the Time cesspool. We are better than that, I truly believe that.

But for this brief period, you can hardly expect me or anyone else who is emotionall or intellectually affected by this situation to refrain from posting our feelings, thoughts and analyses about this grotesque turn of events. That would be like sitting on a lumpy divan in a very smal living room, chatting awkwardly about the lovely red satin wall covering while studiously avoiding any chance glimpse at the giant pachyderm taking a massive shit in the middle of the tacky faux persian rug directly opposite the portrait of dear, departed, sainted Justice Renhquist.

Damn. I mutilated another metaphor.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

So if you are sending emails as part of your White House job, those emails are owned by the government. A government which has a duty under law to archive its documents and produce them in certain circumstances (like, say, a Congressional investigation).

So you can duly note whatever fiction floats your boat. Me, I'll stick to the reality based community.

US citizen? Live overseas? Had Enough? Then register to vote at http://www.VoteFromAbroad.com

Shhh! 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 (HD-DVD processing key)

Shhh! 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 (HD-DVD processing key)

Maybe given a copyright notice at the bottom, possibly, but I doubt it, it's communications.

I'm not saying your wrong, I fully expect a citation as you speak in an authoratitive voice.

-pyrrho-

and why is that?  because the center cannot stand to be criticized, or even the subjects in which they are habitually criticized come up.

they act so put upon and tired of ideology... poor poor them.

IRONICALLY I'm not that liberal.  I just know we need liberal policies in this country right now to keep head into the future.

we need that cohesion, so figuring out why forking is good is not going to work for progressive politics.

kos as figured out how to make a living marketing a progressive brand while putting down progressives... the only question on that is how long does that work for?

-pyrrho-

Now I'm sure there are moronic commenters on dkos - just like there are on slashdot.org, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5, etc. But I'm talking about MSOC and Kos themselves here.

MSOC had an accountability moment and she failed - (I optimistically add:) for the moment. She's rehashing the past and flinging insults. Kos isn't doing either.

And perhaps I'm jaded, but it's not just petty but it's also just old. I've seen it on numerous newsgroups, mailing lists and websites. The people cheering MSOC on aren't doing her any favours.

US citizen? Live overseas? Had Enough? Then register to vote at http://www.VoteFromAbroad.com

Shhh! 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 (HD-DVD processing key)

He also calls feminists "the sanctimonious women's study set" and "laugh as people that visualize peace"... all of which he can do if he wants, but if he wants that, it IS putting people down.

it used to be dkos would not ban liberals... it was about giving them voice, but not now, kos has banned thousands of people that NO ONE argues are liberal.

I don't think it's better to bury bad feelings, I believe in processing them, and I really don't care how many aspersions are cast my way as a result by those that say, "can't we just pretend it's not a part of the problem?"


-pyrrho-

HOW NOBLE is silence, but it's not internet-style, it's not blog style... it is only noble insofar as "nobility is fucked up".

also, kos has said many times, INCLUDING FACE TO FACE IN PERSON TO ME, that the way to insult people on the net is don't mention them, and then people are going to present why that is really classy.

Right.  Because they ignore the few things he DOES say are in fact put downs.  Yeah, it's really great when your allies cut you lose and kick you out and WON'T EVEN ADDRESS WHY.

you know, they offer no official word on why I was banned, NONE, they won't even confirm if an individual did it (yes) or the "community banning" process.  Even if you ask, and Hunter says it's out of compassion for the banned people... saying why might hurt their reputation... um... what a crock of self serving shit.

yes, what respectful silence "why have I been banned"... and do I really need to know why... NO, I know enough people to know the general consensus, the reason people speculated, was the reason... it was ultimately for promoting peeder's diary here on kos' business plan.  Because we know that dkos is of course above having to be mentioned in business analysis in a bad light.  They don't say why because:

KOS HATES ACCOUNTABILITY.

If there was a chance in hell of him having real power that would be very scarey.  HE HATES ACCOUNTABILITY!

What do you know about his business or where the funds go?  Oh... yeah, he's a Republican Democrat so that's no one's business, because he hates accountability.  Forget that the money comes from the fact that progressives read there in droves and comes then from advertising... nah, that's not a hint, that a progressive organization taking in millions in volluntary free labor should be accountable... no! of course not!

Trust... people still trust kos... some, but far more of the talent is JUST NOT THAT STUPID, and are instead trying to use dkos still, while not risking too much actual trust for a really very thankless petty man who is politically naive, but not a bad web developer.

-pyrrho-

Shit like that.

People who TRUST that Markos takes ads from Chevron but that THAT money only comes from their Very Special Non-Blood Money Account.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

that trust was broken.

I could even accept it was irreconcilable differences, and not put it to trust, but that isn't how it went down... it went down as "well, if you don't like that I'm breaking the trust, go start your own site"...  he might as well said, since we are not all wanting to be web developers and paid political workers, "go build another one for someone else, that you can use till he breaks your trust as well".

another word is "thankless"... so many act like we need to thank kos to the end of time for... as if for the fucking internet itself.  It reminds me of people that used to say I should feel thanks to Bill Gates for the internet (in response to my criticisms of him)... and even if he didn't invent the internet (which many actually thought he had) it was AS IF he did, FOR THEM, because they used Windows to get online, IE to access the web.  "without him a lot less people..." blah blah blah.  But no, Bill Gates wrote software for the web, did not invent it, end of story. 

And yet, I would be thankful, if he was inclined to be thankful for the millions of dollars of free labor he uses to build and maintain his site, which gives him a living.  It generates a living for him, because it is a business, but people would like to call it kos' livering room, as if dkos was paid for out of his personal trust fund.

I once bought a beer for kos and his wife... just that alone would have been enough, in my book, if I were in his situation, to, say, answer a fucking email about why I was banned.  THAT ALONE would suffice in my world view, ignoring the evangalizing for dkos I'd done, ignoring the damage control around the net as every dkos user faced the "screw em" comment... just the beer and kind words would have been enough.

but not for kos, and it's not the only time, it's a pattern, it's the sort of man he is, or, if you rather, ISN'T.

-pyrrho-

Turn Maine Blue, vs. Purple

And, --- forgive me for speaking the truth as I see it --- it's no damn wonder I don't hang out here much anymore.  Too much drama, too much victim energy, too much psychotherapy, too much personal blame.

I'm sorry to have to say it like that because I think you have great heart.  But good Lord, get over it and move on. 

Well, we do, we think our drama is important and part of our lives... and minimizing it would not be ignoring it.

I think people that claim their drama is not important to them are blatent liars... it would not be drama otherwise.  It is excellent they want to move on, I myself feel quite able to move on, because I don't have to.  I can move on emotionally and STILL bring the subject up.  For one, the passion will erode when you bring it up and explore it, it becomes damp, the fire goes out, and whatever remains can be discussed, rather than locked in some repressed dungeon of the mind.

if it's not interesting to you, of course you won't read it. 

but it not really very odd why we do find it important.

In my case especially, because I think the problem with the progressives in the USA is in their RELATIONSHIPS WITH EACH OTHER.

It would be nice to fix the problem, and first, we'll have to figure out what the problem actually is.


-pyrrho-

I signed up for Daily Kos in early '04 as a Deaniac eager to commiserate with like minded people.  I became what would be called a "regular" in the late summer period and remained such until the Pie Fight idiocy so disgusted me I left for months and have never really been what could be called a regular since then. 

That seems like millennia ago now.  In the accelerated pace of blogtopia, it probably is.  Is DK really the same blog where I could spend hours late at night pretend-flirting with mcjoan and exchanging friendly insults with Armando?  Is it really the same place I could post a diary titled "LIVE NUDE GIRLS!!!" as an excuse to get people to look and see that I just wanted to hang out and B.S. for a while to escape the grind of politics?  (Even more amazingly, some of you who were around then might recall those diaries sometimes got 400 comments and made the recommended list.)

In a literal sense, it's the same place.  But in a practical sense, it could not be more different.  Everyone takes themselves so damn seriously now.  They've got the attention of the Democratic party.  Decorum must be maintained!  With the exception of Cheers and Jeers (which, to my eternal amazement is allowed to remain on the frontpage and HUGE kudos to Bill in Portland Maine for never changing his style despite the tidal shifts happening all around him) barely a vestige remains of that rollicking "We're outsiders so fuck you buddy" attitude that made it such an awesome place.

It's become a reflection of the Democratic party establishment they so want to join:  ossified, rigid and mostly useless.  If the silence on the WaPo article was the first big warning bell, then the banning of Armando was the final nail in the coffin of Once Was and What Might Have Been.  Leave aside whatever your personal opinion is of the man and reflect that no one save Markos himself was a more prominent member of the site or had more media attention. (He was a guest on Air America several times, I believe)  If you would have told me Armando would get banned someday, I would have laughed in your face.  Markos would sooner ban himself, probably.

But it happened.  And what was the timing of it?  When Armando started throwing unapologetic rhetorical bombs at the Democratic establishment over their total political tone deafness on Iraq.  When that happened, I knew it was over.  Markos had crossed the Rubicon into Capital-E-Establishment land.  And not only him--Hunter, whatever his amazing gift with the written word, has descended into some bizarre form of madness wherein he turns his talent for cutting mockery upon anyone who criticizes Markos or Daily Kos in general. 

I remember there was a minor dustup on the site some time back where people took Markos to task for the fact that he would make his own posts replicating (in terms of the subject) diaries already on the recommended list.  He responded by saying he viewed the diaries and the "frontpage" as two separate entities.  I thought at the time he did this at his peril since it was fairly obvious to me that people came not for him, but for the writers in the diaries and to particpate in the forum he had created.

Since then, the packs of bullies that have emerged have been rather consistent in their themes:  It's Markos' site, it's his site, he can do what he wants, M-is-for-Markos-and-that's-good-enough-for-me.  It's suddenly become all about him.

I tend to roll my eyes at some of the conspiracy oriented stuff with regard to Kos....but that makes me go "Hmmm."

The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.

If you look back through my archives, I have a diary entitled "Someone hand me the irony chainsaw" talking about what a crock of shit I thought the whole thing was.  (It was sparked by his 180 on Hackett combined with the fact that right above his post was an advertisement for "Crashing the Gate" with an endorsement quote from--ready for this?--Donna Brazile!)  That made it way up on the recommended list and stayed there for a while.  I mention this because I saw Kos say sometime later that whenever people say he threw Hackett overboard it "really fucking pisses me off." (That's not verbatim, but it's very much the idea)  I dearly hope what I wrote was something he was referring to.

The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.

My concern has always been that dKos would turn into the Fox News of the left - supporting Democrats and spinning for Democrats uncritically, trying to explain away problems or failures. For some it has certainly become that. Just now there's a diary from David Sirota (who got "warned" by Kos too! can you believe that?!) full of a number of small items, including criticism of Democrats who are indicating support for a free trade agenda despite having won in 2006 with the support of labor and having been critical of free trade agreements on the campaign trail. Anyhow, there are several folks who are attacking Sirota for this diary, some saying "you're accusing Democrats of corruption! how dare you!" Because apparently these critics have never heard of K Street...

For every sycophantic defender of a Democratic establishment status quo, though, there still remains good and solid voices on the issues. I wish georgia10 weren't so busy, because when she writes it's usually good stuff. mcjoan has been totally solid on the Iraq War, even criticizing Harry Reid at one point. And in the diaries and the comments you still have people adhering to the original goals, pushing for progressive change and voicing their discontent with failed Democrats. I still think the site has its value, but I wonder how much longer it'll last. There are still a few shoes yet to drop, and perhaps the remaining voices that support the goals we always had - democratic reform, progressive policy, etc - may not survive. Or maybe they will. Who knows.

Yesterday there was a diary pointing out that Barack Obama had never returned to dKos after his scold that he posted there in September 2005 on John Roberts. To my knowledge Hillary has never posted there either, nor Richardson. Edwards continues to do so, but the irony is that for a site led by someone who is trying so hard to become establishment, that establishment does not appear to take him all that seriously. Or, they have figured ways to coopt the radical potential dKos had - which at some point I think it did have - a cooptation Markos seems happy to agree to.

There is an instructive contrast here. Over at Calitics there is a fine young crew of progressives who are trying to work their way into the halls of Democratic power. Over the weekend they all attended the state Democratic convention in San Diego. Their coverage was utterly fascinating. You could see them full of progressive energy and dedication, and recoiling in anger at some of the bullshit moves pulled by the establishment to block progressive resolutions on Iraq and Net Neutrality. You can watch them working out their relationship with the system, trying to figure out how to make their very progressive and small-d democratic goals into reality within the existing system. Maybe they'll succeed, maybe they'll be demobilized and frustrated, who knows. But they strike me as much more an authentic representation of the movement we all thought we were starting in 2003-04.

This line stuck out for me.

For every sycophantic defender of a Democratic establishment status quo, though, there still remains good and solid voices on the issues.

There has been much criticism of dkos over the last few days. Much of it deserved. But I think a lot of fine progressives got swept into that criticism unfairly. Markos is a centrist democrat slightly progressive on some things, slightly misogynistic less progressive on others. I don't think the same can be said for his readership. Nor his writers, FP and other.

The presidential straw polls are a perfect example. HRC is an also-ran. They are, overall, a well informed and critical bunch.  Which is why, in my humble opinion (and my opinions are rarely humble) that removing Maryscott and other more progressive/liberal voices is so damaging.

Markos has the right to run his site however he wants. But that doesn't mean he's immune from criticism in doing so. He built a huge and valuable audience with a wide spectrum of talented writers and participants. It saddens me what he has allowed to happen to it. Its value has been greatly diminished.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

I do not think that is true. But then again, It think that is not true at this site either.

That's stiff competition.

I'm comparing them to the rest of the world.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

Warned?!  Do you know why? 

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

Being banned is no big deal. Its just part of the blogging schtick. You mercifully, have ignored it on your site, why get flustered about it on his site? Fuck him and fuck his Democrats. Both equally. And let it go....

Learn a new riff, please. This one's beginning to sound like Inna Godda Da Vida, baby, after the lame 16 minute drum solo, or wtf.

Sometimes I wish I could merit being banned over there, but, hell, I was never even able to make TU.

Burnet O (-8.31,-6.31)
Resist tyranny

1. "Opera Glasses and Poopcorn."

2. Red State

3. Booman Tribune (as illusions of magicians)

4. Booman Tribune (as pete richards--a precocious 20 year old from U of Wis--Parkside)

5. Booman Tribune (as d. tale)

So, my being banned at DKos rates only a distant 6th.

I have more badges to be prouder of than those buffoons running the US Military.

And those who made the remarks clearly think the emotions problems are MSOC's, not theirs.  Hmmmm.

You will please note that I have yet to editorialise this particular last episode. There is a reason for that. But I will, and you will doubtless complain again that I am wasting time; but the fact is, this is important to ME and to may OTHERS.

So please, if you can't stand reading it, DON'T FUCKING READ IT. There is some stellar fucking work in the community essays section -- by all means, please go there and read and write and recommend to yours heart's content.

But YOU are wasting  MY time by ceaselessly posting YOUR complaints about MY complaints about MARKOS's complaints about ME.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

{:o)

Why should not my complaint also be heard?

It is written...(by Maybelle Carter I think) :"The (complaint) circle shall be unbroken."

By the way, you weren't talking about my "official record" were you?

{:o)

One more piece of precious assbutt wisdom: the official record can cut both ways...you may not be remembered "historically" in quite the same way you may today imagine...quite likely, you might not be remembered at all, and be far the better off for it...you might want to lay low, is all I'm saying...

{:o)

1. actor

2. 212 (the area code for Manhattan)

3. Bill O'Lielly uses "popinjay" in his pithy little closing as in "name and town, name and town if you wish to opine and don't be a ....popinjay."

Busted, O'lielly! Fess up now and I'll make sure you are treated more fairly than you ever treat those dopy Judges you are always harassing for letting pedophiles off on probation....

{:o)

1)  This - in particular your last note to Markos - is pretty damned good

2) we both know something will happen to spark more.  Arbitrary "and then I'm done" won't hold....  rather one must be done.  this is a horrible example, and I use it intentionally.  I think it may be like quitting smoking :-)  (boy I hope all the fruit from last night has been used up already or I'm in for it)

3) I can't help but reflect on the front page as I write.  2 diaries (plus the original on the sidebar) on the banning and an all but ignored "Main Thing" post from Renee.  Having dealt with this matter pretty well - what IS the main thing? 

  Why not spend the energy, instead of compiling a history of slights and disagreements, instead on some focus on positive steps about darfur, work on some legislative initiative, or making a positive difference for some other alienated disrespected group out there.

The sooner we stop treating dKos like the all important mother ship and start treating it like just one of many blogs with which we share some issues and goals, and disagree on others....  the better.

sometimes you win. sometimes you lose. and sometimes.... it rains.

A reasonable idea:  get a pretty well worked out draft of the first chapter and a general outline, find a literary agent, get published and see what happens.

You write so well and your good at anecdotes, which people love. You could put it in terms of the winning and losing of good ideas, so it could draw on your political insights.

Well, an idea for the use of newly freed time.

Leslie Howard as Mainefem.

{:o)