Through A Glass, Darkly

Think of it this way, Maryscott. (7.00 / 5)

Now you're sitting at the really cool kids table. All the best people have been banned from orange. I have. While Dkos itself is becoming a creepy, insular, little community. One of the things you said in one of these threads that really stuck with me is that any thread over there with more than 100 comments is largely a discussion of the rules. It's so fucking true. They're all tripping over themselves to make sure they are among the people who toe the line. Why? Because the more elitist that place becomes, the more meaning it gives their sorry lives to be on the inside looking out.

What on earth could such and us/them mentality do to further political discourse? It's antithetical to the entire idea of a grass roots movements, if you keep silencing people and telling what they can and cannot think. If the Democratic Party had listened to the people, they would have voted against this war en masse, because they were deluged with outrage and protests. But they knew better and now the country is left with, literally, no good options. That's the danger of echo chambers and that's exactly what Dkos has become; a self-reinforcing echo chamber of group think. Useless.

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

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by: Curmudgette @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:16:08 AM CDT

This was postdated. (10.00 / 5)

Which is my way of saying, no, I did not receive news of my friend's renewed suicide attempt and promptly sit down to write this little piece of nothing.

And doesn't it ALL seem so fucking TRVIVIAL in comparison?

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:36:14 AM CDT

I have to admit (2.00 / 1)

the title gave me pause.  I was almost afraid to read it, hoping against hope it wasn't news of him.


Insert witty quote here.

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by: puzzled @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:40:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well Spoken (7.50 / 2)

As I've maintained since the putsch, he needs us more than we need him now.

He ought to remember that he put himself in this position.

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by: actor212 @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:41:35 AM CDT

I know for sure (6.83 / 6)

He needs his frontpagers and the more prominent diarists or that site would go to hell in a hurry.  I don't think he needs me at all and I'm fine with that. 

I totally agree with the second sentence.  He's alienated a lot of people who should be allies--more of them than I can even begin to recall at one sitting.  That's never wise.

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by: Buckeye BattleCry @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:26:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Book (8.00 / 3)

I've never heard you use such a beautiful and satisfying word.

I'm SO glad to hear this.

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

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by: Nonpartisan @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:42:26 AM CDT

Well, somebody should write a book (6.00 / 1)

I think you should go for it.

Things have changed drastically at DKos since it became his sole source of income and the support for a family of 4 instead of 2

I think some very interesting things took place before the size of his family expanded.  I don't remember exactly when dKos became his sole source of income.

A lot of people mention Paul Hackett and the pie wars when discussing Markos and DailyKos.  I remembered that some issues went back farther than that, spring 2003 to be exact. I found this today while I was searching for comments by Wesley Clark Jr. on the dKos site because, although I can't recall his exact words, Wesley Jr. was very unhappy with something Markos (his friend) had written about Clark the elder. I had thought at the time that Kos and Jerome chose to back Dean because Clark had taken too long to announce his candidacy.  That might be partially true, but then there's this:

As a historical note, I was semi-involved with the Draft Clark effort. Markos and I had formed a consultancy group in January of 2003. I liked Dean; he Clark. We agreed that whichever hired us first we'd both work together on that campaign. Both the DraftClark.com and DraftWesleyClark.com 2003 websites launched on the same day April 11th or so (uncoordinated). DraftClark.com  was launched by Markos learning scoop coding over a week and myself drafting content (reading Clark's book). The wayback machine has archives of the site. In the beginning of May, Clark, through his CoS, gave us a decision date of May 15th, and then AZ was hired by Dean so the point was mute. In late May, we handed off (iirc) about 3500 signatures that we'd collected in the past couple of months to John Hlinko and he ran it for a touchdown, while Stirling Newberry took over posting content on the DraftClark blog. It was a quick and fun online draft effort for myself, and I wasn't nearly as engaged with it as I was with Dean's movement, but it give me a bit of a perspective on the Draft Clark effort, if just at the beginning.

http://mydd.com/stor...

So maybe it all really was about the money.  Money and the power to influence, perhaps.

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by: Buckeye BattleCry @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:46:33 AM CDT

One more thing... (8.80 / 5)

then I'll move on as well. 

Remember Kos' "screw them" moment?  How much ad revenue was lost because of that?  John Kerry's site removed the dKos link if I remember correctly.  How much negative press did it get?

You see, Maryscott, there can't be any more "screw them" moments.  Not from any prominent diarist or frontpager on that site, not from Kos himself.  So that's why your 'You Fuck, You Die' title had to be changed.  That kind of dirty talk just isn't going to help crash teh gates.  Heh.

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by: Buckeye BattleCry @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:01:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Markos Got What He Wanted... (10.50 / 2)

He's on the "inside" now.  What better way to temper his "movement" than by giving him a glimpse of power.  By bringing him into the fold, he's less likely to create the waves that blog used to create.  I'm just surprised it was so easy.  I guess crashing the gates only means something when you're not inside the gates.

-8.25, -6.92

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by: jdellaro @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:44:46 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I read an old diary of mine last night (9.33 / 6)

This one Who you calling a Democrat?
It is dated February 13th of last year.  I've quoted a pertinent part of that diary. 

By 2004, I had found my way to the blogs.  I remember doing a search for left blogs and DKos came up.  That was a whole other world for me.  People for whom the Democratic party was a religion weren't on the same wavelength as me.  But it was early over there and there were many voices and stances not all of them strictly Democratic.  It's funny, my first diaries at DKos were dream conversations I had with Joe Hill the wobblie songwriter.  This was a device to talk about working-class politics without getting attacked.[I also turned Joe Hill into a Democrat -- forgive me Joe.]  From the very first I realized that I had to be careful about what I said over there.

  Also from blogging I've come to realize that there are many, many Democrats with whom I have serious differences.  On questions of war, flag burning amendments, taxing corporations and a host of others I am often aghast at the positions some people hold.  Nowadays, when I check out DKos I rarely find really interesting diaries.  It is mostly, it seems, a machine for electoral politics, which is fine.  But I'm still not sure to what extent Democrats can change things.  I'll go on voting for them, mostly because they aren't Republicans.  But I don't really have a sense that I AM a democrat.  I'm not anti-communist enough, I'm not convinced that there are "good" wars, I'm not very patriotic to tell the truth.  I don't much like capitalism, although I don't have an alternative.  I'm not a liberal, rather a lefty in an old-left-working-class kind of way.  I don't like that Democrats voted against the filibuster and I hate that some of them voted for the bankruptcy bill. 

  No, I'm not a Democrat. I'm just forced to vote for them.

Shortly after I wrote this I began to withdraw from Orange (as an Irish Catholic I never cared for the color scheme there) and except for one comment in September about Brezhnev and his lack of personality -- thus no "cult of the personality" -- my last comments were in April, 2006.  Compared to MLW the atmosphere there is just stultifying.  I'd never been attacked but I had seen it happen many times and it isn't pretty.  I've been somewhat detached lately in discussions of blogrolls and bannings because I had left DKos.  I had to let it go.  I'm very grateful that MLW was here because I need someplace to blog.

 

My will is easy to decide, for I have nothing to divide. My kin won't need to fuss and moan Moss don't cling to a rolling stone. -- Joe Hill,

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by: slick riddles @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:18:48 AM CDT

"Banned on the Run" (10.38 / 8)

Weird Annie Yanksabit parodies Paul McCartney and Wings.
The term "on the run" should be construed as "on the run to bigger and better things".

Struck from kos's blogroll, cast aside forever,
Never seeing orange slice again; screw you,
Markos you, Markos you.
Thought I'd never get out of there
Now I'm throwing it all away
On to realized clarity
All I need is to write my way
Thought I'd never get out of there.

Well, the reign exploded with a mighty crash as "the man" upheld the ban,
And the first one said to the umpteenth one there I hope you're having fun.
Banned on the run, Banned on the run.
And the trollhunters and soulsuckers kept banning every one

We're the Banned on the run, Banned on the run, Banned on the run, Banned on the run, Banned on the run

Well, the low-risktaker drew a heavy sigh seeing no one else had come,
And a swell was building in blogtopia* for the writers on the run.
Banned on the run, Banned on the run.
And the trollhunters and soulsuckers kept banning every one

We're the Banned on the run, Banned on the run, Banned on the run, Banned on the run

Well, his star is falling as blogtopia* begins to settle down.
All around they're searching for the liberal truth, and here's one place it's found
Banned on the run, Banned on the run

And the Orange judge, who held a grudge
Will hurt for evermore
For the Banned on the run, Banned on the run, Banned on the run, Banned on the run

*yes!even I know that Skippy coined that term.

Give me love, give me love, Give me peace on earth Give me light, give me life Keep me free from birth ...WWGHD

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by: anniethena @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:23:23 AM CDT

Any Nascent Movement (7.60 / 5)

Needs Laws, Order, and Security to survive it's first months.

There are many capable lawyers here, who can draft the Constitution of the Banned. My expertise, such as it is, is in the area of Security.

Everyone has noticed in the last several days the appearance of numerous agents provacateurs out of the blue. A good state security system would prevent these unfortunate occurrences.

I have no particular desire to burnish my bannishment, and no particular desire for high office of state. We do,however, need an NKVBanned, in these perilous times.

In the past several days I have designed a Model Security System (MSS). It's a 200 page pdf file, with a 20 page Power Point Executive Briefing.

I'll send along the MSS and my humble cv, if you so desire.

---

by: Lestat @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:28:59 AM CDT

Power need not corrupt. You too have ample strength (9.86 / 7)

Dearest Maryscott . . .

Power need not corrupt.  You too have more strength than you know.  You can and do influence and effectuate change.  Yet, you long to share the force within you.

It is the fear of failure, of success, our own backgrounds, experiences, and the emotions these evoke that cause us to choose how we express our innate apprehensions.  Sadly, or struggling, she [me] says, we all are scared and insecure.  What we do with that uncertainty of self guides our decisions.

The anxiousness is internalized and we think we will not survive if . . .

Maryscott, you may recall from before birth I was given a deep-seated message; I was unwanted.  This affected me deeply.  On my tenth birthday, I was told in a very loud voice, I was disowned.  Apparently, I was banned.  I did not recall until I was thirty-one years of age that the same seemingly angry [hurting, fearful, less than secure] person sent me an entire new wardrobe when I was eleven . . . a year after the estrangement.  I was too consumed by my own fright and worry to realize that what occurs in a moment may not be as it appears.

Similar has been revealed to me repeatedly.  Often, when someone goes off in an instant, years later, as they too evolve and learn, they are too embarrassed to speak to the person they harmed or address the relationship that was devastated and destroyed by their reactive behavior.

Maryscott, I trust that you will remain open and vulnerable.  That is the truest strength.  If Markos chooses to be reflective and asks to return, to be a part of your life, and desires to share with you, even years from now . . .

Hugs, kisses, and much love to the one that I do not think was truly banned, although, nevertheless, deeply bruised.  Please know you have power and are powerful.  It is likely that you will acquire more strength politically, financially, and completely.  That is not bad and need not corrupt you.  I suspect it will not.

Maryscott please embrace the force; it is within you!

It is only the giving that makes us what [who] we are. - Ian Anderson. Jethro Tull . . . Betsy
BeThink.org

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by: Betsy L. Angert @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:31:45 AM CDT

So, I guess my mother was right... (9.25 / 4)

...when she said, "You can rape their women and kill their children, but don't ever fuck with their money."

I think you would have liked my mother.

The pieces all fit together: content --> traffic --> visibility --> viability ($) --> content, etc.

The site now has a place, a momentum. Altering content doesn't change traffic and visibility or, if it does, only slowly and probably not that much.

But take the money out, and there's no purpose left.

I still go because that's where the biggest crowds are, and like an advertiser, crowds have interest for me. There's still a mix of voices and a level of writing/work that makes it worthwhile

But I stopped posting my diaries when the copyright edict came down, and now I just read stuff by selected diarists and on selected issues, and make a few snarky comments here and there.

I also signed up for Chicago, but I think Vegas was the high water mark. It'll be good to see some old faces again, though, and to kiss that sweet, silky smooth cheek.

"...psychopaths have little difficulty infiltrating the domains of...politics, law enforcement, (and) government." Dr. Robert Hare

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by: RubDMC @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:14:42 AM CDT

Couldn't Resist (10.00 / 1)

I also signed up for Chicago, but I think Vegas was the high water mark.

And that, I think, was the handle - -that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn't need that. Our energy would simply prevail. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.

---RIP Hunter Thompson

-8.25, -6.92

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by: jdellaro @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:35:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I;m back on the fence about YK2 (7.00 / 3)

Not sure I'm interested in attending a conference where a guaranteed segment of attendees, no matter hw small, is certain to BOO me at some point or other.

Then again, Shockwave DOES want to throw another MSOC party, and I will probably be bunking for free in his second suite, which leaves only the registration fee -- though PAYING for the privilege of being loathed in person is rather galling to contemplate.

I am also considering applying to conduct a symposium of sorts:

"B-List Blogging: Or, "If You Don't Like It, Start Your Own Blog"

Think they'll bite?

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:49:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

i ain't goin (7.50 / 2)

why support that guy in anyway possible?

as you said, msoc, when freeway blogger and i were having coffee w/you, we should have the independent bloggers alliance convention.

and you are, of course, welcome to "she's with the banned."

if yours or markos' was a boston blog, the pun would have written itself.

jon stewart sez: "when i want news, i turn to cnn...and they turn...to skippy...the bush...kangaroo!"

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by: skippy @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 11:05:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

in fucking hawaii! (0.00 / 0)

300-400$ tickets from california to the "oh so reasonable" big island of hawaii...

-pyrrho-

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by: pyrrho @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:02:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

i'd go to hawaii (0.00 / 0)

any island!  and linkmeister lives there, too!

jon stewart sez: "when i want news, i turn to cnn...and they turn...to skippy...the bush...kangaroo!"

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by: skippy @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:57:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

a detailed comment got lost (0.00 / 0)

with pictures and everything... I'll post a diary... I know some places in paradise, places to throw an amazing time to plan the coming evolution.

-pyrrho-

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by: pyrrho @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 13:21:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

How About A Symposium Titled.... (9.00 / 1)

"Crashing The Gate of the Gate-Crashers"

or

"When You Become Bigger Than The Blog"

or

"BANNED! The Story Of Calling Out The King"

-8.25, -6.92

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by: jdellaro @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 11:08:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

How about a "Bannedaid" booth? (8.00 / 2)

Or an alterkos group?

Count me out as well, before I was banned I was thinking about it, I have friends and relatives there. The banning made up my mind. Also, as skip wisely observed, why support him in any way?

Yes, I know it is supposedly autonomous, but it is named after him, and that's good enough to keep me away.

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by: sometime @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 13:03:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I think there's an old salesman's saying... (4.00 / 1)

...along the lines of "It comes with the territory."

Being visible means getting beaned now and again. There's no obligation to tolerate it, but it's certainly to be expected.

I hope you go. It'll be fun, and Chicago is a terrific city to visit.

"...psychopaths have little difficulty infiltrating the domains of...politics, law enforcement, (and) government." Dr. Robert Hare

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by: RubDMC @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 16:34:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't think I'll be at YKos2. (10.00 / 1)

The more I think about it, the more I know that my discomfort with the idea of attendance at YKos2 isn't just about being the "pariah" or even with the UNGODLY sums of money I cannot afford to spend on such a venture...

It simply goes against everything I have come to believe. To attend a conference that, "officially unaffiliated with Markos" or not, has his name and visage and POLITICS all over it -- well, it just stinks to high heaven, ethically speaking -- to say nothing of simple consistency, something I've lacked at pretty much every step along the path of my life thus far. It'd be nice to start developing some before I hit forty.

The other reasons not to attend are just window dressnig compared to that -- albeit compelling window dressing.

I think skippy and freeway blogger and Renee in Ohio and I are going to have to get our collective Independent Blogger mind wrapped around the idea that we are fully capable of putting together an Independent Liberal Bloggers Conference, on a far smaller scale -- and for a LOT less fucking dough for EVERYONE involved. No chocolate fountains, no snazzy conference rooms, no CSPAN... Though we can probably throw ourselves some pretty goddamned good parties.

It's a thought, huh? I'm not an organiser, sadly, not that I have the stamina or strength to do such a thing even were I blessed with the skillset to do so. But I've got... pull, yeah, that's it. CACHET, motherfuckers!

Anyone out there reading this got any ideas or suggetsions or whatever, drop me a line, man. I'm open to it. Because the one TRULY appealing and compelling thing about YKos, the one reason I even CONTEMPLATED still going, was the fact of all those bloggers gathered in the same place. It was awe-inspiring last year, and no doubt this year will be even more so; the presence of the Democratic national candidates will just up the wow factor even more. And yeah, I'll miss that, and ain't no way any Liberal Bloggers convention gonna get Barack and John et al to show up as keynote or honoured guest -- but it's the Many Bloggers in One Room thing that gets me jazzed, mostly, anyway.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 19:22:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

what you said (9.50 / 2)

"ain't no way any Liberal Bloggers convention gonna get Barack and John et al to show up as keynote or honoured guest"

Exactly.

And if they ain't liberal, let alone "left", why pay money to hear them . . . dissemble . . . when you can get it free on television.

I can't think of much that's *less* appealing than a room full of thirtysomething political groupies standing around telling each other how important they are.
 

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

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by: Deward Hastings @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 20:04:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh, I can think of PLENTY of liberal speakers. (0.00 / 0)

Just not the centrists passing themselves off as SORTA liberals as they run for the Presidency.

Though I do give Edwards the nod for populism -- of a well-intentioned sort.

Offhand, I can think of at least a dozen potential speakers, all of whom would have liberal bloggers salivating to get a seat in the room to listen to them.

Don't ask who -- I'm making semi-official "Ideas" lists now...

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:29:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Maryscott, I didn't know about any of this (9.00 / 2)

and have just found out while reading here.  I wondered what happened to peeder and others and I have learned a lot reading here tonight.  I have been away from the blogs on a daily basis until a couple of days ago, while writing a novel to try and raise some money so everything in this diary and thread explains so much.

I am sad that you are not going to be in Chicago, I was looking forward to meeting you in person, but that will have to come at another time now, and I understand why.

Thanks again for all of your help, and for giving me  a place to test and form our campaign message.

I will continue to post here and I will be spending more time reading here as well.

"Iraq is like any Indiana Market in the Summertime." Congressman Mike Pence

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by: Barry Welsh @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:54:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

How to get the Pres candidates there (10.50 / 2)

Give Mike Gravel an invite and then sit and wait for the other campaigns to beg for an invite.  The idea of Gravel having 200-300 semi-prominent bloggers all to his own self would scare the bejabbers out of the rest of them.

---

by: Ian Evergood @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 01:31:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

My humble suggestions (9.50 / 2)

Regional Independent Blogger Conferences, organized by geographic region to cut down on travel expenses.

Invite local political activists to speak, NOT politicians.  Politicians lie; it's part of their job description, actually. 

For example, invite one of the organizers of the LA Immigration Protest marches from Spanish language radio to the Southern California Independent Blogger Conference and have them speak about immigration issues and the relationship of Latinos to progressive politics.

Hell, I hardly ever post on my own blog, but sign me up for that.  I'd be there, and I'll bring, uh, a bag of chips some chocolate bars.  That's my entertainment budget, I think.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

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by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 21:58:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well, whatever you choose (0.00 / 0)

I agree that the real draw is the chance to connect with others.

I'm not expecting any insights from any candidates; and I have a sneaking suspiscion that wankers like Joe Klein may even sniff around. Hey, Byron York and Wankette showed up in Vegas...

But I am looking forward to meeting the folks that I enjoy reading. There's plenty of time between now and then, so who knows what will ultimately happen.

And even if some tool like Joe Lieberman showed up and threw a party, I'd drink their free booze and piss on their rug. I ain't proud ;^)

"...psychopaths have little difficulty infiltrating the domains of...politics, law enforcement, (and) government." Dr. Robert Hare

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by: RubDMC @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 20:43:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I am really sorry this happened. (6.00 / 3)

Mainly because of all the wasted energy and effort and anger and judgment that could have gone into defeating Republicans.

I'll still keep my bio here, and I'll still post there.  Can't afford to go to Chicago, but I'll  be going to Yearly Kos in Second Life so anyone going can meet my disturbing avatar.

Stream your party, dammit :)

But yeah, both here and there, y'all won't get rid of me 'till you ban me. Even though all the really cool kids hang out at Electronic Darwinism.

Bio
Electronic Darwinism

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by: Moody Loner @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 11:24:14 AM CDT

I've been looking for more info on that quote. (6.00 / 1)

I'd actually found different references, but am glad for the Corinthians and the Patton piece.

I'll give a nod your way if I use them.

Thanks!

Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt: Downy wings, but wroth they beat; Tempest even in reason's seat.

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by: GreyHawk @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:41:50 PM CDT

IMHO, were I MSOC, I'd try to psyched myself up to write a (10.00 / 3)

book that interweaves a discussion of the political scene with an account of the blogsphere that draws mostly on what is most positive.

Do keep in mind that leaving something out is as significant as putting it in. 

But you might give it a really scary title; e.g.,

"Now it is my turn" by MaryScott....

"My Side," by insider MaryScott.....

"The Real Cool," by the famous blogger....

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by: jpete @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 13:13:57 PM CDT

The Silence of the Banned (8.40 / 5)

Night of the Living Banned!

..."we're coming to ghhhhet you Molessstahh"...

Well, there are other available avenues for a midwest meet-up, right around the same time....

I would just bet, if all the Alliance blogs casually mentioned they weren't going, the actual #'s would be greatly down.

De-Kos the Blogs Convention:

"You crash the Gate.  We'll remove the whole FUCKING Fence."

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by: Diane W @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 14:50:12 PM CDT

that's a brilliant idea (0.00 / 0)

tho i don't know how many other iab (or whatever it is...international house of pancakes or something) blogs are planning on not going.

jon stewart sez: "when i want news, i turn to cnn...and they turn...to skippy...the bush...kangaroo!"

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by: skippy @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 00:08:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I've got a fence for ya... (7.00 / 1)

Ring me up and I'll give you directions...

  (oh, different fence.)

  never mind

I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one hell of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult. E. B. White

---

by: a small quiet voice @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 08:53:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Cliffs Notes version (9.25 / 4)

Markos Moulitsas, a small-time political operator, started a blog.

The blog generates lots of revenue, but his finances are precarious, even so.

A single advertiser can ruin Moulitsas simply by withdrawing patronage for a rather short amount of time.  Two major advertisers withdraw, and he'd be gone within a month. 

Moulitsas must avoid controversy, because controversy scares advertisers.

However, it's controversy that makes political blogs exciting.

There is no way to save DailyKos in any meaningful way.  It is becoming the worst thing of all:  an insular, boring place animated only by fear.

Yet, DailyKos is sinking and will continue to sink.  There is no way out of the trap that Moulitsas has made for himself:  he cannot make his blog smaller and cheaper; he bought a Jaguar XJE and you can't turn a Jag into a Honda.

As with all things in America, it was money, not ideology, that undid Moulitsas.  He has been converted, quite easily, into an errand boy for grocery clerks, his livelihood and reputation entirely subject to the whims of men who can shut DailyKos down tomorrow.

Maybe Maryscott doesn't make any money from MyLeftWing, but at least she has her independence.  Nobody tells her what to write.

And that is a price far beyond rubies....

(By the way, a quick search of Realtor.com shows that the cheapest house in the Berkeley Hills, which is Kos' 'hood, starts at...$995,000 for a "starter home"...payment on a place like that would run $3,500 if you had a very low interest rate and a HUGE downpayment, and closer to $5,000 a month if you were an ordinary mortal)

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 16:58:49 PM CDT

And The Banned Played On. (9.17 / 6)

AG

Government is the Entertainment Division of the Military-Industrial Complex.-Frank Zappa

---

by: Arthur Gilroy @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 17:08:02 PM CDT

So the only unresolved plotline remaining (9.33 / 6)

is what happens to Markos and his business. It's almost a foregone conclusion since Every. Single. Decision. he has made since YK1 has been a catastrophic mistake. I can't think of one thing he's made the right call on since then. Seriously.

It's remarkable how resilient business is in general. There's so much unmet demand in the world, and so much difficulty finding supply, that the naive customer will try in earnest to save a business that is, in fact, mistreating them and making a beeline for the abyss. The advertiser in this case isn't a naive business, but will still wish to prop up an outlet that has provided value in the past.

But the thing that is so deadly in business is that it takes 12-18 months for the effects of a decision to be felt. While Moulitsas was making one fatal error after another in late 2006, all the numbers were going sky high. This will fool the inexperienced entrepreneur into thinking that those decisions were the right ones. In fact, the 2006 results were due to his making a solid string of brilliant decisions from 2003-2005. The sustained halving of his actual viewership, and quartering (if not worse) of revenue, in early 2007 is really just the early shock from making the mistakes in mid-2006. He is underperforming his market by well over 100%. It will get worse, primary or no primary.

My objective with Daily Kos was to grow it big enough quick enough that it would reach a sustainable critical mass and avoid such a fate. This required, in my view, a wholesale trebling of the number of diaries posted per day to 1000. This idea was viewed as an anethema to many of the regulars who wished to not only read everything posted there but to control it...the dreaded Kos Kops.

Disaster for another employee prevented the timely shipment of the Ajax Diary Editor which was a part of that strategy from June to September, and the elections were cited to delay it to November. But the final end of that concept came when Markos endorsed the Diary Police's efforts to reduce the number of diaries posted, and in turn the size of the community, by harassing new contributors. He really needed to end their unsanctioned effort rather than sanction it: Daily Kos is becoming "self-limited into obscurity" as I warned minutes before he posted that.

Although I was still technically working at the time, I was excluded from the planning meetings for Daily Kos 4.0, even though my training and experience with software design is rare even in the Valley. But the hints I've gathered from public leaks is that they are planning on adding some sort of social networking concept. This makes the intentional thinning of the user base that much more astonishing. In any case, I have significant doubts any such product will appear, at least, in overall beneficial form. Any experienced contractor will be strictly biweekly net 15 in this situation and that will probably stop things in their tracks.

Nowhere in this could getting rid of a star like MSOC be contemplated. Controversy isn't just good, it's absolutely fucking essential for blogs. He's long had it out for Jerome a Paris as well...Bowers was used to attack him last because Markos doesn't just doesn't have the necessary wattage. He tried to get rid of OPOL with the copyright jihad. It's Soviet to come up with paper excuses for arbitrary "justice" and summary executions.

I don't think we'll see very much of the retreat. You won't hear a thing before YK...they will bet everything on bounce from that. When that doesn't materialize, I think the "fellows" will quietly agree to stay aboard without a stipend...they were doing it before...and possibly even kick in most of the down payments on their books if those ever happen. The software project may limp out around Feb 2009, reduced to a staff of one determined person, although there will be hints and glimpses for a while. If there's not a sugar daddy (or other source of funding) in the wings somewhere, Markos will try to start making most of his money some other way...probably a way he has very publically sworn off.

And that's about it for me as well. Few can argue that when I signed on in September 2004 and went to work for that service in October 2005 that it wasn't a great thing...perhaps as much as a regular individual sitting in front of a computer could do to help the world at that time. I'm proud of what I did and I'm happy that it was worth fighting for. I'm sad that things didn't work out better. But we're all so well aware of that cycle of individual promise and disappointment in politics...no reason our little blog-politics would be immune.

---

by: peeder @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 17:12:07 PM CDT

Best summation I've yet read, peeder. (7.00 / 2)

And I really don't think I grasped the basics of that timeline till you laid it out like that. it makes a LOT of sense now.

Conversely, Markos's actions are unfathomable. One right after the other.

My conclusion? There HAS to be a "sugar daddy." Don't know what form that SD takes -- corporate, individual, charitable? Surely not the Great and Powerful Soros -- or anyone LIKE him. Anyone like Soros, an individual with a giant fortune, looking to change the world in a positive and meaningful way, could surely not be so blind as to think DKos the way to do it -- not, at any rate, as it exists today.

Ah, well. Meaningless speculation at this point. It truly did "jump the shark" a long time ago.

(By the way, does anyone else think that the phrase "jump the shark" itself long ago... jumped the shark? Just wondering.)


--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 18:43:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Jump the shark (0.00 / 0)

has jumped the shark. But until there's a better phrase....

I think there are two events in the recent past that might be the point where the future is gold turned into the future is shit.

The first, ironically, indirectly involves peeder. I know I pretty much ended my regular participation during the troll wars (last summer sometime, i think?) Kos allowed the merry band of troll police to determine what was, and what was not appropriate content for way too long. (I have no idea, not even a guess, whether "they" were directed, or took it upon themselves to be the arbiters of proper content) The support they got from Armando was damaging. (Kos should have listened to peeder and pyrrho from the beginning on that one) The way I see it, Markos eventually came down on the right side, (limiting the troll ratings to 2 a day i think?) supporting the contention of many (including me) that too many took that responsibility beyond its appropriate scope.

The second (even more irony) was the departure of Armando (both chapters 1 & 2). Through many of the significant events of the last 2 years, he wrote some of the most informed and provacative diaries anywhere. Despite his assholishness in comments, he provided outstanding content that the current FP'ers just haven't been able to match.

So while I can't disagree with peeders evaluation at all, I think two of the worst things that have happened over the last 2 years, Markos had little to do with. He made the right decision (though months too late) with the reigning in of the troll police. And had nothing to do with Armando's first departure, and very little to do with his 2nd. (I think he was by far, more boxed into that decision than the banning of Maryscott).

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

---

by: Kane in CA @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 19:29:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If you follow the timeline closely (1.00 / 1)

you'll see that Armando left the first time not after he was outed (afaics, that was nothing, really) but after he lost his unlimited troll ratings and thus his efforts to marshall the irregular paramilitaries were thwarted by the person he felt was his mission to protect.

Perhaps the last really good community-oriented decision Markos made, which was a couple months before YK1. Of course he rolled it back a bit, briefly giving Armando unlimited troll ratings, which were instantly handed out like cigars.

Even so, while I might openly discredit and neuter Armando, I still would have to think hard about banning him, however abusive he might get and whatever group of bullies he might encourage. Any "victory" one might feel in banning someone is inevitably, alas, pyrrhic. ;7)

---

by: peeder @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 21:24:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That is false (0.00 / 0)

You either speak from ignorance or mendaciousness.

---

by: Armando @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 22:21:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The very low point, (10.00 / 1)

The moment I knew all was likely lost in a fit of hubris-bringing-nemesis, was when he openly mocked his advertisers...HIS ADVERTISERS...right in front of his then-large audience on his front page.

These are the people who were literally putting the food on his family's table.

They were complaining that his rates had gone up, and he made fun of them for doing so. In a "Let them eat cake" moment that would make Antoinette blush, he told them to go advertise on some other blog, or buy one of his pitiful, ignored "classifieds."

That Bowers did the exact same thing isn't much of a surprise...he's never been billed as a businessman. But Markos? When Bowers did it I went over there and gave them a little advice. See, when the advertiser makes those complaints, they aren't questioning your success or criticizing you. What they are looking for is a victory they can point to. So they can go to their boss or their client and tell them "We got a deal! 25% off if we pay in advance!"

What they got instead was public ridicule.

This shocked even me who's seen everything. Or thought I had.

This was one of the reasons I said these people were bloggers, not businessmen. I see there's now a "steerage" third class section that's being sold (although I think it's mostly just being traded) under the "Seconds" section. I guess it would be too much humble pie to swallow to just lower the price of the top slot. Especially after that act.

---

by: peeder @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 21:48:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Jesus H. Christ, he did THAT? (7.00 / 4)

THAT I missed, Peeder.

No wonder Markos had to buy a house.  He needed extra room just for his frickin' ego.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 22:07:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Awesome Post (7.50 / 4)

Very interesting read, thanks for the info!!!  Two things jumped out at me recently on Kos:

1) Kos mentioned something about the new version of DKos will be a message board style, or something to that effect.  That was the loudest death knell I think I've ever heard.  Taking away FP diaries and just allowing it to go message board style will create even more of a, well, message board atmosphere.  As I mentioned elsewhere, I've spent about the last 10 years in a number of message boards devoted to one musical band.  (Met my wife through it as well).  It gave me enough experience to know that the message-board atmosphere wasn't just the board I was on, but rather develops quickly against any message board with any popularity.  It emboldens and encourages cliques with a high-school mentality.  Eventually you have the typical sycophants that praise anything the owner (or moderator) says.  You'll have probably 5-10 main characters with their own followings who become their attack dogs.  Anyone who joins within the first few weeks immediately are revered and take it as a status symbol that they were there before anyone else was and therefore they deserve more respect.  If I read it correctly, it's one of the worst possible moves DKos could make---in my humble little opinion.

2) Not making Jerome a FP-er.  And more importantly, the reason Kos gave---because he wasn't American.  Well, I've read many of Jerome's diaries---and frankly he's more informed about American politics than 95% of the people I talk to each day.  So don't tell me that just because he's not "American" that he can't contribute.  If anything, that would bring an interesting variety to the FP mix.  But if someone knows what they're talking about, and is an amazing writer, they deserve the recognition.  The bullshit citizenship requirement really pissed me off.

But then again, Kos could probably give two shits about my one comment per six month contribution anyway :--)

Again, thanks for a great post and really interesting prediction of how it will all go down.  It's going to be interesting to see the future of Kos, and as you said PERFECTLY:

But we're all so well aware of that cycle of individual promise and disappointment in politics...no reason our little blog-politics would be immune.

-8.25, -6.92

---

by: jdellaro @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 19:06:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I Swear, Just One More Thing.... (8.75 / 4)

There's something seriously wrong with a "Democratic politics" site that has an advertisement for a GLEN BECK(!!!!) fucking series about the agenda behind global warming on the side.  As if Chevron wasn't enough---now the site is taking ad revenue and promoting FUCKING GLEN FUCKING BECK!

Wow, that felt good :-)

-8.25, -6.92

---

by: jdellaro @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 19:07:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The message board thing... (7.33 / 3)

was posted, not coincidentally, on April 1st. It was a joke.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

---

by: Kane in CA @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 19:44:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

When Markos was offered a column in The Guardian (8.00 / 1)

He of course should have declined, seeing as he's not British. =)

---

by: peeder @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 22:24:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I recall one of Markos' brilliant observations (8.00 / 5)

from his brief stint with The Guardian, i.e., "London sure has a lot of history."

I NEVER would have noticed that about London if not for Mr. Moulitsas.  Truly, to see London through his eyes is a revelation.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 22:33:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That really deserves the "8" rating (8.00 / 1)

I'm still truly lol...

---

by: peeder @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 22:36:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

hi front pagers this time (0.00 / 0)

are very lame, maybe w/the exception of mcjoan.

but anyway i haven't visited there since i got dumped off the blogroll.

jon stewart sez: "when i want news, i turn to cnn...and they turn...to skippy...the bush...kangaroo!"

---

by: skippy @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 00:26:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Kagro X is my favourite. (6.00 / 1)

But then, he's been a favourite of mine since before anyone knew who he was.

: P

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 01:00:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

McJoan? The copy and paste queen? (9.00 / 1)

I'm not impressed.  Two-thirds of her content is quotes from other sources.  Copyright "violations" of the sort that Markos used as a pretense to bounce Maryscott from DailyKos abound.  And oy vey, the conventional wisdom:  Never once read a McJoan post (or any of the frontpage posts by any of Kos' current lineup of hack writers) that made me re-think an issue.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 10:42:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

1000 diaries a day? (6.00 / 1)

talk about signal to noise ratio!

If its concern was to be a new "news source", perhaps...

But I have to wonder if the crap ratio wouldn't have made it irrelevant by the numbers.

Editing FP material is one thing, or promoted material.  I get that; but if the actual point was changing the course of public view to a more leftist position, that would be counterintuitive.

Maybe my small mind is unable to grasp your intent here...but what was it they were trying to do?

BTW, you are dead nuts on, on the timeline of causal economics.

---

by: Diane W @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 19:28:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I think that meme is part & parcel of the problem (9.33 / 3)

"Signal to noise." As if the contributions of other human beings is "noise." With all due respect, this is an elitist view. It has no place in the administration of a volunteer contribution-based business.

The site as it grew developed many mechanisms for promoting the most interesting contributions that were approval-, rather than censor- or scolding-based. The recommended list, the Diary Rescue (which was done by many people informally before the official version appeared) and simple whoring/pimping via comments and cross-posts.

In open source software we have a saying, "Enough eyes makes any problem simple." So the "rescue rangers," not just official ones but others in ad-hoc formations, could solve the problem via the magic of HTML and folksonomy tagging. There was no additional tech required. I made changing tags and recommendations instant and painless.

Communities evolve ways of coping, and the ways they evolve are often optimum. Provided they are prevented from coping via hostility. It's so very easy to pull out an axe and kill your neighbor to solve a dispute you have with them. It's the responsibility of gov't to prevent such easy "solutions" by making the cost of hostility greater than peace.

In this circumstance, there was an open endorsement of hostility as the solution by the governor. Now he says he's "sick and tired" of reaping what he's sown.

---

by: peeder @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 21:38:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

THANK you for saying that. (6.00 / 1)

I have ALWAYS had a problem with that "signal to noise ratio" thingy.

I mean, who's signal and who's noise? The repetitive diaries, I'm assuming, go straight into the noise file -- regardless of how insightful the 40th one might be, how unique an angle the 17th might have taken at it, how funny the 28th was...?  And what about all those damned ACTION diaries that ONLY get 3 or 4 comments - I mean, come on, if it ONLY has 3 or 4 comments, it must not be any GOOD, right? Besides, who needs ACTION diaries, anyway? Where's the latest flame war?

What utter ROT that phrase is when applied to DKos and the common perception of what their "noise" is and what their "signal" is.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:24:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Peeder's being criticized elsewhere in this diary, MSOC (7.50 / 2)

As you well know, by our Resident Anti-Meta Commentator.  You know him...the fellow who ONLY posts in meta diaries to complain about...meta diaries. 

Yeesh, it's like watching a fat kid tuck in at the sundae bar and then telling everybody else to go on a diet....

I appreciate Peeder sharing his expertise with us.  I don't think a lot of people (including me) understand the nuts-and-bolts of blogging, although the business aspect of it is pretty easy to understand.

Most small businesses--and that's what DailyKos is, a small business--don't make it past their fifth anniversary.  DailyKos has already beat the odds by making it this far, but now Peeder has put his finger on the problem:

In this circumstance, there was an open endorsement of hostility as the solution by the governor. Now he says he's "sick and tired" of reaping what he's sown.

That's the thing about angry mobs.  Once they've been stirred up, there's just no reasoning with them.  Wonder how long before they turn on Markos?

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:38:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh (5.50 / 2)

I'm not anti-meta.

I just find it amusing that all criticism and speculation about the great bad Kos is considered thoughtful and well reasoned around here but when the mirror comes out on the critics, it is quickly labeled as tedious, repetitive and boring.

By the by, how many businesses have you run professor?

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

---

by: Jake's Guilt @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:45:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

i'll tell you (0.00 / 0)

i mean, who's signal and who's noise?

well, the good writers are signal and the bad writers are noise.

sorry to take a non-egalitarian approach to this, and i truly believe everyone has a right to their opinions and voice, but as a reader, i have to insist that when there's way more bad writing on a site than good, the site fails to provide me, the consumer, with its covenant duties.

as i've said elsewhere, the really great thing about democracy is that every voice is heard.  and the really annoying thing about democracy is that every voice is heard.

radio metaphors aside, it was about a year before ykos that i started disliking going to read that site.  commenting was a chore, nobody got my sense of humor, there were more fights than debates and i just popped by to get the news stories rather than the discussion.

(i'm about to go off point, tho it may seem related.  sorry)

i think the point when i knew it was over for me was when i tried to re-post my famous recommended diary from 2004 "this is not a recommended diary," which was just a lark, a snark, a goof, an open thread about meta-dadaism and blogging in general.

the software at dkos now wouldn't let me post the diary, because now it wasn't long enough to be considered a real diary.

i knew that when i couldn't post the same thing from 3 years ago, it was time to move on.

ok, signal to noise had nothing to do with that anecdote, i'm sorry.

but it's all about attitude over there, be it in the commentors, the proprietor, or the software itself (sorry peeder, if that's your territory.  nothing personal).

it's late, i'm rambling now, this is just "noise."  no "signal."

jon stewart sez: "when i want news, i turn to cnn...and they turn...to skippy...the bush...kangaroo!"

---

by: skippy @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 00:48:16 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

All constraints such as posting size (0.00 / 0)

are set on the server! I made it a point not to hard-wire any policy issues into the client software I wrote. Anything in the client is effortlessly overridden on the server.

---

by: peeder @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 01:23:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

i believe you (5.00 / 1)

my diary was too short to be considered a diary the second time around, even tho it was recommended the first time around.

just using it as an anecdote to illustrate how "un-fun" dkos has become now.

no reflection on your skills, peeder.  i'm a big fan of your thoughts here on mlw.

jon stewart sez: "when i want news, i turn to cnn...and they turn...to skippy...the bush...kangaroo!"

---

by: skippy @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 17:41:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I didn't mean that peeder (0.00 / 0)

as one who is NOT a great writer.  But, as it is, I write an essay on dKos right now, and it falls off within the hour.  Its not elitist, I just used the common term I learned from here about it.

No one would ever see it, or nearly anyone else's diaries.  There already is little actual discussion on most diaries; so how can it be a meeting of many great minds?

I completely agree with the hostility as a tool being the worst possible development.

My question was more about why overwhelming volume would be good for liberals?  What do you think it would do?  The question is not a criticism, it is a real question, because I want to understand.

---

by: Diane W @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 06:43:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Daily Kos diaries don't "fall off" (9.00 / 1)

I don't know what this "fall off" thing is. Fall off of what? Of the recent list? That list is there to cue the people who are looking for something interesting. Of the rec list? That list is there to point out what enough other users have found interesting (or who's popular). But the diary remains on the server and available to any group that wishes to "rescue" it or otherwise link to it.

And very importantly, that's not just on Daily Kos. Daily Kos makes it easier to publish something than most blogging services (am I showing ego again? =) and that means nontechnical people are so empowered. And they can distribute that link to their personal email lists and the like. If not for the 24 hour "cooling off" period that that site employs to ward off driveby trolling, other people could join in the discussion (currently the discussion is open for about three weeks, at least it was that way when I left).

So you could have discussions online lasting weeks for your local political entity, or a national issue, or a special interest issue...

Somewhere along the line Markos decided that even though his software was perfectly general purpose enough to be exactly that kind of universal component of the political infrastructure, that just wasn't the definition of Daily Kos as he saw it. No, it was to be an elite collegium where an insular group read and reviewed each others' bloggerel and everyone competed for the favors of the King (namely a promotion to the hallowed Front Page, from which a competition to be anointed "Fellow" was to take place).

Now I don't see how that helps liberals. As opposed to what the exact same technology could be used for, simply applying a different philosophy.

---

by: peeder @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 08:42:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks, (0.00 / 0)

but it seems to me after 4 or 5 days comments are closed.

Maybe I'm wrong on that, and if I am, I completely see what you are saying now.  Yep, got it.

I find soapblox sites easy now, but after having been on others where you just point and click "blockquote" or "bold" I think to the newbies, they are quite hard.

---

by: Diane W @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 09:36:14 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The most important of Peeder's statements (11.00 / 1)

Markos endorsed the Diary Police's efforts to reduce the number of diaries posted, and in turn the size of the community, by harassing new contributors. He really needed to end their unsanctioned effort rather than sanction it: Daily Kos is becoming "self-limited into obscurity" as I warned minutes before he posted that.

That's it, right there.

But one question is unanswered:

WHY did Markos choose to limit the size of his community?

He's in a double-bind:  Markos wants to control the content of the diaries to avoid controversy that will scare off current advertisers.  By avoiding controversy, Markos scares off not only current readers of his blog, but limits his future audience--thereby ensuring that, in the near future, DailyKos' market value is far less.

Kos' only hope now is that the open presidential election of 2008--which only happens once every eight years and always results in very high awareness of/participation in politics--will boost up his numbers high enough to make DailyKos a marketable commodit.

Then Kos will dump the blog on some investors suckers, pocket his money, and run, not walk, to his next ventures (sports blogs and electronic publishing), leaving DailyKos to fail under new management.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 22:04:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

For those of you wondering why a sharp businessman like me... (7.25 / 4)

...isn't rich, I AM rich...richer than everybody except the four richest kings of Europe.

I just blog to stay close to the common people.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 22:09:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Bowing down (5.00 / 2)

Although I was still technically working at the time, I was excluded from the planning meetings for Daily Kos 4.0, even though my training and experience with software design is rare even in the Valley.

My, you DO think well of yourself, don't you?  And would you mind providing us with your references, past projects, and real name so we can check out the latest of your self-indulgent utterances?

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

---

by: Nonpartisan @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 22:29:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Next you'll be asking ME for references (3.00 / 1)

Look, I told you...me and the Pope are goombahs, ok?  He has a soft spot for me because I introduced him to his wife.

Yeesh, some people are so suspicious.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

---

by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 22:35:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Nah (5.00 / 2)

You don't run around revealing your customers' private information and using this site to promote potentially illegal activities.

I don't like what Markos did to MSOC, but I don't want to see his trade secrets splashed around the blogosphere because some disgruntled former employee has found solace here.

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

---

by: Nonpartisan @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 22:43:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Which is why I don't reveal any (7.00 / 4)

Everything I've cited is directly available on the front page of Daily Kos.

There really aren't any trade secrets of Daily Kos. At least none I was ever given access to.

Incompetence is not a trade secret. Nor is malice.

---

by: peeder @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 22:50:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're talking about his business model (3.67 / 3)

and his projects, and were before all of them were revealed.

At any rate, uncool in my book.  Since it's not my site, I'll contstrain myself to leaving the occasional snarky comment.

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

---

by: Nonpartisan @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 22:59:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Link please (6.50 / 2)

Where do I reveal anything before it was made public on the front page of Daily Kos or via a link therefrom.

---

by: peeder @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:01:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's (2.00 / 2)

an impression of mine, let's leave it at that.

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

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by: Nonpartisan @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 00:52:38 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

That is simply not good enough. (4.33 / 3)

It is patently unfair to make such grave accusations and not produce a single piece of evidence to back it up. You know that.

The reason you don't have any evidence is because there isn't any. He's telling the truth. And I wish you would simply research it yourself if not satisfied with his word, and when you confirm it yourself, offer the appropriate apology, because you have been accusing him of heinous behaviour for a long time now and he isn't guilty of any of it.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 01:02:43 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Last one I swear (7.00 / 1)

So it's "patently unfair to make grave accusations and not produce a single piece of evidence to back it up"?

Unless of course we're making speculations about Markos' finances.

Hypocrite.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

---

by: Jake's Guilt @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 08:13:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fair enough (0.00 / 0)

Let me do some research, and I'll either post the evidence or apologize.

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

---

by: Nonpartisan @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 09:34:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Since it's a verifiably false statement (6.00 / 1)

you are obliged to retract it in the absence of contrary evidence.

You can give whatever opinion of me you wish.

And btw, you're welcome to out yourself first, so that we may scrutinize your worthiness.

---

by: peeder @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 01:04:09 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't run around (2.00 / 1)

claiming to be famous in Silicon Valley or published in the New York Times.  If you make those claims, some evidence is in order.

Not to say, of course, that I want you to out yourself.  I want you to stop making appeals to your own authority without giving people the opportunity to check them.

And maybe I want you to apologize for calling me, and a hundred thousand other loyal Democrats, morons for not getting banned at dKos.

And as for the accusations -- I'll do some research and get back to you.

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

---

by: Nonpartisan @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 09:35:57 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't know how you measure cocksize btw (7.50 / 2)

But Mr. Markos has only appeared in the NYTimes 2.5 times as often as I have. FWIW, which ain't much.

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by: peeder @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 01:11:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Displacement? (0.00 / 0)

At least, that's what I've heard...

http://news.softpedi...

My Left Wing Political t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.

---

by: Renee in Ohio @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 18:33:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh, you want CONFIDENTIAL information (8.00 / 3)

Here it is:  My former boss, Britney Spears...can't sing.  And is from Louisiana (I know, everybody thinks she's British).

She used to post here at MyLeftWing, in fact, as "Louisianagirl".

I have a question (a serious one, really):  Why is it that we only hear about the "disgruntled" former employees?  Why do we never hear about the "gruntled" ones?

I'm going to try and get people to say "gruntled" more often--start a trend of sorts.  Next time I'm in a restaurant and the waiter asks me how I liked my meal, I'm going to reply:  "I'd just like to say I'm a gruntled customer.  EXTREMELY gruntled."

You just wait and see, six months from now, Harry Reid will be saying that he is "gruntled" with the performance of Senate Democrats and Fergie will record a song called "My Grunts".

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

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by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:30:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Markos is reading this right now *dying* to note (7.67 / 3)

that I was a contractor and never an employee.

Think I'd call him "boss"? Maybe in a tweedy sense. =)

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by: peeder @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:34:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Irony (7.67 / 3)

Edmund Blackadder: "Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?"

Baldrick: "Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron."

http://www.lunaestas...

My Left Wing Political t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.

---

by: Renee in Ohio @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 22:45:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

i... (0.00 / 0)

...have a cunning plan.

jon stewart sez: "when i want news, i turn to cnn...and they turn...to skippy...the bush...kangaroo!"

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by: skippy @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 00:51:41 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Funny (3.00 / 1)

Nice catch NP.

For all the talk about the failings of hubris and ego, Markos' two biggest business critics might need to ice their arms down from all this self-congratulatory back patting.


(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

---

by: Jake's Guilt @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 22:49:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wait (0.00 / 0)

Who's the other one?

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

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by: Nonpartisan @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 22:59:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

He's (5.50 / 2)

currently trading snippy anectdotes with Peeder.

Ones is explaining how and why DKos will fail, the other is explaining why Markos knows that and doesn't really care.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see until 2009 whether or not the twin Buffets here are any more accurate than Stu Piddy.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

---

by: Jake's Guilt @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:11:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

C'mon NP (6.00 / 4)

This criticism is a little unfair coming from you.  You wear your own expertise in History in bright bold colors all over the place.  Peeder has been established as a programmer for DKos.  If he judges his own skills as superior to others that's for future employers to be the judge of.

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by: rustydude @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:23:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

NP (8.00 / 1)

I think, if you check, you will find that peeder is telling the truth. Nothing he is saying falls under the heading of "revealing" anything that isn't already available for perusal at DKos itself. None of it.

He hasn't revealed any of Markos's business models or trade secrets -- nothing that isn't already right there for the naked eye to see for itself at Daily Kos.

Honestly, I think you and Jake are really mistaken here. As to Jake's grumblings about the jovial tone between peeder and TBC, sure, they're having fun with it --and I know I may SEEM to lack credibility here as someone who MIGHT be thought to be a "disgruntled banned member," but I swear on my son's NOSE, I am not disgruntled.

I am, however, still as critical and discomfitted and righteously angry at the behaviour of that blog's proprietor and many of its membership. NOT the same thing as being "disgruntled," though the distinction might be difficult to make for some of the more fatuous denizens of the Orange Death Star (I kid! I kid!).

I also fail to see why Jake's Guilt and others who take his tack insist on pretending that, because they perceive the level of criticism of DKos here to be too strident and too frequent, that automatically confers on DKos immunity from the charges themselves. Pardon the expression, but apples and oranges, man.

I'm not going to suddenly curtail my legitimate criticism of someone or something -- or, for that matter, censor my enjoyment of snark and plays on words and language in general in the crafting of said criticism -- because people might THINK I'm disgruntled or bitter or envious or what-the-fuck-ever, you dig? I remain myself, warts and obnoxious personality and self-absorbed vanity, all defects of character intact and all character assets intact, as well (I should hope), despite the events unfolding as the days pass. I have no desire to become Marisacat v2. That territory is well traveled and, frankly, fallow.

Nor do I expect anyone else to censor himself. Including Jake's Guilt -- though I would have hoped by now he would get a whiff of his own redundancy as per constantly criticising the constant criticism of Kos and craft some new comments...

A lot of alliteration from anxious bloggers bellowing between the bytes.

: )

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:45:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So again (6.00 / 1)

criticism of Kos is understandably and obviously interesting and cool, but criticism of the critics is tedious, redundant and stale.

And why is that again?

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

---

by: Jake's Guilt @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:51:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I have no problem with criticism of dKos (3.00 / 1)

Though I can't join in much, for obvious reasons.

But I don't think it's appropriate for a former employee, or contractor, or whatever, of Markos to come over here and trash his former boss on your forum.

That is a BUSINESS relationship and is more important, and more sacrosanct, than the jabberings that go on over here.

Just my opinion.

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

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by: Nonpartisan @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 00:55:35 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

lemme guess... (7.50 / 2)

you're...

nonpartisan?

: )

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 01:03:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

the dysfunctional aspects were there much earlier (7.00 / 3)

the loyalty oaths and shut your fucking piehole houndings and such were well in place by early 2004, and unambiguously site culture by summer of 2004. by the time the ohio fraud battle, the pie battle and kid o's departure passed, what worthwhile things remained were on the descent, overwhelmed by folks who thrived on that kind of stuff.

it goes further back than 2005. there's still some value in the diaries, but the site as whole was moving in a bad direction much earlier.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

---

by: wu ming @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 00:37:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

damn damn double damn (0.00 / 0)

There's that "SYFPH houndings" thing again.

Mea culpa.

I was one of the hounds.

And I regret it more than I can express.

All I can say is that I have changed a great deal since then and were I offered the same circumstances today I would probably be one of those being TOLD to shut my fucking piehole.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 01:05:05 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

i know, maryscott (5.00 / 1)

and as far as i am concerned, you have made that more than clear, and i respect you for recognizing it and changing. most people just stonewall, instead of moving forward and learning from past mistakes. i would never have come here, much less spend so much time and energy discussing things, had i thought you had done otherwise.

raybin did it too, for what it's worth (we'll see if that draws him out of lurking, heh). we're all human, after all. please don't take this as a personal criticism, it was the overall dynamic that i was speaking to.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

---

by: wu ming @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 01:22:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The difference is (6.00 / 2)

For you it really was a short-term strategy in the space of fall 2004, and you dropped it soon thereafter.

For most others it was a renewal of a form of McCarthyism - less potent and more absurd, of course, but drawn from the same basic well.

---

by: eugene @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 01:32:32 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

From bad to worse (6.00 / 1)

The site had been moving in a bad direction for a while, but in the last 6 months or so it's accelerated dramatically. Some valuable diaries are still there, especially on health care, environment and climate change, things like that. That's the only reason I'm still there.

But anything on the campaign...yikes. It's getting ugly, and fast. If the site can't discuss the 2008 campaign without it devolving into massive flamewars then its fate is sealed.

And making it worse is the empowerment of various diary police and comment cops who are now rather openly using their power to get people banned merely for disagreement. This is what happened to Armando, pyrrho, and MSOC. The circumstances and conditions were different in each case. But the basics are the same - they stood their ground on progressive principles - while still being fairly supportive of Democrats - but instead ran into a wall of organized people who were determined to get rid of them.

MSOC is right, they wanted to get rid of her for a year. It was just a matter of building a case.

None of this is going to end well for that site. I am reminded of that classic episode of Danwei.tv that wu ming posted a few months back, where whatshisname goes off on all the idiots who post on Sina.com, mocking their self-importance and obnoxiousness.

There remains value at dKos. People like KagroX, or mcjoan, or Meteor Blades - they're good and decent, and will remain so, and will have careers long after the end of dKos.

But most of the rest...it's the afternoon for them.

---

by: eugene @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 01:39:46 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

ah, yes (9.50 / 2)

wang xiaofeng on blogging, idiots, cursing and meta. brilliant video clip, i think i'll watch it again, just for the cursing.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

---

by: wu ming @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 02:44:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

and while i'm at it, here's the video (8.67 / 3)

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

---

by: wu ming @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 02:56:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why are you so certain it will fail? (0.00 / 0)

i think integrating some form of social networking into daily kos is a really clever idea. facebook intentionally limited its audience, but it was still an astounding success. 

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by: spacebaby @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 20:01:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You forgot Banned in the USA (0.00 / 0)

Born down in a dead man's blog
The first kick I took was when I hit the ground
End up like a dog that's been beat too much
'Till you spend half your life just coverin' up
Banned in the USA
I was banned in the USA

Sorry, Bruce...I hadda do it.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

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by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:39:51 PM CDT

pyrrho!!!! (0.00 / 0)

DUDE, I had to delete your comment with the pics.

Under 400 wide -- at the BEGINNING of a thread. No 294 + 241 side by side, four inches into a thread!!!!

You're a TECH GUY! You know better!

tsk tsk tsk

Please repost?

Pretty please, pyyrho, post again?

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:48:18 PM CDT

BUT... (0.00 / 0)

in a NEW comment!

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Wed May 02, 2007 at 23:48:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Can't a tech guy set overflow and max-width properly? (7.00 / 1)

=) =) =)

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by: peeder @ Thu May 03, 2007 at 00:12:25 AM CDT

[ Parent ]