Two Peace Activists Banned From Daily Kos

Kos Family Was Part of the Junta in El Salvador (5.44 / 9)

Well, you must understand that the founder of Daily Kos comes from a family that, it appears...moved to El Salvador in the 1980's either coincidentally or because of the fact that the mother's brother had become Education Minister of El Salvador. The Education Minister in El Salvador ...whoever he was during the reign of the junta ...was alwasy part of the Junta and was responsible for rooting out students and professors from the university.

Kos said he saw students killed (as an 8 year old). They were killed he says by "communists"....My question..."Who told him that? Normally students were being killed by the Junta, not by communitsts. Kos says that he saw bodies in the market oozing blood (as an 8 year old)...Who killed the people in the Market? The explanation for what occurred was given to him by his family who, it appears were in part or whole, a part of the junta.

Kos says his family was protected by the military in El Salvador...from, presumably the communists or rebels who would have liked ....presumably to harm them.

The bits and pieces of his biography can be put together if you look at them carefully. I believe his family was probably part of the junta in El Salvador and his present psychological and political make up are largely a result of that experience...which has been wrongly interpreted for him by his family when he was only 8 years old and he has yet to put it together.

So you have in Kos a person who is not liberal at all....who tried to join the CIA and for whom "winning is everything".

That's the product of a child whose parents were part of a capatilist junta.

One of these days I'll write a diary about it. It's interesting how everything becomes completely distorted.

I'm willing to be anything this interpretation is accurate.

All the information above by the way regarding his family has been printed many times...it's not in dispute that his uncle was Education Minister in El Salvador and that the family left El Salvador to RETURN to the suburbs of Chicago when the civil war heated up.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:32:50 AM CDT

Well the rest of the story is not pleasant either. (4.17 / 6)

My understanding is that when he joined the military he was a Reagan Republican. After he left the military, he moved to Silicon Valley as a potential entrepreneur to make his millions, but failed. Somehow he got caught up in politics, joined Dean, and then went off on his own with the MyDD boys, and eventually to develop Daily Kos. He tapped an unfulfilled resource, Left Wing Democrats, who had been left in the cold through the Clinton era, and his success was phenomenal. Internet develop, however, has has remained his major focus, politics aside. That is why he left Daily Kos in the hands of underlings, to go off with his programmer to develop sports blogs. If you know anything about sports blogs, they are second only to Daily Kos and a few others in daily visits. There are 300,000 per day visits on blogs dedicated to single baseballs teams alone.

So money and entrepreneurship remains in this guy's mind. The question is this: should someone who is prone to make decision on the basis of the bottom profit line, capable of directing a favorite blog of the Democratic Left Wing?




Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

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by: shergald @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 11:34:05 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Your understanding of Daily Kos' history (0.00 / 0)

is not correct.

DailyKos began in 2002. Kos and Jerome Armstrong of MyDD started a consulting company in January 2003. Kos and Jerome's company was hired by the Dean campaign in May 2003. That company was dissolved in 2004.

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by: Buckeye BattleCry @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 09:08:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. (0.00 / 0)

I am dependent on what others publish or say, and understandings obtained in this manner may not always be correct or remembered correctly.

Thanks.



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

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by: shergald @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 18:16:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

WHy do you insist on bringing that into any discussion about Markos? (8.56 / 9)

It is not relevant, and it borders on slander if you cannot prove it, which you cannot -- I have seen you on more than one occasion petition other people for verification of these statements you so blithely post across the internets.

Markos Moulitsas is one of my least favourite people right now, but the things you say about him have never been corroborated, to my knowledge. If they can be, please provide appropriate links and references. Don't tell me "it's available" -- provide the proof of what you're claiming. The onus is on YOU, not the reader, to prove your case.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 16:26:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Kos Facts-Put them together-a picture emerges (6.75 / 4)

I have already done it and each time I mention that his family was opposed to the communists and his uncle was part of the junta someone says prove it.  It's in the Washington Monthly. His uncle was education minister in El Salvador...that's what Kos says.

What do you want me to prove?

If you want to find out what education ministers did ...they were part of the junta.. You can look it up.

I'm not going to re do all the links yet again....you can look them up on your own blog. I have put some factual pieces together. They create a picture of their own.

Since you know him so well....how come you don't seem to know that he says his uncle was education minister for El Salvador and that his familty was with the junta? He doesn't say "my uncle was with the junta...he says my uncle was education minister...he says he saw students killed by communists (as an 8 yr old) he says the army protected my family....he says the communitst wanted to harm his family....put it together on your own...

What does that say?

C'mon now. Lets' talk turkey. If i get the time I'll write a diary.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:16:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I have seen kos interviews where he (9.00 / 1)

admitted as much as well.  However, those students really may have been killed by communist/leftists. It was a civil war.  Many students fought on both sides.  I take the side of the left, as I viewed them as being social democrats who were more than willing to win through elections until the junta.

I look at this way, Kos's uncle was a low level bureaucrat, hired from a foreign country, I believe Greece, who maybe didn't know what he was getting into.

My focus will be on his present behavior, which I think is quite cowardly, or uninformed or both.

Dameocrat Blog

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by: Dameocrat @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 09:16:25 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dameocrat...I don't think that right (10.00 / 1)

No, his uncle I believe was his mother's brother and she is from El Salvador...if I'm not mistaken.... and The Minister of Education is anything but a low level bureaucrat...It's equivalent to a cabinet postion here in the U.S.

Students and professors are generallly killed or kidnapped in Latin American countries by the RIGHT WING..because the Universities are typically places where organized protest and opposition to the government is found...that's really true just about everywhere


Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 14:52:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

More on Marcos Moutisas (0.00 / 0)

i hope this put's things in perspective. (90% of atriocities committed by the government....possibly 5% by rebels.

And Markos claimed as an 8 years old he saw communists killing students....and dodged bullets in a market place....hmmmmm.

His uncle was minister of education....part of the military junta governmnet ....and he saw students being killed by "communists"....That event...if it ever occurred at all...had to be interpreted for him...He couldn't possilby understand what was happening politicallly....someone had to tell him who was killing who.

The facts of Salvadoran history were definitively established by a UN-sponsored truth commission in 1993. It concluded that 90 percent of the atrocities in the conflict were committed by the army and its surrogates, with the rebels responsible for 5 percent and the remaining 5 percent undetermined.

http://www.commondre...

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 15:11:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm really sick of this crap. (8.67 / 3)

The Washington Post says:

Moulitsas was born in Chicago to a middle class, ethnically-Greek family from El Salvador (his uncle, an architect, had briefly been that country's education minister).

Markos Moulitsas Zuniga's family left El Salvador in 1980, when he was nine years old.  That means he lived in El Salvador from 1975 to 1980.  If you know anything about El Salvadoran history, you know that the Civil War STARTED in 1980 after Duarte and the PDC took power by a coup.  The Civil War lasted from 1980-1992, and the 1993 Truth Commission report you rely upon covers that period of El Salvador's history.

I really think it is anything BUT sinister that his family fled El Salvador the year the civil war started.  By definition if his family LEFT El Salvador in 1980, they could not have been participants in the bloodshed to any significant degree perpetrated by the PDC controlled government forces, by the ARENA death squads, or by the FMLN. 

In fact, the stories you are relating seem to suggest that Markos' uncle was "briefly" Education Minister under a pre-Duarte government.  I would not be surprised to discover that his uncle was in the Romero government that was the subject of Duarte's coup. 

I do think this is trollish behavior.

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by: cityduck @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 15:39:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I said Washington Post (0.00 / 0)

but I meant Washington Monthly.  How conveneint you don't link or quote your source.

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by: cityduck @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 15:41:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Suburban Duck (4.50 / 2)

I;ll write a diary for you and explain the whole thing....

You don't seem to understand someithing...City Duck

He says the Salvadoran army protected his family...he says he saw students killed by "communists"...he says he dodged bullets in a market place....blah, blah, blah....

He and his family by his account were involved and witnesses of the civil war...

I'm sick of it too....

I' have to re...explain everything to people who are unwilling to simply put two and two together.

I have linked the sources before...I'm tired of doing it....

Some of you guys just don't want to see what you don't want to see.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 16:36:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'd suggest you read up on the history (7.50 / 2)

of El Salvador.  You keep talking about how Markos' uncle was a part of "the junta," but El Salvador had three "junta's" between 1979 and 1982.  Your comments suggest to me that your grasp of El Salvador history is tenuous, and it causes me no faith in your accusations that you can't (1) identify Markos' uncle or (2) the government he "briefly" worked for.  The first of those three "junta's" gained power in a coup of a President who was in power from 1977-1979, pre-civil war, which would seem like a lead candidate for the government in which Markos' uncle "briefly" served.  Do you know otherwise?

I want some facts.  Do you have any?  Or just worthless troll comments?

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by: cityduck @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 17:26:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I dont really care about Markos (5.75 / 4)

But I hate was DK is doing right now and hunters claim of....

"I am personally quite empathetic to the Palestinian side"

http://www.dailykos....

I think its BS- Just like people who say racist crap and then after "Oh, I'm not racist~ I have Black Friends"

But if you really want to put on a Tin Foil Hat (I have been known to ware at times) Here is a New one KOS is military acronym- Kill On Sight and any one who has been in the military knows that!

"Money?"

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by: Beach @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 23:44:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not many could disagree with your take (4.33 / 3)

on Kos administrators concern for the Israeli Palestinian conflict, and the plight of the Palestinians, their killing which continues, and the expropriation of their land in the West Bank.

America's support of Israel in this endeavor implicates all of us in what is happening.



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

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by: shergald @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 18:21:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Kos Quote for Duck (0.00 / 0)

Kos  "I actually grew up in a war zone," he wrote. "I witnessed communist guerillas execute students accused of being government collaborators. I was 8 years old, and I remember stepping over a dead body, warm blood flowing from a fresh wound. ...

http://www.drudge.co...

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 16:45:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What's your point? (8.67 / 3)

If you follow your link trail through Drudge and back the actual diary by Kos you will see he made the following statement in the context of explaining the anti-war emotions that led to his famous anti-mercenary statements:

Unlike the vast majority of people in this country, I actually grew up in a war zone. I witnessed communist guerillas execute students accused of being government collaborators. I was 8 years old, and I remember stepping over a dead body, warm blood flowing from a fresh wound. Dodging bullets while at market. I lived in the midsts of hate the likes of which most of you will never understand (Clinton and Bush hatred is nothing compared to that generated when people kill each other for politics or race or nationality). There's no way I could ever describe the ways this experience colors my worldview.

So what is your problem with that statement?  If he was 8, he is contending that he had this experience in 1979 or 1980.  If your contention is that he is lying, all I can say is that the truth commission report notes that in early 1980 there was anti-government violence in the form of occupations of radio stations, bombings of newspapers (La Prensa Gráfica and El Diario de Hoy), abductions, executions and attacks on military targets, particularly by the Fuerzas Populares de Liberación (FPL) and the Ejército Revolucionario del Pueblo (ERP).  FPL and ERP would later band together with other groups to form FMLN.  But, I can't defend the truth of his statement since I have no idea what he claims he saw. 

Again, so what's your problem?

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by: cityduck @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 17:09:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

My problem (9.00 / 1)

It's interesting that you ask me what MY problem is.

My response was to your statement that there was no real conflict during the time Kos was in El Salvador....

If that's true then why did he say he saw all this violence?

Any way it's his postion...not mine that he "grew up in a war zone"....that's what he says.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 01:37:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Elliot Abrhams: America Doesn't like Palestinians (10.33 / 3)

Just to show how ridiculous and phony America is....here is Elliot Abrahams ...a government official ...(Liar and crook) itelling the Jewish Republicans- some of whom -who control and direct American Foregin Policy (badly) for Israel that the American efforts to bring peace betweeen the Palestinians and the Israeli's is "all for show". America has to appease the Europeans.....America has to at least make it look like they are doing something...to bring peace between Israel and Palestine.

All of the American tactics being used in Iraq.by the way...house to house searches...blowing walls between adjoining apartments so troops can pass without having to go outside and be shot at...torture, rendition...are from the Israel model of doing business with the Palestinians.

This is from Haaretz:

U.S. Deputy National Security Advisor Elliott Abrams on Thursday told a group of Jewish Republicans that the efforts the United States is now investing in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is aimed at lessening the pressure from Arabs and the Europeans, who weren't happy with the United States in its past approach.

Abrams was quoted by sources present at the meeting as saying Arab and European states want to see that there's at least an attempt or energy being exerted by the U.S. to move the peace process forward.

Abrams explained that the talks are sometimes not more than "process for the sake of process."

The comments were made during a breakfast meeting of a forum of Jewish Republicans directed by Congressman Eric Cantor of Virginia, chief deputy minority whip.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:43:23 AM CDT

More on Abrahams (11.00 / 4)

Here's the link.

http://www.haaretz.c...

More from the article

"Some of the attendees understood Abrams' comments as an assurance that the peace initiative promoted by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice doesn't have the full backing of President George W. Bush.

"He was basically telling us that he [the president] will not let it get out of hand," one of them said."

In other words Bush isn't going to let the peace process get out of hand by actually lending any support to the Palestinians. It's just for show. Israel is backed 100% and Palestinians get 0.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:47:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Convicted without charges or a trial (10.29 / 7)

From what i can understand,

To be the demise of my 3 day 'career' on DailyKos,

As far as I can surmise:,

And that is all I can do,

For although, I emailed over half a dozen people at DailyKos to talk to me as to how I could rectify my sin against their empire that got me banned;

NOT one of them had the desire to email me back.

So, the best I can surmise is that because I did not include a broken link to a few quotes sited from a newspaper article someone had forwarded to me about a neo-Christian Zionist's pep rally where John Hagee-the epitome of the Anti-Christ-was igniting the lust for Armageddon by fear-filled, miss-informed, uninformed, apathetic, dare I say: cold hearted Stage 2 souls that flock to Anti-Christ leaders such as Hagee;

I was forever banned without a trial; without charges!!!

I kicked the dust off my feet and am easily read @ my site and recent articles are @

http://www.thepeople... =Search

Eileen Fleming, Passionate Member of The New Fourth Estate: Civilian journalists/bloggers who do NOT take orders from editors or paychecks from conglomerates.

We just follow our heart and tell the truth.

e
http://www.wearewide...

Eileen Fleming, Agitator church, state and limp MSM.

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by: eileen fleming @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 10:51:51 AM CDT

Looks like you committed the cardinal sins (7.86 / 7)

of bashing Hillary at Kos, of attacking AIPAC, and of failing to blockquote, which as we all know leads straight to Kos hell.

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by: Steven D @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 11:14:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Eileen. You did nothing wrong except.... (6.50 / 6)

being a peace activist concerned with the plight and injustices perpetrated against the Palestinian people.

Pure and simple. I was banned twice from Daily Kos for the same reason. Although some right wing Zionists made up some lies about my demise, the truth is just what I said it was in your own case.



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

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by: shergald @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 11:37:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wrong. (7.33 / 6)

If I understand it correctly, you were banned from Kos because of plain and simple copyright violation, rather, a pattern thereof. Big no-no. It could also have had something to do with that unpleasant habit of yours of asking other users whether they enjoyed killing babies, or perhaps with the ceaseless yelping about which people were 'Hasbara' or 'GIUYS' trolls.

Additional point of fact: nobody gets banned twice, because the first banning is enough. What you did, rather, was return under a variety of false guises, including zilly, tiztiq, jackaloon, American in Dublin, whatnot. You even got kicked off the Evenhanded Democrats blog because of your trollish behavior; this because, simply put, you lied to them by asserting you were not trolling Kos any longer, or so they aver. Thing is, most people involved will take their word over yours.

And right now, because you've brought various propagandists to Kos, including Ben Heine and Desert Peace, along with others, the admins are seriously considering a topical ban on diaries having to do with Israel. It's at this point due in large part to your behavior.

So stop bitching and whining about how mean others are to you, or how it's all one big Zionist plot, suppression, blah blah blah. Simple fact is that you're consistently violating Kos rules. And if you care, conversely, so little about Kos, you really should stop sending emails to Hunter within a few minutes of your name being mentioned, shouldn't you now?

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by: MBNYC @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 09:16:53 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

So if he was banned because of a simple (9.00 / 1)

copyright violation what is wrong with Shergald inviting others of like opinions to post?  This is getting more and more absurd.  Of coarse we take advise from people who believe pointing out that muslim, christians and jews believe in the same god, is supersessionism, so I should be suprised, at how silly this is getting.

Dameocrat Blog

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by: Dameocrat @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 21:02:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You speak in ignorance (8.00 / 4)

Shergald was indeed banned twice.  A number of Kosevites wrote to urge his reinstatement, which was granted.

After a short time, he was banned again - AND NO ONE BUT KOS KNOWS THE REASON.  Shergald doesn't.  He may conjecture, but he has never been told.  No one from Kos admin has ever responded to queries on this subject with an answer.

You may conjecture as well, but that's all it is, reaching up your ass for unsupported theories.

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by: Miss Mannered @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 21:31:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This is stupidity personified. (1.00 / 2)

Well I suppose you have to be a person before you can be stupid. I withdraw the statement on grammatical grounds.

Kos was so embarassed by the publicity his purge of peace activists, that he now claims that Eileen Fleming was not banned. Maybe he is willing to explain why she was unable to post diaries or comment until now.

And aren't you exceeding you authority here. I thought that aAmerican, Jay Elias, and jhritz were assigned to the "right wing Zionist diary police."




Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

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by: shergald @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 18:26:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

sorry to hear Eileen, (10.17 / 6)

I find your essays well-thought out, inspired and passionate with falling into any of the traps of angrier speech, that so move many not to listen well to a truth.

I am glad you still write here!

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by: Diane W @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 12:54:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Didn't ya know, being a kos administrator means never... (10.60 / 5)

... ever having to explain your capricious actions. Seriously though, I don't know if they do out of apathy or just 'cuz they can.

But just think, Eileen, now you find yourself in a friendly place where peace'niks and democracy lovers are welcome.

So... welcome!

Dubb'ya, repeat after me... "Suicide is painless."

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by: Flirtin with Disaster @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 16:33:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Neither wing of the (9.33 / 3)

American Capitalist Party wants Peace.  The military industrial complex has told both wings that that's the Party line.  The rulers in Israel are happy to throw their lot in with the American's as long as their little black bag shows up each month.  It must have been Abrams turn to drop off the cash this month.  Peace

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by: imhotep @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 14:44:23 PM CDT

Please provide links... (9.00 / 1)

to the posts that got them banned, or the posts that "supposedly" were the reasons they were banned. For instance, I saw someone above mention Eileen's neglecting to blockquote -- is there a link to that?

Links -- very important.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 16:28:02 PM CDT

Come on...Maryscott. (7.80 / 5)

Forget to blockquote and you get banned? That's just looking for an excuse to ban someone. In all likelihood, Eileen was reported to the adminstration by one of the several or dozens of right wing Zionists on the blog, who carry on regular email complaints against anyone supporting the plight of the Palestinians or saying anything demeaning about Israel policy. Those people actually keep dossiers on bloggers they believe are unfriendly towards Israeli occupation of the Palestinians, and they share them. I have had the same crap thrown back at me from several of them, in blockquotes, no less.

They are a very organized group, and Kos is happy to have them telling him who to ban and who not to ban. If you look at any typical IP diary, there are dozens of right wing Zionists, who hijack the diary in the manner of trolls, distract it, demean the messenger, dump cartoons and recipes into it, in short, do everything they can to create havoc. Strangely, although this behavior would get anyone banned anywhere else, on Kos, it is not only acceptable, but the administration carries on and reports back to them, as if they were in charge. You should have read Hunter's comments on the last diary by DesertPeace.




Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

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by: shergald @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 18:04:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Several or dozens? (9.00 / 1)

I don't frequent dkos that much anymore. Not since right around the time you left. (coincidental) i don't remember dozens, and very few represented true right wing zionist views. I remember a few, (several works) that had sometimes fair criticism, sometimes off the wall criticism. My question is ...do you really have evidence that they (and using "they" bothers me, I doubt "they" are the least bit organized) have ever told Kos who to ban where you know that he banned based on those complaints? I have no doubt that Markos looks for reasons to ban people that annoy him. I do doubt, without further evidence, that he pays any attention to anyone, besides maybe his FP'ers. Even less likely he pays much heed to "several" who don't share your views.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

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by: Kane in CA @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 18:55:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

a handful, not dozens (7.00 / 3)

There are dozens of zionists at kos, but that's not the problem. The problem are the organized troll mob, which I think numbers 5 or 6. And by 'troll' I mean deliberately disruptive and abusive toward diaries sympathetic toward Palestine. And this organized trolling goes unpunished, while apparently once forgetting to blockquote is.

I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

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by: fairleft @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:19:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

That group you are talking about, (4.67 / 3)

disrupted diaries in way classically attributed to "trolls," if you will look up the definition. Yet, Kos continually ignored their antics and put attention on the diarist who was subjected to it.



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

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by: shergald @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 18:29:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

often it seems (6.00 / 1)

that "deliberately disruptive" would mean anyone that disagrees with the thesis of the diaries. Which invariably leads to claims of an attack by right wing zionists. If you're claiming the high ground on the part of the pro-palestinian diarists, regarding the meta issues, that claim is problematic at best.

Whether or not its organized, I have no idea. I suspect you don't either. "They" certainly do not appear any more organized than the shergold replacements since his banning.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

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by: Kane in CA @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 18:39:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You won't have any examples of that (6.00 / 2)

"anyone who disagrees" as what I'm referring to when I talk about "deliberatively disruptive." But virtually any diary hit by the mob shows immediate off-topic comments and lots of direct unprovoked personal insults and aspersions.

For example, take a look at the 81 comment (!) off-topic insult-filled thread after Umkahlil 'provocatively' posted her tip jar (containing her usual politeness and request to stay on topic). I write about it here:
http://www.myleftwin...

I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

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by: fairleft @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 18:57:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You misunderstand me. (9.00 / 1)

I am most definitely NOT agreeing with the decision to ban -- hell, I don't agree with banning for FAR worse behaviour than that, for heaven's sake -- as MLWers well know.

I'm simply asking for links and references so I may apprise myself of the full story, with all details available.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 20:17:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Here you go (8.50 / 6)

http://www.dailykos....

And just in case the link doesn't work:

OK, here's the deal. (16+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
  Meteor Blades, clonecone, taylormattd, Eternal Hope, JPhurst, Catte Nappe, Turkana, unfounded, Jay Elias, buddabelly, MBNYC, blueness, Eric S, Shane Hensinger, jhritz, dfb1968

As a result of this thread, I've just gotten the following email from shergald:

 

Any right wing Zionist who accuses anyone of being shergald is immediately banned. Anyone one who accuses anyone of being recruited by shergald is immediately banned.

  Is Kos really on the AIPAC/ZOA take?

  I have not been around DKos for almost the past three weeks. But I am coming back now. And no amount of cookies will stop me.

  Kos may own Daily Kos, but he does not own the content. He said so himself. But when you attempt to do that anyway through banning individuals, it has gone too far. Kos will determine the political positions of DKos members nor determine what can and what cannot be discussed among the left wing of the party. shergald

For the rest of this, I'm not speaking "officially" for the site in any capacity. I'm speaking for me, personally.

For those of you following the I/P dramas, you can see two things from the above email.  First, this particular character is quite obsessed with everything going on at DailyKos -- within 20 minutes of the his name coming up, he knew about it and had responded to it in a pissy email to me. This is standard practice, and demonstrates that either he's on this site 24/7, or there's an ongoing number of people who are still working with him to make sure he knows when pro-Palestinian threads are going up. That's neither here nor there, but an interesting subtext that isn't lost on the admins.

Second, I believe this demonstrates why every single new pro-Palestinian poster in these threads is going to be presumed guilty until proven innocent, from here on in. I ain't gonna screw around trying to invent elaborate ways of detecting this clown, I'm just going to ban anyone that sounds vaguely like him. I don't have the kind of time in my day necessary to worry about any more "fair" solution, and no inclination. If that results in his side of the discussion being completely wiped from the site except for already well-established posters, then frankly I'm having a hard time getting all teary-eyed about that.

So at this point, here's my question. On both sides, this debate has devolved into one of manipulation. There's no "solution" to be had, just an ongoing stream of high-invective trollrating wars while two entrenched sides that aren't ever going to be convinced and who don't give a flying damn about any other issues on the site launch into each other, attempting to fight the whole I/P issue out in miniature, thread by thread, much to the embarrassment of everyone else on the site who holds views distinctly in the middle of both extremes.

How do these discussions have any merit, at this point? Clearly, both sides are merely using Daily Kos as convenient outlet for propaganda. Nobody gives a flying damn about actual policy resolution; nobody is going to convince anyone. It's all "Zionist"-this and "anti-Zionist"-that and so-and-so-is-a-racist and so-and-so-is-a-reverse-racist. No Democrats worth voting for or listening to are going to take these debates seriously, and activists from far-right to far-left simply use them as (perhaps accurate) examples of the worst of each side of the debate. The vast majority of us are sick of them, just like we got sick of the 9/11 "why didn't the towers fall sideways" crap that would require gravity to suddenly alter its very nature in order to prove the "theories" correct and actual scientists wrong.

It should be clearly noted here that from where I stand, the pro-Palestinian side is more organized in their manipulation of this site in an effort to make their views seem more dominant then they are. And that's entirely because of a very small but ongoing collection of posters surrounding Shergald. He lost a lot of his old friends when he lied to them, repeatedly, about sockpuppeting here -- to their distinct credit, they cut him loose when they found out about it -- but it seems there's never any shortage of new associates he can hang out with. (It's especially aggravating because I am personally quite empathetic to the Palestinian side of the debate -- they've gotten screwed quite constantly by Israel, a point which isn't lost on reasonable people.)

That leads to the obvious point -- one not arrived at strictly because of shergald, but because his "style" of dishonesty and manipulation are the standard practice in most of these diaries, among a great number of posters. I'm personally thinking it's time to ban these discussions outright, and send them elsewhere.

Alternatively, we can clean them up, hardass-style. We can just go through the old threads and ban any of the various people who post virulently in these threads to the exclusion of all other Democratic/liberal topics. Or we can go through and just nix all the people who are middling along past the autoban now because of their constant trollratings in these threads, and that would eliminate a very healthy number of the most venomous arguers from both sides.  Something to that effect.  (Or, hell, we admins can rightly determine that the pro-Palestinian side is far, far more invested with sockpuppets and dishonest manipulations, and just ban that side of the argument outright. That'd maybe be the fairest short-term thing to do, but I don't see any reason to reward the crap heaved from the other side, either, which is long-term what that would be doing.)

So what should we do, here? And don't give me any horseshit about how valuable these discussions are, because they're not -- at no point has either side even come close to attempting to reach policy positions with the other, it's just one constant, high-drama piefight with race-baiting and teeth-gnashing.

So I'm game, let me know what to do. Everyone who wants to continue having these debates, it's up to you to find a solution that can clean them up and make them have sufficient merit such that it doesn't result in the site being embarrassed to even host them. If you want to post some proposals or something, I'm all ears. But at this point, banning them seems the solution that will best serve the entire rest of the site.

by Hunter on Thu May 10, 2007 at 01:11:19 PM PDT

And regarding the continuous allegations from the pro-Palestinian camp that the evil Zionists are always complaining to the admins, we have this exchange:

Because if not for the complainers (who, unsurprisingly, tend to come from one side of the debate), the admins wouldn't have such negative attitudes toward the diaries themselves. There's clearly one side interested in banning the diaries outright. Maybe we should just ban that side.

...the girls will get reports on the hour / from boys on the catwalk by the tower...

by Diaries on Thu May 10, 2007 at 01:42:08 PM PDT

to which Hunter responded:

If the complainers weren't right (6+ / 0-)

80% of the time, you might have a point, but after being called in to track down the latest shergald for the dozenth or so time, and after wandering through all the trollratings on a daily basis, I can assure you I'd have a negative attitude towards the diaries regardless of whether someone told me to or not.

I'll say that my own email is divided 50/50 between the two sides, however. Make of that what you will.

by Hunter on Thu May 10, 2007 at 02:04:08 PM PDT

followed by:

Well Hunter (7+ / 0-)

Although these diaries are a long standing problem, I'm afraid this particular bullshit shitstorm is my fault given that I emailed you. I don't usually email you about anything at all (in fact, I don't recall if I have ever done so), and I am only an occasional participant in these diaries. It appears, however, that I was wrong in my email suggesting I believed desertpeace was shergald, and I apologize for that.

I said this above, but it warrants repeating to you here. I've googled the desertpeace site (which obviously I should have done earlier), and it appears shergald is not desertpeace. I found several posts where shergald, commenting as himself, is talking to desertpeace. I believe my error in memory came for some strange reason from that Ben Heine diary which I think was posted around the time shergald was banned.

by taylormattd on Thu May 10, 2007 at 02:17:33 PM PDT

to which Hunter responded:

I've banned him anyway. (7+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
  Rusty Pipes, unfounded, MBNYC, blueness, EnderRS, Terra Mystica, jhritz

No, he's not shergald, but the only reason he didn't hit autoban today is because he didn't post any comments in his own diary... which counts as sufficiently manipulative that, when added to a cartoon taken from one banned poster and and an offsite association with another, I'm not going to feel bad about it.

by Hunter on Thu May 10, 2007 at 02:36:13 PM PDT

Kind of interesting when you go beyond what the pathological liar Shergald chooses to tell you, eh?

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 23:28:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hunter ought to be ashamed (5.60 / 5)

He is censoring an important national security issue just because he doesn't want to lose donations from right wing zionists.

There are a million issues where people expose abuses, without proposing solutions on kos, but kos takes the side of the left on those issues, thus right winger idiots that hijack threads don't last long.  It's been obvious for a long time prosettlers aren't progressives, but they donate money so people like Hunter drop the issue, despite the fact that the resolution of this crisis is actually critical to having true peace in the middle-east.

Hunter, Kos, shit or get off the pot!  Banning progressive zionists and supporters of the two state solution or antizionists, is no different from what banning critics of the war was, 3 years ago.

God I was praying Carter would change this attitude, but I have come to the conclusion that the only thing that will change is to stop using forums which censor the issue, and that means saying bye bye to kos, and recommending other progressives do the same.  Also we need about 10 more Carter caliber people to speak out and keep speaking out. 

I am definately recommending any and all diaries that deal with the issue of kossack anti palestinian censorship.

On the bright side, I am glad to see propalestinians are getting just as organized as hasbarah organizations.

Shergald, keep up the good work.


Dameocrat Blog

---

by: Dameocrat @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 09:07:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

This of course is bullshit and had nothing (5.75 / 4)

to do with why other people were banned. You do not censor an important foreign policy issue on a political blog by banning 8 people because someone did this or that. All the people banned were proPalestinian peace activists, and all of them were diarists.

No right wing proIsrael Zionist diarist has ever been banned. I noted two commenters that came over from Little Green Footballs who virtually suicided, but no others. The behavior of the right wing Zionists on diaries, to hijack and disrupt them, is a well known phenomenon at Daily Kos, but it was tolerated and never censored. In fact, it is the kind of behavior symptomatic of trolls. No response from Kos administrators concerning it. Actually, it is that behavior that made the IP diaries controversial. Instead of banning the people responsible, Kos banned the diarists.

Does anyone know what is going on?



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

---

by: shergald @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 18:35:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And... (9.00 / 4)

"You should have read Hunter's comments..."

is exactly why I'm asking for the links!!!

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 20:19:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

link for Maryscott (7.00 / 4)

The pertinent "Hunter" comment is near the bottom of the comments . . . the "money quote" is:

"every single new pro-Palestinian poster in these threads is going to be presumed guilty until proven innocent, from here on in. I ain't gonna screw around trying to invent elaborate ways of detecting this clown [Shergald], I'm just going to ban anyone that sounds vaguely like him".

There's a lot of fluff around it, to "justify" that statement, but what it means is that henceforth anyone "new" who opposes the occupation or defends Palestinian rights (in other words, sounds like Shergald) will be banned.  It won't be long before that gets expanded to include people who've been there a while (it's happened before, eh?).

http://www.dailykos....

Just searching on comments by Hunter will get more . . . it's all he's posted about for the past two weeks.  Cleaning out any criticism of Israel seems to be his assignment.

Guess we know now where the "back channel" money is coming from . . .

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

---

by: Deward Hastings @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 23:16:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually, you got it completely wrong (11.00 / 3)

The money quote was the text of Shergald's e-mail to Hunter. But rather than selectively excerpting, as you have done, I've provided the full text of Hunter's comment.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 23:31:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks, Paul, for your comments. (5.78 / 9)

But I still recommend that you get some coffee and wake up before you make them. Yes, my threat to return was inappropriate. However, watching FIVE proPalestinians "diarists" banned from Daily Kos without rhyme or reason, the last two peace activists of note, is hard to accept. Clearly, since your own posts as well as the posts of many others are intended to stop IP diaries, I have no sympathy with your own stance.

The only people who turn those diaries into flame wars are people like yourself, who have nothing to say about the truth or easily verified facts in a diary, but only to hijack and distract them. Then you like to claim that these diaries should be banned because they are problematic. Obviously, if right wing proIsrael bloggers like yourself engage in such flaming wars, in fact, start them off, usually with get the diarist behavior, then turn around and blame that behavior on the other side, it is evident that your purpose is to censor and bannish IP diaries from Kos.

The majority of your comments on my own diaries add up to just that. You continually admit that you are aversive toward anything negative said about Israel.

James Risser did a poll on whether IP diaries should be banned and of the almost 700 that voted, only 3% voted yes to ban. Around 75% said no banning, leave them lone. The other minority positions said no banning but some kind of rules should be instituted.

If Kos wanted to clean up the IP diary issue, he should ban people who act like trolls, those with the intent to disturb diaries using antics I have described. But he doesn't. In fact, Hunter's behavior during the Desert Peace banning shows that he retains a very friendly relationship with the ProZionist muck-rakers.



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

---

by: shergald @ Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:47:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Link to the poll... (9.00 / 1)

http://www.dailykos....




Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

---

by: shergald @ Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:50:38 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Do you ever stop lying? (6.80 / 5)

No point in answering that question, joe, because of course nobody could believe anything you say.

You accuse me of wanting to shut down I/P debate, but anyone can check my comments in the various diaries spawned by Hunter's request, and see that I was suggesting ways to avoid a banning of that topic.  So again, you are a liar.

You lie to people who you consider enemies. You lie to strangers. You lie to yourself.  And you even lie to people who might consider you a friend.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:08:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Lies? (4.00 / 11)

Paul, I have presented numerous diaries on the facts pertaining to what is happening in Israel-Palestine. And that is your problem: the truth. Most of your criticisms pertain to its suppression. You call it Israel-bashing. However, short of silence, there is no amount of lipstick you can put on a pig to turn the truth into lies. So, who is the liar here?

You may think that killing Palestinians in order to take their land is justified, but I don't. And if you don't think that that is what is happening, I would guess it is you who is lying to himself.

Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

---

by: shergald @ Mon May 14, 2007 at 12:20:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The only one with a problem with the truth (8.75 / 4)

is you...mainly, that you are completely unfamiliar with the truth.

You falsely asserted that I was doing X,Y, and Z -- and I called you out on it, exposed you for the liar that you are. So here you are, squealing like a stuck pig, trying to change the subject to something less uncomfortable.  And right back to your old tricks, telling more lies, claiming falsely that I think killing Palestinians to take their land is justified. You are a pathetic, disgusting liar, a weasel who does more harm to Palestinians than anyone in Blogtopia. You should be ashamed of yourself, but shamelessness is one of your hallmarks. 

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Mon May 14, 2007 at 13:58:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Indeed you have (7.33 / 3)

Paul, I have presented numerous diaries on the facts pertaining to what is happening in Israel-Palestine.

True enough. The fact that you've done so under roughly a dozen sockpuppet identities has some bearing on the matter, however, and since you refuse to mention that, well, I just did.

---

by: MBNYC @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 09:23:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Never wrote an uninformative diary, thank you. (5.50 / 2)

Your problem and the problem of your cohorts is that your wish is to have these diaries stopped altogether, because they constitute bad publicity for Israel. Paul for example was the first I remember to use the notion of "Israel bashing." He would get incredibly angry. Well, if the truth hurts, and you want to change the observations, then you change your behavior. The truth will always hurt otherwise.



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

---

by: shergald @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 18:43:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks for providing those quotes (5.83 / 6)

but Hunter's Stalinist responce justifies shergald in my view. 

Dameocrat Blog

---

by: Dameocrat @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 09:22:17 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

They were lucky (7.17 / 6)

Shergald as usual gets it wrong. There aren't dozens of right-wing likudniks at DKos. There are tens of thousands -- 42,532 to be exact. And I am the Ruler of them, the Chief Elder of Zion. Markos doesn't go the toilet without my permission. So yes, I gave the order to ban those two, because they displeased me. Others wanted them tarred and feathered, but that's too messy.  The cleanup takes forever after a good tar-and-feathering, even with palestinian slave labor.  You just can't get good help nowadays. 

Speaking of which, the financial markets in Europe are due to open any moment now, and I have to decide which stocks will go up and which will go down. So much to do, so little time.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Sun May 13, 2007 at 23:15:17 PM CDT

Is this your version (7.00 / 1)

of a victory dance?

---

by: Yetimonk @ Mon May 14, 2007 at 00:33:37 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Nope (0.00 / 0)

You'll have to tune in to the finale of Dancing With the Stars to see my version of a victory dance.  I can tell you this much, though -- it will be a mambo.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Mon May 14, 2007 at 00:39:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Stick with finance, Paul. (4.75 / 8)

You certainly know nothing about propaganda. What if I told you I were a GIYUS operative myself? It is very easy to join up and be sent on rides around the internet to praise, essentially, the assets of military occupation. Of course, no one would use that term.



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

---

by: shergald @ Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:54:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I wouldn't be surprised (7.83 / 6)

if you were a GIYUS operative. You do such a shitty job of advocating for the Palestinians, and you discredit their cause so much with your constant and pervasive lying, that it would be the perfect Israeli propaganda program.  Every time you open your mouth, the Palestinians groan with despair, because you just dig that hole deeper and deeper for them.

You're doing a heckuva job, brownie.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:10:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Paul, when you agree with me, I will know something (5.00 / 5)

is terribly wrong. But as it stands, you are where you should be, feigning concern for the Palestinians, and I am where I should be, advocating for their cause of freedom. Bye.



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

---

by: shergald @ Mon May 14, 2007 at 12:23:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Eileen Flemming: I've no idea why she was banned, (9.00 / 1)

but her last diary at Daily Kos repeats a classic theme of theological Christian antisemitism:

"my understanding of Israel is anyone and everyone who struggles, wrestles and clings to  God is Israel"

The technical name for this doctrine is supersessionism, the claim that the Church is the "new Israel" that spiritually replaces the physical people Israel.

I would not be surprised to learn that Eileen Flemming was unaware of, and did not intend, this classic antisemitic theme. I call attention to it, however, because her use of it shows how widespread antisemitic structures are in western culture, even among people who regard themselves as liberal, progressive, or radical antiracists.

Will this realization, I wonder, lead to a recognition that, whatever the spiritual relationship or status of Christians vis-a-vis God, the physical people Israel continues to exist and, like other peoples, including the Palestinian people, is entitled to national self-determination? Hence the program: two states for two peoples.

"Democracy signifies rule of the majority, but not less the protection of minorities." Karl Kautsky

---

by: one of the people @ Mon May 14, 2007 at 14:15:02 PM CDT

You might want to address her about it (0.00 / 0)

on her site.

PS: Since a bantustan can be considered a state, two states has become a meaningless phrase. Whatever, presently, the Israel government could obviously care less about two states as they are moving forward with more land confiscations on the West Bank and fortifying and enlarging their villages, towns, and cities in the West Bank.

IN any case, while playing word games, you might wish to tell the audience just how Israel intends to get rid of 150 Israeli only towns and cities and roughly 100 illegal settlements in the West Bank in order to make room for a continguous abd sovereign Palestinian state with its own borders and airspace?



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

---

by: shergald @ Mon May 14, 2007 at 14:51:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

then kos really has been taken over by (4.75 / 4)

some extremist, because it would only be supersessionism if she claimed the christian covenant, replaced Judaism.  This is just a claim that all three religions believe in the same god which is true.

Dameocrat Blog

---

by: Dameocrat @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 08:21:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Please see my comment downthread. n/t (0.00 / 0)

"Truth has no time of its own. Its hour is now -- always, and indeed then most truly when it seems most unsuitable to actual circumstances."

---

by: roysol @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 14:53:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yo Shergald (6.50 / 2)

You need to update your story. Another diarist, Anna in Palestine, was just banned, this time for disseminating, literally, terrorist messages.

http://www.dailykos....

I met some of the hunted the day before I left Nablus, including a leader of Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, whom I'll call Moussa. An acquaintance led a colleague and me to where a group of them were sitting and drinking juice in the Old City. They welcomed us and brought us sweet coffee. Moussa was a soft-spoken man not much older than forty, while most of the other wanted men were mere teenagers, curious and excited to meet foreigners. Moussa raised his voice just once during our conversation, to yell at one of the boys for trying to take my picture on his cell phone. He said it could be extremely dangerous for soldiers to find evidence of our meeting if/when the men were caught or killed, and refused my business card for the same reason.

After some time, I asked Moussa if he had a message to the people of America. He thanked me for the opportunity and began to speak:

Edited. Information being conveyed to Americans from designated recognized terrorist groups is not allowed on the site. Thus, it has been deleted and the user is banned.

We strongly disallow messages to be conveyed to the site from such groups. The writer has been banned and any user who does it in the future will be banned.

mcjoan

I'm sure you'll put up a diary real soon about how it's a Zionist plot. Was she another one of your recruitees?

---

by: MBNYC @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 13:59:26 PM CDT

I have a problem with this (7.25 / 8)

A huge problem.

While the diarist may have come to this story with a biased point of view, she's reporting her observations. If an international journalist scored an interview with Osama Bin Laden, he/she would be lauded as a great journalist. (Or at least should be) I'm not sure why this writer should be treated any differently. This is not censorship of opinions. Its worse. Its way worse. Its disgusting. mcjoan should know better.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

---

by: Kane in CA @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 14:28:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I expect it is because (8.33 / 3)

she was not a journalist, was not asking questions, and was not challenging him in any way.  Instead, she was merely giving him a soapbox from which to speak.  That is certainly a distinction with a difference.

---

by: dhonig @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 14:33:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not quite (11.00 / 1)

The text that followed didn't bear any hallmarks of journalism, such as critical distance or anything like it; it was pure 'this is what he's saying, and I want you to hear and essentially agree with it'. That organization is one which expressly targets civilians, by the way, and it is seen by this country as terrorist. That raises legal issues, ethical concerns aside, and I do not believe it belongs on a Progressive blog.

---

by: MBNYC @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 15:32:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I didn't see the deleted text (6.50 / 2)

I'm not sure if thats what you're referring to as "the text that followed".

but this

After some time, I asked Moussa if he had a message to the people of America. He thanked me for the opportunity and began to speak:

sure looks like a question.

Good journalism? Probably not. Critically distant? Probably not. I'd go so far as to believe that some of the story may even be fabricated (solely based on my own experiences in the region). Nonetheless, we have virtually no standards for professional journalists (Fox News?). It was a first hand account. She deserves to be heard, whether you agree with her or not.


to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

---

by: Kane in CA @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 16:08:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What followed after (6.00 / 3)

that was his message; it wasn't a question.

As far as his actual opinions are concerned, as noted, the man belongs to a terrorist organization that targets civilians. That's not hyperbole, it's the simple plain truth.

And that doesn't belong on a Progressive blog. They made absolutely the right choice with this. This moral relativism business - 'everyone's voice should be heard' - does not apply when the person in question is someone who blows up civilians. I fail to see what's Progressive about that; I find it appalling.

---

by: MBNYC @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 17:10:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

mcjoan should be ashamed of herself n/t (5.00 / 5)

I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

---

by: fairleft @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:27:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Just put up a diary on Anna's banning. (0.00 / 0)

It might explain more.



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

---

by: shergald @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 18:46:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Please see my comment downthread. n/t (0.00 / 0)

"Truth has no time of its own. Its hour is now -- always, and indeed then most truly when it seems most unsuitable to actual circumstances."

---

by: roysol @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 14:53:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

so dKos readers (6.40 / 5)

are not to be allowed to hear what Palestinians have to say because Zionists say they can't?

And mcjoan comes right out and says "Information being conveyed to Americans . . . is not allowed on the site."  We don't get to hear what "terrorists" have to say, because they're "terrorists" . . . according to somebody who knows what we're supposed to know . . .

Wow.  Just Wow.

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

---

by: Deward Hastings @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 19:32:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

and this is what (7.80 / 5)

you're not supposed to read, according to mcjoan (and other bigots).  And it's pretty obvious why . . . it sounds too much like the truth.  And we already know who doesn't want you to know the truth . . .

"I am from the Palestinian armed resistance to the Occupation. I am opposed to violence against any civilians, whether they are Palestinian or Israeli, Muslim or Jewish. I hate fighting, but when soldiers invade our homes, our land, and our lives, it is our duty to resist them, to resist the theft of our water, our self determination, and our dignity. We are human just like you. We want to live, to have families, a normal life. But if we must fight to our death to protect what is ours, our land, the future of our children, we are ready to do so.

I invite you to look at maps and statistics of this conflict over time. I lament the killing of innocent people on both sides, but the tremendous disproportion of land and water rights, civil liberties, and civilian casualties on the two sides is undeniable. The international community calls us terrorists, but we would welcome any objective international presence to bear witness to what is happening here and come to their own conclusions. Is beating unarmed children, medical workers, and even internationals not terror? Is taking advantage of lulls in violence -- when the press isn't watching -- to accelerate expansion of settlements in land and water rich areas not a crime?

Palestinians have coexisted harmoniously with Jews in the past, and we are ready to do so again. After all, Jews are our brothers and sisters, people of faith just like us. As our party Fatah has said many times before, we are ready to live in peace with Israel if there can be a just and viable resolution to the issues of borders, distribution of water, settlements, Jerusalem, and the refugees. These are our conditions, and they are also our rights."

Scary, eh?  Too much like the truth, eh?  FAR to much for the little minds at dKos . . . they must be "protected" . . .

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

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by: Deward Hastings @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 19:58:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

... (11.00 / 1)

I'm just going to assume you're not aware that the organization in question targets civilians and is defined by the U.S. government as a terrorist organization. Contrary to what you say, that's not just a rhetorical, but a legal distinction.

Too funny that you see things as you do.

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by: MBNYC @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 22:24:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

even the US government (6.00 / 2)

gets it wrong sometimes.  Like bombing Iraq for the WMD that were actually in Israel.

Oops.  Missed.  Wrong country destroyed.

And about all those civilians killed in Lebanon (not to mention almost every day in Palestine) . . . terrorism?  I think so . . .


"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

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by: Deward Hastings @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 23:36:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree with Deward!! (4.00 / 3)

"so dKos readers are not to be allowed to hear what Palestinians have to say because Zionists say they can't?"

I agree, Deward, this is a complete outrage. Of course, we come at this from different directions. I come to this opinion because of the incredibly time-consuming burden it puts on me, as Chief Elder of Zion, to read every single word posted on DailyKos, to ensure that any Palestinian messages are deleted before impressionable readers can see them.  Believe me, it's a bitch. Not only do I work full-time in my store, but I have to do this. Oh, it was fine when there were only 4000 or so registered users at DailyKos. Now, with more than 110,000 registered users (at least 6,000 of which are actually Shergald), it really is a time-suck. I'm exhausted.

Now, I can only speculate how you come to this opinion, that Zionists are censoring every word posted on DailyKos to suppress any Palestinian voices. It could come from your rabid hatred of all Israelis, combined with your equally rabid hatred for anyone that dares to think that Jews have a right to self-determination in their own state, just like "normal people." Or maybe it just comes from ignorance. Like I said, I can only guess.


In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

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by: Paul in San Francisco @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 22:18:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And you know (4.00 / 4)

I could agree with the bulk of your comment, if it weren't for the sheer Jerry Falwellesq bigotry of that first sentence - that Zionists are controlling what gets published at Kos.

you are a shameless and disgusting bigot, and you are a disgrace to the Left.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

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by: Paul in San Francisco @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 23:16:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

There is no such rule on DKos. (0.00 / 0)

McJoan just made it up. I just put up a diary in which a Time Magazine reporter interviewed Rantisi, the Hamas bomber recruiter. I put up that interview a few times in posts and perhaps in a diary, but I was never cited for it.

I think it is a red herring thrown out there to justify Anna's banning.



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

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by: shergald @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 18:48:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

As I wrote at DKos, I part company with my friends (10.25 / 4)

on this one. I have no problem with quoting from a terrorist. Indeed, if a Hamas representative were to join DKos and truly engage with the members -- in other words, not simply post hit-and-run diaries -- I would welcome the opportunity for dialogue.

"Democracy signifies rule of the majority, but not less the protection of minorities." Karl Kautsky

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by: one of the people @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 20:05:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hamas and Israel are terrorist entities (6.00 / 1)

in some of what they do. They are responsible and even admirable in other aspects. Blanket categorization won't help any real sort of peace process.

But I'm glad you didn't go on to the blanket dismissal of dialogue with 'terrorist' entities/organizations.

I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

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by: fairleft @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:24:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

When you say part with your friends... (0.00 / 0)

do you mean that they wrote Hunter or Kos administration and demanded that Anna be banned? Well, I wouldn't doubt it. Then McJoan banned her. Someone recently used the term, Zionist occupied Kos or something like that. Could this notion be true? As I recall, Hunter only replied to right wing Zionist commenters the day he banned Desert Peace (Steve Amsel).



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

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by: shergald @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 18:51:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't have a problem with those (0.00 / 0)

zionist that are really committed to two states, but Kos doesn't seem to even be run in their interest.  I do recognize a phenomenon of zionist who claim to be for two states but put so many preconditions on Palestinians that it becomes impossible to actually have two states.  These people will claim to be for two states but will be critical of Jimmy Carter.  Most of the reactionary stuff that happens there centers on 3 particular mods,  Plutonium Page, Dhinmi and now Hunter.  Plutonium Page and Dhinmi specialize in hunting down people who may not like Hillary, or her philosophy.  Hunter used to be kind of sane.

Dameocrat Blog

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by: Dameocrat @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 19:50:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

A shameful act (5.00 / 5)

that aligns DKos with Little Green Footballs.

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by: Miss Mannered @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 21:37:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Shergald is not a troll, (9.29 / 7)

at least not by MLW guidelines.(and neither is Stu)

He is a member in good standing, who follows the rules, such as they are, and has every right to post here.

I am speaking to our "guests", those dkos regulars who feel compelled to come here and challenge Shergald. Interestingly, that creates more notice and harshness than when you don't come around.

Please use your "1" rating, it's perfectly serviceable. I'm confident you won't succeed in getting his comments hidden, I uprated several on this thread to assure that they won't.

Nobody will get banned for "ratings abuse", but you can expect to get called on it. You are all welcome here too, and personally, I lean more towards your side on this issue, but keep in mind that MLW is committed to open debate.

Peace!

"Truth has no time of its own. Its hour is now -- always, and indeed then most truly when it seems most unsuitable to actual circumstances."

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by: roysol @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 14:50:27 PM CDT

Thanks for supporting free speech. (6.00 / 1)

Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

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by: shergald @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 18:53:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You know (3.50 / 2)

the more I read from each side on the I/P situation, the less I find myself caring about it.

The sideshow made up of the back and forth between zealots on either side of this issue,  IMO anyway, doesn't do much to engender nonpartisan interest, much less hope for a solution.

And before the complaints come raining down about how heartless this stance is, there are places all over the world that involve as much and more human suffering and oppression that don't generate a whole lot of feeling (and/or action), let alone the kind of supernova vitriol this tired circus inspires.

Much like the real players in the I/P drama, the vaudevillian imitators on the internets will one day need to recognize the value of a short memory and an even shorter tongue if they are truly interested in peace.


(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 22:08:52 PM CDT

heh (8.50 / 2)

you're just trying to lay a Jake's Guilt trip on us.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

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by: Paul in San Francisco @ Tue May 15, 2007 at 22:19:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thats why there Here- Thats How They Win n/t (6.00 / 1)

"Money?"

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by: Beach @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 00:24:57 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The 'drama' was created by (5.75 / 4)

the Israel/Likud side of the issue. And it's had its desired effect on you.

I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

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by: fairleft @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:20:24 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Spoken (7.67 / 3)

like a true zealot. 

Maybe people should hand out mirrors in these threads?

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!

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by: Jake's Guilt @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 12:41:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry, but it's obvious to any (7.25 / 4)

disinterested observer what is going on. Every dkos I/P diary that is noticed by the troll mob is deliberately disrupted by that mob's off-topic comments and ad hominem insults.

Below (http://www.dailykos....) is a representative example, from umkahlil's final diary (before she was banned). Umkahlil posts her tip jar, and then an an 81 (!) comment off-topic thread founded in lies and mischaracterization is started by another American and then rabidly 'supported' by dfb1968 and Pumpkinlove and other usual suspects. Here are the first few entries:

[1] Tip Jar (26+ / 0-)

Shukran.  Thank you for reading, and I admonish all, as the veteran school teacher I am, to focus on the diary!
by umkahlil on Sun May 13, 2007 at 04:05:04 AM PDT

[2] One of the glories of Daily Kos (4+ / 0-)

is that we are free to ask questions and make comments sparked by and relating to a diary, even if the diarist would prefer a narrow focus on just the point she wants made.
Accordingly, I again ask you:

o Do you believe that we live in "Zionist occupied America"?
o What do you mean by the phrase?
o If you no longer believe it, how and why did you change your mind?

I also would appreciate a substantive response to another point I've tried to raise before. Does it matter to you that by demonizing Israel and making demands that entail the destruction of Israel you:

o put off the achievement of a free and independent Palestinian state alongside Israel and

o make enemies of progressive friends of Israel who otherwise would ally with you in working to achieve a genuine two-state end-of-conflict peace settlement?
Al Gore should be president.

by another American on Sun May 13, 2007 at 04:59:39 AM PDT

[3] Former Senator Abourezk (8+ / 0-)

in an excerpt from a letter to Jeff Blankfort that was forwarded to me by e:mail:

I can tell you from personal experience that, at least in the Congress, the support Israel has in that body is based completely on political fear--fear of defeat by anyone who does not do what Israel wants done. I can also tell you that very few members of Congress--at least when I served there--have any affection for Israel or for its Lobby. What they have is contempt, but it is silenced by fear of being found out exactly how they feel. I've heard too many cloakroom conversations in which members of the Senate will voice their bitter feelings about how they're pushed around by the Lobby to think otherwise. In private one hears the dislike of Israel and the tactics of the Lobby, but not one of them is willing to risk the Lobby's animosity by making their feelings public.

by umkahlil on Sun May 13, 2007 at 05:29:04 AM PDT

[4] Not the least bit responsive. nt (1+ / 0-)

by another American on Sun May 13, 2007 at 05:35:35 AM PDT
[5] Oh, I think it was very responsive (1+ / 0-)

It indicates that the diarist believes it is "Zionist Occupied America".  Which puts the diarist in good company, with David Duke, maybe Pat Buchanan, and all those other good Progressive Democrats.

by dfb1968 on Sun May 13, 2007 at 05:37:11 AM PDT

[6] May I suggest we stop with the name calling
Can we at least make an attempt to disagree with ideas without condemning the person?

by livosh1 on Sun May 13, 2007 at 06:02:56 AM PDT

livosh1's civilized request, of course, was not honored.

I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

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by: fairleft @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 17:39:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Read the diaries, which are usually good. (6.00 / 1)

The comments are selectively interesting, but one has to get good as surfing them to appreciate real contributions to discussion. Or just avoid them altogether and judge the diary on its own merits. That's what I do, in any case.



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

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by: shergald @ Wed May 16, 2007 at 18:55:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]