Olbermann Kicks Democratic Ass

I am so tired of Democrats without a Back Bone. (9.80 / 10)

"Israel's continued control and colonization of Palestinian land have been the primary obstacles to a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Land."

- Jimmy Carter

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by: srliberal @ Thu May 24, 2007 at 21:47:04 PM CDT

srliberal... (8.33 / 3)

I hope you don't mind my title change for the front page promotion...

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Thu May 24, 2007 at 23:01:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It is a great honor (9.00 / 2)

and Thanks Maryscott!!!

"Israel's continued control and colonization of Palestinian land have been the primary obstacles to a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Land."

- Jimmy Carter

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by: srliberal @ Thu May 24, 2007 at 23:22:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

80 Democrats voted to cave (8.50 / 2)

This was a massive capitulation.

We can't work through the Democratic nor Republican parties.  They are closed to the voice of the people.

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by: Alias Mister Smith @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 00:27:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

It was a show vote (6.00 / 2)

Many of those voting no did so for just for show.  Everyone knew that the vote that really mattered was the one taken by Louise Slaughter and her group as to whether the bill would be given a vote at all.  As she said yesterday.

This other thing was just window dressing.  PR for the presidential candidates.

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by: underpantsgnm @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 08:51:09 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Closed to the voice of the people (10.50 / 2)

I don't think so.  Temporarily in the hands of those who don't listen to the people.  Yep.

Start thinking 2008 and primary challenges.  To win a primary challenge, aim to convince at least 75,000 voters in a Congressional District that the Democratic Party needs some different representatives or different challengers.  To win the general election, aim to convince at least 175,000 voters that the challenging Democrat should be the one to represent them.

We might not be able to work through the party structures, but we can certainly put up challengers that can win.  That is, if we are accurately hearing the voice of the people.  And if we can't win in that Congressional District, asserting that we are hearing "the voice of the people" is an illusion.

So much of the whining over the Vichy Dems seems to be the unwillingness to do in 2008 what needs to be done -- a progressive Democratic landslide.

And if that is not possible, we are not the voice of the people, we are voices crying in the wilderness.

Want a third party -- 50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts -- Go get 'em

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by: TarheelDem @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 16:33:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry, it's not going to happen (6.00 / 1)

This country is set up to be a two-party system (actually a one party, two-wing system) and it requires MASSIVE amounts of money to make yourself electable.  The media will crucify anybody to the left.

I've had it with all this talk of reforming the Democratic Party.  Far too many Democrats deserted the field of battle.  The vote was 80-14 in the Senate, for God's sake.

I'd rather put all that effort into building another political party that can push one of the major parties into reforming itself.

You cannot "fight from the inside".  You become part of the system on the inside, and you don't change the system, it changes you.

That much I know.

You fight from the outside, the way Dr. King did, the way Gandhi did, the way the Progressive Party did.  The Progressive Party never won an election, but the popularity of their demands forced the ruling parties into effecting reforms that they had resisted for two generations.

Fuck the Democratic Party.  I'm done with them.  There are individuals within it who are progressive, like Senator Feingold, but the party overall is a lost cause.

Or are you telling me, Tarheel, that you are planning on mounting primary challenges to every senator who fucked us over on the Iraq vote?  Good luck with unseating 15-20 incumbent senators in 2008, again in 2010, and again in 2012.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

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by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 17:10:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fighting from the Outside (11.00 / 2)

Just what exactly does fighting from the outside mean when Hispanics can fill the streets defending their rights and those who oppose the war in Iraq can only muster 100,000 in DC.  What exactly are the real risks that people are calculating about their participation.

I'm not telling you anything about plans but about realities.  You can't claim to be the "voice of the people" and say that the people can't kick out the representatives that are not listening to them.

So what you are saying is that, for those districts in which the House and Senate members voted to give W a blank check, there are not 200,000 voters who would kick that Congressman out of office and elect someone else.  So, in that district, the current Congressman is representing the voice of the people?  It's only that the people there want to give W a blank check?

For the Senate, you have to ask which of the Senators are up for re-election in 2008.  The problem with the Senate is that we are more likely to get progressive Democrats from currently Republican seats, strange as that might sound.  Unless you have a progressive Democrat who could oust Mary Landrieu and go on to win the general election in Louisiana, for example.

I am saying that it is arrogance to say that you are the "voice of the people" when you don't have the guts to test that assertion in an election.

The party changes when the leadership changes.  The leadership changes when the members and the old leadership are voted out of office.  Which is how the Republican Party went from a party dominated by Dwight Eisenhower, Jacob Javitts and Nelson Rockefeller to one dominated by Mitch McConnell and Trent Lott.  The conservative wing went out an won one primary at a time.  And they found spokesmen on the outside who they brought inside.  Which is how Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson became the media darlings of the religious right.  Who changes the members and the leadership are the people who vote.

"The voters are ignoramuses" position is directly in contradiction to the "voice of the people" position.

The only way that working from the outside actually succeeds in changing things is when that effort results in a vote that expresses the will of the people for that change.  Doctor King's change was institutionalized by the election of LBJ and liberal Democrats, some in the South.  Gandhi's change was institutionalized by the conduct of elections at Indian independence.  The Velvet Revolution was institutionalized by the election of Vaclav Havel.  All those demonstrations and civil disobedience was for changing the minds of the people about the issues in question, of shifting the will of the people.

So which is it?  The people want the US out of Iraq and the politicians are not delivering on this decision of the people.  Or the politicians are representing people who do not yet want the US out of Iraq and it is a matter of convincing them otherwise.

Because when the people decide, no power on earth can stop them.  Ask Erich Honnekker or Nicolas Ceaucescu or Slobodan Milosovich.  When the people decide, their relatives in the police and the army decide to support the people, protect their relatives from the state.

People power trumps money power every time.  When the people realize that they have the power and when they are clear about what they want to have happen.  I believe that we are very close to this point in this country on Iraq, regardless of what the Vichy Democrats did.

The problem with party politics in America is candidates.  Too few of them.  Too much assumption that someone is unbeatable.  The assumption that the media always dictate what happens, that media attacks always end in defeat for candidates.  The problem with party politics in America is the cowardice of those who would seek change.  The declaration of defeat before action.  We have Vichy Democrats because we have defeatist progressives.

Want a third party -- 50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts -- Go get 'em

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by: TarheelDem @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 22:57:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Please don't put words in my mouth (6.00 / 1)

You put the phrase "the voters are ignoramuses" as if I wrote it.

Please don't put words in quotation remarks if I didn't write them.

You seem to be confused in your own argument.

You wrote:

The only way that working from the outside actually succeeds in changing things is when that effort results in a vote that expresses the will of the people for that change.  Doctor King's change was institutionalized by the election of LBJ and liberal Democrats, some in the South.

Exactly--but show me the massive movement to put in progressive candidates.  People who counsel "fighting from the inside" don't want to build that huge "people power" movement.  Kos typifies this attitude by scorning street activists and mass protest.

People voting, when they have candidates who turn around and stab them in the back on the main issue that turned Congress over from the Repubs to the Dems, IS useless.  We have things backwards:  we need a movement that is independent of both parties and can act as pressure on them.  That movement needs its own third party as a vehicle for change.  Historically, this has been the very important role of third parties in the United States, such as the Progressive Party.

Your grasp of history is somewhat shaky.  The civil rights movement which Dr. King helped lead actually cost the Democrats the South for a couple of generations (in case you hadn't noticed).

I found your concluding paragraphs to be extremely naive:

People power trumps money power every time.  When the people realize that they have the power and when they are clear about what they want to have happen.  I believe that we are very close to this point in this country on Iraq, regardless of what the Vichy Democrats did.

You believe this despite all evidence to the contrary.  No, people power does not trump money power every time; people power is defeated by money power 95 times out of 100.  If that's what you believe, you haven't paid attention not only to the history of this country, but to current events.


Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

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by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 23:36:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

History and naivete (11.00 / 1)

You put the phrase "the voters are ignoramuses" as if I wrote it.

That was not my intention.  But there is a "the voters are ignoramuses" sense of despair in the progressive movement that paralyzes the networking that needs to be done to create a people-powered movement.  By networking, I mean involving family, friends, co-workers and neighbors--the very thing that a lot of progressives are reluctant to do.

show me the massive movement to put in progressive candidates

There isn't one.  That is my point.  There is coasting with selected insiders like Feingold, depending on them to do the heavy lifting, and there is the half-hearted attempts to get something going in the streets.  There is no massive movement to put in progressive candidates - mainly because it will take a lot of work and a lot of smarts not to be co-opted.

Your grasp of history is somewhat shaky.  The civil rights movement which Dr. King helped lead actually cost the Democrats the South for a couple of generations (in case you hadn't noticed).

I live in North Carolina.  I grew up in South Carolina.  My grasp of history is personal.  And the South has indeed changed, depite the attempts of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and Jesse Helms and others to put the gains by the civil rights movement back in the box.  That is what I mean by institutionalization. My manager is black and competent and has advanced in a company operating in North Carolina.  My neighborhood is diverse and working together to deal with local problems like crime and sprawl and economic opportunity.  Politics in my county are not beset with the sort of exclusionary shenanigans that went on in Florida, Georgia, and the great Southern state of Ohio.  People are not going back.  Racists are in fact the minority and defensive and sly.  Throughout the South.

What cost Democrats the South for a generation was the failure of the national party to try to put together a progressive Democratic movement.  Southerners voted for the real Republicans instead of the calculating me-too Democrats.  Nonetheless, at the state and local level, Democrats are still in charge in many Southern states - NC and TN being the most notable. 

And what cost the Democrats in the 1970s and early 1980s was the very successful economy that desegregation permitted to happen.  Transplants from other states moved into the South to take the expanding jobs.  These folks tended to be Midwestern Republicans, Northeastern Republicans, in part because they were brought up in small town Republican areas.  And when they got to suburban Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Richmond, Jackson, Birmingham, Charleston, Greenville, and Columbia, they voted Republican out of habit, thinking the Jesse Helms and Newt Gingrich were the same types of Republicans that they grew up with.  And it is these folks who are breaking with the Republican Party and giving victories to people like Jim Webb.  Californians haven't a clue of the complexity of politics in the South these days.

No, people power does not trump money power every time; people power is defeated by money power 95 times out of 100.

I should have been more precise.  People power trumps money power every time the people use their power.  Through laziness or divisiveness, 95% of the time people don't use the power that they have.

If I am naive, not amount of protesting in the streets is going to change anything.  Protesting in the streets shows the power and determination of the people.  It is a symbolic display.  Having a weak symbolic display is worse than having none at all.  And the communication blackout of dissent is so great in the US that it will take 10 million people in Washington DC on a single day to exercise a symbolic power that will break through the blackout.  I'm not discouraging the effort, just pointing out that it will take as much hard work as getting progressive candidates elected.

Whichever way, the job is the same:  Persuading large numbers of complacent or frightened people to use the power that they currently do have to ensure that they continue to have it in the future.

Too much of what I see in the Kos-anti-Kos discussions is phoney battles intended to avoid that hard work.  Don't take this personally; you are not the target.  Just look at some of the discussions.

Want a third party -- 50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts -- Go get 'em

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by: TarheelDem @ Sat May 26, 2007 at 09:51:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You hit the Nail on the Head. (6.00 / 1)

That is why I said I would not support any Dem who voted for this Bill and Support Primary Challenges.

"Israel's continued control and colonization of Palestinian land have been the primary obstacles to a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Land."

- Jimmy Carter

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by: srliberal @ Sat May 26, 2007 at 00:35:56 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

We are standing at a defining moment for the netroots (9.00 / 4)

Either major heads roll because of this betrayal or they will never take us seriously. They betrayed us on every major issue that got them elected.

Fire Reid and Pelosi NOW! We must have our pound of flesh. They are literally taking ours.

Our credibilty and self respect are completely on the line now. We either strike back hard or we are a joke to them and we are reduced to impotent whining.

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by: Yetimonk @ Thu May 24, 2007 at 23:28:21 PM CDT

speechless (9.00 / 4)

fucking A KO!

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by: Diane W @ Thu May 24, 2007 at 23:30:52 PM CDT

How did Senator James Webb of Virginia vote? (9.00 / 3)

I said he wasn't a true progressive a couple of days ago and got dipped in a vat of acid for it.

I based my statement at that time partly on Webb's "no" vote against Senator Feingold's bill on 16 May 2007.  Feingold's bill would have provided for the redeployment of troops out of Iraq by October 1, completing withdrawal and cutting funds for the war by March 21, 2008.

In other words, Webb voted against cutting off funds with a timetable.  In doing so, he parroted Bush's nonsensical rhetoric about "abandoning" the troops in the field.

Has Senator Webb redeemed himself by voting "no" on this compromise bill that strips out the much-needed timetable for withdrawal?

Senators Clinton, Obama, Biden, and Dodd all voted for Feingold's bill on 16 May 2007 (actually on amendment), while the "Kos progressives" Senators Tester of Montana and Webb of Virginia voted NO.

This time around, 24 May 2007, Clinton, Obama, and Dodd voted NO on this bill (which was the correct thing to do, given that it was a Vichy compromise), Biden voted YES, and the great "Kos progressives" Webb and Tester voted...

Of course they voted "YES".  Both of them.  What did you expect?

The Senate roll call vote on this measure can be found here:  http://www.senate.go...

Only 14 "Nays" in the Senate:

NAYs ---14
Boxer (D-CA)
Burr (R-NC)
Clinton (D-NY)
Coburn (R-OK)
Dodd (D-CT)
Enzi (R-WY)
Feingold (D-WI)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Obama (D-IL)
Sanders (I-VT)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
Wyden (D-OR)

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by: Alias Mister Smith @ Thu May 24, 2007 at 23:39:38 PM CDT

Fuck Webb (9.67 / 3)

I had it out with one of his staffers online and handed him his ass.

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by: Yetimonk @ Thu May 24, 2007 at 23:53:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Good for you (9.33 / 3)

But the Webb worshippers will still tell you that, overall, he's a PROGRESSIVE and you can't judge him by this one little vote.

Pure and utter bullshit. If there's one guy who had political cover for a "no" vote on this bullshit bill, it was Webb, former Marine, former Republican, former Reagan Defense Secretary.

I don't want to hear his reasons.  If Webb's this walking-tall, straight-talking John Wayne hero, let him prove it.

His May 16th and May 24th votes show that the great hero has feet of clay.

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by: Alias Mister Smith @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 00:01:54 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

$10 to webb & tester. fucking wasted. beer (9.20 / 5)

would have been a better investment.

in all honesty, I never did look to close at either of their records

- shit, a guy who was in fucking RayGun's 'government' ...??

cuz I was HOPING that the usual

snivelling, whining, condescending

conventional wisdom

'any Dem is better than a fascist'

I was HOPING that we'd do o.k.

I've said a lot of fucked up things on the net, but

I honestly do NOT think I ever passed along that piece of shit CW of 'any dem...'

I still don't feel better.

rmm


Grassroots Organizing By The Community, For The Community, NOT for the "Leaders" http://www.liemail.com/BambooGrassroots.html

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by: rmdBosSea @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 07:11:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I gave a lot of money (more than I could afford) in 2004 (9.75 / 4)

To Democratic candidates because I was DESPERATE to get rid of GOP rule.

I didn't make that mistake in 2006.  I gave all my money to a local congressional candidate who successfully unseated the odious, corrupt Richard Pombo--so for once, I picked a winner and someone who (thus far) has upheld my ideals in Congress.

I just got my Democratic National Committee survey in the mail yesterday.  You see, the Democrats want my opinion.

I attached a note to the survey and returned it in a 10"x12" envelope.  This is the note:

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss
Won't get fooled again

I'm quoting The Who, not this murderous dunce:

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by: Alias Mister Smith @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 07:56:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

While Obama and Clinton voted "no", they (9.00 / 6)

waited until the measure passed before casting their votes. Great show of leadership from both of them. Not.

Time to throw out my lifelong Democratic affiliation and re-register as an Independent. I can not, in good conscience, be affiliated with such a detestable pack of idiotic self-serving cowards any longer.

For those Dems who did the right thing today:  Sorry folks, it wasn't enough. Today your "Yea"-voting colleagues irreparably damaged the Democratic Party.

Between the secret trade deals, the ethics betrayal and this latest betrayal...  Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me. I've had it being a part of a party bound and determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Over and over and over and over...

The Democratic Party -- The "We Can't" Party.

"As you get older, you get less willing to buy the latest version of reality." Leonard Cohen

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by: mentaldebris @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 00:11:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

This was (10.00 / 2)

a rape.

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by: Yetimonk @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 00:17:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

A picture is worth 1000 words and other cliches (9.67 / 3)

I opposed the Iraq invasion BEFORE it happened.

I want our troops out on a definite timetable.

Either our government is the enemy of the people, or I am a traitor.

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by: Alias Mister Smith @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 02:45:43 AM CDT

Now that.... (6.00 / 1)

was one amazing piece of commentary.  Mr. Olbermann seems as outraged and dumbfounded as we are.  It just doesn't make any sense.

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by: Buckeye BattleCry @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 07:44:14 AM CDT

Sure it makes sense (8.33 / 3)

If you divest yourself of the notion that the elected government is really running things, and instead realize that "the government" that really runs things remains the same no matter the outcome of an election.

You think the ruling class of the US would let us commoners vote if it actually changed anything?

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by: Alias Mister Smith @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 07:58:38 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's true, I was naive (6.00 / 1)

I really thought that winning in November meant that somebody would actually fucking do something about Iraq.

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by: Buckeye BattleCry @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 08:52:05 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wu Shu: The Art of Democrats v. Republicans (8.00 / 2)

Wu Shu was originally a Chinese form of the martial arts, but has now been reduced to a harmless exhibition, in which the participants throw kicks and punches that look like they're going to do some damage, but never actually connect.

Kind of like the Democrats v. Republicans.  Actually, JUST like them.

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by: Alias Mister Smith @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 08:23:43 AM CDT

I watched this when it aired. (9.00 / 1)

Breathtaking. One of the best he's done and I'm a huge fan. When he said that this was their "Neville Chamberlain moment" I went slack jawed. My husband and I just stared at each, like, oh my god, he said it, on a national broadcast! Holy fucking christ. Them's balls. I LOVE him. Keith Olbermann that is. I love my husband too, but that's different.

And someone, with whom I used to collaborate, has reminded of my own term, "political wushu." This is most definitely a prime example of that. Perhaps I should do a follow-up. Here's the original Political Wushu diary.

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

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by: Curmudgette @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 08:52:40 AM CDT

You two are in sync. (0.00 / 0)

You and Alias Mister Smith, that is. Look above you...

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 10:03:13 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I saw it (10.00 / 2)

and I referenced it, guardedly, because I am trying to observe my DNR in some form or fashion. It's just made more difficult when I am invoked by said person. But, as I said, my term (and yes, I coined the phrase, just as sure as skippy coined blogtopia) was invoked by "someone with whom I used to collaborate." Not that I mind its being invoked. I would be thrilled if the term became viral, because it sums the situation up so incredibly well. My husband is a serious martial artist, so I've been hearing him bitch about "wushu" forever and a day. And when I watch the theatrics of Biden, in particular, that's what I think of, wushu; spectacle without utility.

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

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by: Curmudgette @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 10:14:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Curmudgette, what do you say? (0.00 / 0)

  How about crossposting Part I, and perhaps giving Part II a shot, here on MLW's front page? Maybe we can turn that concept viral, all by ourselves?

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 15:48:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm working on it, actually. (8.50 / 2)

I've just been busy with the fam. They come first and they have this annoying habit of wanting to eat sometimes. Can you believe that? Selfish. SELFISH!!!

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

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by: Curmudgette @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 18:13:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I would have given attribution and credit where it's due (9.50 / 2)

If I didn't think it would provoke any further problems. 

Indeed, Curmudgette originated the idea of "political wushu" and explained it to me a long time ago.  It's a BRILLIANT label and I, too, wish it would become "viral".  Far better than the tired term of "political kabuki theatre" because wushu is one of those terms that jumps out at you and grabs your attention.

I agree, this is the moment for Part II of the Political Wu Shu diary--and something tells me that (alas) there's going to be plenty of opportunities for sequels.


Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

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by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 11:40:19 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Vichy Democrats (7.50 / 2)

"Vichy Democrats."  Perfect.

You can't compare the Republicans to the Nazis, but you sure can compare the Democrats to collaborators, weasels, opportunists, and scum.

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by: emjay1954 @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 14:44:24 PM CDT

I DO feel like I'm in an occupied country (9.00 / 1)

This doesn't feel like my home any more.  It hasn't for quite a few years now.

Vichy Democrats is a perfect description.  To think I gave them my money, my time, and my trust.

Never again.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

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by: The BloggingCurmudgeon @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 17:11:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Compare the Republicans to the Nazis? (11.00 / 1)

I can and I do.

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

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by: Curmudgette @ Fri May 25, 2007 at 18:14:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]