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KOS and the CIA

by: Stu Piddy

Fri May 25, 2007 at 09:47:34 AM PDT






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Markos Moulitsas: Man of Mystery

Markos Moulitsas spent 6 months in 2001 interviewing with the CIA. He was accepted by the CIA, went through the entire interview process (talking to dozens of people including “psychologists and people in the leadership” ) and given his first assignment to work in clandestine services. His assignment, he says was to act as a “spy” in Washington D.C. for the CIA. He was told by the CIA that this particular assignment in Washington D.C. would last for at least 6 years before he would be given the overseas assignment he preferred. Moulitsas spoke to the CIA about his “blog”.

Moulitsas had been an active blogger at the time of his 6 month CIA interview process with My DD. He discussed his blogging with the CIA and the viewpoints he expressed in posts in what he referred to as “his blog”. He said he found the CIA receptive, and in general, in agreement with his views.

Moulitsas started Daily Kos on May 26th, 2002.

Mouitsas believes that the CIA is a “liberal” organization. An organization made of up liberals who are opposed George W. Bush

Moulitsas commenting on the CIA says, ”Of course they have their dirty ops and this and that right? ...But as an institution itself the CIA is actually interested in a stable world, that’s what they are interested in… and stable worlds aren’t created by destabilizing regimes and by,...by starting wars... they (The CIA) have done so by other methods…. assassinating labor leaders…..no, I’m kidding….....but that was really surprising to me”…(that the CIA was liberal) and of course I think a lot of conservatives would take that as evidence that the CIA was out to undermine Bush because they (the CIA) are a bunch of liberals”…Keep in mind that I came to this country in 1980…so a lot has to do with historical hostility to the CIA by the left…but it’s before my time so….I… maybe I’m missing nuances…. but from a modern perspective, obviously things are a little different.

All of the above quotations are Moulitsas's own words quoted from a speech he gave to the Commonwealth Club of California on June 7th 2006. It is available HERE under the title: Crashing the Gate: Netroots, Grassroots and the Rise of People-Powered Politics and his discussion of his association with the CIA begins at 13:08.




Stu Piddy :: KOS and the CIA




Several early contributors to MyDD became prominent in politics on the Internet. Markos Moulitsas Zúniga, founder of the most-visited political blog in the world, Daily Kos, began commenting on MyDD before starting his own blog in May of 2002, and refers to MyDD as his "blogfather.”

Moulitsas decided not to take the assignment to be a spy in Washington. Moulitsas says he did not want to work in Washington D.C. He hated Washington D.C. he says.

Moulitsas says he was between jobs and wondering how he would pay his bills. It was during this time he applied for work at the CIA.

Moulitsas says that “every single person I talked to in the CIA (during the 6 months he was being interviewed) was liberal, every single one”.

Moulitsas says: As an organization, “their hearts in the right place”.

Moulitsas lived in El Salvador from age 4 to age 8 or 9. He is 35 years old. He has lived in the United States for about 30 years and El Salvador as a small child for 4 or 5 years.

From Democracy Now we read how the U.S. and the CIA may be setting up El Salvador type Death squads in Iraq here and here

ALLAN NAIRN: In El Salvador and not just Salvador, but about three dozen other countries, the U.S. government, in an integrated effort involving the C.I.A., the Pentagon, and the State Department, backed the creation of military units that targeted civilian activists. In Salvador, I interviewed many of the officers involved in running these squads. For example, General “Chele” Medrano, who was on the C.I.A. payroll, described how they picked their targets. He said, they targeted people who speak, and these are his words: “…against yankee imperialism, against the oligarchy, against military men. These people are traitors to the country. What can the troops do, when they found them this he kill them. …I was given a chance to see the archives of the Salvadoran National Police, the intelligence archives and you could see they have filed marked, union, student, religious….Something on the order of 75,000 Salvadoran civilians were killed by the Salvadoran military, most of them during the 1970's. And the majority of these were targeted by these death squad type forces. So one point is, these were not combatants who were being killed. These were not armed guerrillas. They were sometimes engaged by the Salvadoran military in combat, but the death squad operations, which the Pentagon according to Newsweek is now talking about using for Iraq, these went after civilians.

The war in El Salvador is said to have begun in 1980. But according Nairn around 75.000 had been killed prior to that. Nairn seems to be saying that many more deaths occurred prior to 1980 than were reported.

One of the people Moulitsas has most admired is Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan was central to American involvement in El Salvador.

Noam Chomsky

The Reagan years was a period of devastation and disaster in El Salvador. Maybe seventy-thousand people were slaughtered. The decade began with the assassination of the archbishop. It ended, rather symbolically, with the brutal murder of six leading Latin American intellectuals, Jesuit priests, by an elite battalion, trained, armed, run by the U.S., which had a huge, bloody trail of murders and massacres behind it. The priests are also shown in the picture along with their housekeeper and her daughter, who were also murdered by the same elite battalion, and in between tens of thousands of the usual victims. That was El Salvador. And, as I say, people south of the border know what it is; people north of the border haven’t a clue.

[From common dreams
http://www.commondre...]

What began as an odd remark by Dick Cheney in the vice presidential debate has now become a pattern. Conservatives have repeatedly cited the Central American nation of El Salvador as a model for building democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan…. and drawing a parallel to Iraq, the secretary echoed the comments of Cheney in his Oct. 5 debate with John Edwards. The vice president argued that in 1980s El Salvador "a guerilla insurgency controlled roughly a third of the country, 75,000 people dead. And we held free elections. I was there as an observer on behalf of the Congress. ... And as the terrorists would come in and shoot up polling places as soon as they left, the voters would come back and get in line and would not be denied their right to vote. And today El Salvador is ... a lot better because we held free elections."

This kind of “understanding” of the conflict in Iraq and El Salvador seems to be shared by many.

One of Markos Moulitsas heroes is Archbishop Oscar Romero who was allegedly killed on orders from Roberto D'Aubuisson, one time head of intelligence in El Salvador and the founder of death squads in El Salvador.
D'Aubuisson was funded and supported by CIA. The CIA was fully aware of his activities and described him as a disturbed personality in their own evaluations. The CIA continued to work with him however.

From Democracy Now

ALLAN NAIRN: Archbishop Romero was killed as part of the -- according to later investigations, he was killed by an offshoot of the operation of Roberto D’Aubuisson who ran the ARENA party, which was one of the death squad operations or one of the smaller one, actually. The larger came from the regular Salvadoran armed forces and police. He also had U.S. backing. In fact, D’Aubuisson launched his career as a major figure in Salvador by going on TV and making a speech. He had a video role as he spoke with an illustrated death list of union people and religious figures and others who he said should be killed as traitors to the country. And the data for the list were supplied to him by American intelligence, again according to the officers there I interviewed.

Markos Moulitsas says in his speech before the Commonwealth Club, “I have never had a problem with the CIA which is why I’d have no problem working for them.”

In an interview with Brian Lamb, Moulitsas says he was born in Chicago and the family moved to El Salvador and stayed there for “about 5 years”. The family returned to the U.S. in 1980. So it seems he moved from “Chicago” in or around 1975 when he would have been 4 years old and stayed in El Salvador until he was 9 years old when he returned to “Chicago”.

Moulitsas says “I was raised in El Salvador and lived there until civil war forced our family back to the states in 1980.”

Moulitsas often speaks of himself as a “war refugee” and as a person who “came to this country (U.S.A.) in 1980”.

From Hispanic Magazine

When diehard Democrat Markos Militias Zuniga was just a kid, long before he became the political writer behind Daily Kos (www.dailykos.com), the world’s most popular political blog, he sat in front of his television set in El Salvador and watched armed men take over a local university. They lined up professors and students, and then began shooting them. “I remember the bodies, sort of flopping around as they were being executed. I was seven, I think,” remembers Moulitsas, who was born in Chicago, but moved briefly with his parents to El Salvador. It was the now 34-year-old’s first political memory and one that has colored his view of politics long after his parents took him back to Chicago to escape the civil war in the country of his mother’s birth. “I learned very early on,” he says via phone, “that politics wasn’t just a game.”

Markos in response to an attack from advertisers upset over his comments about having no sympathy for U.S. contractors who were killed in Iraq says:

"I actually grew up in a war zone," he wrote. "I witnessed communist guerillas execute students accused of being government collaborators. I was 8 years old, and I remember stepping over a dead body, warm blood flowing from a fresh wound. ... Dodging bullets while at market. I lived in the midsts of hate the likes of which most of you will never understand (Clinton and Bush hatred is nothing compared to that generated when people kill each other for politics or race or nationality). There's no way I could ever describe the ways this experience colors my worldview.

The implication from the above statement is that he may have been an eyewitness to the communist guerillas killing students. But in Hispanic Magazine and in Guernica the authors of the article states that Markos is saying he saw this murder on TV. He was around 7 or 8 years old. Under most circumstances an 8 year old usually receives an interpretation of such a grisly event with the assistance of an adult.

This nationally televised murder of students and professors by communists is an event for which I can find no record. There are a number of videos on U-tube that show violence in El Salvador. Since it was shown on national TV, presumably it would have been video readily available and historically notated. This event presumably would have occurred perhaps in 1978, 1979 or 1980. At that time Moulitsas would have been around 8 years old having been born in 1971. During and around this time Universities were often heavily guarded by police and army. Police and army often monitored entrance and exits to the Universities. There ARE records of the government invading the university and killing students and professors.

Joan Didion, who traveled to El Salvador during this time and interviewed students and teachers, writes in her book “Salvador”:

“In 1980 Duarte moved troops onto the campus (National University of El Salvador) of 30,000 leaving 50 dead, offices and laboratories smashed.

Didion writes about meeting in secret many teachers and students. Their stories about other students and professors who have been disssapeared and the fear of the few remaining teachers and intellectuals who feared any comments they made might get them arrested.

Markos Moulitsas says his uncle was part of the government at some time as Education Minister. It's not clear when.
Moulitsas says the army “protected my family”. The Washington Monthly describes the situation in which his family is on the right wing side of the war between the government and the communist rebels. Moulitsas does not dispute this characterization of his family. He did dispute other items in the interview.

The family moved back to El Salvador when Moulitsas was four and was on the right-wing side of the Cold War proxy fight there. But as that war's intrusions became unbearable—Moulitsas talks about stepping over dead bodies—the family returned to Chicago, where he grew up, in his own words, “a loudmouthed nerd.”

The Center for Justice and Accountability states that the government committed 95% of the war crimes committed in El Salvador. 3.5% to 5% of the crimes are attributed to the guerilla forces.

An Education Minister in El Salvador is a cabinet level position. The role of an Education Minister during the years of repression by various Juntas and right wing governments was, among other things, to monitor leftist activity among students and professors and to report that to the government, a government that utilized death squads.

Antonio Herrera Rebollo" Minister of Education was killed by rebels in revenge after 37 people were killed by government forces in May 1979. (El Salvador: The Face of Revolution by Robert Armstrong)

The most famous Education Minister in 1980 was Salvador Samayoa. He was a professor of Philosophy. He quit the cabinet and joined the guerilla movement in protest of government injustice.

One of the civilians, Minister of Education Salvador Samayoa, in front of the TV cameras, simultaneously announced his resignation and his enlistment with a guerrilla group.

Moulitsas refers to his experience as a 4 to 8 year old in El Salvador as being central to his current world view.
From the San Francisco Chronicle

The experience actually made him a hawk, he said, because he appreciated how the military "protected my family." After returning to Chicago in the early 1980s and enduring his "humiliating" high school life, he joined the Army at 17. The idea was partly to improve his self-esteem and serve his country and partly to burnish his resume for a career in politics.

Ronald Reagan promoted U.S. involvement in all of Central America during the 1980's.

The United States was supporting the government of El Salvador, said President Ronald Reagan, because it was trying "to halt the infiltration into the Americas, by terrorists and by outside interference, and those who aren't just aiming at El Salvador but, I think, are aiming at the whole of Central and possibly later South America and, I'm sure, eventually North America."

Moulitsas claims he was a Reagan Republican and he worked for the campaign of Henry Hyde who was honored by the Jesse Helms center before his retirement.

While supporters and many longtime aides to Hyde mingled before dinner, David Keene, chairman of the American Conservative Union, described Hyde as "one of the giants, not just of Congress and the Republican Party but of the conservative movement."

The tribute was sponsored by the Jesse Helms Center, a conservative foundation set up as a legacy of the former North Carolina senator. Hyde aides said private tributes also are planned, including a breakfast arranged by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld

While he is most widely known for his role in the Clinton impeachment, Hyde has played a leading role in conservative causes for decades. .

Mouitsas says he voted for George Bush in 1992 but became a "liberal" shortly there after. He, as mentioned above attemped to join the CIA in 2001. His comments about the CIA are from 2006.

From Guernica

Moulitsas’ family was upper-middle-class in a country with virtually no middle class, and so had little sympathy for attempts to overthrow the corrupt ruling party. “I’m still the family communist,” he says. At the time, though, Moulitsas was politically in line with his folks. The family fled back to Chicago when Moulitsas was nine, and he became a fanatical supporter of Ronald Reagan (who backed El Salvador’s government as part of his anti-Communist strategy), even working as a Republican Party precinct captain in high school.
At 17, he enlisted in the Army — partly to pay for college (after leaving El Salvador, Moulitsas’ father worked as a janitor, his mother as a secretary) and partly because he harbored political ambitions and believed military service was a moral prerequisite if one planned on potentially sending others into battle.

Moulitsas, speaking of himself as a teen says, “I was a mess of a human being. I was 5 feet 6 inches tall, weighed just 111 pounds, and didn't have a shred of self-confidence. In high school, I had been the short, skinny, Salvadoran war refugee with the funny accent who looked half his age (still do) and read books in the (then) lily-white Chicago suburb of Schaumburg. A deadly combination.”
From Wikipedia:

The racial makeup of the village (Schaumberg) was 78.78% White, 3.35% African American, 0.10% Native American, 14.19% Asian, 0.06% Pacific Islander, 1.73% from other races, and 1.78% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 5.29% of the population.

Schaumberg is about 45 minutes to one hour from the Downtown Chicago by car and one of the wealthiest suburbs in America. With a median income of $60, 941.00. It is part of Dupage County ranked 19 out of 20 of America wealthiest counties with a median income for the county of over $70.000.00.
Markos says he like so many others could not have gotten the money to pay for college without the army.
From the American Prospect article “The Soldier in Me: 5/4/06
“It was January 1989, during my senior year in high school. My family was sitting at the dinner table when my mother turned to me: "I was talking to some mothers today, and their kids are all applying for colleges. When are you going to get to it?"
I stared back, "I already told you. I'm joining the Army."
Until that moment, my parents apparently thought my plans for military service were a form of youthful rebellion. Or stupidity. But that night my plans suddenly became real -- the start of a months-long battle to convince them that I knew what I was doing and would not be deterred.
Normally, I wouldn't care what my parents thought. I was a teenager. But at 17, I needed parental approval to enlist, a battle I eventually won. Six weeks shy of my 18th birthday, I reported to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, to train as an MLRS/LANCE Operations/Fire Direction Specialist, managing operations and logistics for a missile platoon.”

Moulitsas mentions that it was the army that allowed him to go to college, as his family could not have afforded to send him there.
http://www.dailykos....
I've often talked about my story -- how my Army service served as a springboard for my life. It gave me discipline, pride in myself and my country, strength, and self-confidence. Then, as if that wasn't enough, it allowed me to go to college despite coming from a family who never could've afforded that expense.

He came from a family that could not have afforded the expense of sending him to college, but nevertheless his family living in one of the world’s wealthiest suburbs in the United States had urged him to apply to colleges. All the other mothers of the high school he attended were developing their children’s college plans.
Markos refers to himself as a “war refugee” and being forced back into the United States due to civil war in El Salvador.
The year 1980 in El Salvador was marked by rampant human rights abuses, forced disappearances, arbitrary detention and murder. The Security Forces, working as or with plainclothed "death squads", carried out widespread atrocities against civilians, including opposition political figures, members of labor unions, and people who provided care and education to the public, such as teachers, doctors, rescue workers and priests. Experts estimate that 10,000 to 12,000 unarmed civilians were killed in 1980 alone, including revered Salvadoran Archbishop Romero. CJA filed a separate case against one of the conspirators in the Romero assassination in September 2003.

There is a thread. It seems to be a consistent thread. And it runs consistently throughout this story. It is a conservative thread, not a liberal thread. And that's putting it mildy, very mildly.




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KOS and the CIA | 92 comments
Values (8.75 / 8)
Moulitsas beilieves in individual freedom more than  equality. That's a conservative value.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

is that the cliff notes version? (0.00 / 0)
Just curious.

mbr + dv + woyg

[ Parent ]
Cliff Notes (0.00 / 0)
I don't understand what you mean by cliff notes version..


Stu Piddy....a free range human

[ Parent ]
sorry (0.00 / 0)
I meant, is your first above comment a succint distillation of the diary as a whole? I was trying to be funny. It wasn't funny. Sorry.

mbr + dv + woyg

[ Parent ]
A "Liberal "is now a Reagan Republican (7.33 / 3)
No, it's just a comment. The diary is just information about a person who I said long ago was a conservative person...

It ought to be obvious from the first paragraph what the implications are or might be.

Booman Tribune has two CIA ex officials that regularly comment on his blog. I criticized them both. One is Pat Lang and the other is a man named Larry Johnson who is not opposed to torturing people who have not been charged with crimes as long as it's limited to sleep deprivation. No one criticizes these two ex cia people too much.

You see, what's happened is the meaning of liberal has changed....what's liberal today is a Reagan Republican.

Funny...I wrote a diary about Daily Kos a year ago and all the comments from people criticizing the diary are removed...what's that about?

Most of the people were defending him at that time...insisting I was mistaken in my portrayal of Moulitsas as a shallow conservative.....

There was a violent reaction to criticism of him.

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
Regarding older diaries on MLW and missing comments, (7.67 / 3)
MlW is currently archiving comments from older essays in preperation for a move to a dedicated server.

If you look, everybody's older essays no longer have any comments. Nothing to do with you, Stu.

Cheers!

"Truth has no time of its own. Its hour is now -- always, and indeed then most truly when it seems most unsuitable to actual circumstances."


[ Parent ]
Roysol (7.25 / 8)
So your saying the CIA is not involved? The comments aren't being used by Blackwater in preparation for deployment of their domestic death squads. The strange phone calls with no one on the other end, the knocks on the door...the late night rustling of bushes, the short, fat, bald headed gentleman in sneakers farting in code who always sits the brown couch at the Heavenly Cheese coffee house...that has nothing to do with the removal of the comments..?

How naive of you....

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
In your case (9.00 / 1)
anti-American, anti-liberal, anti-liberty, there may be an exception.

Just keep saying "Four legs good."

Once again, equality.

You may enjoy it.  Count me out.

Patrick Henry did not say, "Give me a world where everyone is exactly equal,  dully the same, or give me death!"

Remember, 'liberal' refers to 'liberty.'  Not to be confused with 'levelers.'

Oops, what's that sound rustling outside your window?  Maybe 99 is there.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Mudscientist (8.50 / 2)
I am most definitely feeling Anti American at this time. I despise America. It's a disgusting nation. I live in it. I am affected by it. I am a part of it. In other words I don't like being an American right now. I am responsible whether I like it or not to some degree for what it is doing. And I believe ALL Americans are.

I am not for equality or for freedom....I am making a point that they all along a continuum ...in a manner of speaking  with freedom being a value more highly regarded among conservatives and equality being a value more highly regarded among liberals....but you once again try to personalize the conversation..

What did you think of the goddamn diary...did you read it?

I am amazed there are maybe two comments on the diary and everything else is about how someone feels about themselves or somebody else....

No mention of Moultisas involvement with the CIA of the contradiction of supporting the CIA...an organization that played a major hand in the assassination of Oscar Romero through funding his assassins, an organization that Destablilzed El Salvador and is currently destabilizing Iran and Iraq.

It isn't always about YOU or ME....

Thats' the biggest problem here at MLW.

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
Mr. Piddy (0.00 / 0)
I am moving my response to your note to the bottom left.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Simplistic. (0.00 / 0)
Equality of results?

Equality of opportunity?

Equality achieved at the expense of the liberty or freedom of others?

Liberty as political liberty?

Liberty as in libertarian or Ayn Randist liberty?

Liberty as anarchy?


IMHO, both liberty and egalitarianism are liberal values.

"Democracy signifies rule of the majority, but not less the protection of minorities." Karl Kautsky


[ Parent ]
Human Values (5.60 / 5)
The Nature of Human Values by Rokeach is, I thought a good book for understanding this.

It's just that along a continuum you will find at one end individual freedom as a "value" assoicated with conservatism and at the other end "equality" associated with Liberalism.

Communism vs Capitalism

Governement enforced equality vs Individualism without Government control.

This fellow Markos is usually on the side of individual freedom...he refers to himself as the only" communist" in his family but he has no idea what communism is...probably...or any idea who he is...

Another aspect of this is...

Kos is a short person...he's got all the problems that can be associated with short people who view themselves as outsiders and weak by virtue of being short. He joins the army to turn himself into a "man" he flirts with the CIA....he talks tough...about winning, realism etc.

He's interested in power. He's compensating for being short among other things.

This guy has got a LOT of problems. He's not in touch with reality, really.

I think he exaggerates and uses distortion through emphasizing small aspects of a larger picture.

That's why so many people early on thought he was a poor boy escaping a brutal dictatorship. He was a wealthy boy who supported a dictatorship who was escaping the wrath of the so called "poor"....it's something like that anyway.

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
Oh Boy (6.80 / 5)
"Kos is a short person...he's got all the problems that can be associated with short people who view themselves as outsiders and weak by virtue of being short. He joins the army to turn himself into a "man" he flirts with the CIA....he talks tough...about winning, realism etc."

Watch out for the short guys, they might be CIA!

You know, sometimes around here I feel like Don Quixote discovering Holland.


(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
The CIA is a Disease (10.00 / 3)
Jake your a person who reads comments...did you read the damn diary...

Moulitsas, speaking of himself as a teen says, “I was a mess of a human being. I was 5 feet 6 inches tall, weighed just 111 pounds, and didn't have a shred of self-confidence. In high school, I had been the short, skinny, Salvadoran war refugee with the funny accent who looked half his age (still do) and read books in the (then) lily-white Chicago suburb of Schaumburg. A deadly combination.”

I think I am entitled to simply paraphrase what he himself said....here he expresses a sensitivity to being short and how the army changed his self image from feeling short, having no confidence, skinny.

If you can't see that then you aren't in a postion to talk about Don Quiote.

Your simply lacking something.

Did you read the diary?

What kind of person do you think joins the CIA?

People interested in having power over others. Sneaky people. Voyeurs, asocial people, disconnected people, paranoid people, empty people, cold people, cheaters, thieves, dishonest people, phony people concerned with their weakness.

The CIA ....I dare anyone ...tell me one thing they have ever done that Stabilized the world...that helped anyone in any signifcant way...

their history is a history of creating problems ...giving birth to problems.

They may be immortalized in film. In real life they are a DUMB group of people. DIM....All they have is money and technology and NO BRAINS on how to use it for anyone's benefit.

THE CIA IS A AMERICAN DISEASE.

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
Live by hyperbole (4.83 / 6)
and then get upset when someone points out how ridiculous you sound?

Seems like Markos isn't the only one with sensitivity issues.

How tall are you Stu?

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
How Tall are You? (0.00 / 0)
I am 5' 11" tall.

I save the hyperbole for the comments section because I am not going to research peoples sensitiviity about being short in the comments section.

Almost all the short people I have known are acutely aware....male and female of being short...and in this country POWER is everything.

That's just common sense ...man.

It's common knowledge that it is not unsual to find very tall people who are not terribly agressive and short people who are....do I have to explain that.

Height...at the extremes.... has a major impact on their self concept....any tall woman or short woman or man will tell you that...if you have any intimacy with them at all.

Now, how tall are you?

Or better yet...what did you think of Markos involvement with the CIA?

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
6'0" (0.00 / 0)
And to play your mind-reading stereotype games I could just as easily state that short (or fat, ugly, skinny, goth, outsider-types, etc...) people who are aware and sensitive about social power issues because of their own physiology, often become paranoid conspiracy theorists because their perceived powerlessness to change their own situations leads them to blame all of their failures on the grand schemes of others.

Personally, I don't believe what I just wrote any more than I do what you did.

And hyperbole, IMO, is your rhetorical Achilles heel.

It certainly gets you attention though.  Is that the true goal?


(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
Jake the Diary on Kos and the CIA (7.50 / 2)
The problem with this site, I guess... is it keeps getting personal all the time....people who don't agree with the diary... start this personal stuff that they would probably never have the bravery to do in public.

What do you think of the diary Jake....do you think it's conspiratorial or factual or a mistreprsentation of the facts?

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
So let me get this straight (6.00 / 1)
When you question Kos' past actions and ascribe to them your theory about that in regards to his own remarks regarding his physiology, that's not personal?

But when I highlight what I consider to be a remarkably baseless example of your hyperbole (that is greedily and happily gobbled up around here because it is anti-Kos), that's somehow over-the-line and something I wouldn't say to your face.

The double standards that are employed and ignored around here are quite simply amazing.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
Oh and (6.00 / 1)
to answer your question, I think your diary is an accumulation of facts with huge, gaping holes that you attempt to fill in with your own narrative.

Such is the way with conspiracy theories, cherry-picked data that leads to an already made conclusion.

Haven't you been making identical claims regarding Markos long before this diary (only in those cases with no facts at all, just your famous intuition)?

I listened to the Kos interview you link to and specifically on the CIA piece, the subject comes up because the interviewer finds it odd that "the Left" has been championing the CIA as of late (regarding their analysis about Saddam/Iraq, Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson, etc...) when this puts them at odds with not only the current administration, but also the historical position of their own.

What's funny is that so many people like youself want to pigeonhole the organization as being this or that, but let me ask you this: did they or did they not contradict the White House on the evidence for the need to invade Iraq?

Weren't they the "good guy" in this one?

You also left out that markos had a decision between taking the CIA job or working for Howard Dean.  Which one did he choose?

Do you have any evidence to contradict what Markos says about the people he talked to within the organization, that they didn't believe the evidence was there and knew the Bush administration wanted to gloss over that and go to war (something the past 4 years would seem to bear out)?

You get upset because I cherry-picked your most blatant use of conjecture and hyperbole and left the rest of your diary unanswered.

I really can't see any difference between my actions with you and yours with Kos.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
And finally (6.00 / 1)
after reading this diary yet again I am reminded eerily of the Bush administration's run-up to the war: 

We've made up our mind, the facts that we like regarding someone most all of us would agree is bad are presented here, we'll fill in the narrative or make suggestions that should fit your own pre-conceived opinions, trust us, we're right.


(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
CIA is Poision (9.00 / 2)
Kos says he didn't take his assignment to be a SPY in Washington D.C. and undercover postion...not a secretarial position, not a postion as a data analysis ....BUT A SPY....because he didn't want to go to Washington D.C. he hated washignton d.c. ...so he went to work for the Dean Campaign....

You ask about the CIA in regards to the run up to the war: Weren't they the "good guy" in this one? 

I am picturing George Tenet sitting behind Colin Powell at the United Nations with Powell telling us about Bio Weapons Labs, Drones, etc....funny almost ridiculous stuff.....The CIA wants to present itself  as the good guy. They are currently working at killing people in Iran who are innocent of any crime and destabilizing that regime. They are kidnapping people all over the world and having them tortured,

They are looney...destructive madmen....

The history of the CIA is a history of a violent non sensical orgainization that results in blowback upon blowback...there is no end to it.

I have never heard of one thing they have done that's been benefiical.

Everything in the diary is simply factual information....do you have any factual information to offer?

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
You don't answer a single point (0.00 / 0)
I make, rather you continue to make subjective claims regarding the CIA.

If your subject wasn't Kos you would be talking to yourself.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
CIA Instrument of Madness (10.50 / 2)
Jake ...you want me to do all the work ...I'm supposed to present evidence about the CIA that's not subjective......this is the comments section...

You ...have you ever spent anytime writing any diaries....I mean your asking me to verify common knowledge....the CIA is a destructive organization with a long history of abuse...abuse they have admitted to yet contiinue to do.

Look up Phillip Agee and Ray McGovern they are both ex CIA guys...they have a story of incompetence and madness to tell...but it's observable..

They support Mossagedh then they get rid of him.,.they support the Shah then they get rid of him....then they get Kohmeni, now they want to bomb iran

They support Bin Laden then they don't like him....It goes on and on.

They are the instrument of madness

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
Answer this then (0.00 / 0)
Look up Phillip Agee and Ray McGovern they are both ex CIA guys.

There are plenty of ex-CIA guys out there.  Why do you bring these guys up?  Wouldn't it be better to listen to them all?  I've seen McGovern lately, and he seems to have a chip on his shoulder, and to be more ideological and speaking to the choir than a strictly objective source.

Anyway, aren't they instruments of madness?

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Others (0.00 / 0)
Yes, but they are ex CIA.....

THere's Larry Johnson who is always posting on Booman...he's still pro torture of innocent people as long as it's sleep deprivation....how kind...

And Pat Lang on Booman....he's some turgid, backward fiend also.

I think Philip Agee is living in Cuba....I guess he did some horrific things in Central America.....

Or maybe you could talk to wanna be Markos Moulitasa....friend of the CIA.


Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
Mr. Piddy, once again (0.00 / 0)
The questions is why you would quote or mention just these particular ex-CIA guys.

It's all too easy to have a dogma in mind, ad then just quote those who believe in your dogma.

Intellectual honesty requires thinking aobut all the ex-CIA guys.  My own practice would be to skip those who say things i want to hear.  Why would they be necessary.

I would also tend to skip those who had a political axe to grind.  That would cause me to skip anyone who posted on Booman, at least in the first run.

I'm not sure i would trust Agee, since he left the CIA, what, 30 years ago. 
And anyone upset by the "outing" of Mrs. Wilson would be apoplectic at Agee, who outed 250 operatives.  He is also known to have worked with the KGB.  And you trust this guy?  B ecause he worked with the KGB?

As for torture, you should write an essay on the legal definition of torture.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Freedom is a conservative value? (0.00 / 0)
wow.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

[ Parent ]
You're beating a dead whore. (7.67 / 3)
;)

Peeder (6.00 / 1)
did you read this?

Stu Piddy....a free range human

[ Parent ]
Fucking brilliant line. (7.50 / 2)

Come on, Stu -- admit it -- it's a hilarious line.



--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
See...It was just like I was sayin, (8.00 / 1)
When Dee Dee dKos,

Can't use eveybody like a tool,

Then it's Markos,

That looks like a fool!

Oh Well...

Taste the Wrath Bitch!

If you guys and gals want to elect me president, I'll save America from an Apocalypse. I walk with God and the spirit shows me many signs. I have it on good authority that God is really pissed off with you people and even worse, Mother Nature is furious.


well, crap (6.50 / 2)
And today was the day when I inexplicably answered one of those "roll call" diaries.

mbr + dv + woyg

Roll Call (0.00 / 0)
What does that mean?

Stu Piddy....a free range human

[ Parent ]
It means... (9.33 / 3)
..."data mining", or that's what I think when someone asks name, age, education level, etc.

mbr + dv + woyg

[ Parent ]
Talking to myself (0.00 / 0)
Does it look like data mining...name and age...when the quotations are from Joan Didion books and other books...and not entirely from the web..

What kind of response is that to the Diary?

Are you incapable of being direct?

This is a diary that if you read it should not require me to interpret for you.

The man as of 2006 has called the CIA liberal.

I guess i'm just talking to myself.

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
no no (6.50 / 2)
That's not what I meant at all- I'm sorry. I am indeed incapable of being direct I guess. I didn't mean your diary was the data-miner- I meant that there was one on DKos asking about all that stuff and I foolishly replied. I did read your diary and in my above cliff notes question I just wanted to make sure I wasn't MISinterpreting you. That's all. Sorry. I won't be oblique in your diaries anymore if that's not condoned.

mbr + dv + woyg

[ Parent ]
All that Stuff (0.00 / 0)
Where is one in Dkos asking about "all that stuff". I am interested to know....

Thanks

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
Going Crazy (0.00 / 0)
I looked at the link....it has nothing to do with Kos and the CIA or El Salvador...

It's everybody telling each other what they do for a living and their age etc.

One of us is going crazy. Your already there and your making me crazy.

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
sadly, no (0.00 / 0)
I fear we are simply misinterpreting each other. Again, I apologize for being unable to explain myself properly to your standard.

mbr + dv + woyg

[ Parent ]
I'm not interested in poetry (0.00 / 0)
I don't know what the hell you are talking about.

I don't think there is anything on Dkos that pulls together all the information that I have...if there is ...I would like to know...and then what a waste of time this was....

What do I care about condoning....I don't think in those terms....

What about the information in the diary?

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
Stu (6.20 / 5)
Let me try here.  I think I see the misunderstanding.

keirdubois read this diary, and sees Kos/dKos in a new light because of it.

But before keirdubois read your diary, keirdubois responded to another diary at dKos asking for personal information.  Generally that information is used to profile people.  Datamining is a term describing (among other things) gathering information about people, and make connections.  The less harmful use of that is to sell the information about people to marketers/advertisers.  The more nefarious can be the TSA no-fly lists (tho the dKos info is hardly likely to be used like that).

Then again, if dKos is a CIA plant, why rule that out?


[ Parent ]
thanks (7.00 / 2)
I've been moving to my new house all week and so some of my mental faculties are in minor meltdown.

btw I do appreciate the work done by Stu in this diary.

mbr + dv + woyg


[ Parent ]
Moving (7.50 / 2)
Congrats on the new house.  I remember moving a couple years ago.  Took me months to get back to "normal" ;)

[ Parent ]
My reaction to your diary (8.50 / 4)
First, you finally took Maryscott's advice and pulled together the information you had scattered hither and yon, and, most importantly, provided some links so that people can check the information for themselves.

I'd say you did a reasonably good job of putting everything you had to say in one place.

However, I was already well aware of everything you'd written regarding Moulitsas, so I'm not the best judge of how others will react.  This isn't new information to me, but I've been surprised by how many people aren't aware of inconsistencies in Moulitsas' own account of his past and political beliefs.

Stu, what I focus on is where Moulitsas is now.  People can change.  And what I see from him now is that he really still is a Reagan Republican who tries to hide it just enough to be credibly called a "Democrat".

Moulitsas is not a Democrat; he is a Republican.  It's just that the sort of Republican he is has been disinvited from the Republican Party.  Moulitsas has therefore undertaken the Republicanization of the Democratic Party as his mission.

He needn't have bothered.  First, the man has very little real political power (can anybody name a concrete accomplishment of his in politics since Bush became President?) and second, the Democrats are happily collaborating with the Republicans without Moulitsas' encouragement.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


Well. ... (10.00 / 1)
He applied to the CIA in 2001....after becoming a 'Democrat"....

He spoke about the CIA as being a "bunch of liberals".

He is essientially as Francis Holland pointed out a states rights advocate.

He values freedom ...that's capatilism....conservatism

Socialists value equality.

The CIA...He applied to work there. Does he work there now? Did the people he met during his 6 months interview process...dozens of people...become his friends...any of them.

Have they gotten to know each other? Would he respond if one of them called and asked for a favor for the agency?

Was this poor refugee's family deeply involved with the dictatorship or junta in El Salvador that was supported by the CIA? ...the same outfit that he applied to work for. Was his family involved with the CIA in El Salvador?

I am not a johnny come lately to Moultitsas. I have alway stated he was a completely phony individual ...meaning he is in complete contradiction with himself.

That's the point of the Diary and it is filled with lots of information that I have never seen on this or any other blog...so for you to say you are familiar with it...this escapes me.

I was hoping people might ask some questions about this.....

I again mention...that I wrote a diary about Kos in Las Vegas last year and it was critical of Kos...and last year Kos was a favorite around here...it was criticized. Mary Scott Really screamed about how I didn't know Kos....alll those comments are gone...it says 0 comments....I remember there were quite a few for this website.

What's that about?


Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
I don't get all of my information from blogs--I read books, magazines, etc. (9.00 / 4)
That's the point of the Diary and it is filled with lots of information that I have never seen on this or any other blog...so for you to say you are familiar with it...this escapes me.

Everything you wrote about, Stu, has been published in interviews, magazines, newspapers.  I have them all bookmarked (and more that you haven't touched upon in this diary) should I feel the need to access it.

I also have some other records that are public, but are not magazine or newspaper articles, which raise some interesting questions about Mr. Moulitsas.  These include real estate records and other things--again, nothing that can't be legally accessed by the public if you know where to look.  Research/teaching is my profession, and I have colleagues who are better at it than I, so it's been no trouble to dig up what I wanted, when I wanted.  There are a few missing pieces to the puzzle, but only a few, and these are records that are private, not public, so I cannot legally access them.  In the end, I found I didn't need to do so to see the whole picture.

In other words, Stu, if you could find this information, may I humbly suggest that others could find it, and more.  I did my research and came to my conclusions about Mr. Moulitsas more than two years ago.  I've shared a great deal of this information in private with people I trust, rather than making it public, not because I can't prove it, but because I decided that putting a dent in Moulitsas' hide wasn't going to make any difference in the real world.  I'm not much for playing games, really.

Ultimately, I don't think his past is as interesting or relevant as his present.  Do you really think you can expose him as a CIA operative?  It's well-known that the CIA has long planted operatives in major newspapers, so it's conceivable that the CIA may have decided to branch out into funding bloggers, but how do you intend to prove it?

What we can prove is that Kos is, by his own admission, a "libertarian" Democrat who is anti-feminist, anti-civil rights, scorns street activists and leftists, liberals, and progressives in general, opposes the Iraq War but not American aggression in foreign policy, and favors regulation of the most egregious behavior of Big Business, but mostly would give them a free rein.

That's all I need to know.  I'm not saying that you are wrong to feel the need to dig more into Kos' past and connections, only that I have enough information to consign him to the Do Not Trust Under Any Circumstances bin.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
Curmudegeon (9.00 / 1)
Blogging Curmudgeon.

It's is important to know what the truth is. Whatever information you have simply sheds light. I am very interested in what you khow. It's interesting to know. I want to know it. Please reveal it in some manner.

The information I gathered is intended to create a picture of a person in contradiction.Fpr Ex/  He seeks to join the CIA who played a role in murdering the person he most admires....

His past is everything and is more relevant than the present because the past is  everything that makes up the present. You can't separate the two...they are one.

I don't personally think he works for the CIA. He justs likes to flirt...flirt with going to Iraq as a soldier, flirt with the CIA, flirt with congressman. He's a flirt.

Why do you speak of having information at all if you are not going to reveal it?....It's not fair to do that...and it's better to say nothing if you aren't going to talk about it.

I'm not interested in Me or You. I'm interested in Him....at this time

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
Doesn't Make Sense (9.00 / 3)
I've shared a great deal of this information in private with people I trust, rather than making it public, not because I can't prove it, but because I decided that putting a dent in Moulitsas' hide wasn't going to make any difference in the real world.
Why keep secrets? Are you afraid of being sued? I wish you would share what you've learned, as Stu has. You don't have to go on a campaign. Keeping secrets enables and protects devious people. I think you're choosing your battles a little too carefully.

Kos has damaged progressive organizing much more than anyone seems to be willing to acknowledge. Subtle things. Putting up a false progressive front, then disallowing many topics of discussion through ridicule (tinfoil hats anyone?), hostility, isolation, banning. Just read the diaries of recent refugees from the orange place!

The behavior of the DK thought-enforcers shut me up & pushed me out of blogatopia for awhile. I was thrilled when I first discovered the place. A bunch of really smart people as intensely interested in politics as I am. I wasted hours there, mostly reading. I fell for the line that it was a "community" and yearned to be part of it. Once I started commenting I eventually realized that I was NEVER going to be let in. I expressed my opinion that it was stupid to make plans and analyses based on the assumption that an election had been lost when it was actually stolen. I expressed skepticism about the official 9/11 story. Forbidden thoughts even more than taboo words.

Having more information about the guy behind it helps make sense. Although, as we learned back in the 60-70's, when agents were doing so much damage inside left-wing organizations, it matters little whether someone is a fool or a liar -- the effect is pretty much the same.

Burnet O (-8.31,-6.31)
Resist tyranny


[ Parent ]
I answered this question in more detail already (6.00 / 3)
The information I haven't disclosed primarily concerns (publicly available) real estate records.  Moulitsas and I live in the same county (in fact I live only a five minute drive from his house), and I've seen him on the streets of Berkeley a couple of times--so it was an easy matter for me to pull up certain records regarding the purchase of his house.
I was a bit suspicious when Moulitsas breezily estimated his net income from DailyKos at $100,000 annually, then purchased a house that was well out of his price range unless he had a HUGE down payment or his income was far beyond that.

Problem is, I calculated his income from ads minus the expenses of running DailyKos, and the numbers don't add up.

Then there's also the issue of Moulitsas' involvement with the Alameda County Democratic Party...or should I say lack of involvement with the party? For a guy who's supposedly  a fierce pro-Democratic partisan, he sure doesn't seem to be a fanatic about little things like donating money to the Democrats in 2002 or 2004, nor giving money to local candidates.  Moulitsas also doesn't seem interested in registering to vote as a Democrat (yes, voter registration records are also public).

Moulitsas chose to give his money to Jon Tester and Jim Webb, for example--who both fucked us over on the Iraq withdrawal timetable vote--instead of Jerry McNerney, a freshman Congressman who represents my district and voted FOR the Iraq withdrawal timetable in the House.  McNerney also unseated the loathsome, corrupt GOP Representative Richard Pombo in an uphill battle.  I gave shoe leather and money to that battle, which everyone thought Pombo would win--Kos lifted not a finger nor gave a dime (although Act Blue did list McNerney as one of its candidates...but that's MyDD, not DailyKos).

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
Dear Burnet (0.00 / 0)
THANKS for sharing and I know the feeling!

Anyone who dares raise questions about 9/11, the USS Liberty and supports HUMAN RIGHTS for Palestinians all suffer the same fate at the Daily Kos: censorship, slander and banning.

FULL REPORT JUNE 7 WAWA BLOG:

It Sure Smells Like a Right Wing Zionist Cabal at The Daily Kos

http://www.wearewide...

Eileen Fleming, Agitator church, state and limp MSM.


[ Parent ]
Blogging Curmudgeion (0.00 / 0)
BC...I don't care about whose a better researcher... i have never thought of myself as a researcher....

Have you any information on Markos and his uncle. The uncles name would presumably be Zuniga. I found it very difficult to find anything out about education ministers in El Salvador.

I also can't crack why his family moved to El Salvador in the first place and I wonder if it has to do with the uncle being education minister.

Now, this isn't snooping. This is investigating the remarks and claims of a public figure who is directing a small political group in the United States,

We are finding he has ties with the CIA. That warrants in my opinion further investigation about who he actually is.

I don't think he's in the CIA. BUt....I wonder if they call him and ask him for favors on occassion....or if they ever called him...even once...Judith Miller had a relationship with the Office of Special Plans in Dick Cheney's office....they worked together.

Anderson Cooper trained with the CIA....Peter Jennings had contacts with the CIA...

I want to know what's going on...thats all.

Real Estate records....I don't know what the significance of that is.

I am not particularly interested in him as a crook or a capitalist...

I am interested in what he's trying to do politically and what involvement there may or may not be with the CIA or OTHER organizations, the contradictions and apparent misleading or at least selective emphasis on his refugee status, "poorness", and humble background. And  exposure of him as something other than a liberal.

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
This isn't a contest to see who's the better researcher (0.00 / 0)
I just have more experience and training in the field, that's all.  What you've been able to locate through a Net search is relevant stuff.  However, I have access to paid databases that most people don't, and as a former IRS employee, I know how to dig up real estate records, etcetera, that don't require a subpoena.

As far as Mr. Moulitsas' uncle, the short answer is that it's quite difficult to get information about the education ministry of El Salvador during that period precisely BECAUSE of the controversy to which you refer (the executions and torture of students and university professors).  The Ministry of Education was almost certainly one of the information-gathering agencies for the right-wing death squads.

Hence, the records, if there were any, have been destroyed or removed.  There's no Freedom of Information in El Salvador, and so one can't demand access to government records.

Stu, I take it that you are familiar with the CIA program known as Operation Mockingbird?  If not, Google it and you'll have another piece of the puzzle. 

George Bush's father, who was then CIA Director, claimed in 1976 that Operation Mockingbird had been terminated.  But gee, do you think he might have been lying?  Naw...the CIA would NEVER do that.  I mean, Judith Miller, formerly of the New York Times, wasn't in the pay of the CIA, was she? 

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
I'm a better Researcher than You (0.00 / 0)
I am a better researcher than you are Blogging Curmudgeon!

Now compete with me....

I have put together this diary. Put together another one better. More incisive with more information.

So far what you are saying is I should look up stuff you already know and I will find pieces of the puzzle you already know....what for? Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and show me your hand full of cards?

Operation Mockingbiird...I looked it up....So?....

The CIA is an inept organization made up of buffoons with lots of money and technology and they are hysterical primitive people incapalbe of interpretation. They are basically very rural, ignorant people. They are anything but sophisticated. If Markos is working for them ....he'd fit right in.

Manipulation of the public did not come from the CIA....it comes from the world of Advertising and has in it's orgins...the figure of Edward Bernaise. If watch this video...put together by Adam Curtis who is a real researcher it seems...you have to watch at least ten minutes of it...because the beggining may seem unrelated...but it's establishing the base of information for what's to follow....how advertising and focus groups began to be used by politicians...

http://video.google....

I don't think it's the CIA that is turning the meaning of the word....liberal into a conservative Reagan Republican from the 1980's.

It's another force....a historical force that I cannot comphrehend...that overshadows everything. It seems history is an almost an actual living energy that comes in currents.

Fundamentalism and conservatism are world wide events...Russia and China for example have become more conservative as has the Mid East....The CIA has nothing to do with it except as being soaked in this historical force and act accordingly.

I don't know if we are entering into a new Dark Ages...but it may be we are. It will be a little different from the last one.

Anyway your being coy....don't be coy please...be direct simply state directly some information..

There is information on Education Ministers in El Salvador by the way the information has not been destroyed...it's not a secret...There's a whole website in Spanish about the Education Ministry in El Salvador ...I speak and read Spanish ...but I can't find anything historical....it's there...I don't have that much time....since you a real researcher you could tell me how to find it.......

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
No, Stu, you're wrong (0.00 / 0)
The records of that particular ministry have huge gaps in them.

How do I know?  I know a professor of library science who is on sabbatical for a year, doing consulting work for the government of El Salvador to design their public library services.

This professor is highly fluent in Spanish, and I asked him if he would have a look at the government archives for me regarding Moulitsas' uncle.

The archives are either sealed or missing from that time period.  One of the workers there warned the professor it was better not to ask about why certain records were sealed, nor to inquire about the missing ones.

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
Thanks Blogging Curmudgeon (0.00 / 0)
Thanks for trying that's a start.

As education minister with the last name Zuniga most likely...it still ought to be a record if not in the Ministiry of Education then in public records, newspapers etc.

As I noted above there are books with info on various Education Ministers like Antonio Herrera Rebollo" Minister of Education who was killed by rebels in revenge after 37 people were killed by government forces in May 1979. (El Salvador: The Face of Revolution by Robert Armstrong)

There is nothing on the net about Rebollo....I don't know why he would have been the uncle....

It's a key thing because it leads to other things and opens the door to more information....The uncle was an acheictect.

Family connections....as in most countries but especially Latin America are profound. If his uncle was education minister he most probably was placed in that position because of the people he knew and his influence might have afforded the Moulitsas family an opportunity to cash in on uncles position and thus they moved to El Salvador...that's speculation...but that's what needs to be looked at...because a lot more things fall into place if that was the case.

That's a key ingredient.

His father was a janitor and mother a secretary...he says when they returned....but for how long...janitors in Chicago got paid failrly well in the school system with great benefits...but I wonder if he's being selective. I'm from Chicago...Schaumberg is a very wealthy area....somethings not right...with his long term description.

Why did his family move to El Salvador? Could be an innocent reason...maybe it's not so innocent.

The purpose of knowing is two fold...it tells us how he's framed his experience of being a "refugee" as a grown man and it tells us where the hell he came from as compared to what he's hinted at.


Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
Stu, I don't think Kos' family is rich (6.00 / 1)
Kos mentioned in an interview that he had to take on $100,000 worth of debt to finish Boston University School of Law.

If his family was rich, they wouldn't have allowed him to rack up such a huge student debt, would they?

I don't understand what you're trying to prove through Kos' uncle.

If you're trying to prove that his family was on the right-wing/government side of the civil war in El Salvador, Kos has already said they were, so no need to prove THAT.

If you're trying to prove his family was involved with death squads, well, Kos was only a kid at the time.  You can't hold a little kid accountable for the actions of his uncle. 

If you want to find out more about the uncle, isn't there an international registry for architects or something?  I'd think his uncle would be listed in there.  Eh, whatever.


[ Parent ]
Mister Smith (0.00 / 0)
That's law school. Not college. I didn't say his family was rich. They may have been or may not have been. But things don't add up. I know a little about Schaumberg. I live in Chicago. Schuamberg is a joke in Chicago. It represents the people who are so far removed from the city....the quintessiential suburbanite...wealthy, unaware and unsophisticated.

Many people can go to college. You don't have to be rich at least not for the first two years as there  a junior colleges which  are not so expensive. for people with some income.

The issue he brought up was going to college, not law school. His family living in one of the wealthiest suburbs in America -and the world - could not, he said  afford to send him to college ...he said without his being in the army....Maybe that's true...maybe it isn't....it doesn't seem to fit though...

The point I am trying to make is his selective use of his experience which emphasizes his position as "refugee", "immigrant"...("I came to this country in 1980"}..."between jobs"......"I witnessed communists kill students and professors" (On TV?)

There so many.....

Then of course he's a liberal who spent 6 months interviewing with the CIA. That's 6 months of contact with the CIA...meeting dozens of people and talking for hours. Presumably getting to know people, perhaps making friends and making himself available perhaps should they need a favor...why not. He says the CIA is a "bunch of liberals" just like him.

His uncle may have had nothing to do with the families move to El Salvador or everything to do with it.

THere is a real difference between an adult referring to their childhood as being refugee when in fact they may have been part of the ruling oppressive oligarchy that was intimately involved in repression and death squads. An education Minister could have been part of that network that involved death squads.

Some were.

So ...who is this guy Markos Moulitsas?

Thanks for the tip.....on Architects...maybe somebody could look into it....

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
Communists didn't kill students and professors in El Salvador (0.00 / 0)
Right-wing death squads killed leftist students and professors in El Salvador.  The national University of El Salvador was considered such a hotbed of anti-government leftism that the Education Minister ordered it closed between 1980-84. 

Stu, I'm not defending Moulitsas.  I agree that there's something rotten in Kosmark.  I'm only trying to point out some flaws in your argument.

For example, I teach in a community where the average household income is sky-high.  Yet not ALL of my students are wealthy, because there are relatively cheap apartments where working class people can live.  I have kids who vacation in Tahiti and kids who don't even own a computer, although the poor kids are a relatively small part of the population of our school (maybe 5%).  The rest run from solidly middle class to stinking rich.

Isn't it possible that Kos' family was one of those exceptions in Schaumburg?  Or didn't you see the film, "The Slums of Beverly Hills"?  I imagine that his family values education, and moved to Schaumburg because the schools are good.


[ Parent ]
Flaws...there aren't any... (0.00 / 0)
Yes, it 2% of the population in Schaumberg is supposed to be below the poverty level.

There is no flaw in my argument....not in the diary..... I didn't say he came from a wealthy family...but it appears  the family was wealthy enough to send him to college because they wanted himn to go....like everybody else....and that it was well connected in El Salvador to the wealthiest people in El Salvador. I don't believe persoanlly his dad was a janitor for long and his mom a secretary for long....what the hell were they doing in El Salvador.? I would like to know if it had to do with uncle being minister of education....That's a postion for the very, very , very wealthy rich and connected almost always...though there may be an exception..

Moutlitsas does not have the look of someone who has struggled at  all....he may be a hard worker but he's very soft and he's very lame and very average. I think he's a hard worker and his appeal is that he appeals to other people of average intelligence who never developed themselves...he's completely utterly mainstream...nothing original.


Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
One more thing: It's CURMUDGEON (0.00 / 0)
I share one quirk with Maryscott:  I want people to spell my username correctly.  Thanks!

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"

[ Parent ]
No socialism without democracy. (0.00 / 0)
No democracy without freedom.

You wrote:

He values freedom ...that's capatilism....conservatism

Socialists value equality.




"Democracy signifies rule of the majority, but not less the protection of minorities." Karl Kautsky

[ Parent ]
A data point (8.00 / 3)
Moulitsas took the political compass test back in 2005 or so, and reported his results on his front page...I don't have the link handy but you could dig it up. I recall he came out something like -1.5, -4. Which is way, way to the right of most of his volunteer contributors at that time, and not even as libertarian as most of them.

And those were the answers he provided for public consumption...

(I tested out at that time I think around -6, -6, which is roughly the mean for a Daily Kos contributor that took the test...MSOC was something like -9.5, -7...an authentic lefty.


[ Parent ]
I'm 0,0 (0.00 / 0)
oooohhhhhmnmnmnmnm

-pyrrho-

[ Parent ]
Mine's in my sig... (0.00 / 0)


--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

[ Parent ]
Mary Scott Did you Know About Kos and the CIA? (0.00 / 0)
Mary Scott....were you aware of of the extent of
Moulitsas involvement with CIA prior to this diary. Had you listened to the Commonwealth club tape?

I am just curious because I find it pretty surprising myself. And I wonder if other people knew to this extent.

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
Stu, yes, I did know. (10.00 / 3)

But I knew from the same source you did.

By the way, while I'm here -- you were right and I was wrong -- about Markos. Seems like everything he's ever said has been a lie.

I used to trust him; that's why I defended him.

No longer. This post of yours, while somewhat convoluted -- well, it can't HELP being convoluted, can it? The man has more inconsistencies in his story than the freaking Bush Administration.

Lately I've been seeing more and more similarities between Markos and Bush. I don't feel like writing about it anymore... but I'm glad someone is.

I apologise for my past chastisement of you where this is concerned.

Not everything -- but definitely this subject...

: )

And I hope to have those archived comments available soon.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
MSOC (8.00 / 1)
What is convoluted about it?

Stu Piddy....a free range human

[ Parent ]
Stu -- the STORY itself is convoluted. (0.00 / 0)

As in, who the hell can keep track of what happened where and when and how and why, when the guy has lied about at least half of it?

That's what I meant. Not casting aspersions on your writing.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
The more I read this stuff (0.00 / 3)
the more I love this:

We've made up our mind, the facts that support our pre-conceived opinions regarding someone most all of us would agree is bad are presented here, we'll fill in the narrative or make suggestions that should fit your own pre-conceived opinions, trust us, we're right.

In tonight's performance, playing the role based on Mr. Paul Wolfowitz, ......Stuuuuuuuuuuuu  Piddy!

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
Paul Wolfowitz (0.00 / 0)
I don't have holes in my socks.....and I am not schzoid....like Paul Wolfowitz.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

[ Parent ]
MSOC (0.00 / 0)
You had something to e-mail me?  *nudge nudge

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

[ Parent ]
Kos Pact with Satan (7.00 / 3)
Must be the secret maifesto signed by Moulitsas proclaiming his allegiance to Satan...I've heard rumours that Mary Scott had this...th e real reason for their falling out.

I would like that email too...seriously...I would.

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
damn, NP, did I ever email that? (0.00 / 0)

shit shit shit

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

[ Parent ]
Thanks, Stu (0.00 / 0)
I knew some of this, but not to this level of detail.  I had no idea he was from one of the ruling families, for instance.  Nor did I know about the CIA angle.

While it doesn't really change my opinion of him, it does give me new lines of thought on his motivations.


Selling Progress (8.00 / 2)
there is a thread.

the one time I talked with kos in 2003 when I organized one of the first get togethers in berkeley, I joked it was funny we were routing for the CIA (in the Plame deal)... he just chuckled, I thought there was something unsaid... he's careful at not saying things.

but not so careful when he does say them.

the self-image he projects does not add up, but it's so transparent it is the fault of all those that refuse to see, but still, also his fault for lack of honesty.

this speculation bothers some, but you have not stepped beyond the bounds of his own words... and some might have been inclined to speculate he took the job with the CIA and stayed deployed in Berkeley... but you didn't.

What you did say is much more powerful... and not even condemning of kos as a man really, not if you think someone has a right to be conservative or even misguided... excepting the part we also know, that he sells progress to naive and angry voters.

-pyrrho-


Thanks Pyrrho (6.00 / 3)
That's pretty good analysis of what I was trying to do. Pyrrho.

Put pieces together and not interject what I think as much as possible...let the reader decide. His own words clearly put him in contradiction given the history of El Salvador, the nature of the CIA and the more detailed view of his family who were hardly refugees from an oppressive government seeking sanctuary in America.

The family was part of an oppressive oligarchy that sought refugee from the poor and came back to America when it appeared the poor were getting out of hand in El Salvador.

He came to the RIGHT country.

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
maybe he's just angling for a movie deal... (7.00 / 2)
Confessions of a Dangerkos Mind"

He's already got The Gong Show over there.....





"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG


Ok, Stu, here's some things you may or may not have (10.00 / 2)
First, on the real estate records:  the records concern the purchase of Moulitsas' house.  I'm mindful of the fact that he has a wife and two kids and, especially since the Kathy Sierra incident, I don't want to invite any danger onto the man's family.  However, my evidence isn't much unless I post copies of the records, and while they aren't private, I don't want to be the person responsible for bringing a stalker to his doorstep.* 

Second, here's a few things you may not know:

Kos engaged with an agency to represent him for speaking engagements at college campuses, corporate events, etc.  I wrote to the agency which represents him and others (such as Howard Zinn) and requested their speaking fees. 

This is the description from the Lavin Agency of Mr. Moulitsas:

Daily Kos, the most-read political blog in the world, has struck a nerve with millions of Americans and revitalized political awareness in this country. In record numbers, previously disillusioned voters are once again engaged in and excited about the political process. Daily Kos has, quite literally, changed the rules of the game in American political life.

By mining the democratic potential of the internet and fusing it to a grassroots activism, Markos Moulitsas, the man behind Daily Kos, has single-handedly changed political discourse in America: Rather than the usual spin-doctoring, deceit and corruption put forth by politicians, he emphasizes the voice of the individual, and the power of that voice, when joined by others, to be heard and to usher in real change. America's most provocative political website, Daily Kos attracts a staggering one million unique visitors a month and is one of the top five most linked blogs on the web.

Moulitsas' brash, probing and accessible writing takes us behind the scenes of the modern political machine in a way few others have attempted. Tackling vital political topics by tracking key races, exposing corruption, and holding politicians accountable, he brings an unprecedented level of political awareness to the general public. And politicians are also listening: the site is regularly visited by congressmen, senators, governors, and other political luminaries, and many have pointed to the transformative effect Moulitsas and Daily Kos have had on the resurgent Democratic Party, especially their recent return to power in both the House and The Senate.

Born on September 11, 1971, in Chicago, Markos Moulitsas was raised in El Salvador, where he lived until 1980 when civil war forced his family back to America. At the age of 17, he enrolled in the US Army, serving as an artilleryman. Daily Kos (rhymes with "dose," his army nickname) was launched in 2002. Moulitsas' critically acclaimed book, Crashing The Gate, co-authored with Jerome Armstrong, which examines the movement toward a more authentic and populist democracy, was released to great acclaim in 2006.

This is the response I received from the Lavin Agency regarding Moulitsas' fees:

Dear (my real name redacted):

Thanks for your interest in Markos Moulitsas and Howard Zinn.

Current honorariums for these speaker are:

Moulitsas - $10,000 plus business class travel and expenses from San Francisco

Zinn -$12,500 plus first- class travel/exp from Boston

We arrange all travel and invoice you for the actual cost, which , or course, varies for many reasons.

Please  let me know if you'd like to pursue their availability, and I will be happy to help.

You can reach me 9-5 M-F and the number below, or simply reply to this email address.

Kind Regards,
NAME REDACTED
The Lavin Agency
222 Third Street
Suite 1130
Cambridge, MA  02142
800-762-4234 x REDACTED
NAME REDACTED@thelavinagency.com

Also, there's the issue of Moulitsas claiming he never said he was a liberal.  Well, it depends on which audience he's addressing.  The story keeps changing:

Notice in the video he says "Buy a liberal book, make a conservative cry."

So he's claiming he's a LIBERAL when it will help his book sales, but the rest of the time he's "Liberals?  Ptooh!  I spit on liberals!"

Now, on to the issue of Kos' contradictory statements regarding his liberalism:

Here's the
money quote:

This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we're all still in this fight together. We happily embrace centrists like NDN's Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama. Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog. It's a Democratic blog with one goal in mind: electoral victory. And since we haven't gotten any of that from the current crew, we're one more thing: a reform blog. The battle for the party is not an ideological battle. It's one between establishment and anti-establishment factions. And as I've said a million times, the status quo is untenable.

But he also says in the very beginning of that, "I'm a liberal, sure, (though pro-free trade, pro-balanced budgets, if that means anything)."

Then he says in the Benjamin Wallace-Wells article (which Stu referenced from The Washington Monthly): 

"They want to make me into the latest Jesse Jackson, but I'm not ideological at all," Moulitsas told me, "I'm just all about winning."

Then there's the DLC attack, outlined in the Wallace-Wells article:

"No calls for a truce will be brooked," he wrote. "Appeals to party unity will fall on deaf ear… We need to make the DLC radioactive. And we will. With everyone's help, we really can. Stay tuned.

...called off three days before the Great Unveiling of the Master Plan to Destroy the DLC.  Wallace-Wells' take?

That Moulitsas would be attacking a group with whom he generally agrees can be explained in part by his lack of historical perspective.

I've got a ton more stuff, including the allegations of financial hanky-panky with Kos' partner Jerome Armstrong, the fact that Kos and his lieutenants fly into a rage whenever anyone asks if he's taking money from sources other than his advertisers (not as a political consultant, but to support Daily Kos), etcetera, but if the evidence I've just posted in addition to Stu's left doubt in any reasonable person's mind that Kos is, at best, a used car salesman who will say and do anything to move that rusted '71 Buick off the lot, then piling on more facts won't convince them.

*All records of real estate transactions are recorded in the country in which they occur.  They are a matter of public record.

 

Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


$10,000 doesn't buy what it used to (7.50 / 2)
Howard Zinn is a renowned historian and a very fine public speaker.

Moulitsas charges $10,000 for what we saw in the YouTube video.  Plus all the peanuts he can eat on the plane.

Uh...I could feed a whole lot of homeless people with that $10,000, or help a progressive get elected to city or county government, or even the state legislature, with 10 grand.

I do wonder how busy Moulitsas' schedule is?


Once again, I'm at the mercy of someone I wouldn't let pick my nose!--John Lithgow, "Third Rock from the Sun"


[ Parent ]
Evidence? (3.00 / 4)
So claim #1, that Markos cannot afford his houese without income from another source is being thrown out because you are such a good guy.  Noted. 

Verict: Claim #1 Ineligible due to lack of, well anything.

So claim #2. We have been given proof that Markos makes quite a bit of money for speaking engagements.  Which actually would help refute claim #1 if you weren't such a good guy. 

Verdict: Claim #2 Proven. Markos makes a lot of money speaking.

Claim #3. We have been given proof that Markos is liberal to some people and not to others, purportedely because he is a weasel.  I would respond that to the general American public, Markos is a liberal, but to those at MLW he is the heir to The Gipper.

Verdict: Claim #3 Undecided.

Not bad.  So you proved that Markos makes a lot of money speaking and (I'll give you this one because even the dreaded Kos gets to change his mind) that he's a flip-flopper on the liberal thing.

That's .500.  Good work.

Claim #4 "tons" of stuff regarding allegations surrounding Markos' former partner, and anectdotal evidence regarding behavior of Kos lieutenants.

Werdict: Claim #4 Ineligible because no real claim is made and no evidence provided to back up initial non-existent claim.



(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
The final 2 paragraphs (0.00 / 0)
to my post should have come before the 2 paragraphs prior to that.

My bad.

(Insert name here) is a right-wing fascist warmonger!


[ Parent ]
That's rich. (9.00 / 4)

You fucked up your cut and paste spam.

Hilarious.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


[ Parent ]
Not Personal, Mr. Piddy (0.00 / 0)
I scanned the diary.  To paraphrase Hawkeye, the instrument has not been invented that could measure the minuteness of any interest I might have in Karkos what='is=name or dKos.

I am responding on this subthread which started with your comment, dubbed the "cliff notes version" about values.  There was some playful exchange in which you participated about your being stalked by the CIA, and I played along.  It's fun stuff.

Part of the problem here at MLW is that people are oh, so serious, and don't see humour.  Part of the reason for tis is that they often think they are Jerry Falwell correct (Hey, I almost said 'right') and in the spirit of "personal as political"  think that the mere suggestion that their thought isn't the complete and only truth is a personal attack.  Try one of the abortion debates, for instance.

I appreciate your putting things on a continuum.  That is a bit of nuance too often lacking here at this site, where people are automatically "Republicans" of they are a little right of the writer.

Now, a suggestion for another look at the continuum.  As the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on liberalism, which i linked recently cites,

‘By definition’, Maurice Cranston rightly pointed out, ‘a liberal is a man who believes in liberty.’  In two different ways, liberals accord liberty primacy as a political value. First, liberals have typically maintained that humans are naturally in ‘a State of perfect Freedom to order their Actions…as they think fit…without asking leave, or depending on the Will of any other Man’ (Locke, 1960 [1689]: 287). Mill too argued that ‘[T]he burden of proof is supposed to [be w]ith those who are against liberty; who contend for any restriction or prohibition…. The a priori assumption is in favour of freedom…’(Mill, 1991 [1859]: 472). This might be called the Fundamental Liberal Principle (Gaus, 1996: 162-166): freedom is normatively basic, and so the onus of justification is on those who would limit freedom. It follows from this that political authority and law must be justified, as they limit the liberty of citizens. 

  Liberty is at the core.  If "equality" (other than the kinds of equality required for liberty, like equality before the law) is to be a practical limit on equality, then an argument for such a limit must be argued on practical grounds in each case.  The analogy is that we limit liberty with a police power just because we can argue that in toto, we promote liberty in general by having such a power in the government.  The government, to a liberal, has no end other than to promote liberty, defend the constitution, and to defend our country against those who wish to end it.  All other ends (such as "promote the general welfare") must be seen in that light.

The article cited offers an explanation for the change from this "OG" version of liberalism to the present, more Stalinistic form of liberalism (remember, don't take things so seriously--it's on the continuum in that direction):

What has come to be known as ‘new’, ‘revisionist’, or ‘welfare state’ liberalism challenges this intimate connection between personal liberty and a private property based market order (Freeden, 1978; Gaus, 1983a; Macpherson, 1973: ch. 4). Three factors help explain the rise of this revisionist theory. First, the new liberalism arose in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, a period in which the ability of a free market to sustain what Lord Beveridge (1944: 96) called a ‘prosperous equilibrium’ was being questioned (Gaus, 1983b). If a private property based market tended to be unstable, or could, as Keynes argued (1973 [1936]), get stuck in an equilibrium with high unemployment, new liberals came to doubt that it was an adequate foundation for a stable, free society. Here the second factor comes into play: just as the new liberals were losing faith in the market, their faith in government as a means of supervising economic life was increasing. This was partly due to the experiences of the First World War, in which government attempts at economic planning seemed to succeed (Dewey, 1929: 551-60); more importantly, this reevaluation of the state was spurred by the democratisation of western states, and the conviction that, for the first time, elected officials could truly be, in J.A. Hobson's phrase ‘representatives of the community’ (1922: 49). As D.G. Ritchie observed:

  be it observed that arguments used against ‘government’ action, where the government is entirely or mainly in the hands of a ruling class or caste, exercising wisely or unwisely a paternal or grandmotherly authority — such arguments lose their force just in proportion as the government becomes more and more genuinely the government of the people by the people themselves (1896: 64).

The third factor underlying the development of the new liberalism was probably the most fundamental: a growing conviction that, so far from being ‘the guardian of every other right’ (Ely, 1992: 26), property rights generated an unjust inequality of power that led to a less-than-equal liberty (typically, ‘positive liberty’) for the working class. This theme is central to contemporary American liberalism, which combines strong endorsement of civil and personal liberties with, at best, an indifference, and often enough an antipathy, to private ownership.

Oddly, both classical and modern liberals claim Mill as a precursor, and, indeed, there are seeds of both in Mill!  You will notice, I hope, that at bottom, the arguments here are practical in nature, not ideological.  the important thing about practical arguments is that they must be renewed as times change.  Instead, we have let them harden into ideology.  Some of the adherents of this new liberalism are every bit as hard headed as Jerry Falwell was.

The new, or "revisionist" liberal, those here at this site, in the main, would do better to adopt the name that is more descriptive of their philosophy, and is used in most of the rest of the world for it, "Social Democrats."  Classical liberals, closer to the other end of the spectrum, now must use either that name or "libertarian."

I also suggest another refinement to your continuum, that of placing (true) conservatives between classical liberals ands the new liberals.  True conservatives (as opposed to the new liberal-like neocons) think that government can modify liberty in the name of "order," and order tends to be defined as "what's good for business."  They tend to think that what is good for business is good for all Americans.  It is they who state "The business of America is business," and "What's good for General Motors is good for America."

We should also not that your continuum extends beyond the groups cited here in both directions, to the "anarcho-capitalists" in the one direction, and the more doctrinal Marxists in the other.

We should further note that the names we used here, you and I, do not so much denote a point on your continuum, but a point which represents the center of some spread along the continuum.

One last note on this:  in the sense of "conservative" which is opposed to "progressive," the new liberals are the conservatives.  In so much as they seek to resist changing the ideals and programs put in my historical new liberals, like FDR and LBJ, they are conservative.  Remember, by the 1950s it was already possible to speak of the "liberal establishment."  To a classical liberal, the term is an oxymoron!  Classically, liberalism has implied a constant struggle with the forces of oppression, that is, government. "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom!"  That is, vigilance against the encroachment of government on liberty.

So, Mr. Piddy, you are right, it isn't about you and me, and it wasn't.  I am sorry you took it that way.

I am sorry to disappoint you in not talking directly about your diary.  I know that disappointment, you know.  I hope i explained why I, personally, did not comment on it directly.

And may I note that your notion of a continuum provides a way for us to have what Gore wants, an open discussion.  If we are all for the same things, just weighing them against each other differently, why are we so rancourous when we come to the discussion?  Why don't we talk of the practical things to come to some consensus, or, short of that if necessary, compromise national policy, which is subject to constant revision and change with conditions?  Why do we identify good guys and bad guys on the basis of political philosophy?

One last thing...someone up the thread asked you to define "equality."  I think that this is a necessary project.  My inference is that new liberals tend to want something close to "equality of outcome."  After all, they often make arguments based on relative wealth to show inequality, not necessarily the more classically based arguments based on inequality before the law, although they certainly join in those.

A German correspondent of mine explained the German ideal this way:

Our system is designed to do two things, economically:

First, it is designed to make it very difficult for anyone to become very rich.

Second, it is designed so that if one does become very rich, it doesn't give him much of an advantage.

I think this is a fair capsule of the Social Democratic philosophy.  It wants to level income as much as it can without disrupting the economy to a malignant extent, and in providing things like health care directly, it seeks to blunt the advantage of wealth in vital areas.

So, I, for one, would be very interested in just which equalities you or any other new liberal think are wroth sacrificing a measure of liberty for.  (Please note that i am not saying that you  or anyone else wants to sacrifice "freedom," in its entirety.  I am asking for the definition of such freedom, and the practical arguments for why we should give up how much freedom for it.  AS in the police powers argument that we all, or most of us, accept.)

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


Madscientist (0.00 / 0)
This is simpler.

I remember Milton Rokeach did a study and found that Conservatives value freedom more than equality and liberals value equality more than freedom..

That's a better way of putting it. It makes sense. I think you'll find that to be true...States rights=individual freedom  Welfare State = equality....or Captialism  vs Socialism

And Moulitsas emphasizes individual freedom all the time, i believe...he has a diary on it....sorry too tired to look it up....

Stu Piddy....a free range human


[ Parent ]
The problem is... (0.00 / 0)
that it is simplistic, non-descriptive.

Try taking a poll here to ask t5hose who call themselves liberals whether they value equality more than freedom.

And you might ask them if they had offered to send me money in the name of their commitment to equality.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
This diary is an EXCELLENT piece of work! (0.00 / 0)
Let me see if I understand you:  A child of the Salvadoran Oligarchy comes to the United States, joins the Army of the US which was funding the Salvadoran death squads, works for Republican Senator Hyde and the 1992 election campaign of Republican candidate George H.W. Bush, AND acknowledges that he spent six months in the employ of the CIA and THIS is what qualifies him to be a leader of the American Left?

When I started my blog "The Truth About Kos" some six months ago, I didn't have nearly as much information to work with as you have compiled here, all in one place.

Kos is an agent of the US CIA.  Does it get any better than that?  Do young CIA agents ever retire or do they just work undercover for leftist organization, creating a national database of the IP numbers of people who oppose the government.  Kos is an agent of George Orwell.

Now let me really lay something on you:  Who is the candidate who Secret Agent Kos LEAST wants for president of the United States.  That's right!  Secret Agent Kos desperately doesn't want Hillary Rodham Clinton to become president.

So, if your a progressive, now what do you do?  Do you follow the CIA Agent Kos, who admits that he worked voted for Republican candidates for the US Senate and the US presidency, and who is from a family steeped in the Salvadoran Oligarchy?  Or do you take in this new information about Kos, and support the candidate whom Kos LEAST wants for president of the United States, on the assumption that whatever SECRET AGENT MAN doesn't want is probably what we actually most need.

I'll tell you this also.  Blacks have always known intuitively that Kos was no friend of the Blacks or the American left.  The little cretin believes in "states rights."  That's always been a tip-off that a person is a secret member of the Klu Klux Klan or some similarly disreputable conservative clandestine group.  And now we know what Clandestine group Kos is a part of:  the CIA.

Why didn't Kos tell us this before?  Didn't he think it was relevant to our decision about the role he should have in the leadership of the American Left and the Democratic Party?

Henry Hyde didn't like Bill Clinton (and tried to impeach him) and now Hyde's campaign worker, Secret Agent Kos, doesn't like Hillary Clinton.  It all makes sense, doesn't it?  It good we found this out before we took Kos' advice about whom to elect president in 2008!

I was fortunate only to be banned from DailyKos.  It could have been much worse.  I could have been extraordinarily renditioned on the orders of SECRET AGENT KOS and ended up in a torture chamber in Poland.

As I said on June 13, 2006, Kos is "an exquisite little crank."

How many of you will still be attending the YearlyKos CIA meeting in Chicago this August.  If you WANT to work for the CIA, this might be just the place to spread your resume around!

Stu Piddy, I'm going to post a link to this article at my blog, The Truth About Kos.  This is more truth than I ever expected to find.

This is a terribly embarrassing event for the Kos sycophants who are also regular participants at MyLeftWing.

"Only after we change that which seemed essential do we realize how natural the "new normal" really is and how inevitable it always was."


Oh, for a thousands tongues to sing in honor of this diary! n/t (0.00 / 0)


"Only after we change that which seemed essential do we realize how natural the "new normal" really is and how inevitable it always was."

Thank you (7.00 / 1)
your IP address has been noted.  Carry on.

/snark


All I can say is (7.50 / 2)
Kos failed the polygraph test I administered to him during his Mossad interview.  So we hired him, of course.

And from 1997 to 1999, he was in Yemen. That's as much as I can say.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.


FROM a Blogger who was Slandered, Censored and Banned by Markos (0.00 / 0)
THE FOLLOWING is my email to "GOOGLE NEWS" which was inspired by the email I received from my Editor at the PEOPLES VOICE, which follows:

Because of my pro-human rights position for Palestinians and because I am a correspondent for the thepeoplesvoice.org [among MANY other websites] I endured weeks of  UNJUST attacks, slander, censorship and then was banned without notice from the Daily Kos and Street Prophets.

The slander against me has continued on Little Green Footballs, a site I have never posted on.

Excerpted from June 7, 2007 WAWA Blog

http://www.wearewide...

It Sure Smells Like a Right Wing Zionist Cabal at The Daily Kos

I have never been one for conspiracy theories; but I do understand all things are connected and nothing happens by accident.

My short 'career' at the Daily Kos, touted as a "progressive" site which seeks to elect democrats, has been one of the most chilling and illuminating experiences of my life…

…On the afternoon of June 3, 2007, when I discovered I was no longer allowed access to respond to the attacks against me or post another diary, I immediately emailed the founder or the site the following letter:

Dear Markos,

I am unable to comment back to anyone on my diary, as the COMMENT click has disappeared. I assume it is because my many attackers were able to finally achieve their goal and silence me.

...will you please clarify for my article the following issues?

1. How is it that one can be relentlessly slandered by so many on this site and have no recourse to respond?

2. Why are the commenters allowed to continuously post all sorts of inaccurate and derogatory comments about me, but I am dammed if I ignore them and Troll Rated when I respond?

3. Why does this site allow mean spirited, closed minded and hard hearted people the right to express themselves, yet I am denied the right to share what comes from my heart and what I learned in OPT?

4. Why are commenters allowed to persistently accuse me of all sorts of inaccuracies, such as I am anti-Semitic and a holocaust denier, without any proof cited from any of my writings to back up their false claims and now, I am denied the right to respond?

5. How come the supportive comments posted on the thread and my thank you comments back to the writer have been deleted? What is the criterion for such censorship?

6. If this site is dedicated to elect a democrat, why are sophomoric comments and inappropriate pictures allowed to be used to hi-jack a diary that addresses the most critical issue of this century: the 40th year of occupation of Palestine in the pursuit of human rights for all which would lead to justice, security and peace for all the people of the Holy Land?

I have yet to receive his reply.

The most persistent issue for this particular cabal of Kossacks was because of the free advertisement with a link to my site that the Editor of Peoples Voice had so graciously posted on the Peoples Voice site. This well organized cabal of Kossacks had judged and ruled that the Peoples Voice is an anti-Semitic "hate site" and has denied the holocaust. When I alerted the Editor of Peoples Voice about the slander against us, he attempted to post the following, but his comment was immediately deleted. Apparently, someone or some bodies were on duty 24/7 specifically to act as a censor.

What the Editor of Peoples Voice wrote:

...I have witnessed many baseless slanders and groundless attacks. Thepeoplesvoice.org is neither a hate site nor an anti Semitic site. There is not one denial of the holocaust present on thepeoplesvoice.org web site however there are many pages reaffirming the holocaust. 

It seems to me that the people here attack others for speaking about things that supporters of Israel don't like. I would say Mrs. Fleming is not being attacked for any wrong she has done, but because of her views, and some people here have launched into a little smear job against her.

None of the accusations about Eileen Fleming or thepeoplesvoice have merit.

...I have openly challenged you to back up your accusations that thepeoplesvoice.org or Eileen Fleming are anti Semitic and that thepeoplesvoice.org posts holocaust denials, but you only delete my posts like a child.

Please show me where thepeoplesvoice.org has denied the holocaust as you have alleged over the past week, I want to see the proof and I am sure the public wants to see the proof also.[end]

Although I am unable to respond to comments and attacks on my diary, the cabal has continued to talk about me and thus, provide the following proof.

  On June 4, 2007, Zemblan wrote:

Just a quick note about Eileen

About Eileen

I don't think she'll be posting here anymore…Poor Eileen. There's only one possible explanation. Obviously, she's just another victim of the Zionist Thought Police. Her advertising and crossposting on a hate site were simply irrelevant and could not possibly have factored into her departure in any way. If you think otherwise, you're a victim of Zionist mind control, just like the DKos editors. And it wasn't even really a decision the DKos editors agreed with; they were simply cowed into banning Eileen by a well-organized campaign of email harrassment that was most likely promulgated through GIYUS [ED Note: GIYUS/ Give Israel Your United Support, is a project of the World Union of Jewish Students] and I'll bet there were thousands of emails from Tel-Aviv...

No other possible explanation could possibly be possible, especially the plain and simply one given. She is clearly another victim of the Infantophagy Lobby.

by zemblan on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 11:26:13 AM PDT

* And one other note

Remember when someone was hopping up and down about how this controversy is really all a put-on by Thuh Zionist Thought Police, and that we secretly didn't give a damn about the hate site, just about trying to silence Eileen's daring and controversial…

by zemblan on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 11:42:40 AM PDT http://www.dailykos....

What piqued my interest immediately is that I have a link attached to my website that informs me, where my readers are coming from. The 24 hours from June 3rd at 4 AM until June 4th, proved that visits from Israel increased so greatly, that Israel went from 17th place into 5th place out of the total countries who had visited my site during that time period…

On Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 07:38:35 PM PDT a Kossack named Warren Terrer wrote:

Eileen has again been banned, apparently. Shergald's cunning plan is working! Bwahahahaha!

http://www.dailykos....

The Peoples Voice gives voice to ALL the people, it is in no way a hate site or anti-Semitic, just controversial; as the truth always is! In fairness and in support of freedom of speech, I beseech you to PLEASE put the Peoples Voice back on Google News.

Thank you,
Eileen Fleming
Author "MEMOIRS OF A NICE IRISH-AMERICAN 'GIRL'S' LIFE IN OCCUPIED TERRITORY"
Reporter and Editor
http://www.wearewide...

_________________________________

On 6/26/07, The Editor of Peoples Voice,
Ragnar B. Johannessen wrote:
Dear Reader,

We @ thepeoplesvoice.org need your help! Anti-democratic forces have succeeded in making Google take us off its news list. It is important for web sites like ours to be listed there, so that more people will have access to alternative points of view, not just the Main Stream Media. Below you will find an extract of what we have to say about these negative forces. You will find the rest of it on our homepage. We will later post an extended article about this. As you will understand, we WILL fight back, but we do need your help to succeed in this. Please consider helping us.

"Well, they're at it again. This time a gang of crazies at the Daily Kos have managed to convince Google News to remove our site. They may have had help from the extremists at 'Little Green Footballs' or 'Elder of Ziyon', two other sites that want to shut us down. They falsely accuse us of anti-Semitism when we are fiercely opposed to bigotry and racism in all it's forms. It is our sincere belief that a handful of people who seek to inhibit freedom of speech cannot equal the power of the majority of the people. If you like what we are doing and want more people to see the articles on our site please write a few words or a letter to Google News. Tell them that you like the site and to please put thepeoplesvoice.org back on Google News."

If you would like to help out, please just enter our  homepage and click on "Contact Google News" in the upper right hand corner. This will lead you to Google's page dedicated to  suggestions and / or feedback. Please just fill in your name etc. and whatever you would like to say or use the text / example below. Thank you!

Sincerely,
Schuyler Ebbets &
Ragnar Johannessen
The People's Voice
thepeoplesvoice.org

http://www.thepeople...

Eileen Fleming, Agitator church, state and limp MSM.


KOS and the CIA | 92 comments


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(My Favourite Guilty Pleasures...)

* Brian William Tie Report Archives *

* ~ Go Fug Yourself ~ *

* ~ PAJIBA ~ *


* Awful Plastic Surgery

* Chronic Babe

* Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

* Department of Nance
* Deus Ex Malcontent

* DListed

* Egotastic

* Go Fug Yourself

* Goop
* The Grammar Vandal
* I Don't Like You In That Way

* In Case You Didn't Know

* The Leaky Cauldron

* Mancub

* Manolo's Shoe Blog

* Kate McKinnon

* The Modern Gal
* Mollygood

* Rotten Tomatoes

* Rusty's Ventures

* The Sartorialist

* A Socialite's Life


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The Best of the Rest

* Afrobella

* Air America Radio

* Alcoholics Anonymous

* All Things Democrat

* All Things Motocross

* Aquarius Papers -- Astrology
* ArloNet
* Art Crit

* The Art of Elysium

* The Art Experience

* Auld Manhattoe

* Bane of Monotheism

* Burning Man
* Burning Violin

* Buy Blue

* Causes Rats in Laboratory Cancer

* Church Sign Generator

* Colbert Nation

* Comedy Central

* Creek Running North

* Current TV Blog

* Daily Kitten

* The Daily Show

* despair.com

*Disgrasian

* Downing Street Memos

* Dynamics of Cats

* Roger Ebert's Journal

* The Far Manor

* The Film Experience
* Flying Squid Studios

* Gallery of the Absurd

* Give Me My Remote

* Glossed Over

* Grendel's Kitchen

* Joe Hill Fiction

Hollywood, Interrupted

* Hooked on Drums

* Eddie Izzard

* Jazz Cooking

* Jack E. Jett

* Kate's Kitchen

* Kate's Studio - Kate Kretz

* Stephen King

Las Vegas Links

* Lobal Warming

* Lupus Support Group: MD Junction.com

*BILLMAHER

* Manolo Men

* Taylor Marsh

* Maxi the Marvelous Make-Up Artist

* Moby

* Michael Moore

* My Net Biz

* My Own Private I Dunno

* Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

The Onion

* Parvum Opus

* Pink is the New Blog

* Pink Tea

* Pop Sugar

* Posthumous Democrazy

* Pretty on the Outside

Public Secrets...

Radenko Fanuka

* Rhonda Records -- Wales

* Rod Online

* Rosie O'Donnell

* Safe Now

* Secular Sobriety

Silicon India

* The Simon

* Slowly Going Bald

* Soulforce

* Starry Starry Night

* Television Without Pity

* Temple of Bush

* Theology & Geometry

* This Isn't Writing, It's Typing

* Unitarian Universalist

* Vermilion Brain

* Weber Blue

* White Trash Mom

* Wil Wheaton

* Zod for President 2008


* MSOC's
Amazon Wish List


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Podcasts & Broadcasts We Like


* Air America Radio

* Blog Talk Radio /ePluribus Radio
"Don't Hijack My Thread"

* Doing My Part for the Left
(refinish69, MLW member)

* KPCC
(Southern California Public Radio)

* Pariah Island

* A Prairie Home Companion

* Velvel on Media




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