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She Can't Win For Losing

by: Forgiven

Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 05:52:58 AM PST



(I'm not saying I feel BAD for her or anything, because I know her to be far more [and not in a GOOD way] than just "the first viable female candidate" -- but the points are valid, nonetheless. - promoted by Maryscott O'Connor)


    There have been times in this election when I have truly felt sorry for Hillary Clinton. While the truth is that she has not been well served by this campaign or her advisers, this only highlights a bigger issue that has plagued her. Regardless of how this election turns out for her she can never win. The reason she can never win is because she can never be herself or she can never have her own voice. It is this lack of a true consistent voice that continues to plague her and her campaign. Regardless of what you may think of her competitors they have been afforded the luxury of being who they are, Hillary on the other hand has not.


Forgiven :: She Can't Win For Losing



    She began this campaign with a man's voice, that she could be just as tough as the boys on security, defense, and the terrorists. But was this what the voters wanted from her? The problem with being a man that looks like a woman is that most voters if given the chance will choose a man. Why have half the package when you can have the whole thing? Conventional wisdom had it that she had to present this tough as nails image to win over white males. Did the voters want a woman that spoke to the issues with the voice of a man? Would the voters support a woman that spoke to the issues as a woman? The problem is that we will never know, because Hillary was never given the opportunity to try. I find it interesting that in the few opportunities that Hillary allowed that female voice to come through she did surprisingly well in those elections. Was it a statistical glitch or was this what the electorate wanted from her?

    What do we want from our female candidates? Do we want them to speak to issues as women, bringing those characteristics that separate women from men. It seems that in America we have gotten confused, we have come to the conclusion that equality means  sameness. In order for women to be equal to men they must be the same as men, they must be as tough, as masculine, and as treacherous. Rather than accept that we can be different and yet still be equal, we have the mistaken belief that in order to be equal we must be the same. It is this thought process that causes us to absorb other cultures and want everyone to be the same. Those who refuse to accept the Western civilization model and values are deemed inferior and uncivilized. Rather than celebrate and promote our differences we want to integrate and merge them into this one ideal.

    While many other societies and cultures value differences in race and gender, we tend to fear them. Given the climate in this country today what would the odds be of an American-born Muslim being elected to any office? Those that are not like us we fear, so we want to make everyone like us even if we have to kill them in the process. Hillary is a victim of this mentality on another level. Instead of being able to bring her femininity to her campaign she is forced to campaign like "one of the guys". Because rather than her being a choice for change to a more feminine position, she has to mimic the men. So she is a woman that is not allowed to be a woman. Barack Obama has a similar problem in that he is the black man that cannot be black.

    For Hillary being a woman should have been an asset in this election and in this country. You would think the electorate would have gotten tired of four hundred years of white men leading this country and would want to try some new leadership. It was fear that the country was unwilling to elect a true woman's voice that caused her to become this hybrid that appears as a woman but speaks as a man. Unfortunately for Hillary this has caused her to lose support among women who had been hoping that she would speak with a feminine voice. Instead of hearing reconciliation and nurturing they have heard talk of 3 am phone calls to deliver bombs on sleepy villages and a willingness to go nuclear if the boys do it. While this talk may appeal to the hardcore feminist who needs to prove that she is as tough as any man, the majority of women do not share this desire. Many women enjoy and appreciate their tenderness and yes their softness. These are the women that Hillary was not able to speak to or for. These are the women who never got a voice in this election.

    Hillary wanted the best of both worlds, she wanted to be able to use being a woman when it was convenient and yet be like a man when it was needed. She never was able to find her own voice, the voice of a woman being a woman. In the end this lack of a true voice will cost Hillary either the primaries or the general election. I am not sure if Hillary would have done better being a woman, but I am sorry she didn't try. I do know that that campaign would have advanced the cause of women a lot farther than this one has. As it stands now we are still presenting women candidates that must speak like men to be taken seriously. I just hope the next woman who runs won't be afraid to use her female voice and be who she is. The real question I guess is, will we let her?

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic - John F. Kennedy

The Disputed Truth


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She Can't Win For Losing | 50 comments
The irony is that (5.67 / 3)
the loudest "female voice" in this race belongs to Obama.  Another irony is that Bill Clinton spoke, always, with his wife's "female voice".  Unfortunately Hillary will be a Skull and a warmonger to the end.  Peace

Forgiven's Tip Jar (10.29 / 7)


--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

One Simple Truth on Mrs. Clinton (7.00 / 6)
That largely goes unspoken and remains obscured amidst the fear mongering, slander, swill and swirling accusations of misogyny and media unfairness (and that one is a real hoot given that she is always referred to as HILLARY which she has marketed as a brand name much like BUSH was) is the one very simple and ugly truth that people just refuse to acknowledge.

A hell of a lot of people just don't like her and there is a whole lot of resentment over having the DLC corporate establishment that runs the party ramming her down our throats. The sense of entitlement is another thing especially after the disastrous Bush restoration.

What the fuck can be expected by trotting out such a polarizing figure when there were far better choices who really could have reversed some of the damage done over the past twenty five years.

A tragic waste is that this all is because America really deserved better - or maybe we didn't.

Just my two cents

EE

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken


Actually you stated three "truths" (5.33 / 3)
1) A hell of a lot of people just don't like her.  Well, it would only take 65 million out of 125 million or so voters liking her in order for her to get elected.  The 60 million who didn't like her is still a hell of a lot of people - thrice the population of Iraq, for example.  Not being liked doesn't disqualify you for being elected president.  Or at least it doesn't seem to.

2) There is a whole lot of resentment over having the Democratic Leadership Council that runs the party ramming her down our throats.  Exactly who is the implied "we" in "our"?  Isn't this the battleground on which the primary is really being fought?  Whether the DLC or some new group will drive the vision of the Democratic Party.

3) The fact that people perceive (rightly or wrongly) that she thinks she is entitled to be president because Bill was or because of how Bill was treated as president.

They are indeed true.  And they do indeed turn off large numbers of people.  And by far the largest number of people who are turned off by these three truths are Republicans who are still supporting Bush--you know, the 30% of people.

It is fine to argue that America deserves better in a candidate.  Now identify who some of those possible "betters" are so we can know who to start supporting for 2012 or 2016.

Want a third party -- 50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts -- Go get 'em


[ Parent ]
my impression (7.38 / 8)
the stuff like "appearing tough to win white males" thing to me reveals that Hillary has a very mundane view of Americans, she doesn't really understand them and believes some basic lowest common denominator ideas... and therefore is on board with the "you have to fool them to help them" form of liberal compassion.

I think the real progressive candidate I'm looking toward will, among other things, be able to treat Americans with respect, treat them as intelligent regardless of their education, and help them realize they are intelligent, and need to act intelligently.



-pyrrho-


sadly I think I relate to her (0.00 / 0)
I haven't watched her that much, but from what I have seen I can see myself act as she do... perhaps out of different motivations (i'm not very political) but ending up in the same way (coming across as cold to others, easily flustered). Not to mention I'm also a bit of a dyke. ;-- ha

(My hearts more with the idea (hypothetical) of RonPaulKucinich though, not Obama or Hillary)

(I don't live in the US..)

Red Highways

ouhite


[ Parent ]
If she is the nominee...... (6.83 / 6)

I could not vote for her,  I would have to write in my vote.  

She can't run her campaign,

she has to hit below the belt to get votes,

she is praising McCain as more fit to be president than Obama!  

One thing I know for sure it took her running for president for her true colors to come out. We only had a hint before with her vote, she may as well hold hands with McCain and sing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran with that stupid crazy grin of hers.  

I am glad all of this has come out it makes it all too clear.

It is a matter of life and death, see the documentary Food INC and vote no to corporate take over of our food every time you buy groceries  


there's so many things to say (9.50 / 4)
But I'll start by saying that the reason Hillary can't be herself isn't so much because of her gender as it is her ambition.

No politician can be themselves and climb so high.

That's the whole point.

Believe me, if she were content being senator from New York, she could be a lot more herself.  

But she believes she should be president.  She wants to be president.  

I'll stop before I get tangential.

My only point is, of course she's more hobbled because she's a woman.  No argument there.

But she's every bit as hobbled by her own overweaning ambition; she wants to win, by any means necessary, and what's more, she's good at not being herself, which is what makes her such successful politician.

Maybe Power should have called her "protean" rather than a "monster."



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Anne Richards was pretty much herself... (7.20 / 5)
...wasn't she?

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And..... (6.40 / 5)

Barbara Jordan  

It is a matter of life and death, see the documentary Food INC and vote no to corporate take over of our food every time you buy groceries  


[ Parent ]
I don't feel any empathy toward her whatsoever. (6.60 / 5)
she is going to fight this all the way to Denver. she is counting on those super delegates. just what we need-another war president.

Sadie Yates
RIP
2003-2008


I have a sneaking suspicion (6.00 / 3)
that being herself is about the worst thing Hillary could do. She's manufactured that facade for a reason.

An anecdote: My husband served with a guy who had previously served on a Clinton security detail when she was First Lady. He relayed a few stories about Hil's horrifying rudeness. The one he remembers best was of her doing a meet and greet with the great unwashed and a woman came up, shook her hand, and began to lavish praise on her for several heart-felt moments. She gave her some piece of jewelry. Hillary thanked her and told her it would match some suit or other. After the woman was moved along, Hil pitched the gift to an aide and told her to "dispose of that ugly thing." Nice, huh. ;-)

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker


You don't say, Curm... (7.00 / 3)
...gee, I never would have figured her for the type.  She always looks so warm and easy smiling, nodding, sucking and jiving with the folks.

God.

Really, that's exactly, precisely what she looks like.  She looks like she wants to take a bath after a rally.

So regal.



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[ Parent ]
See (6.60 / 5)
this is what I said to my husband. Not even a little surprised by that story, because that is exactly the person that comes across in all those crisp, manufactured, public appearances. She doesn't do faux sincerity well, because doesn't do genuine sincerity well. And as I said to my husband, the worst part of that whole exchange to me is that she did that in full view of her security detail and the rest of the "help" because it doesn't even occur to her that those are actual people, with actual eyes and ears, and actual memories, on whom that behavior will make a lasting impression.

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

[ Parent ]
yes she should take a bath.......... (9.00 / 2)
........in the blood of all the dead in Iraq.

Sadie Yates
RIP
2003-2008


[ Parent ]
I feel pretty sure her cold and rigid exterior (8.00 / 6)
masks a cold and rigid interior.  Her speeches don't resonate because she says the words, but there's no feeling behind them.  She sympathizes with people's struggles, but her immobile face shows not a trace of emotion.

She wants the power of the Presidency for her own ego-gratification...not for what that power could accomplish for the people of this country.  She shares the DLC mindset of "the people" as a great, ignorant, easily manipulated horde.

There has been absolutely nothing feminine about her campaigning style or her appearance.  And I know it's petty, but I wish she'd stop wearing those gawdawful Wilma Flintstone necklaces as a fake concession to her femininity.


But come on! (7.25 / 4)
The tan, suede suit with the turquoise necklace the night she wooed Texas was inspired! You know, when she lost all those primaries and announced that it was all about Texas, from a Texas stage, down in Texas? Did you know they like turquoise jewelry down there in Texas? Not me. Had no idea. But Hil; she's a woman of the people. She "gets" Texas.

In all seriousness, one of the best ensembles her aides ever put together for her. She looked really soft and earthy, and when does she ever?!! It was actually right for her palette; something you don't see too often. But... um... pander much?

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker


[ Parent ]
Ah, but you know (6.00 / 2)
it's really all about Ohio.  When she was talking about a "Dream Ticket" aka "Nightmare Ticket", she said Ohio said she should get the top spot.

[ Parent ]
nightmare ticket (6.00 / 2)
you got that right.
as long as she's anywhere on the ticket-it's a nightnare.

Sadie Yates
RIP
2003-2008


[ Parent ]
her pandering is so shameless... (6.00 / 7)
...it's painful to watch.

Really, I squirm around in my seat watching her "connect" with the folks and my wife eventually makes us turn her off because she's just unbearable to watch.

Not quite so unbearable as Bush, I'll give her that, but man, she's in the ballpark.

Except, of course, in debates.

She shines in debates because she likes being the smart one, likes the battle, and knows her stuff.

Which is all well and good, but what makes her think she ought to be president because of that?

Clearly her skill is not at, I don't know, natural leadership or charisma or whatever, and yet people like her, so I guess they see things in her I don't.

Man, I just wish someone would just give her a fucking cabinet to run or something.  Defense, STate, HHS, what the fuck ever; something where her job isn't to project any kind of an image, but rather to "know the issues."

What's in it for her, man?

I really don't see why she wants to be president other than that she wants to be president.

Of course, I do believe she believes in health care and the middle class and all.  I believe she cares.  

But somehow that care doesn't seem to go all the way down.

It's a shallow kind of care.

But then, she's a shallow kind of person.  


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[ Parent ]
I can't remember (6.00 / 2)
when I've heard a candidate use the words "I" and "me" so much. Everything is about what "she" can and will do, like she's interviewing for a job. She doesn't understand leadership. She doesn't understand that the job of a president is not to enact an agenda and fix everything. It's to lead, to oversee, to listen, to bring together. And the contrast with Obama, who always speaks in the "we," is stunning. He inspires a sense of citizenship. That's what a good president does.  

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

[ Parent ]
Still (7.50 / 2)
there's something slightly off about how blogs  straddled their fences waiting to throw one or more Democrat Candidate under the bus.  Not this site.  This site was, on whole, Pro-Edwards, Kucinich.  Other sites, other TV hosts just recently threw her under the bus, when the winds blew against her and for Obama.  Granted many of those same sites have always held her at arms length, even when she travelled to kiss their rings at conventions.  A couple of those TV hosts were sycophants for her for years. But..."It's her fault."  Maybe.  I can sense the "WTF" tone of Joe Wilson's Pro-Hilary screeds.  He should know better, he's been operating in poltics for decades but even he seems stunned. I grew up in Upstate NY, in a rare very Conservative area of the State.  They like her up there.  Thought, when she wasn't running for President, she was a smart, affable, interested representative.  If this doesn't work out for her, maybe she can spend the rest of her life being a capable, bring home the bacon, icon like Ted Kennedy.  

[ Parent ]
And I can see Hillary (6.00 / 4)
as Senate Majority Leader. After all, she spent the first couple of years in the Senate learning the rules inside and out and learning to "game" the Senate rules. It's the kind of "need to know the issues and procedures" job at which she could really shine and get respect.

I've always thought that the best thing that ever happened to Ted Kennedy was being not a possible candidate for President (and yes, I do remember the horrendous episode that made that happen). He would have been a lousy President. Except for his inexplicable opposition to Cape Wind, he's been an effective and reliable senator for MA.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
ha ha haha! (7.67 / 3)
Right the fuck on, Susan.

I really don't know what people see in her.  

Here's the funny thing; the one quality in her I actually admire is her toughness.  I rooted for her in the nineties against the VRWC, admired her for standing up to those cretins.

But it's a toughness that serves nothing more than her own ambition.  She uses people.

She's a user.

Obviously all politicians are to some extent users, manipulating people for their votes.  

Of course.

But it's a matter of degree.

This woman is off the charts.

But it's not that she's off the charts that troubles me; what troubles me is that these poor fucking saps, the rabble, can't see the contempt in which she holds them.

The can't see the condescension, the shameless pandering and gladhanding of people she clearly thinks are pathetic.

Why do so many people trust her?  That's what I don't get.

Because I get the sense that her supporters really trust her on some level.

How do you figure?



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[ Parent ]
countless were very ready to elect a woman (10.00 / 1)
Dear Forgiven . . .

I read this essay yesterday and thought about it for hours.  I was reminded of it earlier today.  While an argument could be made, ultimately, I think Hillary Clinton's gender has served her well.

Many women have rallied round her.  Numerous men are impressed by her intellect and strength.  

For Hillary being a woman should have been an asset in this election and in this country. You would think the electorate would have gotten tired of four hundred years of white men leading this country and would want to try some new leadership. It was fear that the country was unwilling to elect a true woman's voice that caused her to become this hybrid that appears as a woman but speaks as a man.

I do not agree with the contention, in the sense that I think countless were very ready to elect a woman.  However, some, do not want just any person of a particular gender.  In time of corporate greed, common folks yearn for someone to speak to their interests.  As war is waged, people pray for peace and wish for someone to represent them in negotiations.  A President who states she will not meet with leaders she deems rogue is not diplomatic.  Hillary Clinton is a self-proclaimed fighter.  She returned from the Middle East and stated a need to place more troops in Afghanistan.

Hillary Clinton is proud of her combative "nature."  She and husband Bill are each aggressive.  Gender differences do not determine our demeanor.  Each is secretive.  Bill beams.  He bellows, and re-interpret history, as does Hillary.  

Regardless, of our sex, we learn habits and an approach to life.  Men scrutinize other men, women other women, and each evaluates persons of the opposite sex.  Ultimately, we choose to be with or vote for people we relate to.

I would not cast a ballot for someone based on gender, just as I did not vote for the candidate I was forever told was electable.   My concerns in reference to Hillary are about far more than an image.  Her history, past, present, and I fear future leaves me forlorn.

I offer one of many examples that causes me great concern. . .

Nobel winner: Hillary Clinton's "silly" Irish peace claims,
By Toby Harnden.
Telegraph
March 8, 2008

Hillary Clinton had no direct role in bringing peace to Northern Ireland and is a "wee bit silly" for exaggerating the part she played, according to Lord Trimble of Lisnagarvey, the Nobel Peace Prize winner and former First Minister of the province.

"I don't know there was much she did apart from accompanying Bill [Clinton] going around," he said. Her recent statements about being deeply involved were merely "the sort of thing people put in their canvassing leaflets" during elections. "She visited when things were happening, saw what was going on, she can certainly say it was part of her experience. I don't want to rain on the thing for her but being a cheerleader for something is slightly different from being a principal player."

Mrs Clinton has made Northern Ireland key to her claims of having extensive foreign policy experience, which helped her defeat Barack Obama in Ohio and Texas on Tuesday after she presented herself as being ready to tackle foreign policy crises at 3am.

"I helped to bring peace to Northern Ireland," she told CNN on Wednesday. But negotiators from the parties that helped broker the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 told The Daily Telegraph that her role was peripheral and that she played no part in the gruelling political talks over the years.

Lord Trimble shared the Nobel Peace Prize with John Hume, leader of the nationalist Social Democratic and Labour Party, in 1998. Conall McDevitt, an SDLP negotiator and aide to Mr Hume during the talks, said: "There would have been no contact with her either in person or on the phone. I was with Hume regularly during calls in the months leading up to the Good Friday Agreement when he was taking calls from the White House and they were invariably coming from the president."

Central to Mrs Clinton's claim of an important Northern Ireland role is a meeting she attended in Belfast in with a group of women from cross-community groups. "I actually went to Northern Ireland more than my husband did," she said in Nashua, New Hampshire on January 6th.




It is only the giving that makes us what [who] we are. - Ian Anderson. Jethro Tull . . . Betsy
BeThink.org


Well then, Betsy (7.20 / 5)
I guess Hillary could say she's good at embroidery.

...embroidering on the truth, that is.


[ Parent ]
embroidering on the truth? (0.00 / 0)
Dear SusanD . . .

Am I to interpret this as weaving her own, sticking pins and needles in the fabric of reality.  If so, I applaud your insight and humor.


It is only the giving that makes us what [who] we are. - Ian Anderson. Jethro Tull . . . Betsy
BeThink.org


[ Parent ]
Funny thing, Betsy... (7.25 / 4)
Al Gore was lambasted for things he didn't say, misquotes dreamed up by media people that supposedly he said that were false or ludicrous. For instance: he never said "I invented the Internet." What he did say was, in essence, "I was instrumental in getting the funding for the Pentagon's ARPANET, which became the Internet." A bit complex, but probably dead-on accurate, and a very different statement from what they said he said.

Now Hillary is claiming she was an important player in bringing peace to Northern Ireland and other important foreign policy roles in her husband's administration, obvious and provable exaggerations (other than privately advising Bill). And I haven't heard any howling about "exaggeration" or "lie" from the media, have you? Instead, her statement is being accepted with little or no question (at least right now). Weird, hmm?

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
It makes me wonder (6.00 / 2)
(quick Led Zep flashback there, but I'm back now)

The fact that the mainstream media, even Fox, isn't picking apart some of this makes me a little fearful that they're smoothing her path to the nomination, waiting to smear her with every misstatement, exaggeration and lie she has ever told.

Her "30 years of experience" have given her much more time than Obama has had to fill a closet with skeletons, and I think they will make her much more vulnerable to a swiftboat campaign in the general.

Vince Foster, anyone?


Insert witty quote here.


[ Parent ]
Rupert Murdoch owns Fox (6.00 / 3)
And he likes her, remember? Has contributed to her campaign, IIRC?

As I said in my Rant©, you're known by your friends as well as your words and your enemies.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
Shit, puzzled, (5.00 / 1)
it's late Sunday night, I am about to go to bed, and you put that ear worm in my head.  All night long "oooooooooh, it makes me wonder ooooooooooooh it really makes me wonder ooooooooooh...."

I hope you are happy.

Obama 2012.  Because he didn't piss off enough people the first time around.


[ Parent ]
mirrim, Hillary Clinton puts the media in its place (0.00 / 0)
Dear mirrim . . .
What he did say was, in essence, "I was instrumental in getting the funding for the Pentagon's ARPANET, which became the Internet."

Ahh, I love you for this information, revelation.
Now Hillary is claiming she was an important player in bringing peace to Northern Ireland and other important foreign policy roles in her husband's administration, obvious and provable exaggerations (other than privately advising Bill). And I haven't heard any howling about "exaggeration" or "lie" from the media, have you? Instead, her statement is being accepted with little or no question (at least right now). Weird, hmm?

Sadly, not weird.  The squeaky wheel.  Also, many of the media are fearful of her.  They want no more abuse directed at them.  Remember the men's washroom and the statement to the media not to take this placement personally?
Hillary Clinton puts the media in its place -- the men's room


It is only the giving that makes us what [who] we are. - Ian Anderson. Jethro Tull . . . Betsy
BeThink.org


[ Parent ]
The men's room location (11.00 / 1)
would, I would think, make them more likely to call her out on statements of "fact" which ain't. It used to be you dissed the press at your own peril.

But you're right, it doesn't work that way any more. Bush has spent eight years holding "press conferences" in which he tells them nothing or lies outright, and takes no questions that aren't checked ahead of time, if not planted outright, and the media haven't done a whole hell of a lot. I guess they figure some access is better than none...kind of like someone in an abusive relationship who figures any kind of attention "proves" the other person "loves" them.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
oh, I also liked Hillary... (6.00 / 4)
...when she was still Hillary Rodham and was all badass and ill-put together.

I liked that, because that seemed the real Hillary--no-nonsense, condescending towards those deserving of condescension, independent.

I liked that she came out guns blazing on health care.  

I was always disturbed by other parts of her personality, but I also admired things about her.

Now I just find her repellent, except when she plays the "sympathy card."  I can't believe I was taken in again by her.

I must have forgotten what I despised about her because I felt genuine pathos for her as she got desperate but was pathetic rather than nasty.  

Now she's just malevolent.

And Olberman said a funny thing, speaking of that; Obama should have said something about how "Well, as far as I know Hillary's not a monster."

God.

"As far as I know."

You sick fuck.



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She's morphed into (6.00 / 4)
Hillary Roveham Clinton

[ Parent ]
beware lest you become... (8.00 / 6)
...that which you oppose.

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[ Parent ]
She did have (6.00 / 4)
many years available to her to stare into the abyss.  

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

[ Parent ]
My sense is that deep down inside her (6.00 / 1)
heart is in the right place.

Unfortunately, it's gotten sooo deep down that it's worthless.  And although I hate it when people call her "bitch," because I think that's unfair, I just don't trust her.  If she had stood up concerning the war things would be very different, but I am convinced that her vote in favor of the war was really a vote in favor of herself.



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Lord of the Karmafishes


[ Parent ]
I appreciate (5.50 / 2)
I appreciate all the comments and everyone's input. The question I guess that I have looked to pose and hopefully get an answer to is not really about Hillary per se. My question is much deeper in that can a woman who runs as a woman, not as a tough as a man woman be elected as President.

An example that comes to mind is Angela Merkel in Germany. She ran as a woman, someone who was a nurturer and would use her feminine qualities as President. They did not expect her to be "like" a man. Here in America from the beginning of our history we have had only one style of leadership. A white male cowboy perspective in how we deal with ourselves and with the world. Now of course there have been a few men who have deviated from that perspective but overall it remains intact. You would think that a softer approach might sell, but I guess with the "war on terror" bumper sticker mentality it wouldn't have any buyers.

From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth; from the laziness that is content with half-truths; from the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth – oh God of Truth deliver us!— Unknown The Disputed Tr


Yup, if she's woman enough she can Forgiven, see below n/t (9.00 / 1)


I will not die an unlived life. Fuck em, I will not live in fear, I will live out loud and on the record.  

Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) 1-800-787-3224 (TTY)  


[ Parent ]
Yes, a woman running (8.00 / 6)
as a woman could win.  Ann Richards could  have won easily.  A very feminine woman, but one who wasn't afraid to speak her mind, and who wouldn't take anybody's guff.

A woman who would show her "real" strength, not the pseudo-male tough guy approach that Hillary uses, would do just fine.  You don't have to be mean to be strong, just steadfast.  You have to have the power of your convictions and you have to be true to your principles.  You have to say what you believe, and not what you think people want to hear.  You have to be able to say "this far, and no farther" and mean it.

And, actually, the same standards would apply to a man.

It's not that a woman couldn't win, it's that this woman can't win.


[ Parent ]
Ann Richards also had (6.50 / 4)
a wicked sense of humor, the which Hillary seems sorely to lack.

But examination of the available data leads only to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of the Bush Presidency is Warren Harding. (Steve Mirsky, "Antigravity", SciAm 10/05)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est. (Latin for All Occasions)


[ Parent ]
She gets not a whit of sympathy from me and here's why (10.89 / 9)
She chose how she was going to run for the presidency, she chose those who were on her staff, she chose to go with Mark Penn knowing he would get down and dirty, she also chose to believe it would all be over by now, the annotated one, the inevitable one, the entitled one.

She chose not to shut her husband the fuck up, she chose to laugh when confronted by the things he said, she chose to let others resign and to keep Mark Penn on, she chose to get bitter and resentful when things didn't go her way.

She chose to run as a man, there are countless women who wished she had chosen differently, countless women who wish she had run as a woman, because what the fuck is wrong with being a woman?

We wanted more from a woman candidate and she chose to ignore us, she chose to not be one of the greatest agents of change this country has ever seen, a woman running as a woman for the most powerful position of leadership in this world.  Again, what the fuck is wrong with being a woman, why the fuck did she choose to run away from it instead of embrace it?

She made many choices during this campaign and one of them was to not stop those in her campaign who planned to go the dirty, nasty route, she could have said, "no, we're better than that, we will not do the same out status quo, sorry Mark, you're too 1990s, women deserve better than you, women deserve to have their rights talked about here in this country instead of me just lauding my participation in Beijing, women want me to talk about equality and reproductive freedom, women want me to talk about universal daycare and the abuse that has gone on unabated for way too long."

"I am woman and I'm proud and that's one of the reasons I'm running for the office, because it's high time a woman who is a woman not pretending to be a man is what this country needs, what this world needs, none of us want or aspire to have a man dressed up like a woman in the White House, a change is what people want and a true change is what they're going to get with me, a woman who doesn't need to be rescued, a woman that doesn't need a husband to come to my defense, a woman who doesn't need Mark Penn to protect me especially when I'm running on being the woman next to the red phone at 3:00 am."

"To all those white men out there who just don't get it, look at the woman sitting next to you, look at how proud she is to have in her lifetime a woman standing up as a woman, look at your daughter and see the light in her eyes as she realizes the time has truly come when women can be who we are and succeed to the highest levels possible, and all of it is attainable by simply being who we are, women."

"To all of you white men listen up, the day has come when women will get the ERA passed because as the president of this country I will make sure it is done.  I will demand a law be passed so women and young girls can feel safe in their homes, that the terrorists that sit across from them at the dinner table and share their beds can no longer beat them, can no longer abuse them, can no longer kill them because the sentences are going to be much longer if they do and the justice system will start to work for women in the courtrooms across America."

"To all of you white men your days are numbered, those of you who stood behind a white president who signed a bill that has caused suffering and death across the globe, The Global Gag Rule, go take a time out because your time is over, all of you who have refused to fill birth control prescriptions, to the health care insurance companies who don't cover women's contraceptives and refuse to make men pay for Viagara, you no longer have the power of denying women the rights that should have been theirs for decades if not centuries."

"To all the state's legislatures who are attempting to put an undue burden on women who choose to have an abortion, you will not be able to because it says clearly in the Constititution, the Constitution that is yours is also the Constitution for the women of this nation, there will no longer be bans on abortion that limit access to 13% of the counties in this country, there will be federal funding for abortions for all women and young girls in this country, the TRAP laws are over, the bombing of abortion clinics is over, and the consequences you will face if you dare to ignore my words are going to be severe and harsh and long lasting."

"To all of the women in this country and around the world, our day has come, women unite because what I said in Beijing is now going to come to fruition, women's rights are human rights and I will demand that women be treated as the equals we are, I will demand that human rights are there for every woman and young girl, I will demand a new day has arisen for every single woman that makes up over half of the population of the world be treated with integrity and dignity and most of all as equals because Elizabeth Cady Stanton was right when she said these words some 160 years ago."

Among the many important questions, which have been brought before the public, there is none that more vitally affects the whole human family than that which is technically called Woman's Rights. Every allusion to the degraded and inferior position occupied by women all over the world has been met by scorn and abuse.  From the man of the highest mental cultivation to the most degraded wretch that staggers in the streets do we meet ridicule, and coarse jests, freely bestowed upon those who dare assert that woman stands by the side of man, his equal, placed her by her God, to enjoy with him the beautiful earth, which is her home as it is his, having the same sense of right and wrong, and looking to the same Being for guidance and support.  So long has man exercised tyranny over her, injurious to himself and benumbing to her faculties, that few can nerve themselves to meet the storm; and so long has the chain been about her that she knows there is no remedy.

The whole social, civil and religious condition of woman is a subject too vast to be brought within the limits of one short lecture.  Suffice it to say, for the present, wherever we turn, the history of woman is sad and dark, without any alleviating circumstances, nothing from which we can draw any consolation.

But she didn't say that did she, she didn't choose to stand up as a woman and say she is proud to be one, she chose instead to run as a man and make no mistake about it, it was her choice to make, no one forced her to make that decision and to try to scapegoat a nation or a past and try to make it such is just plain wrong, and the remorse felt is mine and so many women I know, women who I've talked with and cried with because it is so, Hillary Clinton chose to take the path she did, she chose to believe our votes were a given, she chose not to even once bring up women's rights, women's issues, she chose to talk about national security and war and ignore the millions of women in this country who live in terror and are at war with the men they share their lives with, the women who don't have to look outside their homes and worry about a foreign invader, the women whose lives have already been invaded with a fear that is constant.

She made her choices and in so doing she has set women's voices, the women who use their voices as women, back, only time will tell how far and how long, because she chose to run from being a woman instead of running as one.

She gets no sympathy from me, she demanded and she got my loathing and disdain, because I am a woman who stands proud, every single day of my life, proud to be a woman.



I will not die an unlived life. Fuck em, I will not live in fear, I will live out loud and on the record.  

Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) 1-800-787-3224 (TTY)  


I chose not to preview, so mistakes be damned n/t (7.00 / 3)


I will not die an unlived life. Fuck em, I will not live in fear, I will live out loud and on the record.  

Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) 1-800-787-3224 (TTY)  


[ Parent ]
you know what's funny? (6.67 / 3)
We were watching the Power business on the television and the spouse turned to me and protested, matter-of-factly, "But she is a monster."

And now she gets to play the aggrieved victim.



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[ Parent ]
Hillary Haters (6.50 / 4)
You don't like the way she laughs,claps,tears up,crosses her legs,wears suits even breaths.You people are pathtetic.You also know what she thinks,what she wants.what she plans for the future,so how come with all your psychic abilities you can't win the lottory.Do you care about her accomblishments,her congressional record and if you don't like it it's fair not to vote for her.Not to vote or to vote for McCain is gross stupidity.What has Barack done beside being a educated,well spoken politician.What are his accomblishments,What is his involment with Resko?I will vote for any DEM candidate,because i remember what the GOP has done to this Country and this world,are you all so brain dead you don't remember.VOTE DEM NO MATTER WHO,NO MATTER WHAT,or suffer the consequences!

Good Points Forgiven (8.00 / 4)
On another site, I read the comments of a woman who feels that when Obama holds Clinton's chair at a debate he is subtly putting her down.  The woman who turns this thing around for us is going to be someone who doesn't see old fashioned courtesy as a put down.  She is going to be a person who understands that reproductive freedom for women in this country is not just a matter of safe legal abortions;  it is also a matter of safe, legal PREGNANCIES.  The woman who turns this thing around for us is going to connect the dots between the lack of health care and education and the size of the defense budget.  The woman who finally becomes the change candidate will refuse to take money from lobbyists and will work for transparency in government.  

Oh, wow.

I just described Obama.

Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of injustice, to undo the thongs of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,and bring the homeless poor into your house;


If Bill Clinton (8.00 / 1)
If Bill Clinton can be the first black President, maybe Obama can be the first "woman" President?

From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth; from the laziness that is content with half-truths; from the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth – oh God of Truth deliver us!— Unknown The Disputed Tr

[ Parent ]
She Can't Win For Losing | 50 comments


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