Cut Off Nose, Spite Face... And We All Bleed

I cannot BELIEVE we are having this fucking argument again. (8.80 / 15)

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 12:21:54 PM CDT

wow, I should check in more often... (7.25 / 4)

Seems I've caused a...how do I put this delicately?....a shitstorm from the MSOC front?  Damn girl, I guess you are speaking to me and all of those that I'm influencing...(hmmmm....?).  Surely you aren't that upset over just my one little vote?

I'm afraid to read further...wait, let me go put on my hazmat suit first...okay, here I go....if I don't report back in 10 then just go on without me...it means I didn't make it.  (wimper)

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by: Tom P @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 16:55:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

from someone who is SO OFFENDED? (0.00 / 7)

You either believe in the civil/human rights agenda of this party or you are not part of this party. This girl has her head up her ass. I didn't read further either.  



Silence is not an option. It merely helps to perpetuate human rights injustices.

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by: shergald @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 19:42:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I like your graphic. (9.50 / 2)

See that little blue rectangle in the middle of Oregon?  That's Lane County.  Part of Rep. Peter DeFazio's district, and where I was born.

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by: cityduck @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 18:10:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

and now two cents more: (5.00 / 2)

Good morning.  This is Vince, Tom's partner.  

I walked numerous wards for Mondale, Dukakas, Clinton and Kerry.  I have lent my office to Kerry in 2004 so that his team could make phone calls to Hawaii, Nevada and Ohio.  In 2004 I traveled to Ohio and Stood in the rain from 5:00 am to 5:00 pm at the Addison Branch Public Library in Cleveland, Ohio.  I did this because I was the trained legal volunteer who made sure that voting intimdation did not take place.  And, lastly, I convinced my parents to be Democrats.  I have worked for this party and deserve to be respected by this party as much as the next person.

I do not easily decide that Barak Obama does not deserve my vote.  

First, The South Carolina Homophobic Road Show.  Barak Obama put on a fund raiser and promoted homophobic speech.  The point was to court african american church going folks who were going for Clinton until he did that.  That terrible day in October 2007 is when I was put on notice that Barak Obama did not want my vote.

Second, in April of 2008, Barak came out and said that he was against the Army's don't ask don't tell policy.  Barak wants to repeal it and allow the generals to establish their own policy.  The generals policy is what we had before: "Ask and Prohibit."

Third, Obama's "gay marriage" stance.  Yes, this is an issue, but to be honest, not "the" issue for me.  It is a wedge issue developed by Rebublicans to peel off Democratic voters.  I am not falling for it.  

My issue is being demonized by Mr. Obama's surrogate, Donnie McClurkin, so that he could wrest african american support from Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Edwards in the South Carolina Primary.  Mr. Obama has refused to acknowledge his insult and therefore refused to seek my vote.

It was Mr. Obama who left me, I am still here.  I am just sitting out his election.

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by: Tom P @ Sat Oct 04, 2008 at 09:05:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Welcome Vince (8.00 / 2)

I agree with you on all three issues. The first, I think was a severe mistake in judgement on Obama's part.

The second and third may just be political pragmatism. I really don't know.

I can't blame you if GLBT issues are a litmus test for you. They are for me too. When Francine Busby came knocking on my door a couple years ago (she ran against Brian Bilbray in CA-50, Duke Cunningham's former seat) the very first question I asked her was about gay marriage. Had she answered differently, I would not have spent a couple hundred hours walking precincts for her. So I do get it.

If I remember correctly, you guys are in California also, so there is no reason for me to even try to convince you to change your mind. We both have that luxury. And I'm not sure I have the ammunition to do so anyway.

But here's the thing. Barack Obama is not the perfect candidate on GLBT issues. I'm not sure he's the perfect candidate on women's issues either. (another of my top of the agenda issues.) Whoever is elected, it's likely he'll be working with a strong but not veto proof democratic majority in both houses of congress. So the question you must ask yourself is (specially if you were in a battleground state), if a repeal of the DOMA or the ERA was passed by congress, and ended up on the desk of the president for signature, would Obama or McCain be more likely to sign it?

For gays, for women, their supporters, and for many other people with absolute litmus test issues, this (and probably most) election(s) still comes down to pragmatism. We may not get exactly what we want. But along that full spectrum of what a politician might do related to GLBT issues, Barack Obama comes down much closer to your end of that spectrum than John McCain does. And sometimes closer to perfect is the very best you can get.

Again, welcome to MLW. Now get your own name and jump right in.  

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

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by: Kane in CA @ Sat Oct 04, 2008 at 13:31:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Learn to listen, people (7.60 / 10)

Listen to what Biden actually said:

IFILL: Let's try to avoid nuance, Senator. Do you support gay marriage?

BIDEN: No. Barack Obama nor I support redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage. We do not support that. That is basically the decision to be able to be able to be left to faiths and people who practice their faiths the determination what you call it.

The bottom line though is, and I'm glad to hear the governor, I take her at her word, obviously, that she think there should be no civil rights distinction, none whatsoever, between a committed gay couple and a committed heterosexual couple. If that's the case, we really don't have a difference.

In other words- put "marriage" where it belongs, in church, and keep licenses and the government where it belongs, in individual rights.  It is, if you are willing to control knee-jerk reactions long enough to think, the PERFECT answer.  The bad guys are only able to turn this into an issue by conflating the religious ceremony with the granting of rights. Separate them out, and the fight is OVER.

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by: Zok Tok @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 12:42:12 PM CDT

But that's not what happens (6.00 / 1)

When you go to the clerk's office (or so I'm told, because I avoid that place like the plague), you get a "marriage license."  And even if a justice of the peace officiates, he is officiating at a "marriage."  The government is already in the marriage game.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

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by: Paul in San Francisco @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 13:34:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You are correct (6.75 / 4)

and the government should get out of the marriage game, and into just the licensing game. Then the whole debate unravels.

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by: Zok Tok @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 14:09:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

but they aren't, Blanch... (0.00 / 0)

shoulda, woulda, coulda, we gotta play with the cards we have now.

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by: Tom P @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 16:56:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

except (9.00 / 1)

he didn't say get government out of it, he still believes in the government calling one institution "marriage"... separate from equal.

If they would say, "government should get out of the marriage business and define civil union and be done with it"... then that would be fine.  But they don't, and when pressed, Biden and Palin agreed on only one thing... "no, I don't support gay marriage", which is to say, a word is more important than civil rights.  If it means something to them to say they don't support gay marriage, then I take them at their word that it means something that they don't.  They can get out of this if they take the next step and say government should only classify civil union.


-pyrrho-

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by: pyrrho @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 15:45:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Arroz by any other name (3.50 / 2)

It's just not time to throw the rice, yet. I have to agree with MSOC that this is neither the time nor place to fight this battle. The semantic differences between "marriage" and "civil union" are so blurry as to be nearly indefinable, if not indistinguishable - that's obviously not the case with the gut-level emotional distinction.  Unfortunately that gut-level emotional distinction is irretrievably tied to religious institutions, and has been incorporated into the legal distinction that clearly violates fundamental principles of separation of church and state. In fact, every legitimate marriage in the country IS, by definition, a civil union resulting from the concept of "by the power vested in me by the state of . . . ," usually proclaimed outright by the presiding official, whether he/she is a clergyperson or a justice of the peace or an Elvis impersonator in Vegas.  If the anti-gay-marriage advocates would agree to rename their concept of marriage to a more apt description accurately reflecting their faith based exclusivity (say, call it "holy matrimony conceived in heaven and bound together for all your living days - don't even think about committing adultery or getting a divorce, Jack"), then maybe the pro-gay-marriage advocates would be satisfied with a religion neutral definition of civil unions that applies to both hetero and homesexual couples who are not necessarily willing to commit to a lifelong union without possibility of relief, under penalty of eternal damnation. Can we just wipe the word marriage out of the lexicon, except for references to chocolate and peanut butter?

True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country. ~Kurt Vonnegut

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by: Sanity Clause @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 21:01:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

gut reaction (0.00 / 0)

A lot of people will grant the Politician understanding in the form of assuming THE POLITICIAN has the right instinct, but is just pandering.

NO, I think Biden has that gut instinct himself, and I'll judge him on it.

-pyrrho-

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by: pyrrho @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 21:08:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Same Type of Mentality... (6.00 / 1)

That drives the peckerwoods who are economically harmed to goosestep to their polling places every election and vote against their own self interests in a perceived war against the elite who they are just too fucking dumb to understand are the ones running their party.

Selfish and ignorant really and it only drags the rest of us down with them.

They will be high fiving over the triumph of the Klondike Cretin in last night's 'debate' of the soft bigotry of low expectations all the way till November 4th and now that Congress has caved in as usual to save Wall Street and take the imploding economy out of the headlines in favor of the standard fusillade of race baiting, fear mongering and slander the aggrieved type who want to make a futile and stupid gesture over the gay marriage garbage sideshow are going to put the Hockey Mom in the White House.

But Duh-merika always has had this thing for these dumbassed white nigger type of sitcom families don't it?

Idiocracy is HERE!

Just my two cents

EE

"Every Decent Man Is Ashamed Of The Government He Lives Under"-H.L. Mencken

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by: ed_encho @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 12:49:35 PM CDT

Me? (7.75 / 4)

I'll be sticking with the candidate who has spoken out against the Defense of Marriage Act; the one who have it repealed. That would be Barack Obama.

For my entire career in public life, I have brought the message of GLBT equality to skeptical audiences as well as friendly ones. No other leading candidate in the race for the Presidency has demonstrated the same commitment to the principle of full equality.

I support the full and unqualified repeal of the federal Defense of Marriage Act. While some say we should repeal only part of the law, I believe we should get rid of that statute altogether. Federal law should not discriminate in any way against gay and lesbian couples.

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

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by: Curmudgette @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 13:13:17 PM CDT

I saw the debate on CNN online and... (6.00 / 2)

was surprised that Obama/Biden doesn't support the definition of a gay marriage being a "marriage." But I totally get your point MSOC...

Being bi myself I agree this should only be one issue, and that people should not allow their feelings to let themselves become, essentially, a single-issue voter (or in some people's cases, someone who abstains to show some sort of "righteous indignation.")

Red Highways

ouhite

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by: ouhite @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 13:23:42 PM CDT

Right on MSOC (2.33 / 3)

Joe did a fabulous job of taking this particular issue right off the table if everybody would just have the grace and presence of mind to shut the fuck up and move along. What are these people thinking about? I can't believe after all this and after all we've been through and after all of the innocent Iraqi and American blood that has been shed because of The Third Party candidacy of Ralph Nader in the year 2000, that somebody of the liberal persuasion could even think about not supporting Barack Obama on November 4th. Wake up you asshole. This has absolutely nothing to do with Marriage-- gay, straight or otherwise. Please! It has everything to do with the survival of the planet and certainly with the future direction of our fragile experiment in democracy. Don't be stupid.  

The Whole American Hog
: Commentary and Analysis by O'Neal Compton

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by: bocotton stormfield @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 13:41:28 PM CDT

The Candidates are Human Refuse (5.00 / 3)

Joe Biden is such an awful man...

He's running for VP and he thinks Franklin D. Roosevelt Got on TV during the Stock Market Crash to tell the American ...whatever they are... Peepull....

That's like a baseball player saying Ken Griffey Jr. was the first black player in the history of baseball....

Or a musician saying Eric Clapton started out playing with Dizzie Gillespie....

It's outrageous....

He doesn't know the simple history of the Presidency and is obviously ignorant of American history and can't imagine when TV was invented....

This is the kind of garbage that you have running for the Presidency....You have a moronic sadistic war criminal Bush followed by Palin and Ignorant Mccain and an Obama who sells out his intelligence.

These people are the lowest form of life on the planet.

Elect a snickers bar president...we'll be better off.

Frankly I think the congress and the candidates should be put before a tribunal for war crimes and corruption and many sent to jail.

Not kidding

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 14:28:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hey, Stu! (7.33 / 3)

What's YOUR solution?

Lemme have it. I really, really want to know if you have ANY viable solutions for the problems we face, other than to bitch and fucking moan about how what we've got sucks and wouldn't it be MUCH better if we could have something else.

WHAT'S YOUR SOLUTION?

(And if you answer voting third party, I will have to conclude that you have officially donated your brain to science pre-mortem.)

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 14:30:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

well (8.50 / 2)

if you are a slave, and the plantation owner gives you two bad options to choose... don't stop complaining about both, even if you chose the one less bad from your point of view.

and if you can, RUN!

-pyrrho-

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by: pyrrho @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 15:47:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

MSOC (0.00 / 0)

The solution is to kill the plantation owner and escape.

That's the solution.

In this case it's to kill the Democrats and Republicans by not voting for them.

That's MY SOLUTION.

It's also to call Obama the conservative that he admits to being.

To admit or realize he's pro war.

I'm against war

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 20:47:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I mean this with all the love in my heart (0.00 / 0)

if everybody would just have the grace and presence of mind to shut the fuck up and move along

Go fuck yourself, asshole. I don't give a shit if you sleep with men, women or muppets, you don't get to tell me what I have a right to be pissed off about - especially not when you're talking about MY FUCKING LIFE.

Now, that said, I have every intention of voting for Obama, but NOT because of his tepid bullshit you're-almost-but-not-quite-as-good-as-me-so-I'll-throw-you-a-bone support for my almost-but-not-quite equal rights. I'm voting for him in SPITE of his constant, irritating and maddening parrot-speak "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman" right wing meme. It's just a goddamned good thing he shut the fuck up and stopped with that particular line of horseshit or I might not have voted for his ugly, bigoted ass.

No, I'm not a single-issue voter. I can't begin to count the number of times I've voted to protect - not myself because there's been fuck-all in choices for that - but people I don't know, don't see and don't have any reason but basic fucking human decency to want to protect. Sitting in my gated community, with my cars and my 50" plasma in my master bedroom and my satellite television and my 40" flat-panel LCD that I bought for the guest room, and my two laptops (because having just one is so inconvenient) and the desktop that I keep up in the office, I vote to protect the poor. I go to city council meetings to argue against "redevelopment of the blighted areas" because all that bullshit is is code for "run the poor out of town so we don't have to be offended by their squalor". But right now, I'm married. Right now, I am so fucking close to equal. And right now I could lose it all while that douchebag wandered around my state and the rest of the country talking like fucking Pat Robertson. "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman." He could have been a paid spokesman for "Yes on 8", and he gave aid and comfort to all the closet bigots.
Well, I'm not prejudiced, but voting to pass 8 can't be bad - after all, even Obama doesn't agree with letting them get married.

Pissed off? You haven't the first fucking clue how pissed off I am. Fucking douchebag asswipe that he is. But I'll once again eat shit and vote for the person who isn't just not supporting my equal rights, he's doing his level fucking best to see that I don't have them. SEPARATE IS NOT EQUAL.

Don't fucking lecture me about grace and presence of mind. I'm in no fucking mood to put up with it.

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by: Upwardly Mobile @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 21:06:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

War....Stop the War...not with McCain or Obombah (3.00 / 3)

I think gay marriage is almost utterly irrelevant.

They are against it but people who are gay and want to get married will vote for them anyway...

The real point is....THE WAR....people are being killed...

Secondly the ECONOMY....you are going to lose everything voting for either of these two McCain or Obamah

War and Economy problems are connected.

Nobody is blaming Bush for anything ....WHY?

because they are in league with him...McCain and Obama....they are going to continue his policies....that's what they say...

More War
More Protection for Israel
More Capitlism in the form of Bailouts which result in theft of your pension and social security etc.
More Money for the Military
More State Security

Somewhere way down the list would be things like Gay this and Gay that.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 14:20:54 PM CDT

HOW? (6.50 / 2)

You sound... EXACTLY like Sarah Palin and John McCain.

Acknowledge all the problems and loudly proclaim what needs to be done -- and don't offer ONE FUCKING IDEA as to HOW it can get done.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 14:31:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

lady (4.00 / 1)

let's start a weekly video log, we can use skype or one of the various tools now that will record conversations... come on, now till November, then beyond.

-pyrrho-

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by: pyrrho @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 15:48:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ideas (0.00 / 0)

Your the one voting in their direction....Toward McCain and Palin not me...

I'm voting toward what you verbally embrace...My LEft Wing....

I'm going toward the left...your moving to the right with Obama...

You can vote for Nader or McKinney...that's an idea...

You can say your against the bailout...that's an idea...

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 20:33:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Stu just for you :o) (11.00 / 2)

It is a matter of life and death, see the documentary Food INC and vote no to corporate take over of our food every time you buy groceries  

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by: Kathleen @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 14:36:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I disagree with you, MSOC, especially the very title of this thread. Here's why: (4.50 / 2)

One doesn't have to like, approve of and defend the John McCain/Sarah Palin ticket (and I certainly don't) to realize that if John McCain does get in, it will be because the majority of Americans want him.  That being said, first of all, I think Stu and  Tom P have some legitimate points.  Secondly,  espousing this kind of condescending, insulting and patronizing manner towards people who openly differ with you  and the general feeling of superiority at their expense doesn't help one little bit, and, in fact, can be and is quite hurtful.  This kind of attitude, imho, is precisely what has helped drive many of the blue-collar white ethnics, both Northern and Southern alike away from the Democratic Party and  into the arms of Republicans,  which, in turn, has much to do with why the Democrats have been unable to elect a President for almost 40 years.  It's also the kind of attitude that drove many of  Boston's white workingclass into the arms of demogogues such as the late Boston School Committeewoman Louise Day Hicks and all her cronies on the Boston School Committee who pitted two vulnerable groups--i. e. the white working class and the blacks--against each other and resulted in the implentation of poorly designed, poorly implemented policies (mandated school busing) that exacerbated age-old, pre-existing racial/ethnic and class tensions in Boston...by a lot.  Things aren't a whole lot beter today, either, frankly , but that's another issue.  Fourth:  The Democrats have edged closer to the Republicans in the past 40 years, which hasn't helped either.   Lastly, to reiterate my opinion, no matter who gets in, we're furthur screwed.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

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by: independentminded @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 14:46:50 PM CDT

But in this case (7.00 / 1)

I wasn't offended or anything because I do think MSOC is just using her trademark rant style and actually I was smiling as I read it. I can picture her writing it!

I was expecting worse when I started reading this...some people get it a little at least.  Yeah, I know I'm crazy and not going along with the crowd, ...but what's new??

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by: Tom P @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 17:17:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You are astute, my friend. (5.00 / 1)

Hence the use of the term "my friend" in the text.

Hey, credit yourself with jolting me out of my heat-induced writer's block.

: )

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 19:35:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I am shocked -- SHOCKED -- to find YOU disagree with me... (7.50 / 6)

And find my style unappealing.

Consider my gast flabbered.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 19:32:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

joke (6.00 / 2)

saying that they would support gay marraige is like saying they will legalize weed. it's a death sentence. what gets me is that gay people don't even have workplace protection in allot of places and every fucking time an election rolls around, it's all about gay marraige.  

Sadie Yates
RIP
2003-2008

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by: Sadie Yates @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 15:38:12 PM CDT

death (0.00 / 0)

yeah, but opposing the war was "death"... when you go into death and survive, the result is "invulnerability".

But even without supporting gay marriage Biden could refuse to say he doesn't support it... he can say "it's not a question, the question is civil rights... and same sex couples deserve them."

as a catholic he's free to add "personally, I take marriage as defined in my faith, the Catholic Church says who is 'married' and that definition doesn't include same sex couples (because we like this particular bigotry)... but that is the business of a religion, not of state government.  Government needs to protect the civil rights of partners, and that's what I support."


-pyrrho-

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by: pyrrho @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 15:51:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Somebody mention weed? (9.00 / 3)

POINT ME TO THE BALLOT!!!

Lord, what I wouldn't give for some hemp chads.... ya know?

Town Called Dobson: Blue Life in Red America, A Daily Political Cartoon

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by: stormbear @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 19:32:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sadie, (8.00 / 3)

what slays me is that in the 70s conservatives were screaming up and down about how promiscuous gay people were and now, as that generation is settling down, conservatives scream up and down about how they want to marry, settle down.

I find this ironic, hypocritical, and vicious.  




Lord of the Karmafishes

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by: Karmafish @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 23:23:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

excellent points (5.00 / 1)

really.

Sadie Yates
RIP
2003-2008

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by: Sadie Yates @ Sat Oct 04, 2008 at 08:37:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

which is why they won't make... (6.00 / 2)

... an IRV system.

The ONLY WAY to make a WINNING national party support IRV or similar is if they have LOST ELECTIONS because of not having it... then they have to be bright enough to remember that past loss.

Democrats, for example, are fucking idiots for not INSISTING on IRV... they would win elections with it, when they get in power, they have to push it like it matter, NO MATTER WHAT PEOPLE SAY... no matter if it seems weak politically, in the long run people will love the ability to vote for Nader and still vote for Gore before Bush.

There is no other way.

Is it worth McCain to teach them this... maybe not, but the decisions are getting worse and worse for some reason... namely, it's in their best interest to give us sucky options to be frightened of.

-pyrrho-

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by: pyrrho @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 15:42:34 PM CDT

Third (or is that "thud," or "turd") parties (6.00 / 1)

ain't gonna happen unless you get Congress to move first to some sort of proportional representation scheme first.  Eliminate the arbitrary gerrymandering of all those incumbents and give each "successful" party a percentage share of the single issue Congress critters in their state and you're halfway there.  But when is that ever gonna happen?  Perhaps when the various factions of the Republicons discover that they've ALL been had by the neocons?  I certainly would have expected the Dems to splinter apart before the GOP, but the economic crisis now has rabid "family values" types like Sarah Palin biting the very hands that feed on her - greed is, after all, the essential opiate of the trickle down scam.

Then again, maybe this is the right year to look for wholesale liquidation sales from the two-party stranglehold of failed politics and policies (Christian-Democrats for sale at 3 for a dollar; day-old Greens reduced for quick sale before self-composting, Social-Democrats veering off to the left for the blue-light special; Labor-ites struggling to raise the minimum wage while still finding sub-minimum jobs for illegal immigrants - to say nothing of the Right to Breed Like Rabbit folks condemning the greed and corrruption of the Christo-Fascist Republicons who are wooing Ann Coulter away from their kinder, gentler side, the Spanish Inquisition).

True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country. ~Kurt Vonnegut

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by: Sanity Clause @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 17:11:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Keep at it Kid (9.00 / 1)

I applaud your stand and your courage and the heart that forces you to take it.

Heaven or hell baby, I hope we end up close enough to knock back a couple and share a laugh.

The old guy

Bob Higgins Worldwide Sawdust

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by: BobHiggins @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 16:02:27 PM CDT

Right Now It Looks Like (6.67 / 3)

Small numbers of people not voting for one of the presidential candidates is tantamount to a vote for Obama.  Right now.  But it will tighten before November rolls around.  Don't ask me why but some folks are indecisive.

This whole "gay marriage outrage" seems very much like the way Republicans played the Mary Cheney comment that Kerry made in 2004.  Guess what, a significant number of gays fell for it and did not vote for Kerry because he was beating up on poor defenseless Mary Cheney.

Now is not the time to long for a real alternative between McCain and Obama.  It is too late to create an effective third party for 2008--but not for 2012 or 2016.  The magic number to win by then will have grown to 75 million voters.

Nader now has the problem that he is two years older (74) than John McCain.  Nostalgia sometimes has to end.

Also, notice the math lesson in my sig.  Obama has, which is why he is giving McCain the heebie-jeebies about Indiana and North Dakota.

Want a third party -- 50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts -- Go get 'em

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by: TarheelDem @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 17:15:27 PM CDT

Well... (7.25 / 4)

while I basically agree that this election is too important to make a protest vote (or non-vote) over a single issue, I'm not sure it's fair to impose your standards of what qualifies as a deal-breaker on someone else.  Would you feel differently if Obama was virulently pro-life, or an ardent supporter of the Iraq war?  Everybody draws their lines in the sand with respect to certain issues.  It is up to each person to draw his or her own line where they see fit.

I have drawn the same line as Tom P when it comes my local congressional race.  I will not vote for the Democrat because he believes "marriage is between a man and a woman."  If that costs him the election (Not likely, Esch will probably lose no matter what.  All the more reason he should act like a true leader and come out in favor of equality for all.) I can live with it.  In the grand scheme of things, I don't suppose it makes much difference who represents Nebraska's 2nd Congressional District. I cannot, however, abide four more years of Republican rule. so, I let my principles slide a bit.


Only solitary men know the full joys of friendship. Others have their family; but to a solitary and an exile, his friends are everything. - Willa Cather

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by: billybush @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 18:49:19 PM CDT

The Dims just "bought" the Financial crisis. Congrats..."We" now own it. (6.00 / 1)

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

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by: konopelli @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 18:57:08 PM CDT

Yes Konopelli....leaving nothing to oppose (4.00 / 1)

Yes knopelli and they bought the war, ...so they can't oppose the Republicans on anything.

They don't oppose the Republicans

That's why they don't REALLY criticize George Bush....they are FOR his politics.

It's purely insane.

It's twisted and perverse ...and people are accepting of all of it.

Sick

Doesn't anybody notice that the Democrats are not opposed to anything of substance that Bush, McCain are for...

That's why I keep saying your "liberals" are conservative and you support the coming Oligarchy and fascism that is coming right to your doorstep.

They are now STEALING YOUR MONEY, or whatever
standard of living you have and YOU are voting for THEM...encouraging them to lower your standard of living.

It's not just about MONEY...it's about YOUR STANDARD OF LIVING....YOUR ENVIORNMENT....Your streets, roads, schools, public services....ALL REDUCED ...Because YOU vote for People like Obama and McCain and their "BAILOUT".

Stu Piddy....a free range human

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by: Stu Piddy @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 20:44:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

MSOC (6.00 / 1)

I'm having a problem with this diary. I know the spirit you intended, and I know that you support basic and total equality. That's not the issue.

While I am voting for the asshole, I fully understand why someone else might not be able to bring themselves to do it. And if Obama loses because he pissed off too many LGBTs, it won't be the LGBT's fault - it'll be his.

I'll grant you, saying he supported equal marriage rights would have been political suicide. So what was the alternative? How about saying "You know, with all the issues facing this country I just don't believe we should get bogged down in hypothetical personal choices. Now do you have a question about the war, the economy, civil liberties?" But no, instead he chose to adopt the exact same word for word meme that gets thrown out by the right wing. He pandered to them. He invited rabidly anti-gay bigots to share the stage with him. He did everything but stand on his head and eat a bug to say "I'm not down with the homos."

If he stays out of the White House because he went too far with his pandering to the fundies, that's his fault.

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by: Upwardly Mobile @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 21:26:56 PM CDT

What do you want? (0.00 / 0)

A rash Clinton approach to suck up to the LGBT community that backfired? More gays were kicked out the military after 'Don't ask, Don't tell' than before.

Clinton was trying to score political points and not build a political base to actually accomplish what he wanted. It backfired for gays, yet they gave him credit for some odd reason.

I have a friend who had been working the gays in the military issue, and he was really pissed at Clinton. He was a bit more based on reality and he wanted it done right.

I'm sorry that reality sucks.

But do you want the Republicans who use it a political issue every four years, while doing nothing about, or a Democrat who will push for civil unions and quietly encourage gay marriage in states that have progressed enough to accept it.

It sure as hell would cause a shit-storm down here in Georgia. Had Biden said he was for it, there would have been hundreds of hours of right-wing hate radio with free soundbites to further their hatred.

I'm sorry that reality sucks.

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by: MickT @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 22:29:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I want (0.00 / 0)

you to back to fuck up and stay the hell out of my face. Clear enough for you? You don't get a say in it. I get to be pissed off about whatever the hell I want to be pissed off about.

And so does everyone else. If someone can't bring themselves to swallow shit and vote for this douchebag, that's their deal - and it's NOT THEIR FAULT if he doesn't get into the White House. It's his for being a pandering douchebag in the first place.

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by: Upwardly Mobile @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 23:24:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I got very turned off to Obama when he capitulated to and voted for the FISA bill. (0.00 / 0)

Imho, anybody, regardless of who he or she is, who'd throw our Constitution under the bus just to save their own hide, doesn't deserve to get elected dog-catcher, much less POTUS.  

Also, if that electorate map of the United States is any indication, the country is mosty red, anyway.  Not a good omen for any Democratic Presidential Candidate, let alone Barack Obama.

My out and out honest  appraisal of both candidates:  Both Candidates make me want to puke.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

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by: independentminded @ Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 23:44:42 PM CDT