Gaza's Eyes to Cry With

Jeff Huber's Tip Jar (8.71 / 7)

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 10:39:02 AM CST

Making the rubble bounce (6.00 / 1)

is how one honest reporter put it yesterday concerning what the Israelis are up to at this point in Gaza.  Actually, the Israeli plan has four parts.  We've already seen parts one and two.  Part three is close in hand-to-hand urban fighting and part four is the reoccupation of Gaza.  The Israelis have been lying, well, forever and the USA has been sanctioning those lies for at least 40 years.  Isn't it time for a change?  Peace

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by: imhotep @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 10:54:26 AM CST

Way past time, IMHOTEP. nt (6.00 / 1)

Commander Jeff Huber, U.S. Navy (Retired) writes from Virginia. Read his weekday commentaries at Pen and Sword and ePluribus Media.

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by: Jeff Huber @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 11:21:50 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, (2.00 / 3)

you've just tossed away any credibility that you may have possessed. And while there are a number of things that I take issue with here, the most important one is this:

There you have the difference between the U.N., the Catholic Church and the U.S. Congress; the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) doesn't own the U.N. or the Catholic Church.

All Hail ZOG!

Y'know, it used to be that paranoid anti-Israel/anti-Jewish conspiracy theories concerning Jewish domination of the US government was limited to right-wing White Supremacists like William Luther Pierce who wrote The Turner Diaries under the pseudonym "Andrew Macdonald."  Not no more!  Now we have alleged left-wingers peddling the same sort of insidious nonsense that the Nazis believed in.

What a shame.
   




Lord of the Karmafishes

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by: Karmafish @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 11:47:30 AM CST

Do you really and truly disbelieve... (7.50 / 2)

...that AIPAC and the Israeli dominated AEI and other neocon think tanks have out foreign policy in a choke hold?

That's truly sad.  

Jeff

Commander Jeff Huber, U.S. Navy (Retired) writes from Virginia. Read his weekday commentaries at Pen and Sword and ePluribus Media.

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by: Jeff Huber @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 12:05:50 PM CST

[ Parent ]

So, you must also believe (1.50 / 2)

that the US went to war in Iraq at the behest of Israeli/Jewish interests?

Is that it?




Lord of the Karmafishes

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by: Karmafish @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 12:11:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

AIPAC (5.50 / 2)

Does AIPAC really represent Israeli/Jewish interests?

Or the interests of a subset  of Israeli political parties and US citizens (Jewish or otherwise) who are their allies?

It seems to me that the Gaza invasion has been the death of nuance.

Want a third party -- 50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts -- Go get 'em

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by: TarheelDem @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 13:07:54 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, I'm pretty sure that AIPAC (0.00 / 1)

represents various interests and views, even competing interests and views, but in the public mind AIPAC is the Israel/Jewish lobby.

Thus to suggest that the US government is owned and controlled by AIPAC is to suggest that it is owned and controlled by Israeli/Jewish interests, thus, ZOG.

This is apparently what Huber believes... and we've seen this before.

It's right out of the Protocols, after all.




Lord of the Karmafishes

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by: Karmafish @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 13:36:43 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Are there factual inaccuracies here? (0.00 / 0)

Or are you upset about implications?

I am truly confused about the fury being unleashed here.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:36:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Absolutely (3.00 / 2)

To claim AIPAC 'bought' our government is nonsense.  Do the views that AIPAC holds generally get more traction than other groups? Sure, but it's because 1) most elected officials already ascribe to those beliefs on the situation and 2) there has not been a counterbalance to AIPAC from either a pro-peace/pro-Palestinian group.  Why? I'd say, in part, because of rhetoric like this.

You have to sell something people want and this demonstrably false and highly suspect rhetoric isn't it.

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by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:40:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

pigs squeal (0.00 / 3)

when they're stuck.

What's confusing about that?

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

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by: Deward Hastings @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:51:44 PM CST

[ Parent ]

MSOC. (1.00 / 2)

I just do not know what to say to you.

You are a strong-hearted and smart woman, but you just don't seem to get what is obvious to Jewish people or anyone who is plugged into obvious anti-Jewish sentiments.

You are definitely not alone in that.

It does make me sad, tho.  

Jeff wrote the following:

There you have the difference between the U.N., the Catholic Church and the U.S. Congress; the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) doesn't own the U.N. or the Catholic Church.

The obvious implication is that AIPAC "owns" the US government.

It's not even really an implication, it's his claim.

If you were to pick up a book on the history of anti-Semitism you would find that this view has a long history.  The idea that Jews control various governments, or that they are unpatriotic, has been standard fair for centuries.

The rise of Nazi Germany was based partly on this idea.  

And, of course, you might look into the Dreyfus Affair.  

And The Protocols of the Elders of Zion presents this as its theme.

I honestly feel sick.

What is happening now in Gaza is horrific and it fucking scares me that allegedly responsible individuals like Huber repeat a meme that has led to millions of Jewish deaths.

I do not know what to do.

I do not know what to say, but please excuse because I CANNOT write a QoTD.

I cannot.

Lord of the Karmafishes

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by: Karmafish @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 23:29:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

reality (0.00 / 0)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

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by: Deward Hastings @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 04:38:31 AM CST

[ Parent ]

There are factual inaccuracies here (5.75 / 4)

in fact, more than factual inaccuracies, actual knowing falsehoods that echo of millenia of slurs.

There you have the difference between the U.N., the Catholic Church and the U.S. Congress; the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) doesn't own the U.N. or the Catholic Church.    

Here is a little bit of Wiki on the whole concept of "ZOG," the idea that any given government is actually a puppet controlled by Jews.  You usually find such things coming out of White Supremacist sites, not progressive ones.

If you are really interested, you can find a great deal about ZOG on Jew Watch, and no, I won't link that filth.  

Henry Ford pushed the myth of Jews pulling the puppet strings in "The International Jew," theorizing that the Jews "behind" Tamany were actually running the country from there:

The outcry against Tammany seemed to be hushed the moment that Tammanypatronage fell into the hands of the New York Jews, where it now remains,the Kehillah being the real political center, and Tammany but a distributingstation - a sort of "Gentile front" for the more powerful Kehillah.The Judaization of Tammany is now complete, for the Irish element has beenovercome by Jewish money.

Tammany was one of the strongest political organizations ever seen inthe United States. Potent not only in municipal and state politics, butoften exercising a decisive influence on national affairs. It was, withoutexaggeration, unequaled in any country in the world.

If there is one quality that attracts Jews, it is power. Wherever theseat of power may be, thither they swarm obsequiously. As Tammany was powerand the gate of power, it was natural that the Jews of the biggest Jewishcity in the world should court it. Doubtless, they were also affected bythe incongruity of the fact that in the biggest Jewish city, the most solidpolitical power was non-Jewish. When the German Jewish banker, Schoenberg,went to America under the name of August Belmont to represent the interestsof the Rothschilds, his keen eye at once took in the situation. He becamea member and supporter of Tammany. It was good business for this Jewishbanker, because the funds of the Rothschilds were heavily invested in NewYork transport. The properties of city tractions are, as in all Americancities, at the mercy of the local Tammany power, by whatever name it maybe known. Belmont eventually attained the coveted eminence of Grand Sachemof the Tammany Society. Belmont-Schoenberg opened the way for the rest ofthe Jews; the Freedman's, Untermeyer's, Straus's; financiers, lawyers, politicians,business men and union sharks. There soon followed the wholesale appointmentof Jews to the judiciary of New York until New York became a political andlegal Jewish preserve; and onwards to the Supreme Court where Jewish influencenever looked back since the now distant day of the Jewish capture of TammanyHall.

The idea is also found in "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," a fraudulent Czarist propaganda tract of pure anti-Semitism:

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes."

Those personages, of course, were Jews.

You can also find it in "Mein Kampf."

Hitler describes the struggle for world domination as an ongoing racial, cultural, and political battle between Aryans and Jews. He outlines his thoughts in detail, accusing the Jews of conducting an international conspiracy to control world finances, controlling the press, inventing liberal democracy as wells as Marxism, promoting prostitution and vice, and using culture to spread disharmony.

Is Mr. Huber taking his news from the New York Times, or David Duke?  David Duke's site has this headline:

You Want Proof of the Zionist Control of Congress - Here it is!

Jews do not own, or control, the United States government.  We don't use secret Jewish money, or have secret Jewish banks, or put subliminal messages in our Jewish Hollywood movies, or anything of the sort.  Even AIPAC, that bogeyman of liberals everywhere, is nothing more than a very public lobbying group, far more similar (and frankly, less powerful) to the NEA or the NRA than to any mysterious underground ZOG.

The very idea that I would need to explain such a thing is profoundly disturbing.  But at least Mr. Huber has now shown his true colors, and everything he write can be judged through the lens of his bias.

Finally, to answer 'why the fury,' the response is simple.  The "ZOG" accusations are not innocent or accidental.  They are made to further marginalize Jews, to make them the enemy, to justify eviction, execution, and eradication.  We respond rather testily when we see the same thing happening again and again.  Understand, please, before anybody says "not here," that Germany was probably the BEST place to be a Jew prior to Hitler's rise to power. Anybody who thinks 'it can't happen here' is a fool.  Anybody who thinks odds of it happening here don't INCREASE when the far left and the far right find anti-Semitism to be a comfortable common ground is either kidding themselves or secretly hoping it happens.

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by: Zok Tok @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 09:45:23 AM CST

[ Parent ]

"Gideon's Spies: The Secret History of the Mossad" (2.50 / 2)

to those passers-by who read books (that is, to the odd person stumbling into this  thread,)

Gideon's Spies: The Secret History of the Mossad

http://www.abebooks.com/servle...

 by Gordon Thomas,

 Published in 16 languages; if you read books, one of the languages is probably yours.

  Here are rich details on much of the elaborate propaganda work which Israelis---people in and out of government, officials and non-officials---as well as Jews around the world and their non-Jewish sympathizers in their efforts to mold a favorable image of Israel and Israeli government policies.

 Once you've read this book, you'll no longer question the matter of whether there is an very elaborate and sophisticated propaganda and public relations campaign, aimed at mass publics everywhere and very much directed and coordinated from Israel.  You'll know not only what is and has long been done but also a wealth about how it's done and by whom.

 You'll learn the commonly used lexicon of this trade, what those who are Jewish participants are referred to as and what non-Jewish helpers, propagandists are called, how they're systematically recruited and managed, how they're compensated for their work, etc.

  You learn of celebrated and notorious examples in the history of Israeli propaganda work, of editors, journalists, spies, businessmen and women and ordinary people who've offered or been persuaded to use their influence to disinform, distort and in every way possible thwart the arrival of an accurate public understanding of Israeli aims and interests, so that something truly hideous and foul is made, instead, to seem as nearly as is possible in the face of grotesque facts which cry out, something good and decent.

  Anyone who denies that there's an enormous and utterly dishonest program of public disinformation and that it's operated by and for the interests of Israeli official authority is either a damn fool who doesn't know what he's talking about or someone who is himself or herself part and parcel (on his own initiative or as a recruited operative) of the propaganda effort.

  Once you've read this book, you'll be well informed, aware and armed against such people and their tactics.

 

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.

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by: proximity1 @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 11:22:10 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The "Protocols" updated (3.67 / 3)

See here for a short list of falsities contained therein. And the conclusion:

What the surface reasonableness of Gideon's Spies serves to mask, however, is the extent to which Thomas, exactly like every other conspiracy theorist, seeks to persuade us that political realities are the opposite of what we know to be the truth (for instance, that Israel's Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir was a "virulent" anti-American who would "do anything" to reduce Washington's influence in the world). In this crucial sense, Gideon's Spies fits not only into the recent genre of books about the Mossad but into a vast, two-century-old literature promoting the idea of a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world. Pseudo-factual writings of this sort may look risible, but they are not. To the contrary, they form a necessary background to retaliatory action against those identified as the guilty party.

Thus, the late-19th-century florescence of writing about a Jewish world conspiracy, culminating in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, laid the basis for the later Nazi assault against the Jews just as surely as Communist literature targeting the bourgeoisie laid the groundwork for the terror-to-come of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, or the anti-Kurd spoutings of Saddam Hussein's regime prepared the way for genocide in the north of Iraq. If conspiracist tracts of this nature cannot be entirely discredited, it is nevertheless of critical importance that they be exposed and denounced. At the very least, one can thereby hope to minimize the damage they are likely to do.

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

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by: Kane in CA @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 11:47:50 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Do you really think any morally-alive person living today ... (1.20 / 5)

needs any acquaintance with The Protocols of Zion in order to feel a deep and abiding loathing for conventional Jewish thought and behavior as they are currently exemplified in Israeli and other Jews' overwhelming popular support for the atrocities now going on in Gaza--or the similar decades of atrocities since 1967, or earlier, which they echo?

  I can't think of another subset of humanity which having such a spectacular part in the commission or support of the atrocities practiced by Israel, then go on to condemn their critics as motivated by racial bigotry.

 Your boiler-plate dismissal of the Thomas book doesn't surprise me.  Nor would it surprise me if you refused to confirm that you haven't bothered to read this book.

 To his credit, at least, I suppose that Pipes has read it.  

 I also accept that it contains inaccuracies--since Thomas is a journalist and presents himself as such and no non-fiction book of its length ever appears without some errors.

  Still, what you have not done and cannot do is impeach the general thrust of Thomas points---namely, in this instance, that there is indeed, a very large and coordinated propaganda effort which Israel operates and that it includes all the kinds of efforts mentioned, as well as systematic efforts to bully, threaten, cajole, intice, and by all means above and below board, gain the acquiescence---voluntary or involuntary---of governments, institutions and individuals around the world in presenting or accepting the presentation of the kind of image which suits Israel's aims and designs---though that requires implicit or explicit distortion of the most grotesque kind of innumerable contrary truths and facts.

  For the work you contribute, Kane, if you aren't in the pay of Israel's murderous leadership, well, you're not getting your due.

 

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.

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by: proximity1 @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 12:11:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

How's that child molesting going? (2.00 / 3)

And what you have not done, and I suspect you cannot do, is impeach the evidence that you're a child molester.

What, indeed, do you know about "conventional Jewish thought"?  I've attended thousands of religious services, heard well over a thousand sermons, from at least a dozen different traditions, in at least 8 countries and 10 different states. Read scores of books, participated in probably more than 100 study sessions. And you're going to tell me about "conventional Jewish thought" because you read a couple books? Your hubris is astounding.  

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

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by: Kane in CA @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 12:21:03 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You present the evidence ... (0.00 / 2)

 "How's that child molesting going?  (0.00 / 1)
And what you have not done, and I suspect you cannot do, is impeach the evidence that you're a child molester."

 

  and I'll refute it.

 What I appreciate is your out-doing anything I could ever come up with to demonstrate what a disgusting, repugnant shit of a human being you are.

 With this from you, all I have to do is point to your own "work" and say, "Look, readers.  Don't believe me?  See for yourself."

 which precisely answers you here:

 "What, indeed, do you know about "conventional Jewish thought"?  I've attended thousands of religious services, heard well over a thousand sermons, from at least a dozen different traditions, in at least 8 countries and 10 different states."

  You're one of my favorite witnesses for the prosecution.  You condemn yourselves out of your own mouths!!!

 Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.

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by: proximity1 @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 12:33:27 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Identify that condemnation (0.00 / 0)

You can't do it. (No, you haven't done it already.)  

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

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by: Kane in CA @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 12:37:30 PM CST

[ Parent ]

'that condemnation' ... (0.00 / 0)

 "You're one of my favorite witnesses for the prosecution.  You condemn yourselves out of your own mouths!!! "

 this means, dear moron,

  Your own words condemn you ---and to a degree that makes ridiculous anything my comparatively feeble efforts can produce.

 Now, that's not a terribly complicated interpretation to perform.  In fact, many others would have grasped the point without further belabored explanation, but, here, you, who actually vaunt as superior your grasp of conventional Jewish thought and behavior can't even parse my comment above---and you then oblige us by demonstrating that it went over your very deep and penetrating head!

  Thank you----again!

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.

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by: proximity1 @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 12:45:20 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Your logic (0.00 / 0)

is non-existent.

How exactly does it condemn me? And condemn me of what?

Track back.

P1- Jews think this way.

K - I am a Jew.

P1. HA! you're guilty!!

The epitome of rediculous.  

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

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by: Kane in CA @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 13:09:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I had to come back for this one... (3.00 / 2)

because this is the "show-stopper", the "pièce de la résistance".

 Let's take a look at it, because this is a rare instance where we're really at the heart of the matter and this is important to understand-----and you obviously don't :

 On the "logic" as you present it, you're entirely correct,

P1- Jews think this way.

K - I am a Jew.

P1. HA! you're guilty!!

The epitome of rediculous.  

 Yes, that would be ridiculous--if that were my reasoning.

 But, again, you can't seem for the life of you---or, I should say, you can't for the lives of others, the Palestinians, who are literally dying from your ignorance here---to get it through your finely developed intellect that this is not the basis of my utter revulsion of you, of what you defend and believe and argue and support.

  Those things you do---though, in my view, it isn't merely and certainly not solely because you identify yourself as a Jew.

 No.  I find you a thoroughly morally dead, morallly disgusting and contemptible person because of what you believe, say and do ---while, at the same time, you do assert a Jewish identity.

  I don't even believe in such--not as a matter of fact.  Thus, for me, you're not, as no one is, an ugly, repugnant shit of a "Jew".  No.  I see you as an ugly repugnant shit of a human being--full stop.

  Do you seriously believe that I despise people on no other ground than that they claim to belong to the tribe of "Judaism"?  Do you seriously suppose that I have no dear and cherished friends who'd squarely fit your defintition (whatever it is) of "being Jewish"?

 Again, the point here goes to the very heart of your blindness, and that of the moron, "Zok" and of Paul in SF.

 None of you can get past the fact that your "being Jewish" is of absolutely vanishing significance in this moral catastrophe.  You're speaking for, and doing the apologetic work for people who are morally literally on a par with Hitler and the very worst human scum who ever drew breath.

  AND, with that fact, is this one: that you identify yourself as "Jewish" entirely (in your cases) explains your readiness to do this repugnant work of apologetics.

  So, I don't "hate" you for your being something (Jewish) which I don't even recognize as other that a foolish piece of nonsense belief.  I despise you for your disgusting moral depravity and what that, in tandem with your very stupid and misguided beliefs about your belonging to a tribe called "Jews" leads you to do, say, argue, and defend.

  It is peculiar, I think, that so many people who identify as Jews share with you your astounding blindness on this point.  So, as an observer, I have suspect a tangential relation.  But it can't be more than that because there are at some with an unpronounced identification with Judaism who do not do, say, argue and defend the things you do ---and, for example, I cite virtually everything you post here in this blog.

 If this doesn't get through to you, ask someone else to explain it to you.  You're utterly morally lost.

 And, yes, I find you a thorough shit of a human being.  At the same time, and in a way that is not to your credit, you claim to be a Jew.  And I find all of it a moral shame which is in every direct and indirect way a contribution to sixty years of murderous strife and counting.

  If there is a God, and a damnation, then surely, surely, surely He damns you.

Now Im' going home.  I don't want the thought of you to pass my mind again tonight.

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.

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by: proximity1 @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 13:45:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

"None of you"? (7.67 / 3)

Right, we're all the same.

You have no idea how I think. If you did, If you'd actually read the things I've written here, you might have a clue of what I "defend and believe and argue and support" You obviously don't.

You cloak yourself in intellectual superiority, but you're no better, no smarter, no more logical than the fundamentalist idealogues you rail against. Look in the mirror. You will see what you claim to despise.  

to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance .  G. Washington

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by: Kane in CA @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 13:51:34 PM CST

[ Parent ]

BWAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAHAA!! (gasp) (0.00 / 1)

You mean the Gordon Thomas who claims, in that very book, that the Mossad is responsbile for the death of Princess Diana?  The guy who interprets the arabic word "abu" (father) to mean "voice"? Who said Richard Helms was head of the CIA in 1957 (it was actually '66)?  

Hysterical.

You actually try to dispute the evils of fraudulent anti-Semitic propaganda by introducing us to a NEW version of The Protocols.

Seriously, sometimes I can't tell if you're really just a brilliant satirist.  

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by: Zok Tok @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 11:57:34 AM CST

[ Parent ]

that's a false claim ... (2.00 / 3)

"You mean the Gordon Thomas who claims, in that very book, that the Mossad is responsbile for the death of Princess Diana?  The guy who interprets the arabic word "abu" (father) to mean "voice"? Who said Richard Helms was head of the CIA in 1957 (it was actually '66)?  

Hysterical."

 You see, asshole, I've read the book, so I know:

  Nowhere does Thomas allege that Mossad is responsible for the death of Princess Diana.  

  I notice that you repeat (without documented citation to back you up---something that would be easy to provide but you don't (why not?)---Kane's charge on this point.

 Instead, Thomas sets out in detail, the views of Mohamed Al-Fayed concerning the death of Diana and Fayed's son, "Dodi".

  Having read that, I can tell you that not only does Thomas not make this claim, he doesn't even present Al-Fayed's belief in it in so credible a way as to convince a reader that it is true.  I read all of the commentary from Al-Fayed without coming to the conclusion that his beliefs were well-founded in this instance.  But, Thomas gives Al-Fayed his say, and without endorsing the conclusions himself.

 What you've replied with above is so typical of your ignorant, knee-jerk dip-shit nonsense.

  You haven't read the book either, have you?!!!!!

  But, like a reliable parrot, you immediately produce the official talking points like the dumb fuck that you are.

 

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.

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by: proximity1 @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 12:22:56 PM CST

[ Parent ]

dumb fuck, NOT (0.00 / 0)

There is nothing "dumb" about this kind of deliberate distraction/deception/distortion.  It is part of a toolbox of debating techniques that include

someone identifies an unpleasant reality, ignore the reality and demonize that someone

someone notes over-representation of a particular foreign policy perspective, or questions "dual citizens" running "homeland security" or being White House Chief of Staff and it's Zog Zog Zog,

someone notes a persistent historical "political" perspective and organization and its Protocols Protocols Protocols.

Get close to the real, and out comes the distraction/deception/distortion in response . . . and, of course, "you're an anti-Semite" . . .


"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

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by: Deward Hastings @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 13:00:24 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I do understand your point there... (0.00 / 0)

and I grant that only so far, as you'll see below.

  I know you're not for an instant the dupe of such techniques nor, any longer, am I, and I think you know that, too.

  Even acknowledging your essential point---which is that for some, perhaps a considerable number, these methods do their intended work---I maintain that ultimately they're still the product of people who are entirely deserving of the epithet "dumb fuck": they are, in my view, transparently  clumsy, gross, and repugnant.

 It takes time, yes, but I'm convinced that these tactics are now beyond the point of diminishing returns and that they actually and very seriously harm Israel's "image"---or, to put it more accurately, they give further evidence to the utterly odious image which Israel has and so deserves.

  Is that being a "dumb fuck"?

  It certainly is in my book.

 

Read - think - speak - doubt; create - explore - give - love.

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by: proximity1 @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 13:14:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Nice to see ya back. n.t (6.00 / 2)

Lord of the Karmafishes

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by: Karmafish @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:10:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

ditto. (9.00 / 1)

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:22:43 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'd say nuance died long ago (0.00 / 0)

This just reinvigorated the fact that most progressives how no fucking clue and simple minded jackasses who can't possibly deal with a subject where one side isn't right and one side isn't wrong.

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by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 19:59:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Do you really not know... (4.50 / 2)

...who is in PNAC and AEI and the rest of the neocon think tankery that pushed the Iraq war?

Shame.  

Jeff

Commander Jeff Huber, U.S. Navy (Retired) writes from Virginia. Read his weekday commentaries at Pen and Sword and ePluribus Media.

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by: Jeff Huber @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 14:20:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Oh, do tell. Who? n.t (0.00 / 0)

Lord of the Karmafishes

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by: Karmafish @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 15:24:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

So you really are claiming that the Iraq (3.00 / 2)

War is the fault of teh Joooos.

As I said, you have lost any and all credibility.




Lord of the Karmafishes

---

by: Karmafish @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 15:39:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Jeff's got a point (5.67 / 6)

I looked at the roster of people who belong to PNAC and who write and sign their documents, and I found that ell over half of the Jews in America are on that list.

Right, Jeff?

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 18:35:38 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Look at the list of any progressive group (0.00 / 0)

and I'd bet half are Jews too.

What's your fucking point?

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 19:51:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

MF (6.00 / 1)

read it again.

(Deward got it.  Check his rating.  So did the others who rated it.)

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 19:54:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

OK. Read it again. And again I ask, WHAT'S YOUR FUCKING POINT? (0.00 / 0)

Oh, Deward got it?

Well, that says all that need be said I think.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 19:56:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

MF (0.00 / 0)

Why do you think he gave it a zero, other than the fact that he just likes to give me zeroes?

And you misread it.  I didn't say that half of the people on their list were Jews.


"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:16:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Aah, sarcasm (6.00 / 3)

Doesn't always play well at first read.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:23:52 PM CST

[ Parent ]

MF, take a deep breath (6.00 / 2)

Madscientist is calling Huber out on the implication in his comment that the membership of PNAC and AEI are, well, Jews.  Huber is too much of a coward to just come out and say it, which is typical of people of his ilk.  Even proximity has the balls to be open about his anti-semitism.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:25:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Paul, MF has no sense of humour. (6.00 / 1)

And he cannot TAKE a deep breath.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:32:39 PM CST

[ Parent ]

MSOC, you most certainly do not know me (6.00 / 3)

for if you did, you'd know that both those assertions are not correct.

I have a tremendous sense of humor..in fact, I'm laughing at myself as we speak.

As for breathing deeply, well, its been a while since my days as a karate instructor when i taught children proper breathing, but I think I can handle such exercises if need be.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:37:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

which a can lead to... (0.00 / 0)

Hyperventilation Coma

"I tire of this banal chat...now is the time on Sprockets when we dance." ~Dieter/SNL

---

by: Cheryl @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:42:06 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, I/P seems to require a 10-second tape delay (8.57 / 7)

Maybe someone will design software for I/P discussions, so that when you try to post a comment, a box will pop up and ask, "are you really sure you want to post that?"  And then if you answer "yes," another box will pop up and ask, "are you really really sure?"  And if the person says "yes" again, a third popup will ask, "would you say that to the person if he was standing in front of you and holding a baseball bat?"

Only then do you get to post your comment.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 16:11:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Not a bad idea (0.00 / 0)

especially the baseball bat test.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 18:11:21 PM CST

[ Parent ]

we've been (6.00 / 1)

through that before.  I rate your comments "total fucking douchbaggery" when they are ad hominims and personal insults, and "just plain bullshit" when they are just plain bullshit (as was the case above).  The alternative was a "7", but I wasn't really much amused . . .

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."    Voltaire

---

by: Deward Hastings @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:43:06 PM CST

[ Parent ]

we've been (7.50 / 2)

through this before.  A '0' from you is the equivalent to an '11' from most people.

The point here was obvious, and you didn't want to hear it.  It simply challenged your faith.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 21:57:16 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes, it's pretty easy to see that (6.00 / 1)

common goals and views cause AIPAC's views to be given credence.

However, claiming it's bought our government simply has no basis beyond your clear bigotry.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 19:50:14 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You just moved the target (0.00 / 0)

and you know it.

You went from 'AIPAC owns the government' to 'AIPAC, AEI, AND OTHER NEOCON THINK TANKS.'

When you change the subject from "AIPAC" to "conservatives," or even "neocons," under a necon government, then you completely change what you are saying.  In other words, you go from "the Jews control the government" to "the government controls the government."

So now we truly see you for what you are, a DISHONEST anti-Semite.

Thank you for clearing that up.

---

by: Zok Tok @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 09:48:55 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Thank You Jeff For Your Comments (9.00 / 1)

"Progressive" blog sites are tending to ignore this holocaust because of the attendent heated responses. Observing this tragedy unfold, however, I only can cry out in frustration over the implicit tolerance of this slaughter manifested by the silence. Indeed, as well, silence by Obama and cheerleading by Congressional "leaders" chills me because indicative of ethical insensitivity. Perhaps it is the ethically insensitive who are attracted to politics. Disproportionate incidences of moral turpitude exhibited by politicans in the last several years brings relevance to this speculation. Certainly the question brings pause to any trust in political policy makers in the current national and international circumstance.

---

by: philandrel @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 13:24:39 PM CST

"holocaust" (6.00 / 1)

Ugh. This is not a holocaust. Not by a long shot.

Please define "holocaust." I'm truly curious as to what people's definitions of "holocaust" are. It's my understanding that a holocaust is an almost complete and devastating destruction and loss of life -- not a decimation, not 800 people in a two week incursion, not even a hundred thousand people in a 60 year war. An ALMOST TOTAL LOSS OF A PEOPLE.

But, please -- correct me if I'm wrong.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 14:26:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Good question. (4.50 / 2)

From Merriam Wesbster Online:

holocaust
One entry found.
Main Entry:
  ho·lo·caust Listen to the pronunciation of holocaust
Pronunciation:
  ?h?-l?-?ko?st, ?hä- also ?käst or ?ho?l?-ko?st\
Function:
  noun
Etymology:
  Middle English, from Late Latin holocaustum, from Greek holokauston, from neuter of holokaustos burnt whole, from hol- + kaustos burnt, from kaiein to burn - more at caustic
Date:
  13th century

1: a  sacrifice consumed by fire

2: a  thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire,(a nuclear holocaust)

3: a  often capitalized : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II -usually used with the b: a mass slaughter of people ; especially : genocide

I suppose the second definition could well describe what's going on in Gaza?

"I tire of this banal chat...now is the time on Sprockets when we dance." ~Dieter/SNL

---

by: Cheryl @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 18:48:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A Holocaust or Genocide would tend (0.00 / 0)

to not be one side of war.

Rather, it would be one side fighting a completely civilian population.

Which this isn't.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 19:52:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Respectfully disagree, my chinchilla (5.50 / 2)

You've got a population in Gaza of approximately 1.5 million people.  So it's not even one-tenth of one percent of the population.  That's not to excuse any loss of life, and shame on anyone who tries to imply that's what I'm doing, but it hardly raises to the level of a holocaust, or a genocide, or even a massacre.  And that's over more than 2 weeks.  

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 16:06:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Not even one-thousandth of the population (0.00 / 0)

Real genocide is usually rather swift when compared to war.

One need only look at Darfur to see this-the total deaths from the genocide, which dates back 5-6 years, is higher than the total deaths in the entire history of the Mideast Conflict to date.

But, since it's in Africa and Sudan has many well connected friends profiting off of their oil, not a whole lot is done or said about it.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 16:13:35 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Daily UN Press Briefings (8.00 / 2)

http://www.un.org/webcast/
I think it's on channel 2.

I strongly advise you to watch the daily (weekdays) UN press conference at 12pm (Eastern) dealing with the situation in Gaza. They have direct video access to the UN human rights administrator in Gaza, an Irishman, I gather from his accent. This is just about the most informative report from the situation on the ground. The man does not mince words and stands his ground ferociously when questioned by some of the members of the American press who very obviously pursue other agendas. The situation report makes your skin crawl, well, at least if you consider Gazans / Palestinians as humans.

---

by: downtown @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 13:30:12 PM CST

I don't know what happened to the post... (5.00 / 1)

...but here, once again, is a link to an article in The Nation the cognizant may want to read regarding AIPAC and Congress:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/2...

Commander Jeff Huber, U.S. Navy (Retired) writes from Virginia. Read his weekday commentaries at Pen and Sword and ePluribus Media.

---

by: Jeff Huber @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 14:18:27 PM CST

Here's What's Appearing On YAHOO! NEWS For Holocaust Deniers (0.00 / 0)

and other quibblers and rationalizers:

Rights group: Israel uses white phosphorus in Gaza

http://news.yahoo.com/?u

When YAHOO! NEWS runs articles like this, sympathy for Israel is declining. YAHOO! NEWS is not exactly a leader in challenging conventional attitudes.

---

by: philandrel @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 16:47:01 PM CST

[ Parent ]

From Haaretz (6.00 / 1)

Sure to be a favourite:

Human Rights Watch said in a statement that its researchers in Israel observed multiple air-bursts on Jan. 9 and Jan. 10 of artillery-fired white phosphorus near the city of Gaza and the Jabalya refugee camp.

The group said Israel appeared to be using the munitions to make smoke screens to hide military operations - "a permissible use in principle under international humanitarian law."

But Human Rights Watch said the practice should be stopped in Gaza's densely populated areas.

"White phosphorus can burn down houses and cause horrific burns when it touches the skin," said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch.

The Israel Defense Forces said it would not provide details about the
munitions it was using in the Gaza Strip, but it added: "We emphasise that the IDF only employs weapons permitted by international law."

Link to the rest of the story, which is from Reuters.

The Yahoo story (which is from AP) notes that Israel is not a signatory to the conventions on the use of phosphorus in war.  

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 18:53:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

What's truly sad is a member of our Armed Services (0.00 / 4)

sounding more like an SS officer than a reasonable human.

Shame.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:01:05 PM CST

Douchebaggery. (7.00 / 3)

If you're calling Jeff Huber an SS officer, I call douchebaggery.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:13:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

When Jeff suggests our government is run by (0.00 / 3)

some sort of Zionist conspiracy, I suggest if the swatika fits, wear it.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:19:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Pardon me, swazitika (0.00 / 0)

just want to clarify my spelling error.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:19:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

oh my... (7.00 / 1)

...we must have grammatically correct douchbaggery now mustn't we.  I mean where would we be if misspelled fucktard when calling someone one.

BTW you are one.

---

by: Delver Rootnose @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 05:34:39 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Swastika (6.75 / 4)

That's twice now that the Pedantry Police has cited you.  Third time, you have to go sit in the corner.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 16:08:43 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Oh, fuck OFF. (7.00 / 2)

 You and fairleft are two sides of the same goddamned coin. YOU'RE NO DIFFERENT.

I wish to christ you'd LEAVE THIS SITE.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:20:06 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Fuck off? You defend a ZOG conspiracist? (0.00 / 2)

Well, MOC, I can see where your loyalties lie.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:22:09 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm serious. (0.00 / 0)

You and the Palestinian-floggers have succeeded in ruining the experience of signing on to my own goddamned blog for me.

Thank you.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:21:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, people like you have made me regret (0.00 / 4)

being a left winger.

You're almost as bad as people like Jeff and in many ways, your complicity with this nonsense makes you far worse.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:27:43 PM CST

[ Parent ]

People like her... (10.00 / 4)

give people like you a platform for your bullshit. I understand you don't have that privilege everywhere.

Only solitary men know the full joys of friendship. Others have their family; but to a solitary and an exile, his friends are everything. - Willa Cather

---

by: billybush @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:42:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A platform accompanied by a scolding (0.00 / 0)

for not giving a polite response to someone who makes a baseless and rather inflammatory claim.

Hey, kudos to her for allowing all to post, but I call bs on her defense of Jeff.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:45:32 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Boo hoo. (0.00 / 0)

She didn't give you a scolding for criticizing Cmdr. Huber, she gave you a scolding for calling him a Nazi.  You have valid points to make.  It's too bad you seem to lack the poise to make them.  You are way past the deep end. You do your side and your credibility a disservice with such over-the top comments.

Only solitary men know the full joys of friendship. Others have their family; but to a solitary and an exile, his friends are everything. - Willa Cather

---

by: billybush @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:57:03 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I see. So, to be clear, suggesting there is a Jewish conspiracy (3.00 / 3)

to "buy" our foreign policy is credible, but to call the person making them what he is is not?

Hey, I get it.  I got called a Jewish warmonger today by a Palestinian protester in Times Square who was upset that I dared correct her claim that what was going on in Gaza wasn't a genocide.

So, it's clear that fire and brimstone are permissible when it's tossed one way, not so much when it's returned.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 21:02:44 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Where did I say anything was credible? (0.00 / 0)

I said you had valid points to make.  Instead of making those points, you chose to call someone a Nazi.

And, just so you know, I suspect if MSOC was a friend of yours, and she was with you in Times Square, she would have defended you as vigorously as she defended Cmdr. Huber.

Only solitary men know the full joys of friendship. Others have their family; but to a solitary and an exile, his friends are everything. - Willa Cather

---

by: billybush @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 21:11:56 PM CST

[ Parent ]

That's nice. But at the end of the day (3.00 / 2)

the reality remains that she was silent on his comment until I noted it.  Then and only then was she moved to speak and only to defend someone who doesn't deserve the defending.  My beef isn't with her though.

If it was one comment, I'd have let it pass, but he's been making similar comments all week.   I'm so fucking sick of this type of demonization and outright lying being accepted by those on the left that discussing it with anyone in a rational matter is of zero use anymore.

It's time to call a spade a spade and in this case, a Jew hater a Jew hater.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 21:16:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

If you have abandoned rationality... (0.00 / 0)

you have already lost.  What's the point in arguing at all?

If your beef is not with Maryscott, you have a funny way of showing it.

You're almost as bad as people like Jeff and in many ways, your complicity with this nonsense makes you far worse.

If Jeff = Nazi and Maryscott = far worse than Jeff, then Maryscott =  far worse than a Nazi  It's the transitive property.

Only solitary men know the full joys of friendship. Others have their family; but to a solitary and an exile, his friends are everything. - Willa Cather

---

by: billybush @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 21:33:39 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Perhaps there is no point (0.00 / 3)

it seems the left is moving further away from the idea of peace and more to one of anti-Israel and in some ways, like Jeff, anti-semitic.

I'm just rather tired of hearing this, especially from people who should know better.

And since MSOC wishes me gone, I'm gone.

Peace.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 21:36:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

MF, (8.00 / 2)

MSOC has tried very hard over a long period of time trying to come to a reasonable balance on this site between free speech and discouraging hate speech.

She may not always see eye-to-eye with us on this subject, but I know for a fact that she has struggled with it.

Let it go, please.

If you can.




Lord of the Karmafishes

---

by: Karmafish @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:18:56 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I will, but I will also have to respect her wishes (11.00 / 1)

She said she wishes I would leave and as much as it pains me to agree with Cheryl, she is absolutely correct with regard to the fact that this MSOC's site. She created it, she sets the standards and even she isn't willing to drop the proverbial ban hammer, if I don't belong here because I am unwilling to take what I see as blatant anti-semitism without giving its just response, then such is life.

But here's some food for thought from Rabbi Michael Lerner for you and anyone else willing to listen.  I don't always agree with Lerner, but he's pretty spot on with regard to the left wing progressives and how it has approached this subject matter:

KALL:  What can progressives do?  On OpEdNews, we have some people who post saying Israel is evil, that Zionists are evil.  I hear that a lot.  I'd love to hear your response about Zionists and Zionism.

LERNER:  I think the first thing to say is that if I were the Israeli Right, or if I were the right wing fundamentalists in this country, I'd be putting those lefties who are writing that on their payroll - in fact, they might be on their payroll, for all I know.  In other words, this is the kind of language and the kind of thinking that ensures the predominance of the right.  When people go to vilify the Jewish people or to vilify the State of Israel, to demean it, to assume that it is fundamentally evil, it's pure craziness and it's wrong.  It's wrong morally and it's wrong factually.

The fact of the matter is that if these people are looking for someone to vilify, they might as well start with the United States, rather than with Israel.  The fact that they don't, the fact that they want to see Israel wiped off the face of the map, but when the United States is engaged in actions far more egregious and far more destructive of human life than Israel has ever done, just in this past few years with the United States in Iraq, and now considering going into Afghanistan and Pakistan... The attempt to vilify Israel and to make it appear to be the worst country in the world, which I do see often happening in left-wing circles, way too often happening in left wing circles, is a manifestation of an ancient anti-Semitism, hatred of the Jews, making the Jews seem as though they are worse than everybody else, when the facts simply don't sustain that.  We've just lived through, in the past...

KALL:  But they say, "It's not the Jews, it's the Zionists and Israel.  I don't have a problem with the Jews; it's the Zionists and Israel."  This is what they say.

LERNER:  But it happens that Zionism is the national liberation struggle of the Jewish people.  It is a struggle for Jews to... that emerged for Jews to fight their way out of the way that non-Jews have been treating us for the last 2,000 years.

That national liberation struggle has, in my view, been deeply screwed up in a lot of ways.  That doesn't distinguish it from the national liberation struggle of people in this country that created the United States of America, or the national liberation struggle of the Chinese that created the current Communist regime in China.  You see what I mean?

KALL:  People will argue that they're not religions.

LERNER:  Well, so what?  What does that have to do with anything?  So what if they're not religions?  Zionism isn't a religion.

KALL:  Okay.

LERNER:  Right.

KALL:  But it is very often equated with Judaism, of course.

LERNER:  Then you're telling me what you just denied a second ago.  You said that they're claiming that they're not against Jews or Judaism; they're only against a particular political movement called Zionism.

KALL:  Well, I see the use of the term Zionism as a way to hide behind anti-Semitism very frequently.

LERNER:  Well, that's what I said - a lot of this attack is anti-Semitic.  It singles out Israel as the worst country in the world, when... I mean, it's just crazy.  Look at the genocide going on in Darfur at this moment.  The numbers of people who have been killed, the numbers of people who have been raped, it's just unbelievable what's going on down there.  It far surpasses all of the deaths that have been caused by the Israel-Palestinian struggle from the beginning to the present moment; from the beginning of that struggle to the present moment, far surpassed by what's going on in Darfur, not to mention what has gone on previously in Rwanda.

And so, people on the left who single out Israel, when the level of violence and destructiveness is nothing compared to what's going on in some of these other countries, are anti-Semitic, objectively anti-Semitic, whatever their intentions are.  It's an anti-Semitic response.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:32:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, shit, I hope that you hang around. (0.00 / 0)

I sometimes feel like I am being condescending toward you in that I find myself trying to... I don't know... adjust your participation, or whatever.

The fact is that you're still relatively new to these parts so your view does not have the benefit of MLW history.... but that's not your fault, is it?

Hang around, mister, and thanks for the above.

Cheers!




Lord of the Karmafishes

---

by: Karmafish @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:36:56 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, I take back the "I wish you would leave" thing. (9.00 / 3)

I was lashing out.

I really, REALLY shouldn't post in haste. There should be a PAUSE button on these passionate dialogues.

I shouldn't participate in them. I really shouldn't. Especially since I own the damned blog and, as many have noted, I set the fucking tone.

I apologise.

BLANKET apology, to EVERYBODY. Jews, gentiles, Palestine-sympathisers, Israeli-sympathisers. Everybody.

I am Switzerland. As of now.

Well, THAT won't work, either, given what we now know, will it. Shit.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:41:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Whether you participate or not is your choice (8.00 / 4)

but I will respect your neutrality and will apologize for my comments towards you yesterday as well.

There is an immense amount of anger involved in this topic coming from both sides and at the end of the day, once the anger subsides, there will need to be some way forward.

I'll agree that I should have been more mindful of my reply to Jeff.  I will try to avoid responding with such comments and be more creative in my rebuttals, even when I am as annoyed as I was yesterday.

Peace, Shalom and Salaam.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:47:38 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Oh yes, be Switzerland (7.00 / 3)

Hitler's bankers, doncha know!

You want someone disappeared, you let me know.  I've had it done before.  Granted, it was having someone removed from a photograph using photoshop, but better than nothing, right?

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 16:14:11 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Swittzerland!!! (7.50 / 2)

mmmmmmmmm....Chocolate!!!

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish

---

by: devilishadvocate @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 16:26:54 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Switzerland (7.00 / 1)

The other white meat.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 17:12:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

"...as much as it pains me to agree with Cheryl..." (10.00 / 3)

ModerateFundamentalist,

I'm sorry you are pained to agree with me.

Throughout the history of these I/P wars here, I've really for the most part avoided them.

I've avoided them because they have generated much hatred and animus between the participants.

While I do have opinions at variance with your own and many others here as re: I/P, losing the kinship/friendship of any single one of the members here is not worth "choosing up sides" on this issue, when we have so much in common otherwise.

I'd like to get to know who you are aside from the prickly thorns of the I/P debate. I know you must have many wonderful facets to your personality.

Wanna start over? I do.    

"I tire of this banal chat...now is the time on Sprockets when we dance." ~Dieter/SNL

---

by: Cheryl @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 17:27:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Sure. My apologies for anything (7.50 / 2)

I have said to you in the past that has been insulting or out of line.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 18:09:11 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I really don't care how much of a difference of opinion you have with the man... (9.00 / 1)

if you take it to such a degree that you can't restrain yourself from calling the man a Nazi, I'm just going to have to fucking call you a fucking douchebag.

You're a fucking disgrace.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:15:34 PM CST

[ Parent ]

So, claiming Jews are buying our government (0.00 / 1)

in so many words is ok, but me calling him on it is not?

Interesting....

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:24:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

google "ZOG" before (5.25 / 4)

you decide who is out of line.  That, or read the comment I wrote below.

I have tried to stay out of this, and please accept my heartfelt word I do NOT want to see MLW spiral down into this again.  I raised my hand now because Jeff Huber, not one of the more obvious anti-Semites, but somebody who comes here with a modicum of credibility, raises ancient slanders as if they were truths.  Such things may not be countenanced, for they are not mere harbingers, but catalysts of suffering and destruction.

---

by: Zok Tok @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 09:53:28 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Agree, MF (9.00 / 1)

with Maryscott.

No need to go to the Nazi well here.

If you think he is unreasonable, make the point by reasoning against him.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:19:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

No need? Oh, I humbly disagree (3.00 / 2)

the proponents of these ZOG conspiracies deserve the scorn they are given.

This smear job would be a disgrace if it came from any ordinary citizen.  From a former member of the Navy, it's a fucking disgrace.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:21:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Madscientist, there's no reasoning with people like this. (0.00 / 0)

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:21:44 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Oh, but ZOG conspiracy bsers like Jeff are ok>? (1.00 / 3)

Fuck, you are hopeless.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:22:45 PM CST

[ Parent ]

ZOG for dummies (Or What Jeff is really saying) (0.00 / 1)

Just the facts, maam:

Zionist Occupation Government (abbreviated as ZOG) is a conspiracy theory which holds that Zionists secretly control a given country, while the formal government is a puppet regime.
The expression is used by antisemitic groups such as neo-Nazis in the United States[1] and Europe,[2] ultra-nationalists such as Pamyat in Russia, and various far-right and far-left wing groups, including some in Poland[3] and Sweden.
The word "Zionist" in "Zionist Occupation Government" is derived from the ideology of Zionism, the movement for support of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel. As the conspiracy theorists chiefly name countries outside that area, the usage of Zionist in this context is misleading, and intended to portray Jews as conspirators who aim to control the world, as in the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion.[4]

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:35:32 PM CST

I should have just listened to my first instinct (2.50 / 2)

And stayed the fuck out of ALL of it.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 14:45:24 PM CST

You have done nothing wrong. (6.00 / 1)

You have said nothing objectionable.

People see things differently is all.

There are certain things that I see which I have a very difficult time getting around.

There are certain things that I see which tend to hamper and alter my participation.

Peace, please.




Lord of the Karmafishes

---

by: Karmafish @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:05:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Maybe so, Maryscott... (9.00 / 2)

but you set the standard here for what passes as acceptable dialogue.

That is to say, when boundaries are crossed that offend your own sense of ethics, well, it becomes an "In My Name" thing.

You don't ban people, but you of all people are entitled to speak for your own blog, yes?  

"I tire of this banal chat...now is the time on Sprockets when we dance." ~Dieter/SNL

---

by: Cheryl @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:06:35 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yip. Yip. Yup. n.t (8.00 / 1)

Lord of the Karmafishes

---

by: Karmafish @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:22:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

ROFL~! (7.00 / 1)

"I tire of this banal chat...now is the time on Sprockets when we dance." ~Dieter/SNL

---

by: Cheryl @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:26:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I respectfully disagree (7.00 / 5)

for you are calling this fairly both ways, even if people don't like the calls.  You properly castigated MF for using "SS" as he did, not because he was right or wrong, but because that is intended to shut down conversation.  You asked whether this was a factual dispute, and for the source of fury, and read the answer, rather than telling people to shut up.

No, I think it is better this time around. If I thought otherwise, I would keep even my toes out of the pool, and as you can see, I am at least dipping again.  (also, can you throw me some love for not escalating the fight with Prox?)

---

by: Zok Tok @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:32:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

This is me, (10.00 / 1)

Throwing you some love.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

---

by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 15:37:16 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Looks to me like a booger with arms (8.00 / 1)

Yup, I think you just hit Zoggy Toggy with a booger.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 17:46:01 PM CST

[ Parent ]

"Definition of tragedy: (4.00 / 1)

A hero destroyed by the excess of his virtues.  ....It is the business of the tragic poet to give audiences the pleasure which arises from pity and terror...." Aristotle.  Peace

---

by: imhotep @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 17:59:01 PM CST

imhotep, (0.00 / 0)

I find your comment a little puzzling.

Surely you are not saying that Israel is tragic because it is being destroyed by the excess of its virtues.

That cannot be your meaning.  Can it?

Or perhaps you saying that Gaza is tragic because of the excess of its virtues?





Lord of the Karmafishes

---

by: Karmafish @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 18:20:50 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Karmafish (4.00 / 1)

i never take sides--dispite what a lot of people believe.  In The Wisdom of Sands, Saint-Exupery said, "The meaning of things lies not in the things themselves but in our attitude towards them."  Now, i do have a strong attitude about things, but even at that my attitude keeps changing.  Which is not to say that i can't see a tragedy even while i'm looking at it from all points of view.  Peace

---

by: imhotep @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 08:27:40 AM CST

[ Parent ]

AIPAC (7.25 / 4)

Maybe I haven't read this thread thoroughly enough, but I don't think anyone has actually gauged AIPAC's influence.

On one side Jeff Huber wrote:

The Senate has passed a resolution endorsing Israel's invasion of Gaza and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-California) says the U.S. "must continue to stand strongly with its friend and democratic ally."  

There you have the difference between the U.N., the Catholic Church and the U.S. Congress; the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) doesn't own the U.N. or the Catholic Church.    

Now, some people felt this was endorsing a Zionist conspiracy, but I don't sense that was Jeff's intent. Although I can't read his mind, I think he was making a crude argument about AIPAC's influence. The responses to his argument were quite impassioned invoking the history of conspiracy theories and perhaps demonstrated that one has to be careful in how one gauges AIPAC's influence and presents an argument on the matter.

However, I don't think AIPAC can have its cake and eat it too. In other words, in college I learned it was the highest grossing lobbying group behind the NRA and AARP*, and as a lobbying group it certain does have some influence--that's the point of the organization. It's unfair for a wealthy organization to have a degree of power and also be off limits for discussing or criticizing that power.

So, rather than say it 100% rules American Foreign Policy or that it is off topic for criticism, a discussion of AIPAC should rather investigate, accurately, the amount of influence it has.

On a side note, has anyone heard of "J Street." This is a new group described on their page as follows:

J Street represents Americans, primarily but not exclusively Jewish, who support Israel and its desire for security as the Jewish homeland, as well as the right of the Palestinians to a sovereign state of their own - two states living side-by-side in peace and security. We believe ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is in the best interests of Israel, the United States, the Palestinians, and the region as a whole.

As Karmafish routinely points out there are different voices within most groups, it appears J Street is one that deserves progressive support.

*(I can't find the figures on the internet--so this is from memory and please feel free to give updated numbers if you know them)  

-deano

---

by: dknow @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 18:45:05 PM CST

There is a very major distinction (0.00 / 0)

between saying AIPAC has influence, be it a lot or even too much, and saying it bought and owns our government.

It's the difference between a legitimate criticism and potentially buying into a bigoted conspiracy theory.

If Jeff had never made a similar comment to this one, I'd have probably been far less impassioned in my rebuttal.  But, having read several of his diaries and comments, it's pretty obvious where he stands.  Or, to quote Mr. Zimmerman, "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

J Street is a great group, though its influence is only beginning to be felt throughout the Jewish and Progressive communities.  If I were to imagine the best possible combination of the two, they'd be as close as I could picture.  

They have primarily involved themselves in petition campaigns such as the one to prevent Sarah Palin from hijacking the rally against Iran back a few months ago.

It definitely deserves progressive AND Jewish support.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 18:52:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Basically agree MF (5.00 / 1)

I just can't know Jeff's intentions and my intuition is that he doesn't subscribe to any bigoted conspiracy theory.  

-deano

---

by: dknow @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:00:20 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I would hope not, but I still have my doubts (0.00 / 0)

At the very least, he's not particularly careful with the language he uses.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:20:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Facts (5.00 / 1)

So I found a very old (1999) assessment of top lobbying groups from Fortune.com and AIPAC is the forth largest.

Link

-deano

---

by: dknow @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 18:56:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

was, duh <nt> (0.00 / 0)

-deano

---

by: dknow @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 18:56:50 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Not surprising (6.00 / 1)

They may be even higher today than then.

That being said, being successful at a perfectly legal enterprise is quite different from "owning our government."

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:19:14 PM CST

[ Parent ]

No, Jeff can't have his cake and eat it too (6.00 / 1)

he can't get away with saying AIPAC owns Congress, just another version of the old ZOG slander, and still get the benefit of the doubt that you work so hard to give him. What he said was very clear.  It only gets distorted when you try to change the meaning.  

Saying a lobbying group has influence is permitted, if not redundant.  Going from there to identifying AIPAC as THE group that owns Congress, though, that is a whole other kettle of fish, one that is very old and stinks quite badly.  

---

by: Zok Tok @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:00:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You're entitled to your opinion <nt> (0.00 / 0)

-deano

---

by: dknow @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:02:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

And by the way (6.00 / 2)

I didn't "work so hard" to give him the benefit of the doubt. I shared my thoughts on the subject.

Don't write about my intentions.

-deano

---

by: dknow @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:16:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Enough with the AIPAC garbage (5.00 / 1)

top lobbying groups, by dollars:

2008

US Chamber of Commerce $57,965,000
PG&E Corp $22,150,000
AARP $21,030,000
Exxon Mobil $17,880,000
Northrop Grumman $16,433,252
American Medical Assn $15,540,000
General Electric $15,038,000
Pharmaceutical Rsrch & Mfrs of America $14,050,000
American Hospital Assn $13,880,776
Verizon Communications $13,405,000
Lockheed Martin $12,531,086
Boeing Co $11,780,000
AT&T Inc $11,698,037
National Assn of Realtors $10,790,000
Blue Cross/Blue Shield $10,771,699
General Motors $10,021,000
National Cable & Telecommunications Assn $9,980,000
Eli Lilly & Co $9,095,000
Pfizer Inc $8,920,000
Comcast Corp $8,720,000

2007

US Chamber of Commerce $52,750,000
General Electric $23,660,000
Pharmaceutical Rsrch & Mfrs of America $22,733,400
American Medical Assn  $22,132,000
American Hospital Assn  $19,734,545
AARP $19,540,000
AT&T Inc $17,138,109
Exxon Mobil $16,940,000
Amgen Inc $16,260,000
Southern Co $14,560,000
General Motors $14,560,000
Altria Group $14,380,000
Verizon Communications $14,027,000
National Assn of Realtors $13,860,000
Pfizer Inc $13,800,000
National Cable & Telecommunications Assn $13,020,000
Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers $12,835,527
American International Group $11,379,000
Northrop Grumman $10,959,627
Boeing Co $10,640,000

2006

US Chamber of Commerce $72,740,000
AARP $23,160,000
General Electric $21,040,000
American Medical Assn $19,880,000
AT&T Inc $19,110,720
US Telecom Assn $18,380,000
Pharmaceutical Rsrch & Mfrs of America $18,100,000
American Hospital Assn $17,435,135
Northrop Grumman $16,729,865
Exxon Mobil $14,520,000
PG&E Corp $14,190,000
National Cable & Telecommunications Assn $14,020,000
Southern Co $13,300,000
National Assn of Manufacturers $13,240,000
Verizon Communications $13,202,500
Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers $13,028,508
Altria Group $12,870,000
Pfizer Inc $11,800,000
Edison Electric Institute $11,000,000
Amgen Inc $10,220,000

2005

US Chamber of Commerce $39,770,000
AARP $36,302,064
General Electric $24,220,000
American Medical Assn $19,460,000
US Telecom Assn $16,780,000
American Hospital Assn $16,667,186
Altria Group $13,705,000
Northrop Grumman $13,660,000
Pharmaceutical Rsrch & Mfrs of America $13,480,000
Southern Co $13,260,000
PriceWaterhouseCoopers $12,580,000
Freddie Mac $12,560,000
National Assn of Realtors $11,940,000
Verizon Communications $11,766,110
Natl Cmte to Preserve Social Security $11,260,000
Edison Electric Institute $11,140,000
Blue Cross/Blue Shield $10,102,090
Fannie Mae $10,080,000
SBC Communications $10,070,631
Asbestos Study Group $10,010,000

2004

US Chamber of Commerce $53,380,000
American Medical Assn $18,820,000
Freddie Mac $17,400,000
General Electric $17,240,000
American Hospital Assn  $15,889,161
Pharmaceutical Rsrch & Mfrs of America $15,520,000
US Telecom Assn $14,780,000
National Assn of Realtors $13,630,000
Southern Co $13,470,694
Altria Group $13,280,000
Northrop Grumman $12,566,000
SBC Communications $11,994,338
Edison Electric Institute $11,220,000
Asbestos Study Group $10,020,000
Microsoft Corp $9,460,000
AT&T $9,281,499
American Council of Life Insurers $9,155,756
Verizon Communications $9,080,000
Fannie Mae $8,790,000
General Motors $8,540,000

Do I need to keep doing this?  Seriously, a LIBERAL website believes the garbage some of you spew about AIPAC when the real money from from the friggin' Chamber of UP YOURS WORKERS Commerce?!!?

Here you go, 10 years, 1998-2008:

US Chamber of Commerce $427,879,680
American Medical Assn $194,987,500
General Electric $178,088,000
American Hospital Assn $157,749,347
AARP $147,822,064
Pharmaceutical Rsrch & Mfrs of America $141,083,400
Northrop Grumman $123,075,253
Edison Electric Institute $121,865,999
Business Roundtable $114,340,000
National Assn of Realtors $111,810,380
Lockheed Martin $110,746,721
Blue Cross/Blue Shield $108,013,172
Exxon Mobil $99,916,942
Boeing Co $98,918,310
Freddie Mac $96,164,048
General Motors $95,781,483
Verizon Communications $92,780,610
Southern Co $89,260,694
Ford Motor Co $80,644,808
Fannie Mae $80,437,000

Chamber of Commerce, the AMA, General Electric, Northrop Grumman, Business Roundtable, Lockheed Martin, Blue Cross and we're going to let you die Blue Shield.

Jesus Christ on a stick, people, do you really think the JEWS are your enemy?!  If you did, find yourself a mirror ask yourself why.

---

by: Zok Tok @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:18:04 PM CST

Hey Zok, (0.00 / 0)

where did these numbers come from?




Lord of the Karmafishes

---

by: Karmafish @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:29:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Open Secret dot Org n/t (5.00 / 1)

---

by: Zok Tok @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:55:45 PM CST

[ Parent ]

An interesting link from the 2006 election cycle (5.00 / 1)

from a very anti-Israel site at that.  This is the total Pro-Israel Pac spending, not just AIPAC.

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/...

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:29:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

And here are the 2008 figures (5.00 / 1)

notably down from 2006:

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/...

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:33:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

About $1200/person on average (0.00 / 0)

Given what it costs to get elected, that's not very much.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:43:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Certainly not enough to 'buy' (0.00 / 0)

much beyond perhaps a letter of thanks from said officials.

---

by: ModerateFundamentalist @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:52:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The numbers (0.00 / 0)

may depend upon whether we're discussing lobbying groups in Washington or corporations.  

-deano

---

by: dknow @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:33:42 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Hey, lay off the Chamber (0.00 / 0)

got family working there, and we're all quite grateful for that.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:41:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]