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Einstein for President

by: Madscientist

Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 01:05:44 AM PST



I read with some interest and much disgust the same old same old discussion of the lack of intellectual "qualifications" [I will use the word 'requisites'] for the presidency of Republican candidates for president.  I first heard a Republican president described as stupid as a boy, when Eisenhower was called stupid, and was said to lack "intellectual depth."  Nixon got some of that treatment, then Reagan, and, of course, Bush.

Now Palin.

I'd like to take some of the interesting ideas expressed and strive for some clarity.

Jump over the fold to find out how Einstein figures into this.....


Madscientist :: Einstein for President

What is odd to me is that those who make these "such-and-such a Republican- or Conservative- is dumb" arguments apparently don't have the self-reflection to notice how such arguments feed the perception of liberals as elitists.  Once, long ago, someone argued to me that since intellectuals (he was referring to academics, actually) tend to be leftists, then leftist ideas must be better than rightist ideas, and leftist politicians must be smarter than rightist politicians.  I think this notion haunts these discussions.  At least I hope it is not the mere psychological egotism of "she disagrees with me so she must be dumb."

C., P., and K. all sounded as if an IQ test should be required of anyone pursuing the presidency, perhaps with some cutoff score to be made a qualification by amendment to the Constitution.  (I am aware, and you should be also, that none of these people think this is a sufficient condition.)  P. offered that "I want a President who's smarter than I am.  I'm smart enough to know that it's a job which requires more brains than I've got."  My bet is that there are presidents that P. admires that didn't have her brains!

And, in fact, i don't think it is a matter of brains.  Best estimates put Bush's "brains" slightly higher than Jack Kennedy's brains.  The argument that is offensive here is not so much about brains, as about being "intellectual."  As if the skills required to handle the presidency have to do with whether you regularly read books like Jacob Burckhardt's The Civilization of the Renaissance in Italy.  (You've all read it, of course.)

P. offered that she had honed her intelectual skills "by working my ass off in college and law school."  This may be true, but if I were need a lawyer, I wouldn't look for an intellectual, nor would I rule out an intellectual.  What i would look for is a lawyer with technical legal skills, one who was likely to win my case or solve my legal problem.  I might worry if a lawyer told me he or she spent his or her time in law school concentrating on honing intellectual skills;  I'd be more interested in a lawyer who spent more time honing legal skills.  I'd probably find "I was the top student in my class in moot court" more compelling than "while in law school, I studied all of Plutarch's Lives."

My brother had a SO who was a physician.  When he passed his boards to be an internist, he told my brother, "Thank God.  Now I'll never have to read another book."  My brother eventually broke up with him because, as he put it, although the sex was clinically delicious, the Doc provided no intellectual stimulation for him.  His technical skill as a doctor were good enough that he was admitted to a prestigious group practice and had plenty of patients.  Apparently he had spent his time in medical school avoiding honing his intellectual skills, and instead honing his skills as a physician.

I repeat these cases to make a similar case about candidates for the presidency.  Don't we want someone who has the skills necessary to carry out the functions of the presidency?  What requisites are required?

I believe that the requisites are somewhat subjective, and, unlike the two cases cited, somewhat unknowable.  The presidency being a sui generis position, it is hard to delineate any prior experience which would act as a job qualification.  So the question really is "What do you think the requisites for a president are?"  (Serious ones, of course, not adherence to a certain political belief system or membership of a certain party.  We're looking for personal characteristics.)  Certainly a level of intelligence is required, but is intelligence or intellectualism the most important requirement.  Would we eliminate anyone with a recorded IQ score lower than, say, 120, like John Kennedy?

P. adds this:

...I also don't believe that an Ivy League degree is a necessary or sufficient qualification for the job of President.  Not all people with Ivy League educations are brilliant (and yes, I think Bush was a legacy student, who by his own admission didn't work hard at school), and I know many brilliant people with degrees from lesser schools, or without any formal higher education.

This adds nuance and complexity to the other quote of hers I provided.  We should follow her here.

But there is the "legacy admission" language, so popular in 2004.  Oddly, that year, those using this language always seemed to fail to note that John Kerry was also a legacy admission, at least on the same evidence as that for Bush.  We don't know if either was admitted only because they had an in.  

But let me make the same argument another way:

"...and yes, I think that [so-and-so] was an affirmative action student..."

Basically the same argument.  Perhaps Hillary was an affirmative action student, or maybe even Barack.  Would anyone care?

One thing for sure, when Bush was admitted to the highly-regarded Harvard Business School for graduate work, he was not admitted as a legacy student.

K. offers, referring to Bush and Palin:

They are certainly not intellectuals and I do not see that either are particularly well educated, despite Bush's degrees and where they came from.

I think that they're both intellectually lazy and relatively uneducated compared to most other politicians.

I'm tempted to say something fairly nasty, like "are you sure that looking down your nose hasn't perturbed your view?"  Please lay out the education you think is requisite for the presidency.  How does Kerry figure into this?

The question arises:  are there any Republican or Conservative candidates smart enough to be president?  Intellectual enough?  Who would garner our defense against attacks on his intelligence or intellectualism?  Can one be a Republican or Conservative and be an intellectual?  Would William F. Buckley, another Yale graduate, and one who published a best-selling book right after graduation, be intellectual enough to be president?

Should we allow anyone to be president who is not thoroughly familiar with the films of Sergei Eisenstein?

Eisenstein?  That's almost like 'Einstein!'

So what about Einstein?  AS some of you know, in 1952, Albert was offered the presidency of Israel.  I first heard of this in an article which argued that far from the half-crazed genius teetering on the brink of mental illness he was often portrayed, he was in fact, the picture of mental health.  He had a clear picture of himself and his abilities.  He turned down the offer.

Here is part of a Time article from 1952, describing the event:

Forgotten in the enthusiasm was the fact that Einstein, though sympathetic to Israel, had never been an ardent Zionist; he believed in a bi-nationalism that meant "friendly and fruitful coexistence with the Arabs." He does not even know Hebrew, official language of the new state.

Able, chubby Envoy Abba Eban got on the phone to Albert Einstein in Princeton, N.J. Einstein, 73 years old, a naturalized U.S. citizen, listened, paused, and then gave his regretful no. The next day he wrote to Eban that he was deeply touched by the Israeli offer, but never undertook functions he could not fill to his satisfaction. He liked studying the physical world, he added, but, "I have neither the natural ability nor the experience to deal with human beings."

Is Einstein right?  Could it be that it is more important that a candidate be someone we could share a beer with than that he be very intelligent or intellectual?  (And, yes, that's beer, not that sissified wine.)  Think about it.  Beer with:

Kennedy?  Absolutely!  Nixon?  Not so much.

LBJ?  Absolutely.  He might ask you what fuckin' beer you wanted.  Goldwater?  Maybe not so much.

Nixon?  Not really.  Humphrey?  Maybe a little more.  But this one may have gone counter, and we see what happened.

Nixon?  Not so much.  McGovern?  One doesn't need moral lectures over a beer.

Carter?  I don't think he drank.  Ford?  Yes, but i don't think he was perceived that way, despite the best efforts of SNL.

Reagan?  Absolutely.  It's the Irish blarney.  Anyone who could broadcast "live" football games using the wire reports would make a great beer companion.  (Heck, once, when the wire went down, the fog in his "stadium" became so thick that he couldn't see the field!)  Carter?  Don't think so.

Reagan?  Yep.  Mondale?  Don't think so.

Bush the elder.  Iffy, but he would have great war stories, always good over beer.  Dukakis?  Does he even know what a beer is?

Clinton.  He'd be absolutely great.  Anyone who could say, "It depends on what the meaning of is, is" would get a beer on me any time.  Bush the elder can't stand up to Clinton on this score.

Clinton?  Absolutely.  Dole?  Very good, but no Clinton.

Bush?  He was certainly percieved that way, no matter what those prejudiced against him think.  Those who travelled with him, like the press corps and Pelosi's daughter, loved being with him.  Gore?  You've got to be kidding me.  Like having a beer with a wooden Indian.

Bush?  Yes.  Kerry?  Just think of Jon Stewert's snoring whenever they show a clip of Kerry speaking.  "Who is it that doesn't love a finely crafted ale, fully hopped, malted to perfection..........."

Obama?  Yes, yes, yes.  Heck, we've even seen him drinking a beer as president.  He might take you out back for a game of horse.  McCain?  He's no Obama.

Finally, Palin?  Absolutely!  And that is what her critics don't get, and what Einstein would.  in fact, I'd love to spend a night down at the local dive with Sarah and Hillary, knocking back a few.

How many presidents have been only children?  The answer is "none."  Three, FDR, Ford, and Clinton had only half siblings.  Does this tie into Einstein's insight?  

So, growing up with other children in the family may be the truest requisite.  

But being as smart as Einstein (or Eisenstein) is not, IMO.

What's your "O."


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Einstein for President | 31 comments
For those of you (9.00 / 5)
who have not decided to boycott anything i write.  I hope you find these musings worthy.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


Mad, (0.00 / 0)
thanks for the diary.

I often appreciate contrarian views and anytime someone references Abba Eban in a MLW diary... well... what can I say?

It doesn't happen very often.

As in, never.

Per the content, I do not think that a US president must be an intellectual.  That is, I do not think that a US president must be a scholar.

I do like educated and thoughtful, tho.

Palin does not strike me as educated and thoughtful.

George W. Bush does not strike me as educated and thoughtful.

Barack Obama is clearly educated and thoughtful, but this is not, unfortunately, saving him from fucking up.

He's educated and thoughtful and, imo, fucking up... at least in certain areas.

But I still prefer educated and thoughtful.

Is that wrong?


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Or is it that Palin (0.00 / 0)
is educated and thoughtful... but doing a very good job of hiding it.

That could be.

It's possible that when Katie Couric asked her what newspapers she reads she was thinking, "Well, Jesus H. Cookies, the Times, the Post, the New Republic... Ha'aretz... I better not say that.  It will come off as snobbery.  Hmmm?  I know!  Make this a regional class issue."

I read 'em all!

You read them all?

Ayep!

We have newspapers up in Alaska, too.  We have newspapers and telephones and washing machines and microwave ovens.  What?  You think that us Alaskans are backwoods schmucks?  You think that we're uneducated, uncouth troglodytes?

.
.
.

In any case, I am enjoying Palin's ongoing presence on the national scene.  It's very entertaining, really.

Particularly her feuds.

At last count, she's feuding with McCain and his campaign staffers, her ex-son in law, David Letterman, Keith Olbermann, and I'm sure there must be others.

I say, keep the circus going!

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[ Parent ]
Feuds? (0.00 / 0)
I think you have a different meaning for the term than i do.  Even the Letterman thing has more to do with Letterman not letting it go than anything Palin has said.

": a mutual enmity or quarrel that is often prolonged or inveterate; especially : blood feud"

Sorry, i just don't see the mutual depth of enmity and prolonged character that i associate with this word.

Here's the thing, karma:  don't you think that it is more than coincidence that you find that politicians you disagree with are not "educated and thoughtful" while you find those with whom you agree to be very much educated and thoughtful.  

Let's test that theory.  Does Ronald Reagan seem to you educated and thoughtful?  If you were around politically in 1952 and beyond, don't you think you would have been in the chorus of those who found Eisenhower to be uneducated and unthoughtful?  He was certainly no egghead like his opponent.  (Imagine that:  the Democrats in their wisdom ran an egghead named "Adlai" against a war hero general they tried to portray as stupid and lost--twice!)

And now, another chance to answer the question you ducked: can you name any Republicans or conservatives who are educated and thoughtful, and, if they ran for president, you would defend against those who tried to say that they were not smart enough or intellectual for the job of president?

Is it really true that anyone who disagrees with you politically is, ipso facto, unfit to be president, and that his political beliefs are good evidence that he is not educated of thoughtful.

Right off that bat, I've got to say that I have a hard time calling someone who holds a degree from Yale, and an advanced degree from Harvard, "uneducated."  That's really the kind of thing I'd expect to hear from those who have no respect for those two institutions, as if they are so incompetent that they grant degrees to those who learn nothing, may be because they can't tell who learns from who doesn't.  It's almost a definition of Chutzpah!

As for thoughtful, if you mean to say merely that so-and-so doesn't strike you as thoughtful, and are prepared to say why you think that way, I'm fine with that.  But that statement is more about you than about the person, unless you have spent some personal time with them.

So, until you can revise my view of this, I think your statement, "I still prefer educated and thoughtful" to mean, in reality, "I take the fact that i prefer them to mean they are educated and thoughtful, and that fact that i don't prefer others to mean that they are uneducated and unthoughtful."  

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Hey Mad, (0.00 / 0)
thanks for the reply.

As for feuds, well, it's sort of a "made for tv movie" in this case.

Of course, much of this is not real feuding.  For Letterman and Olbermann these feuds... would you prefer the word "disputes"?... these disputes are more about ratings than anything else.


Here's the thing, karma:  don't you think that it is more than coincidence that you find that politicians you disagree with are not "educated and thoughtful" while you find those with whom you agree to be very much educated and thoughtful.
 

There are all sorts of conservatives that I find educated and thoughtful.

If, say, George Will ran for President, I would never accuse him of being anything less.  

It's not that I find conservatives uneducated and unthoughtful, I just find Palin and Bush to be so.

I recognize, of course, that these are fairly subjective terms.

So, until you can revise my view of this, I think your statement, "I still prefer educated and thoughtful" to mean, in reality, "I take the fact that i prefer them to mean they are educated and thoughtful, and that fact that i don't prefer others to mean that they are uneducated and unthoughtful."
 

I do not doubt that many people feel that way.  That is, I do not doubt that many liberal elitist fops... with their fancy-schmancy ways of preparing chicken wings... think like this.

I'm not so certain that I do, tho.

One of my very least favorite conservatives is William Kristol, but I certainly agree that he is well-educated and a thinker... which is what I mean by "thoughtful" in this discussion.

I think that Mike Huckubee, believe it or not, might actually a pretty well educated and thoughtful guy, too, tho I would need to learn more about him to really draw that conclusion.

Certainly among the "values voters" people, Alan Keyes is so.

And I bet he would like my chicken wings!



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[ Parent ]
Oh, and needless to say, (7.00 / 1)
I find our own Phil I. Stine to be an educated and thoughtful man, as well.

Very much so.

So,what do ya say to that, smart guy?

:O)

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[ Parent ]
OK, Karma (0.00 / 0)
I agree with you on Wills.  I disagree on Keyes.  He's too much of an ideologue to be considered thoughtful, IMO.

I appreciate your response, but i was looking more for politicians.  Someone who could run for president.  Any of the conservative or Republican senators?  (These two labels overlap.)

Remember this gem from Nietzsche?

Not suited tobe a party man.--Anyone who thinks a great deal is not suited to be a party man.  He soon thinks his way right through the party.

If this were the criteria for judging thoughtfulness, Arlen Specter would be the most thoughtful Senator now serving.  He's thought his way through two parties!

I agree that Obama is thoughtful.  He has been described as "deliberative" since before he was a presidential candidate.  By that is meant that he sees and understands the other sides of issues.  It is just an easy step from deliberativeness to thoughtfulness.  And we might postulate that deliberativeness in this sense is a necessary but not sufficient condition for thoughtfulness.  Thus, the easy test of thoughtfulness would be to ask a person to explain the positions opposed to his in the strongest possible terms.

But you have to admit that if you are looking for thoughtfulness, politics is not the place to search, for the most part.  Anyone for whom you can predict a position on an issue without their speaking is, on prima facie evidence, not thoughtful.  And that describes the majority of people in politics, and those who talk about politics.

To say it another way, using one's intelligence, even if it is considerable, to find and hone arguments for one's position is NOT a sign of thoughtfulness.  It is a sign of unthoughtfulness.  The thoughtful person considers all sides, and is open to modifying his position in light of the arguments and concerns of those whose positions differ from his.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Mad, (0.00 / 0)
I have a number of questions.

I'm not exactly sure that I understand your distinction between deliberateness and thoughtfulness... or thinkerhood, perhaps?

{Oy.}

In other words, you seem to suggest that a deliberative person might not be able to present the strong opposing case, but a thinker could.

Is that what you are saying?

At the same time, the deliberative person, according to your interpretation, can see both sides.

I do not get the distinction.

Also, when a person sees all sides on an issue, does this not undermine activism?  Does it not undermine the potential to bring about necessary reforms?

Is there not a fundamental tension between understanding and activism?  

I think that there is and it is the difference between honestly approaching an issue versus propaganda.

There is a dilemma at the heart of what you are talking about, because reform requires activism and activists require propaganda.

Am I wrong?

In any case:

The thoughtful person considers all sides, and is open to modifying his position in light of the arguments and concerns of those whose positions differ from his.

Communism!



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[ Parent ]
Karma (5.00 / 1)
I'm not exactly sure that I understand your distinction between deliberateness and thoughtfulness... or thinkerhood, perhaps?

I like 'thinkerhood.'  I take the meaning of 'deliberateness' as it was applied to obama, that is, a willingness and ability to really listen to and understand all views, even those opposed to your position, and to see the merits and concerns in those views.

One needn't necessarily continue on to actually thinking about all the views.  For instance, one could use this deliberateness merely as a tactic to advance one's own view.

Way back in 1983, I had a debate with Creationist Ken Ham.  Despite the fact that he had his engineer friend with him, i was able to skewer him with a refutation of his argument from Newton's laws.  I next ran into him two years later, and he had developed a counter to arguments like mine.  This has been his mode of operation since.  There is no chance that he is going to change his view because of an opposing argument.

So, I would say that on this issue and others (age of the earth, for instance), he is deliberative, but not thoughtful.

Also, when a person sees all sides on an issue, does this not undermine activism?  Does it not undermine the potential to bring about necessary reforms?

Is there not a fundamental tension between understanding and activism?  

With a little fleshing out, this would make a good, and serious question of the day!

So I'll not deeply discuss this here.  
But i would ask whether you think that if this is true, then an activist must keep he and those committed to the changes he wants in a state of nonunderstanding, or, more likely, a state of understanding just tose things that feed the activism.  If so, you can see why Hitler, Lenin, Mao, Stalin, and Saddam Hussein easily became the way they were with regards to the understanding of their peoples.

I think that there is and it is the difference between honestly approaching an issue versus propaganda.

I agree.  I believe that Obama is both deliberative and thoughtful, even though he is reliably liberal.  Ken Ham, on the other hand, while being deliberative, is not thoughtful, and a propagandist.

(Note here that we seem to be using the newer meaning of 'propaganda,' with its negative connotations.  It is also possible to use this word in its original sense, which means "propagation" (of the faith).  So, it is possible to come to a thoughtful conclusion, and then propagate that conclusion in the original sense.  I would argue, however, that including the opposing arguments along with one's recognition of their concerns and strengths, along with the reasons you ultimately concluded differently, would be the strongest form of propaganda in this sense.  But for those who habitually think that people are stupid except for themselves and those like them, they would not see this as the best use of propaganda.)

So...

I think that there is and it is the difference between honestly approaching an issue versus propaganda.

I might be convinced of this only if 'propaganda' is used in the original sense, that is, the propagation of the truth by truthful means.

But this is certainly the nut of a dilemma maybe, and a very interesting question.

And, of course, I can't resist the urge to point out that the quote of mine you pulled down:

The thoughtful person considers all sides, and is open to modifying his position in light of the arguments and concerns of those whose positions differ from his.

is exactly the opposite of Communism, which thoroughly embraced propaganda in the newer sense.

At the heart of this is an old Christian conundrum:  What if you could tell one lie (or, if you like it more serious, commit one murder) which would convince the entire world to adopt Chri8stianity and live a moral life, and insure that each person attains heaven, while you would go to hell?  Would you do it?  Would that not be the ultimate Christian act?

I think many who commit propaganda in the pejorative sense make a similar calculation, excusing their lies in the propaganda.  

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Mad, (0.00 / 0)
I am chewing on this.

I am.

It is also midnight and I have to catch an aeroplane tomorrow morning so that I can do without my vices and endeavor to make pleasant chit-chat with Laurie's siblings over Thanksgiving... as I compliment the damn potatoes!

:O)


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[ Parent ]
Have fun, Karma (9.00 / 1)
I mean that.

Even boring people are interesting.  I mean, just what makes a particular person so boring?  Or irritating?

They are all characters for that great American novel you are going to write.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
There's Mad again (0.00 / 0)

Always looking for the best in people.

So, until you can revise my view of this, I think your statement, "I still prefer educated and thoughtful" to mean, in reality, "I take the fact that i prefer them to mean they are educated and thoughtful, and that fact that i don't prefer others to mean that they are uneducated and unthoughtful."

Do you have any idea how arrogant you are?

Pee for your Corporate Overlords



[ Parent ]
I'll take comfort (0.00 / 0)
in the fact that YOU have no idea how arrogant (or anything else) I am.  You nmever describe me at all, instead describing some fictional character you manufactured out of your prejudice.  That way, you are not required to think, grow, or learn with regard to me.

Fact is, as i am sure you will take pains to NOT understand, that i treated Karma with respect.  I said exactly how it looked to me, and invited him to disabuse me of the notion.

Rather than taking any offense, he seems to have had the brains to understand what I was doing, and took me up on the offer.

btw, do you realize how arrogant you seem in these posts?

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
You're a dick (0.00 / 0)

Instead of asking Karma if that's what's going on, you take the authoritative position that that is precisely what's going on and place the burden upon him to persuade you otherwise. That's arrogant. Hope this helps.

Pee for your Corporate Overlords



[ Parent ]
So what, digdug? (9.00 / 1)
I enjoy engaging with Mad.

Is Mad arrogant?

Well, holy moly, this is the left political tubes.

Ya can't swing a dead cat without hitting arrogant.

Lighten up, dude.

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[ Parent ]
You may enjoy engaging with Mad (0.00 / 0)

despite his style, but his style applies to everyone, not just you.

We don't write just for each other here.

Pee for your Corporate Overlords



[ Parent ]
Fact is, ddb (0.00 / 0)
We can and often do write just for each other.

This particular post is aimed directly for you, as is evidenced by the fact that your name is in the title.  If I were to include here something for those casually reading, I might include "isn't that right, you all?" in the post.

I might include this:  "It's because you are a Jooooo!" in a post to Karma.  This is part of a running joke.  I would hesitate to include this in a post aimed at another Jew.  Our communications are based on history in part.

Someone new to the board may see that comment or one like it and take offense.  Perhaps they should take offense.  Someone would then explain the history and joke nature of the line.

As I see it, digdugboy, the difference between us is that i don't usually intend to be arrtogant, rude, or abrasive, while you are intentionally so, it seems.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
So digdugboy (0.00 / 0)
You call me a name, "dick" in this case.  Of course, this is rude (and being a dick) in and of itself.

Instead of asking me if that's what is going on, you take the authoritative position that that is what is going on, and then, you don't have the courtesy to invite me to refute it.  Instead, you seem to think that since it is your word, it is beyond refutation.

There is a difference.  I did NOT take an authoritative position.  I told Karma how it seemed to me./  The fact that I invited him to disabuse me of how it seemed to me should tell you that the position is not authoritative, and certainly not as authoritative as you seem to be in every post.  Further, the invitation should tell you that i expect Karma to be able to do it.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
A Scooby HUNH? (0.00 / 0)
     You asked: "Or is it that Palin
is educated and thoughtful... but doing a very good job of hiding it."

    "That could be."

    Pretty good snark in that! I've been hearing the right wingnuts who bring the subject up that palin is the only great white repug hope, and I hope to Dog that that it will be (Better dem than obama) VS palin in 2012

    Palin is just a fart in the hurricane of deliberate and proudful ignorance that defines the repug party these days.

    And like you, I also laugh at the pathetic ethos of a racist repug party that allowed an ignorant, racist pig like palin to be a preznit contender.

    Because I hope to Dog that the moronic palin is the racist repug great white hope in 2012, Gotta say: "Bring it on".

       


[ Parent ]
I disagree (7.00 / 3)
This may not win me any points among the zombie-fetishists, but I categorically reject the idea of electing a dead person to the Presidency.


Insert witty quote here.

So good, I'll answer twice (8.50 / 2)
Very funny.  Here we go:

Answer #1:

We have never had a dead person as president, but we've come close.  When President Garfield was shot in 1881, he lingered for 80 days.  During that time, he was largely incapacitated, tending to just one item of presidential business.  As it happens, for most of that time, Congress was also out of session.  Wags of the day tell us that the government never ran more smoothly.

So maybe electing a dead person isn't such a bad idea.  We have, in America, often voted for dead people, and occasionally elected one.  I don't remember any prohibition in the Constitution against electing a dead person.  All it seems to require is that the president be a natural born American citizen, and that he have attained the age of 35 years.

Of course, this eliminates Einstein, who was not a natural born American citizen.  But may i propose Abraham Lincoln?  He certainly meets the Constitutional requirements.

And remember, the Constitution tells us what to do when a president dies in office, but it says nothing about the necessity of doing anything when a dead person is elected president.  After all, a dead person couldn't possibly die in office, could he?

If we decided that we abs0olutely needed some presidential input, we could get James van Praagh to make contact with the dead president.  I can hear it now....

"Yes, Abraham has a message...is there someone named "coffee?"... no, i mean, someone named "Joe?"  There is?  Ok.  I see a number 2... Somebody with something in twos?  No, now I see, it's 'bi'  Joe Bicave>  Maybe it's Bilair..no, Biden"  Yes, that's it.  Abraham would like to tell Joe Biden to...I'm having trouble...  watch his...this doesn't make sense....watch his mouth?  Does that mean anything to anyone?...."

Answer #2:

But of course the reference was to Einstein's being asked to be president of Israel in 1952.  The fact that Time reported that he talked to Eban on the phone, and quoted his reply, is at least some indication that he was alive at the time.

[See.  You answered me humourly, so I answered with mock seriousness in this second answer as a joke.]

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
President? (0.00 / 0)
Why bother with such a low level place.  I want the CIA.

Surfing the Apocalypse-So you don't have to!

Madsci (5.00 / 2)
Here's a recent argument made by Sarah Palin: "If God had not intended for us to eat animals, how come He made them out of meat?"

Perhaps people are quick to call someone unintelligent when they make weak arguments or hold ignorant positions, but well, I think some of Palin's arguments are less than persuasive. (Did God intend for us to eat children too because they're made out of meat?). Is she unintelligent? Well it depends upon what you mean by intelligence, there are varying views on that in the field of psychology.

Perhaps people are more interested in electing a leader based upon their wisdom than intelligence. But, it could be that they're calling wisdom intelligence, instead of confused about what they are looking for.  

-deano


I truly question the intelligence (0.00 / 0)
of anyone who thinks that this obviously flippant statement by Palin is meant to be an "argument."

Let's look at the context:

If any vegans came over for dinner, I could whip them up a salad, then explain my philosophy on being a carnivore.  If God had not intended for us to eat animals, how come He made them out of meat?  I love meat.  I eat pork chops, thick bacon burgers, and the seared fatty edges of a medium-well-done steak. But I especially love moose and caribou. I always remind people from outside our state that there's plenty of room for all Alaska's animals -- right next to the mashed potatoes.

A vegetarian blogger named Daelyn Fortney responded in all seriousness:

Unfortunately Palin's viewpoints on vegetarianism is not only narrow minded but is also widely shared. The cliché portrait of a vegetarian meal predominately includes a huge bowl of salad flanked only by a glass of water and carrot wedges. The plethora of food options available to those who have forgone meat is endless but mostly ignored by the masses.

That would be the stupid masses, I presume.  She goes on to say:

Palin's view on animals as being just meat is also shared by a considerable portion of our country. Her statement will surely receive a chuckle and thumbs up from many avid hunters and steak house patrons. It is a sad statement on our society when we applaud those who refer to animals as the centerpiece of their dinner plate.

A "carnivore", as Palin refers to herself, does not have to change their lifestyle for a vegetarian but tolerance would be greatly appreciated.  Needless to say PETA will not be sending the former vice presidential candidate a Christmas card this year.

Posting here.

This is quite presumptuous.  Apparently, Miss Fortney thinks that if she saw a dog at Palin's house and asked her about her pet, Palin would say, "That's no pet.  We're just raising him for the meat."

Further, Palin seems to have more tolerance for vegans than Miss Fortney has for Palin's "carnivore" views.

The next day, Miss Fortney responded to some comments she had gotten, Including this one:  "You liberals and militant vegs. apparently need a humor transplant."

I do have a sense of humor, just not one that is displayed when discussing the animals of an entire state being used as a main course.

During President Ronald Reagan's Farewell Address to the Nation he stated, "All great change in America begins at the dinner table." Truer words have never been spoken. I choose meatless meals at my table. How we treat living things and what we choose to put on our dinner plate is a window into our inner being.

Response here.

I think the commenter was dead right.  sometimes our passions, dietary and political, rob us of a sense of humour.

But what could we tell of your inner being from your dinner plate?  (Confession:  I don't eat the flesh, bone, or sinew of any sentient being.)

One more thing:  You say:

Did God intend for us to eat children too because they're made out of meat?

This comment is silly for at least two reasons:

1) It mistakes Palin's flippant comment for a serious argument; and

2) We don't normally think of children, or any human, as being made out of meat.

For instance, if you child were to sustain a deep cut to the thigh requiring first aid and emergency medical attention, no one, not even you, is likely to say, "Oh, look.  look at all that juice coming out of her ham meat."

Even when humans are eaten, we don't normally refer to it as "human meat being eaten."  We say, "members of the Donner party ate some of their dead companions to survive."

So, my question is simple:  who is stupider:  Sarah Palin or those who took this joke for a serious argument?  Further, what motive would anyone have for so taking it?

Geesh!



"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
FYI (0.00 / 0)
You're comment is too rude for me to respond.

-deano

[ Parent ]
Odd, deano (0.00 / 0)
I tried to respond in the same tone you used, but dialed back on your rudeness.

Since most of my comment was aimed at Miss Fortney and people like her, would you like me to apologize to her?  For what?

Let me just say, in your vein, that I find weak arguments funded by the notion that this flippant comment of hers is a serious argument to be a weak argument and an unintelligent position.  Saying that is no more rude than you were in your comment (since, for one, it uses the same language).  Right?

Is this a case of you can do it, but no one else can?  A case of whose ox is gored (although there wasn't much goring going on, in fact)?

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
How was I rude? (6.00 / 1)
I proposed an alternate explanation for why people may call someone unintelligent, because they may find someone's arguments to be ignorant or unpersuasive and then declare that the person is unintelligent. The only potentially "rude" thing I said was that I found some of Palin's arguments to be less than persuasive, but I don't think that is very rude at all. Heck, it's my duty as a citizen to scrutinize public figures, and my opinions were formed while she was running for vice-president of my country.

What I don't understand is why you reacted in such an intrusive, condescending and abrasive way to me personally. I didn't say anything mean spirited to you.  

-deano


[ Parent ]
Thanks, deano (0.00 / 0)
for answering.  As i indicated (when i indicated I didn't think much goring was going on), I didn't think there was much rudeness.  What i was saying is that i didn't think i was rude, and what i said to you mirrored what you said.

So, I can ask you the same question:  how was i rude?

The very first reference to you in my note is the remark about reading inner being in a dinner plate.  I didn't think you'd agree with Miss Fortney, so I was like soliciting your skepticism on the issue.

Then i called you comment silly, by which i meant "ignorant and unpersuasive", and i told you why i thought that.

First, it is ignorant in that it seems to assume that Palin's comment (to which i provided context) was anything more than a joke.  Of course, this doesn't imply a global ignorance, nor even an intellectual ignorance.  It is a kind of social ignorance.  And, truth be told, I wonder how it comes about.

You see, I can hear Obama make the same joke, and i am sure it would be taken as a joke by the same people who are treating Palin's remark as some kind of serious argument.

Secondly, it is unpersuasive because because we don'[t normally talk about human flesh the same way we talk about animal flesh AND because even if we did, it wouldn't be a refutation of Palin's remark even if it were a serious argument.

But basically, we usually don't refute jokes.

So, you said:

The only potentially "rude" thing I said was that I found some of Palin's arguments to be less than persuasive

On that, i would agree.  Of course, I find many people's arguments less than persuasive, and sometimes outright silly.  But before i decide that an argument is ignorant and weak, I want to determine if it is an argument made in all seriousness.

Try this famous argument:

Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the 'old one'. I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice.

Of course this is Einstein's (see, i brought him back into the thread again!) very serious argument disputing quantum mechanics because the theory places probability not so much in our observations, but at the core of reality.

I find Einstein's argument here to be ignorant and completely unpersuasive.  Should I, as you suggest some persons do, go on to then conclude that Einstein is unintelligent?

So, I ask you once again the two questions at the end, which are meant to be serious questions and not abrasive, intrusive, condescending, or rude in any way.  I ask them because i want your opinion, especially on the second.  i wouldn't ask someone unless i valued their answer.

So, my question is simple:  who is stupider:  Sarah Palin or those who took this joke for a serious argument?  Further, what motive would anyone have for so taking it?

I am also interested in why you think anyone would quote just this one line, rather than the line in context.  Noe that i am not aiming this at you, who I bet simply repeated the one line quote as you found it.  I am talking about those who found the one line in context and chose to quote only the one line.  Why would any honest person do that?

As for mean-spirited, I don't believe you were mean-spirited toward me.  But I did sense (perhaps wrongly) mean-spiritedness toward Sarah Palin in offering this flippant line as if it were a serious argument.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Madsci (0.00 / 0)
Sorry I never got back to you on this, hopefully in the future we'll get along better.

Cheers,

-deano


[ Parent ]
Did she really say that, deano? (6.00 / 1)
Ah-ha-ha-ha!!!

I LOVE this woman!

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Lord of the Karmafishes


[ Parent ]
Hey, Karma (0.00 / 0)
do me a favour and read the whole (but short) exchange between deano and me.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Einstein for President | 31 comments


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