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Hasan killed after war crime prosecutions rejected

by: fairleft

Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 13:22:30 PM PST



Photobucket

Hasan wanted patients to face war crimes charges

Fort Hood massacre suspect Nidal Malik Hasan sought to have some of his patients prosecuted for war crimes based on statements they made during psychiatric sessions with him, a captain who served on the base said Monday. . . .

It wasn't clear Monday what information Hasan received from patients and what became of his requests for prosecution. ABC News, citing anonymous sources, reported that his superiors rejected the requests, and that investigators suspect this triggered the shootings.

Hasan may have been legally justified in reporting what patients disclosed, said Patrick McLain, a Dallas lawyer who specializes in military defense work and is not involved in the Hasan case. But it's impossible to be sure without knowing exactly what they said, he added.

"He was right on his authority to report it," said the ex-Marine, who formerly served as a court-martial judge. The Army teaches all service members that they have a duty to report evidence of war crimes.

War crimes? Our heroes commit war crimes? Start here: War criminality, in U.S. soldiers' words. A bit of the soldier testimony from that diary:

Afghanistan:

"Anyone carrying a shovel or any sort of implement that could be used to bury an IED could be considered a target. After dark, you can shoot anyone who is outside."

Iraq:

"There were massive amounts of artillery strikes before we even invaded. We saw the results of that. Streets full of bodies - women and children - body parts, extremely indiscriminate. I'm talking about rolling through villages here, not military encampments."

". . . at one point, anyone who was described as a suspicious observer would be a legitimate target, anyone holding a cell phone, binoculars, or at one point, anyone out after curfew, and this led to an incident where Marines were firing at firefighters and cops silhouetted against a fire that our indirect fire had caused who were trying to help out the civilians that were being affected by that fire."

Below is additional testimony by three U.S. Iraq veterans, but I don't think it's different in Afghanistan:


fairleft :: Hasan killed after war crime prosecutions rejected

Vincent Emanuele: An act that took place quite often in Iraq was that of taking pop shots at cars that drove by. Our rules of engagement stated that we should first fire warning shots into the ground in front of the car, then the engine block, and then the driver and passengers.

Most of the time, however, the shots made their way straight to those very individuals in the car.

Jon Michael Turner:

On April 18, 2006, I had my first confirmed killed. This man was innocent. I don't know his name. I called him "the fat man." He was walking back to his house, and I shot him in front of his friend and his father. The first round didn't kill him, after I had hit him up here in his neck area. And afterwards he started screaming and looked right into my eyes. So I looked at my friend, who I was on post with, and I said, "Well, I can't let that happen." So I took another shot and took him out. He was then carried away by the rest of his family. It took seven people to carry his body away.

There was one incident, where we got into a firefight just south of the government center about 2,000 meters. We had no idea where the fire was coming from. And the way our rules of engagement were, pinpoint where the fire is coming from and throw a rocket at it. So, at that being said, we still didn't know where the fire was coming from, and an eighty-four-millimeter rocket was shot into a house. I do not know if there was anyone in it. We do not know if that's where the fire was coming from. But that's what was done.

I just want to say that I am sorry for the hate and destruction that I have inflicted on innocent people, and I'm sorry for the hate and destruction that others have inflicted on innocent people. At one point, it was OK. But reality has shown that it's not and that this is happening and that until people hear about what is going on with this war, it will continue to happen and people will continue to die. I am sorry for the things that I did. I am no longer the monster that I once was.

Jason Hurd:
And there was one of those buildings that was sort of dilapidated; however, we knew that squatters had taken this building over, and we actually used to make jokes that this place looked like a crack house and that they were running drugs out of there. We had no evidence of that; it was just joking.

One day, Iraqi police got into an exchange of gunfire with some unknown individuals around that building. Some of the stray rounds came across the Tigris River and hit the shield of one of our Hummers. The gunner atop that Hummer decided to open fire with his fifty-caliber machinegun into that building. He expended about a case and a half of ammunition. And I'm no weapons expert-I'm a medic-but I talked to some of my colleagues just the other night, and to put this into perspective for you all, each case of fifty-cal ammunition holds about 150 rounds. A case and a half is well over 200 rounds. Over 200 rounds of fifty-caliber ammunition could take out just about every single person in this room. We fired indiscriminately and unnecessarily at this building. We never got a body count, we never got a casualty count afterwards. Another unit came through and swept up that mess.

Ladies and gentleman, things like that happen every day in Iraq. We react out of fear, fear for our lives, and we cause complete and utter destruction.

Individuals from my unit indiscriminately and unnecessarily opened fire on innocent civilians as they're driving down the road on their own streets. My unit-individuals from my platoon would fire into the grills of these cars and then come back in the evenings after missions were done and brag about it. They would say, "Hey, did you guys see that car I shot at? It spewed radiator fluid all over the ground. Wasn't that cool?" I remember thinking back on that and how appalled I was that we were bragging about these things, that we were laughing, but that's what you do in a combat zone.

P.S. -- From "War Crimes Committed by the United States in Iraq and Mechanisms for Accountability"

"[T]he choices made at more senior levels than the ranks of individual soldiers have created the context in which regular abuses of civilians in occupied Iraq are occurring. It is argued that: the failure to adequately rebuild the civilian and social infrastructure; the failure to provide civilians with appropriate security; and the choices of weapons and tactics often used in military operations all constitute war crimes. Regardless of the rationale for invading and occupying Iraq, the U.S. and British governments, their commanders and all their soldiers in the field are accountable for these grave breaches."

"One reason for the huge numbers of civilian casualties under the U.S. occupation is that U.S. soldiers have often behaved as if they have been told to shoot anything that moves. As noted in the Christian Science Monitor: "The rules of engagement instruct U.S. soldiers to bring withering force to bear on positions they're attacked from, even when an insurgent ducks into a private house for cover" (22). However, many NGOs have attested that private homes and persons who are clearly civilians are attacked without any possible excuse that a particular attack was directed at insurgents."

"Each citizen of the United States is challenged to be willing to recognize first that fellow citizens in the executive branch of the Federal government and in the military have repeatedly violated international law in the invasion and occupation of Iraq. The next step is to open our minds to not only the possibility but the absolute necessity to hold our fellow citizens to account. As noted above, we have a law to do so-the War Crimes Act."


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Amen Fairleft! (3.50 / 2)
It was his depression over the lack of seriousness they took his "War Crimes" dime dropping that made him off those people.

So, by proxy, it's George Bush's fault.

Good stuff, keep it coming.


Since you're against prosecuting U.S. war crimes (0.00 / 0)
you weren't the intended target audience for this diary.

I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

[ Parent ]
Uh-oh. (7.25 / 4)
The two of you in these comments have made so many jumps in logic based on personal animus that the sharks' union has called.

This kind of overtime is simply not in their contract. They protest, quite strongly.

Please, won't anyone support organized labor and think of the sharks?

Thank you.


[ Parent ]
vox (7.00 / 4)
Let's meet over lunch to discuss supporting organized labour.

I know a great Japanese restaurant that makes a great shark's fin soup, served by courteous and obedient illegal workers from Asia.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Uh-oh, 2! (0.00 / 0)
There it is again. It seems in this modern economy, union members just can't catch a break anywhere!

[ Parent ]
Hyperbole (0.00 / 0)
was the intended target for your inane diary.

I didn't respond with knee jerk calls of Islamo-Terror like many but this is inane, self propelled, Anti-American ass covering for the acts of Captain Hasan.

He seemed inclined to perhaps indulge the truth as he violated his patient's confidentiality based on (oh I don't know) his well chronicled "beliefs" against these Wars, no?  Words taken with a bit of salt?

Then again, I wouldn't expect you to give those patients the benefit of the doubt, even with no proof whatsoever.  You're "inclined" to believe the guy who pulled the trigger.


[ Parent ]
His motive is not news, but the press pretending what his motive was is news. (0.00 / 0)
I believe you're in the media, so this news should be particularly important for you. The Dallas News has a story on Nov 17. ABC has a story on Nov. 16. That's the entire mainstream media reporting of Hasan's actual apparent motive. The facts say what I'm saying: this story is not being reported in the mainstream press. Instead we're inundated with speculative crap about how crazed fundamentalism drove this Muslim to kill.

Below is the complete ABC report. When determining 'true' motive and/or 'what the trigger was', it's important to look at timing. All the timing points to Hasan's frustration with non-prosecution of war crimes. It's amazing how much we hear about the frustrated angry Muslim and how we don't hear at all (in the mainstream press) about the frustrated anti-war-crimes guy.

Officials: Major Hasan Sought 'War Crimes' Prosecution of U.S. Soldiers
Rebuffed, Accused Fort Hood Shooter Took Extra Target Practice, Closed Bank Safety Deposit Box in Final Days, Investigators Say
By JOSEPH RHEE, MARY-ROSE ABRAHAM, ANNA SCHECTER, and BRIAN ROSS
Nov. 16, 2009

Major Nidal Malik Hasan's military superiors repeatedly ignored or rebuffed his efforts to open criminal prosecutions of soldiers he claimed had confessed to "war crimes" during psychiatric counseling, according to investigative reports circulated among federal law enforcement officials.

On Nov. 4, the day after his last attempt to raise the issue, he took extra target practice at Stan's shooting range in nearby Florence, Texas and then closed a safe deposit box he had at a Bank of America branch in Killeen, according to the reports. A bank employee told investigators Hasan appeared nervous and said, "You'll never see me again."

Diane Wagner, Bank of America's senior vice president of media relations, said that her company does not "comment or discuss customer relationships" but is "cooperating fully with law enforcement officials."

Investigators believe Hasan's frustration over the failure of the Army to pursue what he regarded as criminal acts by U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan may have helped to trigger the shootings.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/...

I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton


[ Parent ]
Excuse me for entering into what is probably (4.00 / 3)
a private fight...

But.....

Could any self respecting liberal accept the violation of patient-doctor confidentiality?

I mean, isn't that pushing towards the police state that the Left has been arguing against?  We can't have our doctors informing the authorites about the past actions of persons who might potentially be mentally ill, with an eye towards prosecution.

Regardless of his political, religous or philosophical bent, Hasan did not react to any of this in what anyone could possibly consider an appropriate manner.

To write this essay, to insinuate that it was the fault of U.S. policy about the prosecution of war criminals, is...well....almost criminal.

Consider me disgusted.

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish


DA (6.00 / 1)
You are probably disgusted by the actualities of the situation.  The Doctor-patient privilege as it now stands has many holes.  Some items of information (child abuse, for instance) are not only not covered, but mandatorily reportable!

To take a hard case, if their is a serial rapist about in your state, and he confesses to his psychiatrist that he is the rapist, can he invoke the privilege to keep his psychiatrist from contributing to discovery or testifying?  Will the psychiatric record be sealed and protected?

Is there anyone here who thinks that the psychiatrist should go to the police with the information?

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
I don't believe that the psychiatrist (0.00 / 0)
should go to the police with the information.

I do believe, and it has been established in a number of cases (most spectacularly the Menendez Brothers murder case in this state) that the governmnet can use 'statements under Doctor-Patient privilege' as corroboration or after they have developed at least a 'prima facia' case, as testimony.

But to make the psychiatrist, a licensed physician, to report cases in violation of privelege is, IMNSHO, not appropriate.

The child abuse angle that I am aware of does not preclude privelege.  It is required of doctors to report cases of suspected child abuse to authorites, based on physical evidence of such abuse.  The child's privilege does not extend to the parent, and the rights of children in this nation are disputable.

And no, I'm disgusted by an attempt by this author to politicize a tragedy, much as I was when the Bush Administration chose to politicize the tragedy of 911.

I see no difference in the two actions.

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish


[ Parent ]
Agreed, DA (0.00 / 0)
But i don't like the idea of the state using information under privilege even for corroboration.

You have a good point on child abuse, but i am talking about cases where the abuser admits as much to a psychiatrist or doctor.

I would also point out that the priest-confessor privilege is much stronger, but that is because of the priests, not the law.

These privilege privileges (heh-heh) seemed to be covered by mostloy state laws, so it differs state to state.

As for this:

I'm disgusted by an attempt by this author to politicize a tragedy, much as I was when the Bush Administration chose to politicize the tragedy of 911.

I obviously share your disgust, but I wouldn't make this criticism of the Bush administration.  (I am aware that it was an antiBush narrative.)  See, the fact is that no matter what Bush did politically after 911, a critic could say he was politicizing 911.  Likewise, I don't appreciate those who accuse Obama of politicizing the recession (say, by shirking all responsibility to blame it on Bush, or using it to help get his programs passed).  In both cases these were events in the res publica, and necessarily political.  In both cases, these raised practical problems which had to be approached politically.  It's the way our democracy works.  As I always say about these criticisms, (not of the essay writer, of course):  "I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find that there is politics in politics."  To me, saying that a politicians' proposals are "politicizing" something is a way to avoid actually arguing the merits of such a proposal; it sort of signals that we should reject the proposal out of hand without thought.

So, would you say that Obama, Pelosi, and Reid are politicizing our problem with lack of health care coverage for many of our citizens?

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
In answer to your question (0.00 / 0)
yes, I do believe that Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and their erstwhile opponents are all politicizing the lack of health care coverage.

And I don't mean Bush's original acts after 911, I am referring to his and Cheney's constant use of 911 as a political wedge to increase the power of the presidency and the overarching level of state security in this nation.

Oh, and Rudy "911" Giuliani, too!

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish


[ Parent ]
As opposed to (0.00 / 0)
FDR's very legitimate massive increase of the power of the presidency and the overarching level of state security in this nation by using the Depression and then WWII as political wedges.

I don't think either Bush or Cheney would have accepted or sought the low level of presidential power and state security which Hoover had, nor the high level of each that FDR obtained.

btw, what does the word 'constant' mean in the above?

However, I DO agree that both were quite liberal in their approach to governmental and presidential power.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Constant means (0.00 / 0)
that each time they wished to increase their power, they brought up the spectre of 911, of Terrorism.  Rudy Giuliani became a national joke by referencing 911 so many times in his abortive campaign.  The Patriot Act, FISA, military budget, new weapons development were all 'justified' (the quotes mean that I don't by the justification) by 911.

I think I disagree about FDR, to some point, because I can't tell if you were being snarky.  There was, in 1941, a defined enemy, states which had declared war against this nation (the Japanese were a little late with the Declaration).  FDR's increase in power was similar to Lincoln's and Wilson's.

I still feel that the prosecution of our terrorist enemies should have been a combined police/intelligence agency function, not the wholesale use of formed military units.

Also, I don't believe that Obama has politicized the economic crisis as much as he could have.  I believe that the crisis evovled from the 20+ years of supply-side economics combined with the removal of most of the regulations needed to control Corporate America.  This was not just a Bush thing, but it was certainly a large part of the Repbulican Agenda since 1980.

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish


[ Parent ]
DA, I know the narrative (0.00 / 0)
When Bush (and Ted Kennedy) sought to increase the power of the presidency and the federal government with regards to the Education sector, I don't remember Bush (or Kennedy, for that matter) appealing to 911 or terrorism.  So that beats the "each time."

Let's go over the list:

FISA was passed by a Democratic Congress and signed into law by a Democratic president in, i believe, 1978, and has been altered slightly since.  It was meant to and actually did, decrease the power of the presidency and the government, although Attorney General Griffin Bell testified to Congress before its passage that no law like FISA could obliterate the president's powers as Commander in Chief.  (This has become known as the "FISA gap.")  In other words, it is possible for any president to bypass FISA if he can argue that he is relying on his powers as Commander in Chief.

The Patriot Act actually did little more than alter FISA to include newer technology.  Yes, the attacks on 911 did indeed spur a reconsideration of the adequacy of our mechanisms of preventing such attacks.

And generally, when we are attacked and respond militarily, there will be those who suggest that we up the military budget and develop new weapons.  Does this surprise you?

FDR's increase in power was similar to Lincoln's and Wilson's.

You can't be serious.  In 1933, FDR asked for and received from Congress a set of "emergency powers" similar to war time powers.  These remained in effect until at least the Nixon administration!  No president before or since has had this level of power.

Before the war, after TWO(2) Supreme Court decisions made wiretapping illegal, and the Attorney General (future Nuremburg star and Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson) was shutting down the FBI wiretap program, FDR order him to keep the program up and running, saying,

    However, I am convinced that the Supreme Court never intended any dictum in the particular case which it decided to apply to grave matters involving the defense of the nation.

   It is, of course, well known that certain other nations have been engaged in the organization of propaganda of so-called "fifth columns" in other countries and in preparation for sabotage, as well as in actual sabotage.

   It is too late to do anything about it after sabotage, assassinations and "fifth column" activities are completed.

   You are, therefore, authorized and directed in such cases as you may approve, after investigation of the need in each case, to authorize the necessary investigating agents that they are at liberty to secure information by listening devices direct to the conversation or other communications of persons suspected of subversive activities against the Government of the United States, including suspected spies. You are requested furthermore to limit these investigations so conducted to a minimum and to limit them insofar as possible to aliens.

FDR had sought legislation to approve wiretapping in certain cases, but Congress, a Democratic congress known for fauning over FDR, refused.  When they found out that the program was being continued, they demanded information about it.  FDR and Jackson refused to provide any information whatsoever to anyone in Congress.

I still feel that the prosecution of our terrorist enemies should have been a combined police/intelligence agency function, not the wholesale use of formed military units.

I agree.  but remember that we also tasked whatever to prevent attacks at home and abroad, not just prosecute attacks once they happened.  It seems obvious to me that treating terrorism as merely a police and justice matter was wrong.  I suppose the swing to the other side was inevitable, but it seems to me just as silly.  Obviously (at least to me), we need to use all the resources we need and can muster to stop and prosecute terrorists.  I wouldn't rule out military action.

I believe that the crisis evovled from the 20+ years of supply-side economics combined with the removal of most of the regulations needed to control Corporate America.

That's one explanation, and probably part of the explanation.  I blame it on Barney Franks and those of his friends who pushed for wider ownership of homes among those who couldn't afford them.  I think this is part of the explanation also.

In the long run, finger pointing will learn us nothing.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Read the adult discussion of patient/psychotherapist confidentiality (0.00 / 0)
at the version of this diary at http://www.eurotrib.com/story/...

I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

[ Parent ]
Gosh Fairleft (0.00 / 0)
I read it.  What I saw was a lot of people who admitted that what they were saying was speculative, a single quote from the abstract of a law paper, a quote from the UCMJ which had nothing to do with patient/doctor privelege and the quote of a legal precedent which shows that the military may or may not accept privelege.

But what I said is that no self-respecting liberal should accept the privacy violation of patient/doctor privelege.

So, what's yer point?

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish


[ Parent ]
He reported war crimes as he was obligated to do under military law. (0.00 / 0)
So he did. I think the government should prosecute the war crimes he reported, and you don't. I guess you feel your position is liberal, and mine is what, conservative?

One point is that the war crimes committed by U.S. troops may be a greater evil than the non-violation of a civilian doctor-patient relationship. That might depend on the exact nature of those war crimes. I believe Americans should know exactly what war crimes were reported to Hasan. Once we can see and smell the filth we'll be on our war to cleaning it up, which is the right thing to do. That's why most of the diary consists of 'typical' war crime true stories that some Iraq vets have been brave enough to retell.

I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton


[ Parent ]
The title of this post is badly worded. (6.00 / 5)


"Hasan killed after war crimes prosecutions rejected"

immediately made me think Hasan was killed.

Am I the only one? Seriously?

Anyway. As to the rest of it... whatever. I'm so fucking tired of arguing. Is there any QUESTION that the author of this piece is looking for a fight? That the author will FIND a fight wherever and whenever the author WISHES?

I want substantive change in this world, and I am angry, SO angry, at the corruption and vicious abuse of power by the powerful against the powerless in this world... but I SO don't see the point of flapping my arms and gums in a constant state of ire and nonproductivity about it, just to try to make MYSELF feel better about it in some self-righteous snit. It is self-aggrandising in the extreme, and helps no one.

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.


I once read a headline (7.33 / 3)
"Plane carrying 200 cartwheels"  it took me half a block to figure that one out.  What the hell is a cartwheel?

My will is easy to decide, for I have nothing to divide. My kin won't need to fuss and moan Moss don't cling to a rolling stone. -- Joe Hill,

[ Parent ]
You don't know what a cartwheel is, slick? (6.00 / 1)
A "cartwheel" is... how do I describe this?... is when you jump sideways onto your hands and then flip back onto your feet... if you get me.

{I don't find myself doing a whole lot of them, these days, btw.}

So, when I see:

"Plane carrying 200 cartwheels"

I immediately think of an aeroplane filled with passengers doing cartwheels.

And, yeah, Maryscott is right.

When I first saw the title of this diary, I thought, "Holy shit!  The Fort Hood Murderer Jihadi-guy is dead??!!"

Photobucket


Lord of the Karmafishes


[ Parent ]
I did too (4.00 / 1)
My first thought was about the three names like Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Leon Ruby.  Always three fucking names, James Earl Ray, John Wilkes Booth..........on and on.

Surfing the Apocalypse-So you don't have to!

[ Parent ]
And, of course (7.00 / 3)
Last Horse Man.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
I'm with you, Karma (8.00 / 1)
When i saw that headline (in the post above), i thought it must have something to do with setting some type of Guinness record:  "most cartwheels done in X minutes on a flying aeroplane."

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
Agree, Maryscott (4.00 / 1)
I thought the same thing at first.

Your second point is similar to one i recently made to vox humana!  So maybe i will NOT promise to purchase a bunch of T-shirts from you if they are emblazoned with the motto:  "Rage, rage against the lying."  Maybe, "Skip the self-aggrandizing rage agaonst lying, and work to bring truth into the world."

Or, old style, "It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness."

I say this as one with an absolute tic when it comes to cursing darkness.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.


[ Parent ]
I enjoyed the adult discussions of the war crimes topic found at (0.00 / 0)
http://www.eurotrib.com/story/...

and the comments by bobjonez here:

http://seminal.firedoglake.com...

I understand myleftwing doesn't do that sort of thing. I provided this news as important news, that was my main motivation for posting it here. Use it when the righties speculate on Hasan's motives and call for fascist measures to be taken to combat the threat posed by 'crazed Muslims'.

I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton


[ Parent ]


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